disastermouse
Banned
But other enthusiast press isn't like this. Car magazines and motorcycle magazines aren't forced to hush about product problems via threats of lost access.
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What happened to this Industry?
- Thread starter Stripper13
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Ninja Scooter
Member
The problem is that the media mostly sucks. The corporations control everything and most journalists are afraid of losing access (meaning free games and future Community Manager jobs, mostly).
It would be nice if we could get some actual investigative type journalism like you see in politics and other social issues, but I go back and forth with this. On the other hand, it's just video games, not politics. I then compare to other more comparable industries. Do you really have investigative media blowing the lid off of stuff in movies and music? Or is it mostly glorified PR like we see in games?
On the other hand, I wonder if the closeness of the media/corporations is the same in those industries. Are movie studios often poaching the most well known movie critics and writers to work in their marketing departments? Do ESPN journalists get hired away by sports teams to be scouts or assistant GMs?
I don't know what to think to be honest. I think the media is mostly worthless to me with a few exceptions, but I don't know if I can convince myself that that is a big deal.
It would be nice if we could get some actual investigative type journalism like you see in politics and other social issues, but I go back and forth with this. On the other hand, it's just video games, not politics. I then compare to other more comparable industries. Do you really have investigative media blowing the lid off of stuff in movies and music? Or is it mostly glorified PR like we see in games?
On the other hand, I wonder if the closeness of the media/corporations is the same in those industries. Are movie studios often poaching the most well known movie critics and writers to work in their marketing departments? Do ESPN journalists get hired away by sports teams to be scouts or assistant GMs?
I don't know what to think to be honest. I think the media is mostly worthless to me with a few exceptions, but I don't know if I can convince myself that that is a big deal.
Stripper13
Member
I have no idea about HD pricing - assumed it was a good price. I should start making hard-drives
and go bankrupt quickly
Micromegas
Member
All I want for Christmas is my PSP. Ground Zero for the downhill slide. Couple that with J Allard saying he wouldn't stop until he had a framed copy of Ken Kuturagi's resignation letter.
There is no class, or honesty among these thieves. The rest is trickle-down.
Sony seems to have turned around. Microsoft still thinks you're a fantasy football loving, dancing with the stars watching, dorrito chomping, dew swilling chump.
Geoff Keighley, sells that dream for Microsoft. Isn't he considered a "games journalist."
There is no class, or honesty among these thieves. The rest is trickle-down.
Sony seems to have turned around. Microsoft still thinks you're a fantasy football loving, dancing with the stars watching, dorrito chomping, dew swilling chump.
Geoff Keighley, sells that dream for Microsoft. Isn't he considered a "games journalist."
darkistheway
Member
I agree. This industry needs more transparency.
To which the reply should be "You want free advertising? We get to talk about whatever you give us. Don't want us to say something about something? Then don't give it to us".
At what point did journalists stop fighting for the consumer?
njean777
Member
This is the last time I care so much about releases, I am already at a point where I just want to block out all the info about new consoles and just get my ps4 and live in ignorance.
Metal Gear?!
Member
Yeah Politics. And in that case, it enables much worse abuses.
Or for kids today:
user8503492
Banned
I love the almost "hate" gaming journalist seem to have for the industry, gamers, and games.
I think many of us would trade are shit jobs for what they do.
I think many of us would trade are shit jobs for what they do.
The thing is video games (and most entertainment) aren't really important enough to justify investigative journalism. The companies selling us these things are companies that are trying to make money. I don't really think we have a "right" or are entitled to know things about their products before they come out. And if you're not happy about that, don't buy the products. You really aren't entitled to anything. It fucking sucks, I agree, but when you step back and put everything in perspective, it's not a big deal. It's your perogative to wait until the systems and truth comes out and not preorder until they give you all the info. Like can't you wait until the game/system comes out to know all this info?
Edit: What entertainment industry has fucking investigative journalists?
Edit: What entertainment industry has fucking investigative journalists?
Media in general sucks. Many times it has been proven any fake news passes as news on a lot of major outlets. Conclusion: trust noone! /paranoid
GillianSeed79
Member
While you have legitimate concerns, I think we are getting a little tinfoil-hatty. I think what the mods are trying to suggest in vague and in no uncertain certain terms is that we are all acting a little crazy like the sky is falling based on little to no information, random tweets, gaming journos, etc., and we are embarrassing GAF. I don't think they want this to turn into another Uncharted 3 review thread fiasco. Just chill. We need to relax. Have reasonable discussions and don't take it into crazy land. We are better than this. This isn't Watergate FFS.
disastermouse
Banned
Even political news has legitimate news sources on all sides willing to inveigh against pretty much everything. Video games enthusiast press are all smiles all the time.
Again, this information you're talking about is native resolution of a few launch titles.
They aren't hiding the fucking controller.
Ninja Scooter
Member
They are fans. These are guys that grew up playing video games and working at GameStops. These are probably also guys who dreamed about making games, not necessarily writing about them, when they were kids. It's the same reason sports journalists used to go so easy on Michael Jordan, because they were in awe of him or afraid of him, so they almost never wrote bad stories about him and covered up a lot of his indiscretions...except in this case every company is Michael Jordan.
It's enthusiast press. We just need to come to grips with the fact that most of the big boys, the guys on the gaming sites that get the most hits, have more in common with people who do unboxings on YouTube than they do with any investigative journalist.
Yeah. The past several days has been a bunch of BS.
This has been the most secretive console launches that I can remember. Getting simple information is like pulling teeth.
And you got insiders/journos on Twitter saying "Hahah. I know something you don't that could impact that $400-$500 investment you're about to make but I won't tell because I'd rather keep my industry cred!"
This has been the most secretive console launches that I can remember. Getting simple information is like pulling teeth.
And you got insiders/journos on Twitter saying "Hahah. I know something you don't that could impact that $400-$500 investment you're about to make but I won't tell because I'd rather keep my industry cred!"
Photolysis
Banned
What happened:
1) The quality of gaming 'journalism' has never been fantastic to begin with. You only have to see how badly they tend to fail basic media ethics. You won't find any GIFs of Ebert spinning around like a 2 year old because he got invited to an early screening.
2) Perhaps more so than any other field of reporting, the relationship between producers and journalists is extremely toxic. If Hollywood tried the same tactics for example, it would fail because they don't have the same level of power and control. Very few actually have a voice that has any real weight, so publishers aren't forced to appease anyone by giving them a review copy or access regardless, and because of the desperation for pageviews (and ad revenue) to stay afloat, even if most of the industry collectively banded together then someone would break it and suck up to the pubs to gain exclusive access.
If the entire gaming industry as one stood up and refused to allow themselves to be held hostage like at present then the situation might change. But even then, given the changing nature of the industry -- consider the rise of let's plays and youtube personalities -- the barrier to entry has never been smaller, and there'll be enough willing to get the word out.
1) The quality of gaming 'journalism' has never been fantastic to begin with. You only have to see how badly they tend to fail basic media ethics. You won't find any GIFs of Ebert spinning around like a 2 year old because he got invited to an early screening.
2) Perhaps more so than any other field of reporting, the relationship between producers and journalists is extremely toxic. If Hollywood tried the same tactics for example, it would fail because they don't have the same level of power and control. Very few actually have a voice that has any real weight, so publishers aren't forced to appease anyone by giving them a review copy or access regardless, and because of the desperation for pageviews (and ad revenue) to stay afloat, even if most of the industry collectively banded together then someone would break it and suck up to the pubs to gain exclusive access.
If the entire gaming industry as one stood up and refused to allow themselves to be held hostage like at present then the situation might change. But even then, given the changing nature of the industry -- consider the rise of let's plays and youtube personalities -- the barrier to entry has never been smaller, and there'll be enough willing to get the word out.
chickdigger802
Banned
EatinOlives
Member
Major publishers and the Big Three have journalists by the balls.
Be a good little boy and you get to play ball with the rest of the other good little boys. Step out of line and 1) you don't get invited to the secret treehouse where everyone who's anyone has their press events and 2) get free toys when they release so you can put out a review on day 1.
And by "step out of line" I mean anything from investigating anything publishers don't want investigated to giving a highly-marketed game a bad score.
If the livelihood on your site depends on the page views of the millions who look up reviews only ever on the first day that a major title releases, you have to play ball. If you dare say or do anything they don't like then you're out of the club.
Be a good little boy and you get to play ball with the rest of the other good little boys. Step out of line and 1) you don't get invited to the secret treehouse where everyone who's anyone has their press events and 2) get free toys when they release so you can put out a review on day 1.
And by "step out of line" I mean anything from investigating anything publishers don't want investigated to giving a highly-marketed game a bad score.
If the livelihood on your site depends on the page views of the millions who look up reviews only ever on the first day that a major title releases, you have to play ball. If you dare say or do anything they don't like then you're out of the club.
Stripper13
Member
Bullshit.
I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that there is a slew of websites/channels that are designed specifically to cover this industry, least of all the most significant event since the 360/PS3/Wii launches.
I will vote with my dollar - as we all will... but that doesn't change the fact that the journalists, developers and platform holders have all turned into marketers with duplicate messages. I don't think, in 2013 and all of the information at my fingertips - that I should have to go and rent the XB1 and it's software to compare it to X/Y. Not when there are people getting paid good money to try/test/cover this as a profession.
There's supposedly some damaging xbone info according to cboat.
Nightstick11
Banned
Let's just say it wasn't like this in the 90's and leave it at that.
Stripper13
Member
So McDonald's shouldn't have to divulge the sodium in their new burger if prompted, right? I mean, I can see the bread, lettuce and beef is all there and very delicious.
The devil is in the detail. And it's only irritating because there are rumblings that there are fuck-ups beyond a resolution drop (like OS/Network issues)... yet we hear nothing? No one will answer - just tease via the occasional twitter message.
njean777
Member
Posting what they already know about isn't even comparable to Syria. They know about this information already, so taking 5 minutes to post on GAF/Twitter/Website is not comparable to finding out what is happening in a war torn country.
JesseEwiak
Member
I hate to break this to you guys, but differences in resolution or whatever the outrage of the moment is today aren't equivalent to Watergate.
Marc
Member
Pre-orders are a confidence trick, ask yourself are you confident with the information available to you at the time that you are getting a product that you deem worthy of the stated value.
If you are not, then just cancel and wait until that information is available to you.
What is worrying me is stuff that has been 'overlooked' that I assumed were pretty rock solid features like this whole PS4 wallpaper issue is at the last minute revealed to be a kick up the arse. With Xbox One, their messaging is so confused and contradictory that I have zero confidence in anything they would say at this point so will wait until independent sources verify things. Namely, not press people, since the gaming press is the worst section of 'journalists' in the world with barely any credibility to spread around.
What you seem to have missed is the last 8 or so years of gaming 'journalism', that as it has got bigger in value has gotten worse in integrity. It hasn't evolved with the world at all (instant media, 24 hour news etc.). And now we are at a point (console release) that requires basic journalism, we are sadly lacking any. it can't be any shock to you, its terrible, but the only way that will change is if bloggers or sites like these get the value out of gamers instead of websites who are funded by games/systems companies.
Could only imagine certain other journalists being asked to sign their life away in an NDA for the benefit of a company. They would all get together as one, boycott that companies media and attention, then try to bury it with leaks they find out from former employee's (or bribe/entice current ones).
If these guys had a pair, they would all contact each other, enlist legal aid and perhaps a public fund for defence if required and break the NDA together. Will MS/Sony/Nintendo really further damage their reputation by taking those guys to court? Maybe, but it would be nice if a precedent was set and gaming can move on from being a mouthpiece for companies and not consumers.
If you are not, then just cancel and wait until that information is available to you.
What is worrying me is stuff that has been 'overlooked' that I assumed were pretty rock solid features like this whole PS4 wallpaper issue is at the last minute revealed to be a kick up the arse. With Xbox One, their messaging is so confused and contradictory that I have zero confidence in anything they would say at this point so will wait until independent sources verify things. Namely, not press people, since the gaming press is the worst section of 'journalists' in the world with barely any credibility to spread around.
What you seem to have missed is the last 8 or so years of gaming 'journalism', that as it has got bigger in value has gotten worse in integrity. It hasn't evolved with the world at all (instant media, 24 hour news etc.). And now we are at a point (console release) that requires basic journalism, we are sadly lacking any. it can't be any shock to you, its terrible, but the only way that will change is if bloggers or sites like these get the value out of gamers instead of websites who are funded by games/systems companies.
Could only imagine certain other journalists being asked to sign their life away in an NDA for the benefit of a company. They would all get together as one, boycott that companies media and attention, then try to bury it with leaks they find out from former employee's (or bribe/entice current ones).
If these guys had a pair, they would all contact each other, enlist legal aid and perhaps a public fund for defence if required and break the NDA together. Will MS/Sony/Nintendo really further damage their reputation by taking those guys to court? Maybe, but it would be nice if a precedent was set and gaming can move on from being a mouthpiece for companies and not consumers.
I think you're missing the main point his post in the post you linked - you're being a little impatient. If you were an informed customer that care enough about making sure the product was perfectly what you wanted you'd wait until the products were out and reviewed and tested before you'd buy it.
njean777
Member
Sony I feel has handled their stuff pretty well, except showing us the OS, other then that I think they have done fine. Maybe I am wrong.
I'm not sure what exactly you are expecting. There is very little "journalism" in gaming, never has been. This industry is press driven, and that about covers it. Rarely do you see articles talking about the shady dealings of Bethesda or horror stories like the making LA Noire. Game journalism isn't dead, it just never really existed. I mean honestly, have you not ever questioned why so many game journalists are always trying to get the industry to "grow up"?
Games media doesn't pay well(for whatever reason), so most are not willing to push too hard against these massive corporations. Investigative journalism, in general, is dead you cant even do it in the real world(Just look at the pressure Glenn Greenwald has had). Journalism in an industry controlled by publishers/publicly traded companies is just never going to last.
So many people into gaming as a hobby or in the industry have this infatuation with gaming being looked at as art/with respect/grown up, and consumer rights just are not that important. By no means is this restricted to games, but at least the tech industry has established investigative journalism.
Woo-Fu
Banned
They only thing that has changed is how quick information is spread----and consequently your expectations with respect to what a publisher/developer says about well, anything. Publishers were just as tight-fisted before but you never really noticed because your favorite gaming magazine had a 2-3 month lead anyhow.
Social media and the Internet have just given them even more ways to spin what they've always been spinning. The quick turn around just makes it more obvious what is going on.
As for the 720p thing today I don't really understand why it is such a bombshell. We already knew the PS4 hardware was significantly stronger. Unless you were expecting Microsoft to successfully bribe every developer/publisher out there to gimp their PS4 versions none of this should come as a surprise.
The average user isn't going to know or care what the games are rendering at internally. How much does it cost and what exclusives does it bring to the table?
Social media and the Internet have just given them even more ways to spin what they've always been spinning. The quick turn around just makes it more obvious what is going on.
As for the 720p thing today I don't really understand why it is such a bombshell. We already knew the PS4 hardware was significantly stronger. Unless you were expecting Microsoft to successfully bribe every developer/publisher out there to gimp their PS4 versions none of this should come as a surprise.
The average user isn't going to know or care what the games are rendering at internally. How much does it cost and what exclusives does it bring to the table?
Project Alice
Banned
I honestly don't get all the "boo gaming journalism" battlecries. It's this way because of us. Let's think about this.
- We want great and accurate video game coverage
- We also want it as soon as humanly possible
- We support the gaming sites & publications that give it to us first
- Sites & publications know they need to be first a fair amount of time to get clicks and a big following
- Therefore sites & publications enter into crossroads deals with publishers to get the scoop first
- Publisher wont give you a scoop first if you're going to trash their shit to smithereens
- We complain because shit wasnt trashed to smithereens when it should have been
- Yet we refuse to wait until a game actually releases to get real honest to god reporting
- So we feed the monster
Stripper13
Member
Yes - because that's what the point of my post was...
This has been going on for months with respect to the new consoles - and much, much longer with all things gaming. Let's not act like I was targeting IGN for not bringing in people for the weekend to dig information.
What obligates them to appease a bunch of maniacal fans?
Just because a bunch of fat people show up an hour before MacDonald's opens doesn't mean they have to let them in early.
The nutritional value of your food is comparable to how many pixels a couple of your games run at? Really, guy? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life.
Have these games even gone gold? Are reviewers actually playing the final build of either of them on PS4 and Xbox One hardware? We're also in the age of the day one patch, what's broken now could be fixed before we even see these games running on our consoles.
I mean, I agree that the way publishers throw around NDA's (and the type of things they include in NDAs) are ridiculous, but this level of outrage over something like this? The absolute definition of mountains out of molehills.
JesseEwiak
Member
Yes, member of the press should totally threaten their livelihood for a small part of their audience who regularly insults them and acts as if they know nothing about gaming if they score a game too high or low. I'm sure they're really willing to get on that train.
The problem is most likely that games journalists are seen as replaceable. If a company blacklists a blogger, that will generally hurt the blogger much more than the company. The company will still be able to get it's info out, and it'll still get reposted by a thousand other bloggers and wannabees.
I don't follow other enthusiast press, but they probably have more magazines that survived, and those outlets are probably too large to ignore with a blacklist.
This is definitely a problem within the industry as a whole. The only reason Sony isn't hiding stuff (That we know of) is because they have been nailing it since February. The issue I think goes back to the fans. We are so passionate about what we do that if something goes wrong we destroy it on sites like Neogaf. This means console makers are scared to share information and they force journalist to follow suit. It's all about fear. You guys bash Microsoft about honesty when if they are honest they will get butt raped by gaf and reddit. That of course leads to people saying that they should have been honest in the first place to you know, peel the band-aid. There is definietly merit to that but what if a console maker actually thought it was the right thing to do and then later found out that people hate it. Take DRM for example, They probably thought that it wasn't that big of a deal. The rumors start flowing and they start to get nervous. They delay the announcement now because they are scared. They move ahead with the plan anyway because maybe Sony is doing it too. Sony destroys them at E3, they do a reversal and they get bad press anyway. Don't you think that as a rational company, Microsoft would delay as much info as long as possible so that when they do say it, they will have the right message this time. I'm not defending Microsoft because they really did screw up and they deserve bad press, but what I am saying is that maybe it's fear that's the root of all of this.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Being open and transparent shouldn't "Threaten their livelihood". That's the point. When Vanity Faire writer writes and article about gwenyth paltrow cheating on her husband, he doesn't get black balled. When a political writer exposes a story, or writes an article that paints the white house and/or Obama in a bad light, they don't lose their livelihood. That's the problem.
Crash55118
Member
The whole twitter thing is getting a tad ridiculous. It is the ultimate 5 year old on the playground yelling "I know something you don't know"
The public ranting about things out of their control comes off about as interesting and well thought out as the people that troll for some kind of sympathy or attention on Facebook with posts like "I can't stand how I was treated today" and then when questioned about what is wrong come back with something along the lines of "Oh, I don't want to talk about this on my wall, it was just a really horrible day"
These last few weeks are shaping up to be insane.
The public ranting about things out of their control comes off about as interesting and well thought out as the people that troll for some kind of sympathy or attention on Facebook with posts like "I can't stand how I was treated today" and then when questioned about what is wrong come back with something along the lines of "Oh, I don't want to talk about this on my wall, it was just a really horrible day"
These last few weeks are shaping up to be insane.
That's why you shouldn't pre-order shit and buy hardware at launch. If you want to be a smart consumer, then be one. Wait till all the information is out and the kinks are sorted.
I mean, I pre-order stuff all the time, and I've bought consoles at launch before (hell, I bought one last year), but I'm willing to acknowledge that I'm playing into the industry's hands when I do so.
I mean, I pre-order stuff all the time, and I've bought consoles at launch before (hell, I bought one last year), but I'm willing to acknowledge that I'm playing into the industry's hands when I do so.
What you are saying is that there is no market for investigative journlaism? I'm not sure that is the case, but we have never really seen a site act like a watchdog if this industry... Treating the industry and the internet in large generalities like your post though, really doesn't add credence to whether or not there is a market where people can earn a living in that part of the press.
I think it would at least be worth a shot for a company to try and grow a journalist watchdog group in this industry.. Would help more then just consumers out too, as I'm sure there are very bad worker practices in the industry that definitely should be looked at.
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