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[mrklaw]

It shouldn't be a problem considering that every multiplatform title would already have a trophy/achievement list. And Nintendo has accomplishments for all of their launch titles, so they're already supporting it.

doesn't this make global, online accomplishments likely, if Nintendo are building them in their games?

They probably just don't have the infrastructure together and they'll roll it out in the next 12 months like PSN did.

 

[marc^o^]

I'm sure I read few months ago Nintendo confirm achievements would not be forced on Wii U, that devs would decide to add it or not.

 

[Durante]

The "CHOICE!" people are barking up the wrong tree. Steam gives developers the choice to add achievements or not, but still tracks them globally and allows you to easily look up your own or compare with your friends'.

If they'd offer that, it would be fine by me.

 

[ASIS]

doesn't this make global, online accomplishments likely, if Nintendo are building them in their games?

They probably just don't have the infrastructure together and they'll roll it out in the next 12 months like PSN did.

Probably they didn't make it global because of the casual games.

 

[Eusis]

Ahh yes, I see we've gotten to the point of the thread now where we start telling people how they should have fun. If people have fun completing achievements/trophies and want to buy more games just to do that, more power to them. It's their money and they can spend it however they want to.

On one hand, you do have a point. On the other, once enough people care rather than just a fringe minority you start to see design favor that more, and we go from the system trying to do interesting things to more being a checklist of basic accomplishments with a few more out of the way goals, with the extreme case being games getting lower sales due to lacking them... or having achievements that are "too hard to get".

Nevermind that I do consider the "what does the developer really want to do?" angle also important to keep in mind. Though that is the other problem with crying for them to be mandated: they say they will be ignored like trophies, except trophies were barely around before Sony decided to mandate, and we have an example of a system that has actually had them for years without mandating: Steam. And most games DO have achievements on Steam, so it's not like developers will never ever use them just because they're optional.

 

[Tenck]

I have no idea what the Miiverse has anything to do with what I'm talking about, unless you are vastly overestimating its capabilities.

Well there's the root of the problem. Miiverse is basically a bunch of people huddled around games they've played, and talk about what they want to be publicly known to their friends or just anyone online. One could say, they might actually write that they've finished a game eh?

 

[Boss Doggie]

Yeah, the Steam comparison is much more visible if those posts are true. Steam only records achievements you did but doesn't really give you a general "level". Console players would probably hate it but it uses the word achievement so I guess they remain in the dark.

 

[Aquamarine]

So, it doesn't sound too bad. It's just a matter of whether or not other devs will use the same accomplishment system.

Accomplishments...like "Ken reached level 8!" I think the emphasis here is going to be a little different...more game-centric and less of an arbitrary checklist style.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Accomplishments...like "Ken reached level 8!" I think the emphasis here is going to be a little different...more game-centric and less of an arbitrary checklist style.

To be fair most achievements are like that too

 

[Noi]

The PS3 never has let you disable notifications within a game (likely a flaw with how they're implemented, given the Vita allows them to be shut off), and you don't see stuff like Kid Icarus, FFXII, or Xenoblade's implementations often on those consoles. I actually have been starting to suspect it's DISCOURAGED given how we had games like ME1 and Crackdown reward you, then ME2 scaled that back with ME3 seemingly dumping them entirely, and I can't think of any other games that gave you in-game rewards for them. So not only is there the "you're compromising a game that's a pure experience!" angle, you ALSO seem to be setting the One Standard that everyone follows rather than allowing everyone to try their own twists and takes, or to not bother at all because it doesn't suit their design goals.

Counter-Example: Uncharted. Since before trophies existed, Naughty Dog implemented an in-game achievement system that gave you points to unlock in-game rewards. This trait continued into UC2 and 3, many years later. Of course, not every developer is Naughty Dog.

If there's one thing I've learned this gen, is that devs will cut corners wherever possible if something isn't required of them. We'd see more games use Trophies/Achievements as in-game rewards if the devs actually tried with them. As it is, they're there because MS/Sony require them to be. If Nintendo isn't going to do the same, I don't wouldn't expect Accomplishments from more than 1st party titles and devs that actually care.

 

[Visualante2]

If you're going to have them, it's best that they're unified so they can be turned off with one switch. Steam got it right.

 

[Monocle]

Nintendo just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about gaming culture (I'm an expert), but competition and bragging rights are huge parts of it. It's not like it was last gen where you could become successful just by beating the game. If you don't have a way to publicly outdo your online friends, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is to get more cheevos than they have.

What this means is that true gamers, after hearing about this, are not going to want to purchase Wii U products, nor will they purchase any of Nintendo's other games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Nintendo has alienated an entire market with this move.

Nintendo, publicly apologize and add achievement support to the Wii U or you can kiss your business goodbye.

 

[madmackem]

Well there's the root of the problem. Miiverse is basically a bunch of people huddled around games they've played, and talk about what they want to be publicly known to their friends or just anyone online. One could say, they might actually write that they've finished a game eh?

But if it just works like that then it wont be anything like a comparing system. Im really hoping i can look at a friends id see the games hes finished or played and what hes done in them. No confirmed party chat wii u chat only being able to work by quiting a game the bad news for me is really starting to gather pace.

 

[Atomski]

Isnt this old news?

Anyways I cant believe people care so much about this. I feel like achievements have been one of the dumbest additions this generation.

I can see stat and progression tracking being cool but who seriously gives a shit about some made up gamer score..

Nintendo just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about gaming culture (I'm an expert), but competition and bragging rights are huge parts of it. It's not like it was last gen where you could become successful just by beating the game. If you don't have a way to publicly outdo your online friends, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is to get more cheevos than they have.

What this means is that true gamers, after hearing about this, are not going to want to purchase Wii U products, nor will they purchase any of Nintendo's other games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Nintendo has alienated an entire market with this move.

Nintendo, publicly apologize and add achievement support to the Wii U or you can kiss your business goodbye.

Haha please tell me this is a joke.

 

[Eusis]

Counter-Example: Uncharted. Since before trophies existed, Naughty Dog implemented an in-game achievement system that gave you points to unlock in-game rewards. This trait continued into UC2 and 3, many years later. Of course, not every developer is Naughty Dog.

If there's one thing I've learned this gen, is that devs will cut corners wherever possible if something isn't required of them. We'd see more games use Trophies/Achievements as in-game rewards if the devs actually tried with them. As it is, they're there because MS/Sony require them to be. If Nintendo isn't going to do the same, I don't wouldn't expect Accomplishments from more than 1st party titles and devs that actually care.

Didn't Uncharted 3 scale that back? Though that may be a case of rushing the game, it sounds like they were strained with putting both a strong single player campaign and a worthwhile multiplayer side into the second game, and I guess something gave in the third.

And I addressed that last one, though it was in an edit. I'll just quote it here:

Nevermind that I do consider the "what does the developer really want to do?" angle also important to keep in mind. Though that is the other problem with crying for them to be mandated: they say they will be ignored like trophies, except trophies were barely around before Sony decided to mandate, and we have an example of a system that has actually had them for years without mandating: Steam. And most games DO have achievements on Steam, so it's not like developers will never ever use them just because they're optional.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Nintendo just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about gaming culture (I'm an expert), but competition and bragging rights are huge parts of it. It's not like it was last gen where you could become successful just by beating the game. If you don't have a way to publicly outdo your online friends, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is to get more cheevos than they have.

What this means is that true gamers, after hearing about this, are not going to want to purchase Wii U products, nor will they purchase any of Nintendo's other games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Nintendo has alienated an entire market with this move.

Nintendo, publicly apologize and add achievement support to the Wii U or you can kiss your business goodbye.

Well if it's all about bragging, then I guess Miiverse should handle that

 

[HawthorneKitty]

I'm somewhat glad; I remember how achievements dictated how I played Deus Ex: HR.
I enjoyed it, but nothing really surprised me after running down the list to see what I had to do in as few runs as I could.

 

[Aquamarine]

Nintendo just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about gaming culture (I'm an expert), but competition and bragging rights are huge parts of it. It's not like it was last gen where you could become successful just by beating the game. If you don't have a way to publicly outdo your online friends, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is to get more cheevos than they have.

What this means is that true gamers, after hearing about this, are not going to want to purchase Wii U products, nor will they purchase any of Nintendo's other games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Nintendo has alienated an entire market with this move.

Nintendo, publicly apologize and add achievement support to the Wii U or you can kiss your business goodbye.

How did 90 million people on the Wii ever survive without a unified achievement system?

It must have been SO hard. Those true gamers must have wept tears of sorrow.

Joking aside, there's backlash no matter what stance you take. Some people can't live without system-wide achievements. Some can't stand them. But the majority of people who're going to buy this thing? Couldn't care less.

 

[madmackem]

Isnt this old news?

Anyways I cant believe people care so much about this. I feel like achievements have been one of the dumbest additions this generation.

I can see stat and progression tracking being cool but who seriously gives a shit about some made up gamer score..

People do care though and if you dont wheres the harm in them being in there. I agree for me the big thing is the stat progression and tracking against my friends but we still arnt sure how these work if at all.

 

[Raonak]

Giving developers options doesn't really work. see the ps3.
youtube uploading, custom soundtracks, screenshot function, trophies before '09. All optional, and would be relatively easy to implement-

but barely any devs bother doing it.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Isnt this old news?

Anyways I cant believe people care so much about this. I feel like achievements have been one of the dumbest additions this generation.

I can see stat and progression tracking being cool but who seriously gives a shit about some made up gamer score..

Just think about the highlighted. Do you feel as though that is a valid argument... for gaming?

 

[Ashler]

This makes me kinda sad. However, the PS3 was also set not to have an achievement system. Perhaps Nintendo will include something in a future update if the install base requests it.

... yeah, I'm grasping at straws. :/

 

[Peagles]

I'm ok with this!

Though most gamers like achievements I take so it's a weird decision by Nintendo.

This is pretty much me right here. I wouldn't be fussed either way, but some of the backlash will suck.

 

[Mafro]

Excellent news.

 

[Tenck]

But if it just works like that then it wont be anything like a comparing system. Im really hoping i can look at a friends id see the games hes finished or played and what hes done in them. No confirmed party chat wii u chat only being able to work by quiting a game the bad news for me is really starting to gather pace.

One accomplishment of playing the game is beating it. He asked to see accomplishments, and I told him one alternative. If he wants to see specific accomplishments, well hope his friends talk more in depth of what they've done.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Yes. If they don't want it, they shouldn't be forced to. I don't think I've downloaded a demo in years, so this doesn't bother me. But that's just me.

They should if consumers want it. I dont know why you wouldnt want to be able to try a game before buying it and seeing if youd like it. If its a bad demo, thats not on the player.

My point is, using the developers dont want it excuse is pretty lame when there is a significant consumer base that does. If you dont care, thats fine, you can continue ignoring demos and achievements. I felt the same way about cross game chat and party chat on the PS3 till I figured that there are a lot of people that do like thw feature, that just because I dont care that a system shouldnt be in place.

But hey you are right. Maybe we are jumping to conclusions and thw miiverse has a good progress tracker in place compared to other services. Guess we'll find out in a week.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Lol Nintendo. One less reason to buy your half assed, half step, living in the past console. I really wish you'd get a clue. I lived you in the SNES era. But you just refuse to acknowledge the future in some really bizarre ways.

 

[drkOne]

Nintendo knows system-wide achievements are broken and wants nothing to do with it.

 

[Noi]

Didn't Uncharted 3 scale that back? Though that may be a case of rushing the game, it sounds like they were strained with putting both a strong single player campaign and a worthwhile multiplayer side into the second game, and I guess something gave in the third.

And I addressed that last one, though it was in an edit. I'll just quote it here:

I'd *almost* considers Steam a special case, since you have to be approved by Valve to release on Stteam anyway. And yet there's still big 3rd party games that release on it with no Steam achievements, but most of the games from smaller pubs do, which coincidentally, have a biggest fan outreach/care about what their customers think.

How ever did 90 million people on the Wii ever survive without a unified achievement system?

It must have been SO hard. Those true gamers must have wept tears of sorrow.

Joking aside, there's backlash no matter what stance you take. Some people can't live without system-wide achievements. Some can't stand them. But the majority of people who're going to buy this thing? Couldn't care less.

Woosh. Swing and a miss.

 

[Atomski]

Just think about the highlighted. Do you feel as though that is a valid argument... for gaming?

What I mean is we use to play games and do extra things to get more out of the game... now we do it for a stupid number.

I remember doing speed runs in Goldeneye 64 to unlock cheats and such... these days you dont see that anymore its just some dumb number and nothing actually "fun".

 

[Ninty Legend]

Lol Nintendo. One less reason to buy your half assed, half step, living in the past console. I really wish you'd get a clue. I lived you in the SNES era. But you just refuse to acknowledge the future in some really bizarre ways.

lol:

 

[Eusis]

They should if consumers want it. I dont know why you wouldnt want to be able to try a game before buying it and seeing if youd like it. If its a bad demo, thats not on the player.

It's more that enabling a demo CAN be a painful process for the developer, and can be potentially useless or even harmful, surely at least some of us played a crappy demo, only to give the full game a fair shot and falling for it, or vice versa. Not as if the 360 mandated them for retail games, and half of my beef with XBLA standards is how they helped make the games feel different, sometimes inherently inferior to retail games.

I'd *almost* considers Steam a special case, since you have to be approved by Valve to release on Stteam anyway. And yet there's still big 3rd party games that release on it with no Steam achievements, but most of the games from smaller pubs do, which coincidentally, have a biggest fan outreach/care about what their customers think.

If I'm correct most of the achievement-less 3rd party games tend to not be Steamworks period, though more and more we're seeing games that add those features even if they're not inherently Steamworks (Witcher 2, Max Payne 3, Batman AC), and some of those that skip it may not even be good fits (Dear Esther, possibly Cherry Tree High Comedy Club). And the approve to be on Steam, well, that's exactly what happens with Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft anyway, big difference being you could actually do very little work to have the game on Steam whereas you'd have to properly port a game over to Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft platforms unless it's something like the VC I guess.

 

[dimb]

One accomplishment of playing the game is beating it. He asked to see accomplishments, and I told him one alternative. If he wants to see specific accomplishments, well hope his friends talk more in depth of what they've done.

Look, all I want is some kind of list where I can see what my friends have been up to. I do not think this is really a lot to ask for, and it is absurd to suggest that users should just do the legwork and type up stuff about what they did in the game through this specific avenue.

 

[madmackem]

What I mean is we use to play games and do extra things to get more out of the game... now we do it for a stupid number.

I remember doing speed runs in Goldeneye 64 to unlock cheats and such... these days you dont see that anymore its just some dumb number and nothing actually "fun".

To you and maybe me and thousands of others, but to thousands of other people it adds to there game and they enjoy it. I never understand the attitude i dont like something so fuck everyone else.

 

[Backfoggen]

Devs will know to include achievements. I hope.

 

[KillerTravis]

Isn't Miiverse enough for people to set their own challenges and brag about them? I bet most people will post images of their records or how they beat the game on Hell Mode or whatever.

 

[Noi]

What I mean is we use to play games and do extra things to get more out of the game... now we do it for a stupid number.

I remember doing speed runs in Goldeneye 64 to unlock cheats and such... these days you dont see that anymore its just some dumb number and nothing actually "fun".

Nothing is stopping you from doing that now. Achievements or no Achievements.

 

[Boss Doggie]

But hey you are right. Maybe we are jumping to conclusions and thw miiverse has a good progress tracker in place compared to other services. Guess we'll find out in a week.

Mostly this. People forget that the source was from a speculation, even with the ND we still know shit about Miiverse.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Lol, who were really expecting system-wide achievements (along with gamerscore)?

Can't say I'm too fussed about the lack of them, knowing Nintendo they would have implemented it in a form that you couldn't disable - and that would have been truly awful.

 

[jimi_dini]

Haha please tell me this is a joke.

Here since 2009 and you don't know about that GAF meme? The (I'm an expert) gives it away.

 

[Durante]

Look, all I want is some kind of list where I can see what my friends have been up to. I do not think this is really a lot to ask for, and it is absurd to suggest that users should just do the legwork and type up stuff about what they did in the game through this specific avenue.

Exactly this.

 

[dan2026]

Nintendo really have shot themselves in both feet with this.

Achievements do give that little incentive to keep playing the game and see everything it has to offer. There isn't really any downside to them.

Hell one of my friends freaking loves getting 100% of the achievements in game if he can.
Is that kind of OCD? Maybe? But he loves it and people expect these little treats out of modern games.

 

[Haunted]

Nintendo just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about gaming culture (I'm an expert), but competition and bragging rights are huge parts of it. It's not like it was last gen where you could become successful just by beating the game. If you don't have a way to publicly outdo your online friends, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is to get more cheevos than they have.

What this means is that true gamers, after hearing about this, are not going to want to purchase Wii U products, nor will they purchase any of Nintendo's other games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Nintendo has alienated an entire market with this move.

Nintendo, publicly apologize and add achievement support to the Wii U or you can kiss your business goodbye.

never gets old

Here are the descriptions from Nintendo

NSMBU:

SiNG

So, it doesn't sound too bad. It's just a matter of whether or not other devs will use the same accomplishment system.

Bear with me here - is Miiverse a separate thing from the OS-level menu or is that just Nintendo's name for it?

If you can quickly look this kind of information up as it's built into the system, that's fine. If I have to enter some sort of separate Sony Home-like environment to look this stuff up, that's bad.

 

[tearsofash]

I don't mind this too much. I'd much rather have system wide achievements to contrast and compare progress between games my friends and I play. If it's like steam it won't be so bad.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Maybe this means saves won't have to be arbitrarily locked due to internet badges.

 

[Eusis]

Maybe this means saves won't have to be arbitrarily locked due to internet badges.

The only time that needed to be done on PS3 was if you planned to add trophy support later. Otherwise the system as far as I can tell DOES recognize if the save isn't meant for that user, so more often it seems to be either because freely copying runs afoul of the intended design (Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter) or because the developers as assholes (WHY DID YOU LOCK HEAVY RAIN SAVES? FOR FUCK'S SAKE IT'S AN INTERACTIVE MOVIE. NO ONE WILL DOWNLOAD TO CHEAT, AND PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SKIP AHEAD WILL USE YOUTUBE.)

 

[Noi]

Maybe this means saves won't have to be arbitrarily locked due to internet badges.

Didn't stop Smash Bros. Brawl or Mario Kart Wii.

 

[FatalMuzza]

I have difficulty in comprehending Nintendos lack of wisdom on this one.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Bear with me here - is Miiverse a separate thing from the OS-level menu or is that just Nintendo's name for it?

If you can quickly look this up as it's built into the system, that's fine. If I have to enter some sort of Sony Home-like environment to look this stuff up, that's bad.

Miiverse is the first thing you see when you boot up the Wii U. So it's not separate at all. Once you're ingame you're able to pull up a menu anytime that you want to access Miiverse.

 

[Eusis]

Didn't stop Smash Bros. Brawl or Mario Kart Wii.

Oh, that's due to online date, though in that case Mario Strikers seemed to just cut out the online data, so I don't have any clue why they didn't just do that for those two. Maybe to prevent sharing unlockables or whatever, even though that'd only level the playing field.

Anyways, pending dumb things like that I don't think the Wii U will force save locking for any reason that wasn't already there on something like PS2: we all have accounts, I imagine one's required whether or not you go online, and thus each save can be marked with its native account, and if it's not in that account anything achievement related for a game is blocked off.