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Will discussion of certain games be banned on Neogaf from here on out?

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why the kids gotta be black
All of this frightful talk of the sexualization and abuse of young girls in a video game and someone STILL had to bring race into it! Unbelievable!
It was promotion between the Ottawa police and a shopping centre to give 25 needy children $200 to buy stuff.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Photos+Cops+kids+shopping/9275072/story.html
So the kids involved in this charity event all got ripped off by a Gamestop charging $54.99 for a used copy of Call of Duty? That's just inhumane punishment.
 
No, that's not how it works. What that is really talking about is digitally, computer made/manipulated photographs of children. Not anime/cartoons.

see this part

And it was later clarified to include ANY image or creation of a child of sexually obscene nature.

Trust me - Kiddie Porn/Kiddie Anime/Kiddie Hentai/whatever you want to call it is illegal in the US.

You do NOT want it on your PC if you live under US jurisdiction.
 

Yuuichi

Member
No, that's not how it works. What that is really talking about is digitally, computer made/manipulated photographs of children. Not anime/cartoons.

see this part

Cheerfully announcing to the world that you wish for someone to get a permaban is really a shitty forum etiquette to me.

Anyways, still can't believe that the game's getting a US release though, wow.

I was just as shocked when it happened, I can't imagine that the game did any more than 10-25k lifetime in japan (bad-ish), which makes me really wonder why they're even bothering. I guess NISA knows their audience?
 
I think the discussion of the game is "banned" because the mods know that by page 10 any thread about it will be about members throwing around the world pedophile to everyone that enjoys the game.

So should we say good bye to Etrian Odyssey?

bro, you don't even joke about this shit!
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I would like to ask about other topics that generate moral outrage similar to Criminal Girls. To set it, I'm more concerned about the precedence this could set, rather than the actual game itself, but I know some anime threads get derailed due to moral outrage, for something that isn't actually present in comparison to Criminal Girls. How will that be handled?
In general the idea would not be to ban games where there is moral outrage unless pretty much no mod feels there's any other avenue given the content of the game.

Like we had giant threads about moral outrage over Fire Emblem and Bravely Default, but I think it's pretty obvious that there would be fruitful discussion about other elements of the games.

Just consider that the goal here would actively be to bar as few games as possible and the developer really needs to work hard at making something that could cross the line.
 

unbias

Member
Even though many countries (for example in Europe) have AOCs of 14 or 15, that is accompanied by sub-clauses either about the age of the partner, their role in the world (specifically those who would have some kind of power, so as a teacher) or the ability of the consentee to genuinely understand what they were getting themselves into.

Spain has recently voted to raise its AOC to 16, and there are similar discussions happening in other EU countries. OF course, the ubiquity of long-term sex education in many European countries means that the context of a 14 year old in Europe vs the US (for example) making that decision is very, very different.

I think age of consent(being able to have sex with someone classified as an adult) averages at 16 at the youngest. I think taking the average as the base for the youngest you are allowed to sexually pander to, without getting your thread locked, is a fairly easy rule to follow, I would imagine. Like, there is a clear difference between Fire Emblem type pandering and dating sim type pandering.
 

Ryuukan

Member
And it was later clarified to include ANY image or creation of a child of sexually obscene nature.

Trust me - Kiddie Porn/Kiddie Anime/Kiddie Hentai/whatever you want to call it is illegal in the US.

You do NOT want it on your PC if you live under US jurisdiction.

How much were you fined for it?
 

docbon

Member
lVFhjZl.jpg
 
I will say, I could care less about Criminal Girls (to much pandering and troubling undertones) but is truly worrisome that threads are getting closed.
 
In general the idea would not be to ban games where there is moral outrage unless pretty much no mod feels there's any other avenue given the content of the game.

Like we had giant threads about moral outrage over Fire Emblem and Bravely Default, but I think it's pretty obvious that there would be fruitful discussion about other elements of the games.

Just consider that the goal here would actively be to bar as few games as possible and the developer really needs to work hard at making something that could cross the line.

I guess I'll concede and just watch how things go from this point on.
 

Kinyou

Member
To be clear we are trying to be as narrow as possible here.

While some might find an obsession with people who are clearly high school girls odd, that's nothing we have an intention of stopping.

People concerned about Senran Kagura or Akiba's Trip for example also need not be worried unless they make a spin-off with girls who are much younger.

Criminal Girls we are talking about a game that revolves around people who are visually little kids and abusing them sexually, not half naked high school girls getting their clothes torn off.
Gotcha.

Just watched the trailer on ign and it's fairly apparent that this is quite a step above senran kagura, dead or alive etc.
 

terrisus

Member
Thank you guys for these thoughtful responses. I feel like I understand the reasons behind the your decisions a lot clearer. I can especially sympathize with not wanting to even enter the threads to have to moderate them. Especially being unpaid.

I mean, I'm still opposed to it, I subscribe to U.S. legal view on speech and all that jazz, but I also recognize what I or any other member things doesn't mean diddly in the end this being a private forum and all. I suppose I just hold GAF to too high a standard.

Yeah, I would think most of us here are understanding of the fact that GAF is a private forum, and free to disallow discussion of any games or topics that it wishes. If it wants to disallow discussion of Virtual Boy games, and deny the existence of the NGage, it's certainly well within its rights to do so.

As you said with starting the thread, I think it's a worthwhile matter to discuss, but at the end of the day, GAF rules go.
 
Thank you guys for these thoughtful responses. I feel like I understand the reasons behind the your decisions a lot clearer. I can especially sympathize with not wanting to even enter the threads to have to moderate them. Especially being unpaid.

I mean, I'm still opposed to it, I subscribe to U.S. legal view on speech and all that jazz, but I also recognize what I or any other member things doesn't mean diddly in the end this being a private forum and all. I suppose I just hold GAF to too high a standard.

I can literally feel the mods rolling their eyes.
 

Mortemis

Banned
I don't feel that the ESRB signing off on a game, or Sony signing off on it, or Gamestop signing off on it, should necessarily have any bearing on how the administration of GAF should or should not be policing it.

Repeated claims of "It's on store shelves, it should be able to be talked about here" draws a line of logic I'm not sure I follow. This isn't really the Democratic Order of Video Games here and the mods thus far have been pretty clear and genuine about their stance on this particular game. Until Gamestop buys the board and changes the rules, I don't think it being purchasable thus it being acceptable to discuss here is an argument that makes a lot of sense.

Basically. If most of a community doesn't want this shit, and the moderation team doesn't want to mod this shit, such shit shouldn't be discussed. I don't even see what's so extreme about it like some said.
 

Sakura

Member
You wanted to know what to talk about for us Vita owners, you got it.

I was just asking because there are lots of Vita games with similar levels of fanservice... Criminal Girls is a JRPG where you level up characters, traverse dungeons, have random battles, buy sell items, etc just like many other games. There also is fanservice bits with young looking girls, but again, many other Vita games have this. But it is not all the game is about, like lots of posts in this thread would have you believe. If I am told a game like Criminal Girls is not allowed, then that means a number of other Vita games may not be allowed either.
 

Settin

Member
You asked for my argument, that's it. If you want to discuss cartoon child porn with other enthusiasts, learn Japanese and get on it.
More ad hominem garbage. You assume I'm a child porn enthusiast instead of defending the ability of other GAF members to discuss the game as long as it doesn't break the currently established rules.
 

Vire

Member
I didn't imply an escalation. Save the snark for when it's actually applicable.

My point was that the moderation for NeoGAF didn't suddenly turn into some utilitarian dictatorship overnight, they are acting in good faith here and will continue to do so in future cases.

I wouldn't worry about it - unless you are into child porn.
 
1-3 more posts probably.

I think you'll last a little longer than that.

I would like to know why you are so supportive/defensive of this?

I am of Japanese decent. At an early age I migrated to America. Maybe I was too young to get indoctrinated by the Japanese culture of eroge of young girls, in any case I don't get the appeal.

Being raised basically as an American I can understand the "Free Speech" angle but I find very creepy. To me championing this game is akin to becoming a supporter of NAMBLA.
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Because slandering and defamation a whole group of people is wrong.
You can tell me that they are a horrible company due to having a history of bad gameplay or story, and that is fine since you are talking about theirs works.

But to tell NIS, and the people working there that they are a bunch of pedophile is wrong.
As well, you don't need to make such a sweep generalization of the men/women working there that they don't have a moral compass because of theirs company product.

I hate JP Morgan and the London scandal, but I don't make generalization that all the men/women working in that company are a bunch of mini-demons and morally corrupted because of their work relationship with JP Morgan.

In my first post I clearly stated I felt the blame was to be placed on the main creative designers, and that the lower workers had no choice due to needing money. I was not demonizing the entire company, but rather those who were responsible for this game being made in the first place.

I'm not sure why you're getting so worked up over my comments. I don't care if I'm slandering a gaming company, all I said was I think the main "creative minds" behind these games are probably pedophiles.
 

unbias

Member
I will say, I could care less about Criminal Girls (to much pandering and troubling undertones) but is truly worrisome that threads are getting closed.

Watcha mean? Threads get closed all the time(Tumblr sucks thread in the off topic section for instance). As long as there is a policy being introduced, nothing really to worry about.(And the mods have pretty much clarified what that new policy is).
 

MormaPope

Banned
Is this a new occurrence for Gaf as a whole? Where a game released at retail could incite creepiness? Pretty strange that a game like this is a retail release. Not really complaining, its interesting to say the least.
 

darkside31337

Tomodachi wa Mahou
And it was later clarified to include ANY image or creation of a child of sexually obscene nature.

Trust me - Kiddie Porn/Kiddie Anime/Kiddie Hentai/whatever you want to call it is illegal in the US.

You do NOT want it on your PC if you live under US jurisdiction.

Its never been "clarified". Lawmakers and federal judges have simply continued to ignore the rulings established by the Supreme Court in cases like United States v. Williams.

Scalia's majority opinion makes it as clear as day as to what constitutes as child pornography ("A crime is committed only when the speaker believes or intends the listener to believe that the subject of the proposed transaction depicts real children." is literally a line in his majority opinion)

In the case of Criminal Girls it doesn't even come close. But you are right - in practicality those rulings don't mean much because that shit ain't gonna fly with most judges or juries.
 

Settin

Member
I think you'll last a little longer than that.

I would like to know why you are so supportive/defensive of this?

I am of Japanese decent. At an early age I migrated to America. Maybe I was too young to get indoctrinated by the Japanese culture of eroge of young girls, in any case I don't get the appeal.

Being raised basically as an American I can understand the "Free Speech" angle but I find very creepy. To me championing this game is akin to becoming a supporter of NAMBLA.
It's an American thing. I don't agree with it, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
 
A US Marshall can make an arrest without any local jurisdiction and file federal charges at-will.

With the PROTECT Act being ruled unconstitutional on a federal level, it has become a local jurisdiction issue.

Not to say an arrest can't be made. The charges would just be thrown out in certain states, as they have been in the past.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
I will say, I could care less about Criminal Girls (to much pandering and troubling undertones) but is truly worrisome that threads are getting closed.

UUUUUUUUUUUUUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :p

Anyways, it has been stated here that "pandering" games like Akiba's Strip will be allowed, and blatantly exploitative games such as DoA is fine too, but don't you agree that a line must be drawn at some point?

I am a big advocate of "letting people enjoy what they enjoy" but... even I get uncomfortable after searching what this game is all about.

Also, it's a shame that horrific terms like "child porn enthusiast/lovers" are being thrown around so casually here :/ Well, it's only natural, I guess.
 

Yuuichi

Member
I was just asking because there are lots of Vita games with similar levels of fanservice... Criminal Girls is a JRPG where you level up characters, traverse dungeons, have random battles, buy sell items, etc just like many other games. There also is fanservice bits with young looking girls, but again, many other Vita games have this. But it is not all the game is about, like lots of posts in this thread would have you believe. If I am told a game like Criminal Girls is not allowed, then that means a number of other Vita games may not be allowed either.

I'd love for you to name some titles that are actually worth my time that fit such a criteria; and aside from that, it's not the fact that the game has no merits beyond fanservice, it's that the discussion (if you're brazen enough to call it that, often read more like a shouting match) that stems as a result was often uncivil, circular, and separate from the merits of the game, something that a board focused on gaming could do without.
 
I cannot even begin to describe to you how unwilling I am to use my own free, unpaid time going into threads about games that sexualize children and banning their detractors so the fans of the games can discuss them in peace.



Something being acceptable to own and enjoy in privacy does not make it suitable for all public fora, just like it's legal for someone to go to town on their spouse in their bedroom but not at the park.

You. I like you. If people question why this content is not allowed after reading this because of their false notions of freedom on online forums, I don't know what will help them.

That being said, you are easily the most respectable guy in the office. I guarantee you are a loving father and a caring husband.
 

Quasar

Member
Cliffnotes: Japan's economy has slumped into recession in recent years (well, for a long while now, actually) and by doing so the spending power has shifted. In the "good old days" Japan didn't make content for the world, they made content for Japan, and it just so happened that what sold well in Japan sold well everywhere. The slumping economy has made it so that luxury spending by the common class has become extremely low.

This doesn't affect the Otaku, Yankii, and other marginalized minority spending habbits, however, as their spending on their hobbies has always been disproportionally high. However, with these groups still spending a lot of money, and the average person not spending very much at all, it has meant that these marginalized groups now control Japan's output. Their tastes are catered to predominantly by the entertainment industry where they spend the most money.

Hence, what Japan puts out now, only vocal minorities in Japan actually enjoy.

I don't know how much I buy that. Alot of it to me seems like much easier access to content worldwide via the internet. And I feel western consumers of Japanese media who are most vocal on the internet kind of self select what kind of Japanese media dominates the discussion.

Add to that you have a section of Japanese games not looked on Japanese at all (various first party Nintendo games for instance).

As for Criminal Girls, I just feel the Barbara Streisand effect is in operation.
 
I can understand the view of the mods and admins. It would be incredibly overwhelming and quite possibly a mind-straining task to have to moderate those topics that involve this subject. And I also agree that GAF has the right to ban which ever games/subjects they don't want shown or discussed on they're forum.
Personally, I think this game is better off not being talked about. I think it's horrid, and shouldn't have a place here.
 
More ad hominem garbage. You assume I'm a child porn enthusiast instead of defending the ability of other GAF members to discuss the game as long as it doesn't break the currently established rules.

There are new rules being established in this thread, and by the closure of the thread in question. So you're either on board with those decisions or not, and if you're not then your reasons are completely open for scrutiny.
 

unbias

Member
It's an American thing. I don't agree with it, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Devils advocate isnt an American thing, it's a "I like to argue", thing. I think most people do it on message boards(I've done it myself a decent amount). Still though, being this devils advocate... Well, very hard to do and not come out looking like a bad guy.
 
I was just as shocked when it happened, I can't imagine that the game did any more than 10-25k lifetime in japan (bad-ish), which makes me really wonder why they're even bothering. I guess NISA knows their audience?

There's a market for it, unfortunately. It comes partly from the culture certain systems have cultivated and the acceptance of the fanbase to try anything as long as publishers keep bringing games to their system of choice.

Plus the people who buy these kinds of games are the types to evangelize it on message boards and spend $100 for the extra special edition with the waterproof poster because you-know-why. It's easy money for simple reasons.

I've had a bug up my ass about NISA for years now and the downward slide I saw them going down has been pretty much continuing unabated. I am shocked this is the thing that makes everyone go "Wait, what."
 

kyser73

Member
Thank you guys for these thoughtful responses. I feel like I understand the reasons behind the your decisions a lot clearer. I can especially sympathize with not wanting to even enter the threads to have to moderate them. Especially being unpaid.

I mean, I'm still opposed to it, I subscribe to U.S. legal view on speech and all that jazz, but I also recognize what I or any other member things doesn't mean diddly in the end this being a private forum and all. I suppose I just hold GAF to too high a standard.

You seem to be confusing the right to freedom of speech in public places with private.

If you're in a private establishment - say a bar - and you start saying something the bar manager takes offense to, they can throw you out as the 'Right of admission is reserved'.

Same goes for internet forums. This isn't a public place, its the equivalent of that bar - in fact, GAF, being a members only forum which doesn't allow guest accounts, is more akin to a private club that people can listen too.

I've seen this argument on a number of forums over the years, and it just comes down to a misapprehension of the concepts of private and public space.
 
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