Interfectum
Member
Courier controls, map pinging, town portal scrolls, 3+ active items in your inventory, inability to watch fights as you are moving (fixed camera), Meepo, Nature's Prophet, etc, etc
It wouldn't work.
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Valve soft launches Source 2 with Dota 2 port, Dota 2 Xbox reticule found, L4D3 refs
- Thread starter ashecitism
- Start date
Courier controls, map pinging, town portal scrolls, 3+ active items in your inventory, inability to watch fights as you are moving (fixed camera), Meepo, Nature's Prophet, etc, etc
It wouldn't work.
Gipsy Danger
Member
So you have a fixed camera angle on your hero? Definitely wouldn't work.
What you're describing is a nice idea for console MOBAs in general, but it wouldn't work well for Dota because there are way too many skills and items that need actual ground targeting with a mouse cursor and not just aiming in a single direction relative to your hero.
GregLombardi
Member
Yeah honestly, I DO believe it could be done, but your last statement....that's exactly why. I think they actually have to redesign the entire game.
Gipsy Danger
Member
Nope
Interfectum
Member
No? The engine has some Xbox references. Could be anything (ie code from L4D3, internal testing, leftover shit from Source 1). The least likely scenario is Dota 2 for Xbox.
FloorEssence
Neo Member
For heroes with more than 4 spells? What about a full inventory of active items, that's 6 extra buttons alone. How would you play meepo? How would you use sunstrike across the map? How would you quickly look on the other side of the map and then return without a minimap. How do you target single target spells? Ground targetting? How about last hitting? How do you type item names in the shop, or were you planning on spending a lot of time just sitting in base awkwardly scrolling through the complex item menu rather than playing How do you control multiple units, multiple illusions.
The game is nothing like Diablo 3 which has no targetting and is all hack and slash, single unit with no need for a map or global abilities, micro etc etc. I could go on for hours listing every little inconvenience but it seems some people here haven't played before.
No. The reticule referenced in the title is just a relic from the X360 port of the Orange Box.
The problem is that an XBOX/PS4 controller has 16 buttons and two analog sticks. Dota requires 6 buttons for skills, 6 for items, then more for all of the following functions:
-Reselecting your hero
-cycling through units
-attack moving
-opening the shop
-pausing
-leveling up
-voice chat
-pinging
That's 20 at the very minimum, without getting into the issues of control groups and camera control. Then there also the issue of how to handle mouse based elements like selling items, fortifying, and buybacking if you're eschewing the pointer interface entirely. Porting Dota 2 to a regular controller would be impossible without fundamentally changing the game.
You don't control your unit alone in Dota, it's an RTS type of control, you need to select it because you may have more units than one.
You NEED to move around the map indipendently from your hero, move other units, do 2 things at once.
A MOBA with a controller can be made, it can even be BASED on Dota 2, but it won't be Dota 2.
In a lot of cases you have to instantly switch between your hero and a specific point in the map, not even around you, but in the whole map. Dota is balanced around these concepts, changing controls means having to rebalance everything and that balance is necessary for Dota to work because it is a competitive game, the moment you break this balance you have a shitty product, really.
It can be done, but it would be a lot of work and the resulting game wouldn't be what we play now.
Diablo 3 on console is not exactly the same as Diablo 3 on pc.
And Diablo is infinitely easier to port than Dota to begin with because of the camera being centeredd on the hero and the control being direct.
The fact that it wouldn't have cross platform play doesn't matter, because some heroes would be more unusable than others in a console enviroment, some strategies harder to counter.
Chen would need to be remade completely.
Didn't people say the same thing about FPS games back in the day? I remember thinking that an FPSs had to be played with Keyboard and Mouse, but fast-forward to 2014 and console versions of CoD and Battlefield sell like gangbusters. I still feel the PC is the superior control scheme, but I own and play these games on console. Who says Dota couldn't be a similar?
This might illicit a flame response, but how about Kinect?
Buttons + shoulders is 8 buttons thats 4 for abilities and 4 for items. As for courier you could use a button(start or select) which opens a circle menu which is used a lot in games for console. Using teleport would open whole screen sized map which you click on.
As for fixed camera yeah, probably have to live with that. Or, you could just for example press the right analog to toggle fixed/not fixed camera. When its not fixed you can move it around and hero will always be looking in the center of the view.
Meepo, well there I can't think of anything thats remotetly usable way to do it.
Interfectum
Member
A "MOBA" is possible on a controller. Dota 2 is impossible on a controller without some major changes which would no longer make it "Dota 2."
Gipsy Danger
Member
I feel like this has already been explained. It would be impossible to have Dota 2, as it is now, play well on a console without sacrificing a lot of what makes the game great. It just would not work.
Interfectum
Member
You can have 6 active items. Many heroes have over 4 abilities. And lots of heroes like Meepo require control of multiple units. Not to mention items like the Necronomicon.
TheHollowNight
Member
This thread has deteriorated from Source 2 engine tools/editor conversation to 'is Dota 2 coming to XBO y/n'
I've never used the Xbox One Kinect, so I can't really comment on that. Mouse action would probably work better, but then you would either have to use a regular controller with one hand for skills or would have to manually click on them on screen. Not to mention how tired your arms would get after 40 straight minutes.
MrCunningham
Member
Yeah, there's a reason why Valve released this stealthly. Pretty interesting though, I wonder if there are any noticable performance incrases using Source 2?
I am aware, just giving you reasons why it could work. Ofc the game will require changes, for example on heroes with 6 abilities right now. But I do not think it needs complete overhaul which is something I feel people are saying would need to be done. How many has 6 items that needs to be in usable state all the time?
If MS wants a PC-moba on its console they should maybe try to get Smite, i think that would make more sense on console.
Dota2 wouldnt just work. Even Blizzards new Moba would be hard. You can make a moba on console but that moba should be designed for consoles from the start.
Dota2 wouldnt just work. Even Blizzards new Moba would be hard. You can make a moba on console but that moba should be designed for consoles from the start.
FloorEssence
Neo Member
Yet put Quake on console and see how well played that would be.. better than Dota yes but CoD is designed for console in mind and FPS games had to be dumbed down for console.
Nevertheless how would it even be done? It's essentially an RTS game with more keys to push. It would have to be extremely dumbed down, to the point where it's not even Dota anymore and would be incredibly inferior to the PC version. I don't think graphics really matter all that much when comparing console/PC versions, but if the game is completely stripped of it's elements removing all depth and ultimately enjoyment I can't see why anyone would actually want the game on console. I think people are just buying into the hype that it's the biggest game on steam but haven't actually played before.
Interfectum
Member
One of many examples: Two kinds of wards, mana boots, dust of disappearance, town portal, sheep stick = 6 active items
It would need a complete overhaul and Dota 2's balance would be completely upset, thus requiring a whole new balance team to keep the game competitive. At that point just make a new MOBA.
Valve have already stated that Dota 2 does not work well with the Steam controller.
Dota 2 won't be coming to consoles, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dota TV was.
I don't play Dota 2, but while I don't believe in the game on consoles, I consider the possibility of adding controller support for PC. You guys say it would be very hard (or impossible) to implement. Could it work by holding A, B, X or Y, a small menu shows up, you use the analog sticker to select an action/item and it executes? To be clear, I wouldn't be interested and I'm sure you guys will think "why add controller support?", but I just wonder if that's why they added the reticule.
You can't play the game with a controller. You would be at an insurmountable disadvantage.
You can't have controller support on the PC version. It's too fast and needs certain timing that a controller can't do. Players lose their shit enough already without being put into games with people on a handicap. It would be like adding controller support to Starcraft 2.
Phrozenflame500
Member
Shit that's pretty huge, this pretty much confirms something big's happening soon
.
™
many heroes have more than 4 abilities, also how do you do items?
On a PC, sure. If they went through a developed a decent control scheme and had it out on a console, everyone would be on the same playing field. It could be done it's just a matter of is Valve really willing to rebuild control schemes specific to a console or would they be better off doing a new game entirely?
ashecitism
Member
Contacted Besada, since Nirolak isn't online atm. Hopefully this gets sorted.
With the same old arguments of "FPS made the switch over so Dota can as well!"
I just started getting into Smite (and MOBA in gneral) and agree with this, would be great on a XB1 or PS4
what gets sorted? It's a discussion about Valve's new games, engine and tools if this means anything for the console. Nobody is trolling, it's actually quite informative.
ashecitism
Member
This thread is about Source 2 and not if Dota is coming to Xbox it or how it could translate to a controller.
If you think it wouldn't need to be completely redone, you probably haven't thought this through.
The mouse and keyboard controls are integral part of the balancing effort for all the active items and skills, for the size of the maps, for the cooldowns and the channeling times.
Nature prophet being able to instantly move THEN teleport on the other side of the map is not something you can do on controller because you can't move around the map as fast. Blinking and instantly doing an aimed spell would be hard as shit. Being able to do complex commands instantly zipping around the screen is integral for a number of heroes (Storm Spirit).
Chen, Enchantress, Meepo would be unusable (and helm of the dominator would lose its purpose).
Illusion heroes would have less control over their shit, and this includes manta users.
Items that require you to aim at specific targets would have their efficacy reduced because of the controllers being slower than a mouse, thus buffing some heroes with instant reaction spells (like leap) or bkb against shit like blink hex and the like.
Hell, just think how awkward it would be to last hit and deny with a controller.
Specific mechanics and heroes would be impacted differently by the control changes, thus destroying the pretty damn complex balance of the game.
I repeat, it is possible to make a MOBA on consoles that is somewhat closer to PC mobas, but it won't be a direct Dota port, it'd be incredibly different and it would have to be completely rebalanced.
But yeah, we are kind of dragging this whole thing out of topic.
TheHollowNight
Member
Yeah, it doesn't help when that thread title info is straight up accidentally misleading
Well yeah, and they are still right
I'm sure you can make DOTA work on a gamepad. Maybe you can even make it fun. But I'm equally sure you can't make it competitive.
ashecitism
Member
Yeah, it doesn't help when that thread title info is straight up accidentally misleading
hey, Nirolak edited that part in
Have to agree it's a bit off putting.
Started nice, fast forward to end and it's basically irrelevant noise. I would much prefer to be reading all the little tidbits people have discovered whilst poking around in the Source 2 stuff.
I'm particularly eager for L4D3 information too.
alexandros
Banned
Aww yeah, Valve getting ready to drop bombs.
TheSinkingKnight
Member
What kind of L4D3 references did they find?
blame whoever changed the thread title then.
If you just want to treat it like the comment section at the bottom of a news post then that's fine. There's no discussion to be had so I won't bother.
TheHollowNight
Member
hey, Nirolak edited that part in
I know I know, it's nobodies fault! (except Nirolak's
) But what it's meant is that we've gone down the slippery slope into 'can PC MOBAs work on consoles'. Which in of itself is a legitimate discussion, but sorrtttaa getting further off the beaten track of why this update is exciting.they would simply have to remove enough mechanics, items, and heroes that it would be a different and much simpler game, plus they'd have to entirely rebalance it around the remaining parts.
they could make a console dota game, sure. it wouldn't be dota 2.
Interfectum
Member
I think the discussion is can Dota 2 work on controller. The answer to that is no. If the discussion was could a MOBA work on a controller, then the answer would be yes as we've already had an example on consoles.