Support NeoGAF

[Netherscourge]

Isn't the game released in the US? I assume that means it's not classified as child porn

I believe the US version had all explicit sexual content removed?

 

[duckroll]

It's true that games with nudity weren't always forbidden in Japan like they are now. If you look at this (NSFW) article about Snatcher you'll see that there's nudity present in some of the Japanese console versions, but not the western Sega CD version.

PC Engine was pretty much the most liberal console in terms of first party standards in Japan. It's definitely not the norm. Nudity was pretty much a no-no on Nintendo, Sega, and Sony systems. Most of what people associate with nudity in "old Japanese games" is limited to PC-Engine and PC-88/PC-98 games, which is closer to modern PC games in terms of not having real standards.

 

[Tohsaka]

Wouldn't this game (Criminal Girls) be banned in the USA anyway? I don't see how it's getting through the ESRB.

If any of the girls are younger than 18 and are being painted in a sexual way it's instant bad/ illegal shit in the USA yeah? I thought loli stuff was completely illegal in the states.

There are already other games on 3DS/Vita that have content like this and they're not illegal, so...

 

[Yarbskoo]

Doesn't matter if it's anime or real either - if the anime is obscene, like in this game, then it is illegal.

Is this game getting a physical retail release? If so, you'd better tell Gamestop they're gonna be in a lot of trouble.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Please make a logical counterargument instead of a shitty GIF.

Defending simulated sexual assault of children makes you a revolting excuse for a human being.

Tada!

 

[Krejlooc]

I don't see how it's getting through the ESRB.

It would be prudent, since this keeps getting asked, to review the way ESRB ratings are handed out. This is a good primer: http://theblunderbusters.com/2014/01/08/everything-thats-wrong-with-the-esrb/

Read that, and you can understand how obviously questionable games can manipulate the content they provide to the ESRB to still get through.

 

[Netherscourge]

As I said in the last thread, the obscenity charge works on a state by state thing when referring to this kind of stuff. It is not a federal law. In certain states, it would not be illegal if a real child is not involved.

That being said, Criminal Girls probably could get NIS in trouble in certain states if any law/government people truly wanted to pursue it. I don't think anyone in that position really cares, though.

I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court ruling makes it federal law.

 

[Dragonborn]

Wouldn't this game (Criminal Girls) be banned in the USA anyway? I don't see how it's getting through the ESRB.

If any of the girls are younger than 18 and are being painted in a sexual way it's instant ban/ illegal shit in the USA yeah? I thought loli stuff was completely illegal in the states.

My guess is that 1. it's not actually real and 2. There's isn't any actual pornographic elements involved in the game (or so I've heard).

Besides, as others have said, they're not technically underage so perhaps that's how they get around that (if there is a law)?

The Feds probably have bigger fries to fry though, like, you know, people actually producing and distributing stuff that actually harms children.

 

[Settin]

Defending simulated sexual assault of children makes you a revolting excuse for a human being.

Tada!

Dat ad hominem.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

It's not a porn but in the trailer you see a girl who appears to be 10-12 with legs outstretched and labia showing while you rub/smack hurt which is pretty disturbing. Still kind of nasty to have discussion of it banned given it got an ERSB rating.

Edit: Just saw the quoted mod explanations.

What in the name of fuck?

 

[Laughing Banana]

GAF is an international forum. Whose age of consent are we going to use to define this limit?

The age of consent used by the GAF moderation team.

 

[charlequin]

I agree, and I think that instead of banning theads like this, mods should instead ban the people who into threads for the game and then proceed to just derail the game.

I cannot even begin to describe to you how unwilling I am to use my own free, unpaid time going into threads about games that sexualize children and banning their detractors so the fans of the games can discuss them in peace.

It's an international forum, and yet as far as I know this game isn't actually banned anywhere. So by all of these international standards, the game is fit for public consumption.

Something being acceptable to own and enjoy in privacy does not make it suitable for all public fora, just like it's legal for someone to go to town on their spouse in their bedroom but not at the park.

 

[Nirolak]

As long as we can still have a Kill la kill thread I'm cool

To be clear we are trying to be as narrow as possible here.

While some might find an obsession with people who are clearly high school girls odd, that's nothing we have an intention of stopping.

People concerned about Senran Kagura or Akiba's Trip for example also need not be worried unless they make a spin-off with girls who are much younger.

Criminal Girls we are talking about a game that revolves around people who are visually little kids and abusing them sexually, not half naked high school girls getting their clothes torn off.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

It wasn't flawed, it wasn't loaded, and it wasn't a fallacy. It was a legitimate issue, which got legitimate discussion within this thread, before you decided to attack the post for whatever reason.

But, obviously this is adding nothing either to this thread or to the actual discussion branching off of this post.

I attacked the post because it's actually a logical fallacy.

Pointing out your opponent's hypocrisy doesn't weaken their original position. It's poor debate.

You haven't really put up much of a defense here aside from attack me or blindly deny anything I've said. Neither of which I've done.

 

[unbias]

There are already other games on 3DS/Vita that have content like this and they're not illegal, so...

Ya...the fact that TLC can air that creepy child model show that you see pop up on the news every so often, then there is a lot of room for the "creeper" vibe. Still, that type of stuff being against forum policy on neogaf or at least not being allowed to pander to it, I see no downside.

 

[Krejlooc]

PC Engine was pretty much the most liberal console in terms of first party standards in Japan. It's definitely not the norm. Nudity was pretty much a no-no on Nintendo, Sega, and Sony systems. Most of what people associate with nudity in "old Japanese games" is limited to PC-Engine and PC-88/PC-98 games, which is closer to modern PC games in terms of not having real standards.

I'd give it up to the PC-FX, but it's part o the PC-E family.

 

[Kinyou]

I believe the US version had all explicit sexual content removed?

http://touch.destructoid.com/destru...be-mildly-censored,53bbebafb7d8d24162e20420/4


Sounds like tame censorship to me

 

[DOWN]

If you are defending content like that of Criminal Girls, you are not casting yourself in a good light.

 

[Abriael]

Wouldn't this game (Criminal Girls) be banned in the USA anyway? I don't see how it's getting through the ESRB.

NISA Already talked with the ESRB, as they mentioned in the forums, so it's safe to assume that it is getting through the ESRB, most probably because it is not child porn as some here mistakenly assume.

Again, not that I don't understand the mods' decision, or I particularly care in any way about this kind of imagery, but there's a whole lot of misrepresentation going on here.

 

[tokyostomp]

Anyone want to take best on how long before Settin gets a permaban?

 

[Crayons]

I'm not sure where NeoGaf is based, but it's illegal in the USA to possess, trade, distribute or host child porn on the internet or even on your own private computer. Doesn't matter if it's anime or real either - if the anime is obscene, like in this game, then it is illegal.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/citizensguide/citizensguide_porn.html



From wiki:




So, it's pretty easy to see why moderation is required - all it takes is one or two gifs with one of these girls in it to get the FBI's attention.

No, that's not how it works. What that is really talking about is digitally, computer made/manipulated photographs of children. Not anime/cartoons.

see this part

generated images indistinguishable from an actual minor, and images created, adapted, or modified, but appear to depict an identifiable, actual minor.

 

[Settin]

Anyone want to take best on how long before Settin gets a permaban?

1-3 more posts probably.

 

[Yuuichi]

Custer's Revenge was an explicit game for the old Atari 2600 consoles. So yes, creepy games have been around since before the NES.

The reason you didn't see a lot of it on the PS1/PS2 is because Sony's censorship standards were higher then. The standards have been loosened now, largely because of the slumping economy and increasing influence of "creepy otaku types" as mentioned in an earlier post.

Custers revenge was long before there was any real policing of content, I can't say it's a great example for that reason. It was also american made, and the company made several other pornagraphic titles, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.

Wouldn't this game (Criminal Girls) be banned in the USA anyway? I don't see how it's getting through the ESRB.

If any of the girls are younger than 18 and are being painted in a sexual way it's instant ban/ illegal shit in the USA yeah? I thought loli stuff was completely illegal in the states.

You're right about the second part, as for the ESRB part I'm kind of wondering that myself. Although when you think about some of bioware's games, not letting it through (although pulling an m rating in the process) would be a nasty double standard, something that an independent firm focused on informing customers shouldn't pull.

No, that's not how it works. What that is really talking about is digitally, computer made/manipulated photographs of children. Not anime/cartoons.

Technically it applies, but if I remember correctly the definition of obscenity in this case is kind of dumb, and is related to having value beyond that of being pornographic. I also hate this argument, because it's a dumb, fuzzy line that really shouldn't exist at all.

 

[duckroll]

The visual novels may not have but other red label games did. Just check out the many mahjong games produced prior to Sega's policy change in 96(?).

Oh wait, I think I do remember SuchiPai stuff. It's weird, because pretty much everything else was censored. I wonder how some of them got away with it. ADVs knew to stay as "clean" as possible, so what made mahjong games different?

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Have you ever used the term "Ephebophilia" to defend it?

there ya go

Also:

Do you know the age of consent laws of multiple countries, including Japan?

 

[Shouta]

It's no less a "real game" than SRWZ3. Or does having fanservice bits suddenly make it not a real game? Don't get me wrong I have no personal interest in this game, but it has plenty there gameplay wise for people that like these kind of RPGs.

You wanted to know what to talk about for us Vita owners, you got it.

 

[JordanN]

So, it's pretty easy to see why moderation is required - all it takes is one or two gifs with one of these girls in it to get the FBI's attention.

When this game launches, there will be a police officer inside every Gamestop ready to to make an arrest.

"I dare you to buy that game son"

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

To be clear we are trying to be as narrow as possible here.

While some might find an obsession with people who are clearly high school girls odd, that's nothing we have an intention of stopping.

People concerned about Senran Kagura or Akiba's Trip for example also need not be worried unless they make a spin-off with girls who are much younger.

Criminal Girls we are talking about a game that revolves around people who are visually little kids and abusing them sexually, not half naked high school girls getting their clothes torn off.

I would like to ask about other topics that generate moral outrage similar to Criminal Girls. To set it, I'm more concerned about the precedence this could set, rather than the actual game itself, but I know some anime threads get derailed due to moral outrage, for something that isn't actually present in comparison to Criminal Girls. How will that be handled?

 

[terrisus]

I attacked the post because it's actually a logical fallacy.

Pointing out your opponent's hypocrisy doesn't weaken their original position. It's poor debate.

You haven't really put up much of a defense here aside from attack me or blindly deny anything I've said. Neither of which I've done.

As I said in response to your edit, linking to a Wikipedia article as an "Aha, I'm right!" is basically an instant end to any sort of meaningful discussion.

And, speaking of meaningful discussion - there was plenty of meaningful discussion that came as a result of my post which you took so much issue with. I'm sorry that you felt the need to attack the post, as opposed to observing the discussion that came as a result of it.

But, anyway, I'm done with this line of discussion, as it clearly adds nothing meaningful to this thread.

 

[Krejlooc]

What in the name of fuck?

It's cool dude, apparently you only see the faintest of child labia in the game. Apparently labia don't count unless they're chiseled into granite.

 

[Vire]

No, that's not how it works. What that is really talking about is digitally, computer made/manipulated photographs of children. Not anime/cartoons.

see this part

Oh, so drawn illustrations of sexually abused children is totally okay. Glad you clarified that...

Do you realize how absolutely ridiculous you sound right now?

 

[benjipwns]

When this game launches, there will be a police officer inside every Gamestop awaiting to to make an arrest.

"I dare you to buy that game son"

why the kids gotta be black

 

[RyougaSaotome]

To be clear we are trying to be as narrow as possible here.

While some might find an obsession with people who are clearly high school girls odd, that's nothing we have an intention of stopping.

People concerned about Senran Kagura or Akiba's Trip for example also need not be worried unless they make a spin-off with girls who are much younger.

Criminal Girls we are talking about a game that revolves around people who are visually little kids and abusing them sexually, not half naked high school girls getting their clothes torn off.

Quoted for truth because I think Criminal Girls is a particularly extreme case in regards to fanservice and those sorts of things.

I think this is for the best in any case, cause ultimately the threads just devolve into people calling other people pedophiles and then those folks saying "NO" and lots of ugliness all around.

 

[Crayons]

Oh, so drawn illustrations of sexually abused children is totally okay. Glad you clarified that...

Do you realize how absolutely ridiculous you sound right now?

I didn't write the law. Go tell them that.

 

[ActuallyHulk]

When this game launches, there will be a police officer inside every Gamestop ready to to make an arrest.

"I dare you to buy that game son"

Out of sheer curiosity, what's the context of the pic? I feel like this was something big that I should have heard of long ago.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Anyone want to take best on how long before Settin gets a permaban?

Cheerfully announcing to the world that you wish for someone to get a permaban is really a shitty forum etiquette to me.

Anyways, still can't believe that the game's getting a US release though, wow.

 

[alstein]

No, that's not how it works. What that is really talking about is digitally, computer made/manipulated photographs of children. Not anime/cartoons.

There was at least one case of someone being arrested and registered as sex offender in the US over 2d art. I remember the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund getting involved in the case (unsure if the conviction got overturned)

Custers revenge was long before there was any real policing of content, I can't say it's a great example for that reason. It was also american made, and the company made several other pornagraphic titles, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.

The question was asked why we didn't see those games in the PS1/PS2 era and did they exist before. I was answering that, and you gave the answer as to why (content guidelines/policing of content, which has slipped this gen for obvious reasons)

 

[Htown]

NISA Already talked with the ESRB, as they mentioned in the forums, so it's safe to assume that it is getting through the ESRB, most probably because it is not child porn as some here mistakenly assume.

It's not child porn, but let's be real - it's aimed at the same audience.

Also:

Do you know the age of consent laws of multiple countries, including Japan?

this is a good one, lol

I would like to ask about other topics that generate moral outrage similar to Criminal Girls. To set it, I'm more concerned about the precedence this could set, rather than the actual game itself, but I know some anime threads get derailed due to moral outrage, for something that isn't actually present in comparison to Criminal Girls. How will that be handled?

mods have already taken the anime thread aside for a talk about this kinda nonsense

 

[kyser73]

GAF is an international forum. Whose age of consent are we going to use to define this limit?

Even though many countries (for example in Europe) have AOCs of 14 or 15, that is accompanied by sub-clauses either about the age of the partner, their role in the world (specifically those who would have some kind of power, so as a teacher) or the ability of the consentee to genuinely understand what they were getting themselves into.

Spain has recently voted to raise its AOC to 16, and there are similar discussions happening in other EU countries. OF course, the ubiquity of long-term sex education in many European countries means that the context of a 14 year old in Europe vs the US (for example) making that decision is very, very different.

 

[terribletwo]

It's cool dude, apparently you only see the faintest of child labia in the game. Apparently labia don't count unless they're chiseled into granite.

As Shakespeare once said, "Let me not to the marriage of true labia admit impediments
Labia is not labia which alters when it American values finds"

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court ruling makes it federal law.

From wiki

Due to the fact that the definition of obscenity differs between states, the legality of lolicon and shotacon depends on the community; in several states, there are clauses that state that for something to be deemed obscene, real harm must be done or the child depicted must be someone that exists in real life, while other areas may specifically allow unrealistic "cartoon" depictions but prohibit more "life-like" depictions. Some states may have heavy penalties on such material but only ban depictions of minors under 16 years of age (Arizona and New Jersey), while others may decide to ban it altogether.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

That game looks like the equivalent of an exploitation/snuff film insofar as a video game can get.

I doubt there's much more to it than shock value so I don't see a problem with restricting publicity/discussion for those types of games.

Snuff with Fictional characters?

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Oh boy, linking to a Wikipedia article to say "Actually I'm right."
Yeah, I'm definitely done with that particular line of discussion.

I linked a more reputable source above if Wikipedia doesn't work for you. It's not a hard thing to find.

http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Tu quoque
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
http://www.psychologyconcepts.com/appeal-to-hypocrisy-fallacy/
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=7781
http://www.cityethics.org/node/518
http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/13-ad-hominem-tu-quoque
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/tu-quoque/
http://grammar.about.com/od/tz/g/tuquoqueterm.htm

That's the first page of search results.

As I said in response to your edit, linking to a Wikipedia article as an "Aha, I'm right!" is basically an instant end to any sort of meaningful discussion.

And, speaking of meaningful discussion - there was plenty of meaningful discussion that came as a result of my post which you took so much issue with. I'm sorry that you felt the need to attack the post, as opposed to observing the discussion that came as a result of it.

But, anyway, I'm done with this line of discussion, as it clearly adds nothing meaningful to this thread.

I think it does, because you're using it as a springboard for what I believe is a flawed discussion in the first place. So it's incredibly relevant and topical.

A Wikipedia link seems like a fairly arbitrary line in the sand when the topic's all over the web.

 

[Suzushiiro]

Ephebophilia isn't the same as pedophilia.

While technically true, unless you're a teenager the former is only slightly less creepy.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Dat ad hominem.

You asked for my argument, that's it. If you want to discuss cartoon child porn with other enthusiasts, learn Japanese and get on it.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

mods have already taken the anime thread aside for a talk about this kinda nonsense

For reference, I'm not talking about AnimeGAF, I'm well aware of that, and I'm okay with it.

I mean more for news threads on Anime, like the Sailor Moon Crystal thread that was thrown under a bus because someone mentioned wanting an art style similar to a different show.

 

[El Sloth]

As a result of a few different industry trends, we're seeing an increasing number of games being released and localized that focus their appeal around sexualized interaction with young children, or characters who appear to be young children. A few years ago this type of content typically wouldn't be allowed by Western platform-holders at all; today it's getting published with light censorship.

Threads about these games get creepy very, very quickly. They tend to bring out discussion which is, in and of itself, bannable due to inappropriate or offensive sexual content. They frequently involve content that cannot actually be discussed or posted without breaking our NSFW rules. And even if neither of these happens, they often degenerate into angry discussions about censorship, pedophilia, or child pornography. Frankly, we don't like moderating these threads, and we don't think they reflect well on the community.

We're not trying for philosophical rigor here. Maybe lots of people enjoy GTA in ways that can defensibly be understood as being just as creepy as something like Criminal Girls. But that doesn't dominate threads about GTA, those threads don't turn into arguments about murder-philia, and they don't trigger the same kind of fundamental revulsion. So we're not saying these games can't exist or even that people can't enjoy them. We just don't want them /here/.

We're not going to draw an absolute sharp boundary on this. We just want to make it clear going forward that games which focus on the sexualization of children are not appropriate for our community. Criminal Girls is out. Games that include creepy elements as one small part are okay -- Fire Emblem isn't inappropriate to discuss even though we don't want long thread derails about its more unpleasant fanservice elements.

Let me start by stating that everyone has their own individual set of values, and we do understand that. Our goal with the policy going forward is not necessarily to single out any group of fans as outright reprehensible people for liking video games, particularly not games that are released legally and rated by the ESRB. Further, there are valid arguments to consider in terms of why other morally dubious content seemingly gets a pass.

Having said that, though, I want to also state that the consensus on the moderation team here is that -- fair or not -- we really have next to no desire to have games that feature sexual content starring characters that either are or appear to be underrage given a platform here. We have even less desire (i.e. none) to actually have to read and moderate these threads. As such, these threads will often go unmoderated.

This is a problem. It's a problem for everyone. It's a problem for fans of the game that actually want to talk about the game and aren't necessarily there just to oogle questionable artwork. It's a problem when imagery gets posted that goes beyond what we consider in good taste and we aren't there to react. It's a problem for us in that we get complaints from people on either side of the issue and feel a sense of responsibility to react, but don't really know what to do. Do we go in to promote civility in the conversation, or do we go in to crack down on what we deem to be inappropriate sexual content that features characters that appear to be minors? I think by and large, several (perhaps most) just opt out of doing anything because we simply want no part of the conversation. Frankly, the less I personally know about Monster Monpiece or Criminal Girls, the better.

But that's not appropriate as an official policy. It's confusing for you, and it's even confusing for us. So the consensus we've reached in regards to these games that prominently feature underage girl fan-service is to simply not give them a platform here. That's not to say that we all out and out condemn the very existence of these products and the fans that would play and want to talk about them. But we just honestly feel that there is no place for it here.

As always, if you have questions about a particular game, or a facet of the conversation that you are unclear of, you are more than welcome to PM moderation with your comments and concerns.

Right. I'm just trying to make it painstakingly clear that a lot of suggestions on "how to keep threads on track" ignore that this kind of activity takes a not-insignificant amount of effort. It's not a trivial thing that's being asked of unpaid staff. When you couple that with the fact that the content in question isn't something we're eager to defend, and it becomes clear why these threads go to shit for a myriad of reasons. I'm not saying that there's not an argument to be made for letting the discussions go on and banning people on both sides -- fans for posting content that is against the ToS on one and people trolling with ad hominemens on the other. But that takes a lot of effort that we don't want to expend. Perhaps there's a moderator on our staff that wouldn't mind being the fanservice thread mod, but I don't want the job. And several of the other people on staff don't want it either.

Thank you guys for these thoughtful responses. I feel like I understand the reasons behind the your decisions a lot clearer. I can especially sympathize with not wanting to even enter the threads to have to moderate them. Especially being unpaid.

I mean, I'm still opposed to it, I subscribe to U.S. legal view on speech and all that jazz, but I also recognize what I or any other member things doesn't mean diddly in the end this being a private forum and all. I suppose I just hold GAF to too high a standard.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't feel that the ESRB signing off on a game, or Sony signing off on it, or Gamestop signing off on it, should necessarily have any bearing on how the administration of GAF should or should not be policing it.

Repeated claims of "It's on store shelves, it should be able to be talked about here" draws a line of logic I'm not sure I follow. This isn't really the Democratic Order of Video Games here and the mods thus far have been pretty clear and genuine about their stance on this particular game. Until Gamestop buys the board and changes the rules, I don't think it being purchasable thus it being acceptable to discuss here is an argument that makes a lot of sense.

 

[s_mirage]

Oh wait, I think I do remember SuchiPai stuff. It's weird, because pretty much everything else was censored. I wonder how some of them got away with it. ADVs knew to stay as "clean" as possible, so what made mahjong games different?

For the earlier ones I've got no idea why the VNs were cut. More mass market appeal? Sega did later ban red labels for nudity so even mahjong games were censored after a point.

 

[JordanN]

Out of sheer curiosity, what's the context of the pic? I feel like this was something big that I should have heard of long ago.

It was a promotion between the Ottawa police and a shopping centre to give 25 needy children $200 to buy stuff.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Photos+Cops+kids+shopping/9275072/story.html