Nobody knows it, even if he is wrong at least is funny to read. I prefer give him the benefit of the doubt.
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
Nobody knows it, even if he is wrong at least is funny to read. I prefer give him the benefit of the doubt.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Quoting for the new page. Can anyone make any sense of it?
Baki
Member
Wow, seems like major info! We need a new thread stat! Get more attention on this article so we can get j-GAF to translate this ASAP!
Here is link to Google web translate
http://translate.google.com/transla...cs/column/kaigai/20121225_580059.html&act=url
Looks like it is a breakdown of all the current rumors, descriptions of several nextgen features [gaikai] and look at the possible architectures that will be used in PS4 APU [with discussion about 28nm foundry capabilities].
http://translate.google.com/transla...cs/column/kaigai/20121225_580059.html&act=url
Looks like it is a breakdown of all the current rumors, descriptions of several nextgen features [gaikai] and look at the possible architectures that will be used in PS4 APU [with discussion about 28nm foundry capabilities].
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
Nothing we already didn't know.
Brad Grenz
Member
It seems to imply that there are capacity problems at both Global Foundries and TMSC on the 28nm node. It also seems to imply that Global Foundries would be able to produce APU chips with Steamroller CPU cores, but if they have to go TMSC they will have to step down to Jaguar cores...
Steamroller (along with an 800mhz GCN GPU that has 18CU and is sort of a "Pitcairn lite") was the original target. There has been a lot more talk of Jaguar recently, so I'd wager a guess that the decision has already been made. It will be customized silicon in either case, though. I don't think it's going to be the same as a stock A10 or anything like that. You could put more Jaguar cores in a restricted thermal setting than you could the beefier Steamroller cores too.
Everything on 28nm, will use a GCN2 chip, may go for Steamroller cores if it becomes available in time, if not, Jaguar it is... Could be some more interesting information, but I just skimmed through it since I gotta study and stuff.
Beaten...
I've seen PCWatchImpress quoted before? Who are their sources usually? It seems pretty damn reliable though.
Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
It needs to be January already, so we can know the near final specs. Everyone is so hungry for real info.
Seems to concretely rule out 20nm, as that will be appearing in Q1 2014.
Using new, extremely low-capacity with yield issues nodes on a console that's meant to be mass manufactured in great quantities (with at least some level of reliability) was always going to be ruled out.
Edit, for Heavy and Majinew: I guess it's not impossible, but it would be pretty short-sighted of any company to do so.
Always.
Especially when the HOPE was that they would be ready for low-capicity with yield issues.
*I don't have any inside information to go on. Just decades of semiconductor manufacturing trends.
Steamroller with a solid GPU would be a really nice setup for a next gen system as long as the RAM is in place.
pharmboy044
Member
I really hope we hear something at CES but it looks like we probably won't hear anything until GDC.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
That would be really disappointing if they have to downgrade to Jaguar cores, no?
Everything on 28nm, will use a GCN2 chip, may go for Steamroller cores if it becomes available in time, if not, Jaguar it is... Could be some more interesting information, but I just skimmed through it since I gotta study and stuff.
Beaten...
Is there supposed to a significant performance upgrade going from Jag to Steamroller? As in could it be that the target theoretical performance between the two, when customised (up clocked Jag vs down Steam for example) wouldn't be very dissimilar? If not, then it seems uncomfortably nonchalant for them to hold the notion of, "oh yea, we'll take this one if it's ready otherwise we'll settle for this" given that games are being developed with a target hardware in mind. I would have to assume that the current games are being developed with the capabilities of Jag core in mind which would mean performance bonuses for second generation games if Steamroller does make it to PS4 instead.
The original spec sheet showed Steamroller cores w/the afformentioned "Pitcairn Lite", along with 2GB of GDDR5 (though the speculation at the time was that they would go 3 or 4GB if the ram capacities per chip panned out to be higher with enough time to launch). That said, wouldn't 'keeping up with the joneses' so-to-speak mean that Sony might also consider going to DDRx instead of GDDR5 as a unified pool? If there is any accuracy at all to this article, ram amounts suggest that they have (you're not getting 4gb or 8gb of any GDDR at the current moment)
Well, depends at how you look at it. Within a certain silicon budget and power envelope you can spend so much on CPU and so much on GPU. At about 3mm/core, 4 or 8 Jaguar variants clocked at around 1.6ghz would give you more space for more GPU cores, right?
i-Lo said:
As AMD's low power core, Jaguar's similar to Intel's Atom architecture or IBM's 47x. Steamroller would be equivalent to Intel's ix series (i.e. i5/i7). It's not a trivial performance gap.
So can it inferred that all this talk about delay could be due to which CPU Sony is going to place in the PS4? I wonder about how long of a delay it would be if Sony had to wait for Globalfoundaries' schedule to be open for Steamroller's production on a scale that could enable the PS4 to hit retail stores....?
What does this mean exactly?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Yeah. Like does it mean it will have for example digital tuners built in, or a display on the front with channel numbers?
Honestly I don't like the idea personally. I just want a kick ass game machine. I have a HTPC for all other media.
Ever consider picking up a console from your local cable company? Lol
3mm2 on a 28nm process? Wow and people talk about Espresso cores being small.
NOTE: I realise that Espresso is on a 45nm process, but even on 28nm they wouldn't be that small.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
this sounds awful. all these subscription based, set top box machine rumors make me cringe. it seems we're gonna have yet again another microsoft console totally focused on the US market. lovely.
Proelite
Member
Lots of SKUs and lots of payment options.
yurinka
Member
Why they need to put GDDR5? Does it offer a big difference for games? If they will put 4 or 8GB as the devkits rumor suggested there I'd say that the extra cost of choosing GDDR would be too much considering they don't want another $599 issue, and they aren't in a financial position to loose too much money per console sold. If there isn't a big difference I'd say they'll choose for something cheaper.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I don't fancy asking for a Virgin XBOX......
Graphics Horse
Member
I don't get it either, but they've always wanted a set top box and a cable subscription box looks like the only way to do it without looking like an overpriced Roku.
Sony should combine their console with a receiver to compete, make the back look like this.
If they can muscle in on the cable market and become the standard Virgin TiVo successor, you might not need to ask. Seems hard to imagine but I don't know what they're planning.
I assume he meant set-top box?
Graphics Horse
Member
yes, a cable one. Although set-top box is a bit of an anachronism now ( parachronism?) seeing as it's hard to balance things above modern sets.
google trans:
no idea what Aguneru offense means!
ShadowRunner
Member
aguneru: to tire of;  to lose interest in;  to be too much for one;  to find unmanageable;  to be beyond one's control;  to not know what to do with;
Yes.
Is that in response to the first question or the second?
I was answering the first question but yes to both, actually.
phosphor112
Banned
You have to have a cpu.
phosphor112
Banned
I've been into game design for years. Always used to wonder why HL1 would make me want to vomit every single organ out. It's because the default FOV was super low on PC. The more you know!
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Regardless of what a lot of Gaf thinks MS also having a subscription model might really be a good idea.
Regarding the PC Watch article, one thing puzzles me; am I correct in understanding the following:
Sony - less cores, more performance per core
Microsoft - more cores/threads (more parallelism) but less performance per core
I wish somebody could translate this properly, google translate makes it barely readable.
Sony - less cores, more performance per core
Microsoft - more cores/threads (more parallelism) but less performance per core
I wish somebody could translate this properly, google translate makes it barely readable.
Lots of skus = consumer confusion. Not sure it'd be wise to go subscription immediately, but who knows.
Setup box = cable compatible is too limited to the US market, and too expensive for those that don't need it. I wonder if they could re-push IPTV for cable companies? Most now offer broadband now, and it'd be much simpler for MS to offer TV as an IPTV service than building proper cable tuners etc in the box.
Setup box = cable compatible is too limited to the US market, and too expensive for those that don't need it. I wonder if they could re-push IPTV for cable companies? Most now offer broadband now, and it'd be much simpler for MS to offer TV as an IPTV service than building proper cable tuners etc in the box.
jeff_rigby
Banned
SteveP has it right although the Hiroshige article is speculation and while the conclusions are correct (went with Jaguar) the reasons suspect. I'm of the opinion that both went with Jaguar cores for power reasons early on and this is backed up by the recent Sony 2009 context switching GPU patent to save power as well as both supporting RVU and XTV.
Hiroshige and many here assume a high performance CPU and GPU package. GF is having problems with yields @28nm with high performance CPUs; GCN GPU CUs are easier to fab. So a move to Jaguar CPU and APU already being made at TSMC with those FAB databases transferred to GF. I've already gone over this with cites.
mistercteam on Semiaccurate found this PDF and page two has a Silicon Interposer with DDR memory made with interposer STACKED memory, CPU & GPU. IE a APU + Stacked DDR memory. Release date is Q3 2013 <grin>. A few pages back I cited Amkor as the company packaging the GF AMD APU. The date on the PDF is Oct 2011 and plans to use stacked memory were in place then with the Sony CTO (Jan 2012) and Sony lecture by SVP Technology platform (Sept 2011) both commenting on 300FPS and TSVs; needing high memory bandwidth available with wide IO memory.
This is a product intercept which means it's a planned product not speculation.
There are multiple cites supporting stacked DDR memory on interposer for PS4:
systemfehler
Member
All this tool talk sparked my intereset. Does anyone know what really is better or easier in the development process for MS? I heard the toolchain for Sony is quite fast but other than that I know nothing about documentation, tools (what would a special MS tool be?), Visual Studio can be used for either console, etc.
I imagine Naughty Dog sharing some tricks is more helpfull for actual development than anything else MS could offer in return.
I imagine Naughty Dog sharing some tricks is more helpfull for actual development than anything else MS could offer in return.
A bit off topic, but I have the same problem while playing Riddick which has an ultra wide FoV on console. It makes me nauseous after about 10-15 minutes of play sessions. I assume this thing goes both ways.
That totally depends on how many of them there are. I'd personally think tons of Jaguar cores would be a lot more interesting than 4 fat cores.
Microsoft's debugger and performance analysis integration for DirectX is fantastic on PC already, I can only imagine that it would be even better for their own hardware platform. I don't know whether Sony offers anything comparably well integrated and feature-rich.
iamshadowlark
Banned
PS EDGE is supposed to be amazing to work with.
dragonelite
Member
PIX you can use to debug and analyse directX stuff if im not mistaken.
I rather have a solid tool base then to ring up the platform top dog devs.
What sony does well is a core team called the ICE team and i believe microsoft game studio are also sharing stuff with each other and partners.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Just been browsing SemiAccurate forums. According to Charlie the PC Watch article is wrong about the chip foundry being full.
Why would they say it if it isn't true?
Why would they say it if it isn't true?
Wow, semiaccurate just got walled behind a malware warning webpage by google. Didn't see this issue before.
Can you go into details of what was said about Globalfoundaries?
