Support NeoGAF

[eso76]

The ps4 being slightly less powerful than 720 would actually damage Microsoft, since third party games would be developed for the lowest common denominator
While first party exclusives on ps4 could still look amazing thanks to the talents at naughty dog and polyphony etc.
Now, if it's a lot less powerful, on the other hand...but I don't see that happening.

 

[Cake Boss]

The ps4 being slightly less powerful than 720 would actually damage Microsoft, since third party games would be developed for the lowest common denominator
While first party exclusives on ps4 could still look amazing thanks to the talents at naughty dog and polyphony etc.
Now, if it's a lot less powerful, on the other hand...but I don't see that happening.

No they will develop to whichever is the easiest to develop for, just like the 360, the less resources to get the best out of the system the better.

 

[leroidys]

Those same rumors also state that several cores on the next Xbox are going to be dedicated for OS level functions and that the GPU is going to be clocked much lower than the PS4's. I think it'll likely be pretty much a wash in terms of power. I do think there is some truth to the rumors that Durango is turning out to be more powerful than expected. It seems like Sony may be scrambling to up their specs, whether or not it's to catch up or gain a lead is anyone's guess.


He's been explained that several times and keeps arguing.

Well clock speed does help though, especially if you don't have good software engineering. Obviously even slight changes in hardware (bigger cache, more bandwidth, etc.) can give nonlinear benefits in performance, but if you aren't using it efficiently, the clock speed would be missed.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Make a 'premium' SKU then

Or they could just keep selling the ps3 as well to keep costs down...

 

[eso76]

No they will develop to whichever is the easiest to develop for, just like the 360, the less resources to get the best out of the system the better.

I'm not sure, with games needing to be ported to every console to be profitable I don't see devs fully taking advantage of the more powerful, with features they know they won't be able to port to other systems

 

[systemfehler]

I'm not sure, with games needing to be ported to every console to be profitable I don't see devs fully taking advantage of the more powerful, with features they know they won't be able to port to other systems

It will be easier to develop for the more powerfull console (assuming that the power doesn't come from some very complex and new technology/design/architecture) because you don't need to optimize (aliasing, fps, tearing, ...) as much as you might have to on a weaker plattform. So the lead plattform will most likely get always the better version - and the other console gets whatever manpower is available to have a balanced cost/earnings ratio.

As long as time and money are so important for third party developers it is easy to just use "BubbleSort" on the powerfull PC because you get the same results with less "optimizing" and work. If you don't have a powerfull PC you either need to step up your game (QuickSort...) or live with some drawbacks (time). Same goes in the console industry the weaker console will get a port aswell but with drawbacks unless the devloper does realy care.

 

[Nilaul]

I'm not sure, with games needing to be ported to every console to be profitable I don't see devs fully taking advantage of the more powerful, with features they know they won't be able to port to other systems

If WiiU and "Playstation 4th Gen" are similar level, then games will be developed for the lesser. Most 3rd parties will ignore the extra power of "Xbox 3rd Gen". So what we get is the xbox behind held back by the other two consoles, and the full power of the xbox console would only be shown in 1st party exclusives.

But we also could then get games being coded on PC qnd Xbox 3 due to similarities.

 

[i-Lo]

I'm not sure, with games needing to be ported to every console to be profitable I don't see devs fully taking advantage of the more powerful, with features they know they won't be able to port to other systems

Extra hardware performance need not come at the expense of ease of programming.

And no, at the end of the day, people would likely go for the platform that provides better performance for the same price. In a console environment it's tickle down and not up. Xbox 360 and PS3 are very similar in performance but third party devs had problems with PS3 and to this day we keep seeing inferior ports compared to 360, so in effect your supposition that next gen more power will hurt MS is moot.

 

[RedSwirl]

Typically it's always been just the console with the biggest market for publshers' games. It just so happens that more of then than not this has been the lowest common denominator in terms of hardware.

Look at the PS2 gen. The PS2 was reportedly the hardest console for which to develop games, but become the lowest common denominator for multiplatform games.l

 

[Melchiah]

Strangely I can't remember the last time I bought a used game I think it was Destruction Derby for the PS1 when I was a kid I got it from a Pawn Shop so Anti Used games wouldn't be a thing for me.

Same here, I haven't bought used games since the PS1 days, since I left the school, and I'm not about to start. So any anti-used game stance means nothing to me.

 

[StevieP]

ITT, people would rather have Sony go bankrupt with a huge loss leader approach than design a decent (and powerful) system that won't break your bank or theirs. Don't worry people, it's still going to have some juice. Relax!

If you want more on the other one, try to decode what Proelite has said. Though I believe some of it has been purposeful obfuscation.

 

[Sid]

Or they could just keep selling the ps3 as well to keep costs down...

Ofc they'll do that i was referring to a premium sku having b/c.

 

[seattle6418]

Wow, i just left some posts to read after work and now they are all gone.

Damage control is shit. Sony should know better.

You can't hide anything on the internet these days and going all ninja on it just pretty much confirms that Jeff and the guys were getting close to the facts.

I'glad now i know for sure what to expect from Orbis. It was rumors for me, but after this Sony Ninja raid it's pretty much all truth.

Also, am i late to the party or this is also news for you guys?

http://orbis.scedev.net/

(some more confirmation that they are indee using this name).

 

[eso76]

Extra hardware performance need not come at the expense of ease of programming.

And no, at the end of the day, people would likely go for the platform that provides better performance for the same price. In a console environment it's tickle down and not up. Xbox 360 and PS3 are very similar in performance but third party devs had problems with PS3 and to this day we keep seeing inferior ports compared to 360, so in effect your supposition that next gen more power will hurt MS is moot.

I insist, i think it's not.
And it's the other way round: more power won't hurt MS, it just won't give them much of an advantage. It's the other (2) system(s) turning out much less powerful that might be a limiting factor.

I think devs would rather work on less detailed, less demanding -in terms of development costs- assets, and just bump resolution, aa, fps or shaders on the more powerful system.
This is what's currently happening with PC games, they mostly give you a 'prettier current gen' experience despite the hardware being fully next gen, so to speak.
Having to develop a game so that it can be scaled down to run on less powerful hardware is a huge constraint and it might affect games' core structure itself, instead of just graphics, if the difference in CPU and ram is significant.
Which I don't think is going to be the case, however.

Extra hardware performance need not come at the expense of ease of programming.

And no, at the end of the day, people would likely go for the platform that provides better performance for the same price.

Yes, but that's not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is, if next gen gives you 3 systems, with one being considerably more powerful than the other 2, than its power is never going to be used to its full potential except from the few exclusives.
I'm not saying devs will rather work on ps4 assuming it's easier to develop for because it's less powerful (like you said, the opposite is more likely to happen). I'm saying they will, however, have to develop games with its (hypothetical) limitations in mind, since their game will need to run on that too.

 

[Strike]

Also, am i late to the party or this is also news for you guys?

http://orbis.scedev.net/

(some more confirmation that they are indee using this name).

Old.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Wow, i just left some posts to read after work and now they are all gone.

Damage control is shit. Sony should know better.

You can't hide anything on the internet these days and going all ninja on it just pretty much confirms that Jeff and the guys were getting close to the facts.

I'glad now i know for sure what to expect from Orbis. It was rumors for me, but after this Sony Ninja raid it's pretty much all truth.

Also, am i late to the party or this is also news for you guys?

http://orbis.scedev.net/

(some more confirmation that they are indee using this name).

Are you suggesting Sony contacted admin and said please remove these posts? I really doubt it.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Nice find

http://weinerpoop.scedev.net/

just to be sure it gives a different result.

 

[phosphor112]

Are you suggesting Sony contacted admin and said please remove these posts? I really doubt it.

...why? If they contain trade secrets, why wouldn't they?

 

[bigboss370]

i'm amazed some people actually think PS4 and WiiU will be on a similar level. they might as well be re-releasing ps3 with a name change if that was the case.

 

[seattle6418]

Nice find

http://weinerpoop.scedev.net/

just to be sure it gives a different result.

That's ok, now i know it's old. I just didn't remembered reading anything on that here. That's why i asked.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

...why? If they contain trade secrets, why wouldn't they?

I just think if that was happening the thread would just be locked. All I have seen is speculating in this thread.

 

[ekim]

That's ok, now i know it's old. I just didn't remembered reading anything on that here. That's why i asked.

Which posts were deleted?

----

I don't think we'll see the same amount of 3rd party games on ps4/nextbox like this gen - but I hope so. And I think if both consoles share the same feature set at different performance levels, scaling would be easy. The inferior port would get a decreased resolution and details. Like you would do on your pc when changing video settings.

 

[i-Lo]

I insist, i think it's not.
And it's the other way round: more power won't hurt MS, it just won't give them much of an advantage. It's the other (2) system(s) turning out much less powerful that might be a limiting factor.

I think devs would rather work on less detailed, less demanding -in terms of development costs- assets, and just bump resolution, aa, fps or shaders on the more powerful system.
This is what's currently happening with PC games, they mostly give you a 'prettier current gen' experience despite the hardware being fully next gen, so to speak.
Having to develop a game so that it can be scaled down to run on less powerful hardware is a huge constraint and it might affect games' core structure itself, instead of just graphics, if the difference in CPU and ram is significant.
Which I don't think is going to be the case, however.

You should know:

• Games engines are now moving forward with the anticipation that next gen hardware will be more powerful. The hardware market has moved farther ahead in the last 7 years and the market (Sony and MS) is expecting the software to catch up. So no, not all big budget developers are doing what you think they would like to do.
• Original assets are generally much higher resolution and detailed before they are watered down during optimization to fit in the console's memory. This applies to almost 3D game developer.
• Pursuant to point 2, it takes much more effort to optimize by trying fit everything into the existing memory from the much higher quality original assets and trying come up solutions for problems that seem to transcend the HW limit. It then becomes a matter clever illusions to achieve the impossible. Increasing the limit gives developers that much more room to breathe and to work with. The idea with next gen HW is to do certain things in real time that used to be done by pre baked which takes more time and therefore more money.

 

[seattle6418]

You should know:

• Games engines are now moving forward with the anticipation that next gen hardware will be more powerful. The hardware market has moved farther ahead in the last 7 years and the market (Sony and MS) is expecting the software to catch up. So no, not all big budget developers are doing what you think they would like to do.
• Original assets are generally much higher resolution and detailed before they are watered down during optimization to fit in the console's memory. This applies to almost 3D game developer.
• Pursuant to point 2, it takes much more effort to optimize by trying fit everything into the existing memory from the much higher quality original assets and trying come up solutions for problems that seem to transcend the HW limit. It then becomes a matter clever illusions to achieve the impossible. Increasing the limit gives developers that much more room to breathe and to work with. The idea with next gen HW is to do certain things in real time that used to be done by pre baked which takes more time and therefore more money.

Reminds me of Polyphony Digital. PS3 was going to be the fucking beast that was going to render everything, but in the end they needed MOAR POWA!

Like, their assets were too good for PS3 according to Yamauchi. They might like the PS4 if (using a simplification) they can just drag and drop things because the machine can easily handle.

Until raytracing and stuff, i think that's the best devs can hope for.

 

[ekim]

I don't think that much more effort has to be put into making games. Assets are usually created with x times higher polygon count than the actual used and most lightning improvements are generic effects. You will notice next gen by a better IQ(higher resolution and better frame rates/AA) and overall fidelity (which includes more stuff being rendered in the distance).

 

[KageMaru]

Considering some posts in this thread, I can see meltdowns even if Durango is a little bit more powerful. Can't wait for next year ;p

That's the great thing about these rumors. you can pretty much cherry pick what you want and come to your own conclusions despite knowing nothing.

That's what this thread has been about for a while now. Seems like quite a few have their mind made up already.

...why? If they contain trade secrets, why wouldn't they?

I would think the whole thread would be deleted and Gaf would receive another C&D order not to talk about it if this were the case.

 

[i-Lo]

Reminds me of Polyphony Digital. PS3 was going to be the fucking beast that was going to render everything, but in the end they needed MOAR POWA!

Like, their assets were too good for PS3 according to Yamauchi. They might like the PS4 if (using a simplification) they can just drag and drop things because the machine can easily handle.

Until raytracing and stuff, i think that's the best devs can hope for.

Look at this from GT5 Spec 2.0 Intro.

And this is from Gameplay and this from Replay.

In terms of polygon, it looks like we're almost there (for cars at least) and like you said it's all about the lighting and might I add, IQ, primarily, AA (even in shadows). Look at the intro and then look the gameplay and you'll see how big of a factor AA can become. And even compared to replay, the intro looks organic primarily because of better lighting. Let us also not forget the low quality alpha texturing that causes pixelation during rain and is primarily down to HW.

I don't think that much more effort has to be put into making games. Assets are usually created with x times higher polygon count than the actual used and most lightning improvements are generic effects. You will notice next gen by a better IQ(higher resolution and better frame rates/AA) and overall fidelity (which includes more stuff being rendered in the distance).

I am currently playing Halo 4 and there is this mission called Reclaimer where you travel in a gargantuan vehicle in a place similar to the Grand Canyon. I looked the distant mountains and felt weird. So I looked through the scope and sure enough, as beautiful as they are at normal distance they couldn't hide the fact that it's 2D painting/picture. And zooming in to see them was a big mistake which destroys the illusion when pixelation adorns your screen. These are the ways that devs had to overcome limits when they decided to push fidelity for other aspects to the max.

 

[piteru]

If the rumours are true then sony deserves to crash and burn. They will have pissed over kutaragi's legacy for good

I hope this is a joke post.
I'm a nintendo fan and I don't want Sony NEVER out of the industry.
I believe that Sony of course will release a graphical beast, but I also want them to make decisions right in order not to have them out of the industry even if it means a not- so beasty machine. If you want sony to crash and burn, you should do them a favor and stop playing vg.

 

[Clear]

The way I see it, whichever out of the next Playstation or XBox line is cheapest, is going to be the sales winner.

Power is mostly irrelevant to sales performance; it only matters if there are things one platform is uniquely capable of compared to its competition. And by that I'm not talking about single spotlighted-features (Kinect vs Move implementation), I'm talking about a situation where doing something comparable in terms of scope/complexity is impossible.

This situation is of course extremely unlikely in the first place though because of simple commercial reality:

Developing for a single platform is more risky than developing for two or more unless that single-platform has a massive install-base advantage.

If you are making an expensive game it doesn't make sense to limit your potential target audience; and if you are selling multiple versions *parity* is the goal because you don't want one version to make the other look bad (because that hurts your brand) as well as the obvious cost-maximization value of sharing as much code and assets as possible.

 

[Graphics Horse]

That's ok, now i know it's old. I just didn't remembered reading anything on that here. That's why i asked.

I hadn't seen it either, at least, I don't remember. So it's news to me, strange they haven't hidden it away like Nintendo did.

 

[Biggzy]

i'm amazed some people actually think PS4 and WiiU will be on a similar level. they might as well be re-releasing ps3 with a name change if that was the case.

Like what Nintendo did with the Wii.

 

[StevieP]

Like what Nintendo did with the Wii.

No. The PS4 is going to smoke the PS3 in *every* metric (except obviously CPU flops lol).
What it won't be is at a "high end gaming PC" level as many in this thread beg and plead it to be.

It won't be a Wii U either, though.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

No. The PS4 is going to smoke the PS3 in *every* metric (except obviously CPU flops lol).
What it won't be is at a "high end gaming PC" level as many in this thread beg and plead it to be.

It won't be a Wii U either, though.

My expectation are in check so i know it will be a good jump but no where near PC .
Any body that expect PS4 to get near those 400 plus watts monsters living in dream land .
Still i wonder what people consider to be a high end gaming PC right now.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Why is everyone being so obtuse about proelite and other posters? And deleted posts? What is going on?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

i'm amazed some people actually think PS4 and WiiU will be on a similar level. they might as well be re-releasing ps3 with a name change if that was the case.

As yosp would say: "let them dream"

 

[RaijinFY]

Even the lowest end of today's GPU would offer more performance than the current console GPU.

 

[seattle6418]

Even the lowest end of today's GPU would offer more performance than the current console GPU.

There's something i don't remember about current gen transition: were the high end PC's back in 2005 more powerfull then what we got on PS360?

Right now i'm almost getting caught in the mess and thinking that if the systems don't offer at least 2.5 TFLOPS they are disappointing.

I read the rumors of the PS4 being at 1.8 TFLOPS with some internal discussions on Sony if they go for profit now (Hirai and some guys) or if they go full power (mostly devs) and i almost went with the crowd saying that it needs more because we are hardcore bitches that are never satisfied.

I know you can't compare processing power between consoles and PCs like this, but, it gives a rough estimate, so that's why i ask:

Was it like this in 2005? PC could already outperform PS360 when they launched or did we get balls to the wall performance?

Is this why we are so worried that next gen systems will take the Nintendo route and go low on power?

In my 30 years of life following games since i was a kid i was never disappointed with the leap in generations... it's just something that needs to happen. Reading too much makes you think we will only see marginal upgrades, but i'm still holding out hope that this is not the case and by E3 next year we will be blown away like always.

 

[Ashes]

It looks like you're going to get x10 jump+, so I'm not too concerned with performance right now.

I wish sony would fix up their ui. I love the x media bar, but it's so convoluted now. They should have three icons:


| Games | Media | PSN |


And that's it.

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

Why should'nt people freak out over what we are hearing?

No Backwards Compatibility and an underpowered sony console judging by the rumours. Absolutely ridiculous from a company built and propagated by hardware engineers. Meanwhile MS the software company amongst the big three is going all out on it's hardware specs and even launching one year ahead of the underpowered ps4. And this ps4 is to last as what? Till 2020?

If the rumours are true then sony deserves to crash and burn. They will have pissed over kutaragi's legacy for good

What rumors? I´m not up to date.

Could someone explain it. And what`s up with disappearing posts? What`s going on?

 

[Proxy]

What rumors? I´m not up to date.

Could someone explain it. And what`s up with disappearing posts? What`s going on?

The disappearing posts were from a thread back in April that someone just noticed now.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

The disappearing posts were from a thread back in April that someone just noticed now.

What disappearing posts? That's very odd

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I wish sony would fix up their ui. I love the x media bar, but it's so convoluted now. They should have three icons:


| Games | Media | PSN |


And that's it.

They should make it modifiable horizontally, and have button shortcuts. Then it'd be perfect.

 

[eso76]

You should know:

And I do.
Yet, it's not like most PC versions have much better quality models, is it ? Textures, maybe, but it's not only about assets. It's the way games are built itself.
Having one powerful console and two significantly less powerful ones next gen, would mean multiplatform titles (vast majority of a console's library, like 90% or higher these days) only taking advantage of said power in a marginal way. They would be held back.
Again though, I don't think there's going to be a significant enough difference for this to happen

 

[Reiko]

And I do.
Yet, it's not like most PC versions have much better quality models, is it ? Textures, maybe, but it's not only about assets. It's the way games are built itself.
Having one powerful console and two significantly less powerful ones next gen, would mean multiplatform titles (vast majority of a console's library, like 90% or higher these days) only taking advantage of said power in a marginal way. They would be held back.
Again though, I don't think there's going to be a significant enough difference for this to happen

Sometimes. But then you can have developers like Ubisoft last gen who created Chaos Theory and ported down.

 

[leroidys]

It looks like you're going to get x10 jump+, so I'm not too concerned with performance right now.

I wish sony would fix up their ui. I love the x media bar, but it's so convoluted now. They should have three icons:


| Games | Media | PSN |


And that's it.

I love xmb, but it just does not work as is for sorting content. Having any more than 5 games on your hd and it starts to become a huge clusterfuck, let alone the 30+ I keep on there.

I love it for the system settings type stuff though. It's so easy to figure out how to do something that would normally be buried in layers and layers of menus.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

I just hope PS4 is close enough in power to durango so 3rd party ports will be acceptable (if ps4 is the weaker one that is.) I'd like to go Sony only when it comes to fullhd twins cause I really can't start paying for that shit Gold and I really need servicable 3rd party games. Ps3 versions while mostly acceptible have some pretty bad examples tho I suppose next gen has more similar tech so porting shouldnt be as bad. Of course I can hope for the miracle of MS letting online play be free :lol.

But as some are saying theres no need to "panic" over rumors. I shall wait and see how things turn out.

 

[jaosobno]

I honestly don't think that there is any logical reason that PS4 has to be more powerful than X720. PS1 was weaker than N64, PS2 was weaker than Xbox and both Playstations obliterated competition. Enter PS3 (which was more powerful than X360) and Sony loses a huge market share. Logically you could say that Sony was performing much better with a weaker console than with a stronger one.

Sony spoiled us with PS3, specially when it came to exclusives, however, PS3 was an expensive experiment in technology that Sony is not likely to repeat in next generation.

However, I have to say that I'm not pleased to hear that X720 is significantly more powerful than PS4 (I believe someone mentioned 30% difference, correct me if I'm wrong). This could very well translate into PS4 not being able to hold 1080p resolution for a longer period and could lead into another sub(Full)HD era, this time perhaps exclusively on PS4. Also, reports of developers once again leading on Durango could lead into another era of substandard ports (aka Call of Duty).

If (and it's a big IF) this turns out to be true, I will seriously question my decision of buying PS4. The only problem I have with owning Microsoft's console is the fact that my country is not officially supported on Xbox Live so that would lead to once again using various VPN solutions for a simple demo or DLC content purchase (this was the reason why I switched from X360 to PS3) combined with a fake UK account.

Sony on the other hand made an effort to bring PSN Store to my country, which is quite incredible considering that I live in Croatia where there is about 100 000+ PS3s (a very small number when compared to other countries). Microsoft on the other hand doesn't give a shit about my country citing "piracy reasons" for Live not being officially available. However, Live is available, for example, in Poland which boasts even higher piracy rate so more truthful response from Microsoft would be "you are too small for us to give a fuck".

Sorry for this small offtopic, back to subject. I would really like to hear some better news regarding improvement in PS4 hardware. I'm not sure pure APU design will cut it (even if 4xAPU via crossbar switch is used like Jeff suggested). If however Jeff's prediction does come true, and if GPU part of the APU matches for example A10 (5800) the whole system could stand at 4x384 shaders (1536 total) which would make graphical part (or at least unified shaders part) on par with Radeon 8850 which boasts almost 3.0 TFLOPS (realistically I will be happy if they match 2.5 TFLOPS). Let's hope that Sony beefs up final hardware to be on par with Durango or at least make difference in power no bigger than 5-10% (presuming of course that Durango being more powerful rumor is true).

 

[Melchiah]

I love xmb, but it just does not work as is for sorting content. Having any more than 5 games on your hd and it starts to become a huge clusterfuck, let alone the 30+ I keep on there.

You do realize you can create folders, and sort the games as you wish? I've created different folders for PS+ retail games, PS+ games, downloaded games, the most played downloaded games, PS1/2 games, and demos. I've got 75 games (+demos) on the HDD, and browsing through them this way is far from inconvenient.

 

[hodgy100]

No one knows the actual specs so there is no need to worry or be disappointed
its more likely that both will be on par with one being better at certain things than the other and visa versa. just like this gen

No. The PS4 is going to smoke the PS3 in *every* metric (except obviously CPU flops lol).
What it won't be is at a "high end gaming PC" level as many in this thread beg and plead it to be.

It won't be a Wii U either, though.

if the rumoured cpu is correct even it will smoke the PS3's cell, the cell is a 6 year old CPU now.

 

[Router]

I just hope PS4 is close enough in power to durango so 3rd party ports will be acceptable (if ps4 is the weaker one that is.) I'd like to go Sony only when it comes to fullhd twins cause I really can't start paying for that shit Gold and I really need servicable 3rd party games. Ps3 versions while mostly acceptible have some pretty bad examples tho I suppose next gen has more similar tech so porting shouldnt be as bad. Of course I can hope for the miracle of MS letting online play be free :lol.

But as some are saying theres no need to "panic" over rumors. I shall wait and see how things turn out.

Thats not really about the power but the complexities of programming. I'm sure the PS4 will be much easier than the PS3 but will it be as easy as the next xbox? Probably not.