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[Toma]

I love the game BECAUSE its so similar to MtG. Hope this wont affect them much.

 

[WarMacheen]

MTGO is a hot steaming pile of dog shit, regardless of their claims, valid or not.

 

[Phades]

I was expecting only a few similarities, since Wizards of the Coast has historically been very nasty with IP protection.

The rules of Hex are literally just Magic. This is basically Chinese offbrand Magic.

• Each player starts with 7 cards (Option to mulligan) and 20 health, with the objective to get the opponents' health to 0.
• Resources are lands.
• Resource payments are mana costs.
• Threshold requirements are color requirements.
• Troops are Creatures.
• Actions are Sorceries.
• Quick Actions are Instants.
• Constants are Enchantments.
• Artifacts are... Well, Artifacts and have no threshold requirement like Artifacts have no color requirements.
• Attack is power.
• Defense is toughness.
• Combat mechanics are lifted wholesale.
• Colors are Blood (Black), Wild (Green), Diamond (White), Ruby (Red), and Sapphire (Blue).

This seems no different than comparing fighting games together without comparing actual move sets of each individual character, how the timing works, etc.

 

[mrklaw]

But when you combine mechanics to form an IP, and it is nearly identical to Magic, then what?

You might think it could work like music. You can't copyright a single note, but enough specific notes in a specific order, and you can.

I don't think it is unreasonable to have something similar for software

 

[Toxi]

Couple of reasons:

1. They have made cards with mechanics that are basically impossible in a non-digital game. Random effects, changing one card to another, summoning cards after destroyed, etc.

Honest question, have you played Magic?

 

[Shrennin]

I was expecting only a few similarities, since Wizards of the Coast has historically been very nasty with IP protection.

The rules of Hex are literally just Magic. This is basically Chinese offbrand Magic.

• Each player starts with 7 cards (Option to mulligan) and 20 health, with the objective to get the opponents' health to 0.
• Resources are lands.
• Resource payments are mana costs.
• Threshold requirements are color requirements.
• Troops are Creatures.
• Actions are Sorceries.
• Quick Actions are Instants.
• Constants are Enchantments.
• Artifacts are... Well, Artifacts and have no threshold requirement like Artifacts have no color requirements.
• Attack is power.
• Defense is toughness.
• Combat mechanics are lifted wholesale.
• Colors are Blood (Black), Wild (Green), Diamond (White), Ruby (Red), and Sapphire (Blue).

For one, threshold works nothing like the color requirements of Magic. Secondly, you can't copyright mechanics (and Hex's mechanics are named differently).

 

[Karak]

God Wizards once again. That company is one of the worst offenders of bullying others I have ever had the sad experience of working around. Even back in the day when I had the horror of writing articles and bits for them.

That being said this particular instance actually and completely surprisingly appears justified in some aspects BUT it can't be the mechanics as they can't be copyrighted.

 

[Timeaisis]

One of many, many magic clones. This one is just successful (in KS, anyway) and going to be online. I don't blame Wizards for their action, although I don't entirely agree.

 

[charlequin]

So you're fine with this game being an almost direct copy of MTG?

I'm fine with "inspired" works, but I draw the line at "basically the same thing with a new coat of paint"

They have a distinct resource system and they've focused their development on mechanics that aren't possible in paper cards. The actual cards themselves are also different; the balance is pegged to a different point and the Hex set we have a spoiler for doesn't overlap all that directly with any particular Magic set.

It's certainly true that this is far and away the closest to Magic anyone's actually gotten; not so much in the play mechanics (which quite a few games overlap with in big ways) but in the choice to break cards down into an almost-identical set of color factions.

 

[QisTopTier]

Honestly all that extra stuff is certainly exciting and why I'm interested in Hex, but I mean

The fundamental mechanics are really damn identical.

Those two cards are pretty damn different imo as far as card games go. Pyrite shits all over the other one. Murder is best example. But murder was changed a while back to where it's now different from MTG murder. 1 purple/black 3 cost, can't destroy artifact troops

 

[The Technomancer]

This seems no different than comparing fighting games together without comparing actual move sets of each individual character, how the timing works, etc.

Keyword mechanics are maybe the most damning thing. Again, I'm not sure if I'm on board with this lawsuit, but when you have

Flying -> Flight
Trample -> Crush
Defender -> Defensive
Lifelink -> Lifedrain
Hexproof -> Spellshield

and crucially Swift Strike -> First Strike

...yeah, the "movesets" are similar

 

[Antilurker77]

This seems more like WotC feeling threatened more than anything -- Hex is similar, yes, but not a direct copy. It has some of the same mechanics (all named differently and some even work differently like the resource system using threshold), but it expands upon it and utilizes the digital nature a whole lot more (since Magic isn't a digital game). Also, I've heard the patents have apparently expired, too.

No, it is a direct copy. They didn't just copy "some" of the mechanics, they copied ALL but 1 of them. The resource system (which isn't even that different, just slightly altered) and the hero ability are the only two things that separate the two games. Everything else is identical. This is such a blatant reskin I'm surpised they've lasted this long.

 

[Timeaisis]

Wow, this is even more identical than I thought. Jeez.

 

[Mister Zimbu]

Those two cards are pretty damn different imo as far as card games go. Pyrite shits all over the other one. Murder is best example.

"Pay mana to kill creature" isn't exactly a groundbreaking, creative concept.

This seems no different than comparing fighting games together without comparing actual move sets of each individual character, how the timing works, etc.

This is spot on.

 

[SeventhSon]

There are literal clones of Dungeons & Dragons out there (also owned by WotC), that restate the rules in their own words, that are 100% legal. This game should be fine.

 

[Toxi]

EDIT: Oh, there's "Artifact Troops". Was thinking that at least they wouldn't copy that.

For one, threshold works nothing like the color requirements of Magic.

Except, you know, that's exactly what it is. You need two Re-Sorry, Ruby resources to play Te'taka, Orc Gladiator. Since Rubies are basically Mountains...

Secondly, you can't copyright mechanics (and Hex's mechanics are named differently).

I don't disagree with this.

 

[The Technomancer]

Those two cards are pretty damn different imo as far as card games go. Pyrite shits all over the other one. Murder is best example. But murder was changed a while back to where it's now different from MTG murder. 1 purple/black 3 cost, can't destroy artifact troops

My point with those two cards wasn't really that they were identical so much as they showcased identical rules substrates, with the way they use mana, have activated abilities, sacrifice, "deal damage" in a modal way to creatures or players, are "artifacts", etc. I've dabbled with a lot of card games too, and I've seen a lot of ways that resource management and ability activation and such are implemented and yeah, its Magic.

I actually wish they hadn't made it so Magic derivative because, like I said, all the other stuff is super exciting.

 

[Justice_Bolt]

There are difference between the 2 games. A lot of cards in hex are only possible in this game and will never happen in a game like magic. Also hex will have the whole PVE , Dungeons, Raids ect.

 

[Shrennin]

No, it is a direct copy. They didn't just copy "some" of the mechanics, they copied ALL but 1 of them. The resource system (which isn't even that different, just slightly altered) and the hero ability are the only two things that separate the two games. Everything else is identical. This is such a blatant reskin I'm surpised they've lasted this long.

How about...just to name some more:

(1) The all digital nature (there is no physical presence of Hex, which I think is a major defense for Crypto)
(2) The PVE system
(3) The digital card effects (of which there are many)
(4) It's trying to be an MMO (so all the other stuff that are associated typically with an MMO are realized in Hex).

Also, the PVE system, MMO nature, and the digital card effects are basically summarized into the most basic of forms. There's a lot of stuff included in those two that makes Hex distinctly different alone.

 

[charlequin]

You might think it could work like music. You can't copyright a single note, but enough specific notes in a specific order, and you can.

You might think that, but you'd be wrong. Game mechanics are very explicitly not protected by copyright regardless of the complexity or uniqueness of their arrangement, and they can only be protected by patent individually when they are novel (e.g. Wizards' patent on tapping.)

I mean, it's certainly reasonable to debate the moral culpability here (I am quite confident that a copyright regime that drastically overprotects most forms of content but provides zero protection to game rules is not correct) but under the law there really is no case on the mechanical point; someone is allowed to clone the underlying rules of a game.

Lol it's not even close to a "Chinese-level" blatant ripoff. They are trying to claim the plot is similar (it's not even close), I think they mentioned the physical size of the cards (it's a digital game), and they are also claiming that they could have reasonably expected the $2 million dollars in revenue that Crypto got in the Kickstarter.

I dunno, if people thought they'd actually get what was promised WotC could pretty trivially raise $2 million for a "make a Magic Online that isn't total fucking rancid garbage" Kickstarter.

 

[QisTopTier]

Can't do this in Magic

or this

or this

There are plenty of things that are different in Hex compared to Magic. The base attack system and abilities are similar though.

 

[Toxi]

There are difference between the 2 games. A lot of cards in hex are only possible in this game and will never happen in a game like magic. Also hex will have the whole PVE , Dungeons, Raids ect.

Ironically, Magic started getting its own PvE element with the Game Day challenge decks with Theros.

 

[charlequin]

Except, you know, that's exactly what it is. You need two Re-Sorry, Ruby resources to play Te'taka, Orc Gladiator. Since Rubies are basically Mountains...

You don't tap resources for mana, you just have to meet a threshold. You could play two red and one green resources, then play three one-threshold green cards in the same turn under this system, and it's noticeably easier to play multicolor decks in Hex because of this. It really is the one system that's significantly different from Magic's implementation.

 

[Bluth54]

This isn't the first time Wizards of the Coast has gone after a Kickstarter game, except that one was even more stupid.

 

[Phades]

Keyword mechanics are maybe the most damning thing. Again, I'm not sure if I'm on board with this lawsuit, but when you have

Flying -> Flight
Trample -> Crush
Defender -> Defensive
Lifelink -> Lifedrain
Hexproof -> Spellshield

and crucially Swift Strike -> First Strike

...yeah, the "movesets" are similar

Man, if folks had these kinds of arguments when games like fatal fury, mortal kombat, or killer instinct were released, what a world this would have been...

Same world would have seen no other FPS game developed by any company except Id software.

There are literal clones of Dungeons & Dragons out there (also owned by WotC), that restate the rules in their own words, that are 100% legal. This game should be fine.

D20 systems of the world unite!

 

[Aureon]

This seems no different than comparing fighting games together without comparing actual move sets of each individual character, how the timing works, etc.

The 'timing' (Turn structure, priority structure, combat structure, stack structure) is 100% the same.
It's so much of a clone that you could remove Champions and Threshold, and basically play with magic cards in the hex rule framework. If that's not a chinese-style copy, i don't know what's one.
Still, gameplay mechanics (As many, many WoW clones have clearly demonstrated) are not grounds for a copyright lawsuit, so this will probably get dismissed.

Can't do this in Magic

There are plenty of things that are different in Hex compared to Magic. The base attack system and abilities are similar though.

Actually, you can. This is funny, because it's actually a known scrapped mechanic.

 

[Phades]

The 'timing' (Turn structure, priority structure, combat structure, stack structure) is 100% the same.
It's so much of a clone that you could remove Champions and Threshold, and basically play with magic cards in the hex rule framework. If that's not a chinese-style copy, i don't know what's one.
Still, gameplay mechanics (As many, many WoW clones have clearly demonstrated) are not grounds for a copyright lawsuit, so this will probably get dismissed.



Actually, you can. This is funny, because it's actually a known scrapped mechanic.

You announce phases in a video game? I'm not familiar with hex, but that doesn't seem right.

Sorry, but the last time I played MTG there were many effect timings with rulings that required such things. I seriously doubt that anything near that exists here.

If you want to start gutting systems until they are identical, go right ahead, but then everything in every genre starts to look exactly the same at that point.

 

[Toxi]

You don't tap resources for mana, you just have to meet a threshold. You could play two red and one green resources, then play three one-threshold green cards in the same turn under this system, and it's noticeably easier to play multicolor decks in Hex because of this. It really is the one system that's significantly different from Magic's implementation.

I see. It's still extremely similar, but I'll give them that.

Actually, you can. This is funny, because it's actually a known scrapped mechanic.

Now I'm wondering which Magic mechanic you're talking about. It's not phasing. Is it Wish mechanics like Riftsweeper? It's not phasing.

 

[The Technomancer]

Man, if folks had these kinds of arguments when games like fatal fury, mortal kombat, or killer instinct were released, what a world this would have been...

Same world would have seen no other FPS game developed by any company except Id software.

Except its not like other card games are running into the same issue. Magic did not define the one, broad, generic implementation that other card games must follow. I've played dozens of them, they have their similarities and their differences.

 

[charlequin]

D20 systems of the world unite!

The D20 system thing is pretty different, since the term "D20" itself was a licensed trademark of WotC, while most of the rules content of D&D3 was exposed under a free (with limitations) license called OGL.

Eventually some people started making the bet that they could ignore all the proffered license terms, clone elements of D&D rules and get away with it, but nobody was really willing to try when the D20 stuff first started.

You announce phases in a video game?

Hex actually duplicated almost exactly the MTGO implementation where you can set phases to pause at and otherwise it bypasses them automatically.

 

[Antilurker77]

Can't do this in Magic

You can easily do this within the confines of Magic (shuffling tokens into the deck). It's clunky, but possible.

There are plenty of things that are different in Hex compared to Magic. The base attack system and abilities are similar though.

I wanted to emphasize this. It's not "similar". It's identical, which is the basis for this lawsuit.

 

[Discobird]

Still, gameplay mechanics (As many, many WoW clones have clearly demonstrated) are not grounds for a copyright lawsuit, so this will probably get dismissed.

Except the complaint alleges a host of other types of copyright infringement along with trade dress and patent claims, none of which go away if the court throws out the game mechanics portion of the copyright claim.

 

[Megalosaro]

Fuck Wizards of the Coast. I lost all respect for them when they divided the core rulebooks into multiple volumes

 

[Toxi]

You can easily do this within the confines of Magic (shuffling tokens into the deck). It's clunky, but possible.

Tokens disappear after they go into a zone other than play. See Echoing Truth and co.

 

[The Technomancer]

You can easily do this within the confines of Magic (shuffling tokens into the deck). It's clunky, but possible.

Hex has plenty of genuinely innovative stuff in it, the permanent changes thing being perhaps the most interesting

 

[michaelius]

Those two cards are pretty damn different imo as far as card games go. Pyrite shits all over the other one. Murder is best example. But murder was changed a while back to where it's now different from MTG murder. 1 purple/black 3 cost, can't destroy artifact troops

Sounds a bit familiar hmm where have i seen that

 

[Armaros]

Sounds a bit familiar hmm where have i seen that

So if another CCG made a 'different' variation of a creature kill card, then WotC cant used it because....?

Again its arguing mechanics of a concept that has limited design potential.

 

[The Technomancer]

So if another CCG made a 'different' variation of a creature kill card, then WotC cant used it because....?

Again its arguing mechanics of a concept that has limited design potential.

Its really not. There's amazing diversity in the CCG scene.

 

[QisTopTier]

Sounds a bit familiar hmm where have i seen that

Not the same, just similar.

 

[Antilurker77]

How about...just to name some more:

(1) The all digital nature (there is no physical presence of Hex, which I think is a major defense for Crypto)
(2) The PVE system
(3) The digital card effects (of which there are many)
(4) It's trying to be an MMO (so all the other stuff that are associated typically with an MMO are realized in Hex).

Also, the PVE system, MMO nature, and the digital card effects are basically summarized into the most basic of forms. There's a lot of stuff included in those two that makes Hex distinctly different alone.

Numbers 1, 2, 4 aren't relevant. This lawsuit is about the game matches themselves, not the progression mechanics surrounding it. And for Number 3, individual cards aren't the point (even the examples in the lawsuit don't match up exactly); it's about the general game mechanics and rules themselves.

So if another CCG made a 'different' variation of a creature kill card, then WotC cant used it because....?

Again its arguing mechanics of a concept that has limited design potential.

It's not about individual cards, it's the mechanics surrounding them.

 

[RedHotChimiChanga]

Oh shit, it's on.

Frankly, I'd rather see the game be a bit more different in the resource department. The color mana system is just too much like Magic.

 

[Phades]

The D20 system thing is pretty different, since the term "D20" itself was a licensed trademark of WotC, while most of the rules content of D&D3 was exposed under a free (with limitations) license called OGL.

Eventually some people started making the bet that they could ignore all the proffered license terms, clone elements of D&D rules and get away with it, but nobody was really willing to try when the D20 stuff first started.

Yeah, but the methodology existed prior to the WOTC/Wizkids transition in the palladium games among others. I didn't mean to invoke a "trademarked" phrase unintentionally.

Hex actually duplicated almost exactly the MTGO implementation where you can set phases to pause at and otherwise it bypasses them automatically.

Odd choice since there was stated logic in terms of speed priority earlier in the thread. No need to double down using a physical concept like this.

 

[Shrennin]

Numbers 1, 2, 4 aren't relevant. This lawsuit is about the game matches themselves, not the progression mechanics surrounding it. And for Number 3, individual cards aren't the point (even the examples in the lawsuit don't match up exactly); it's about the general game mechanics and rules themselves.

Man. If you had your way, no other FPS game would exist (game mechanics and rules of FPS games can be very similar, even very popular ones).

Also, can't copyright mechanics so I would stop using that argument. Also, 1, 2, and 4 are very relevant as that differentiates Hex from Magic in a lot of ways.

Furthermore, some stuff that Wizards is claiming is a copy is not even close to a copy (plot, physical size of cards, etc.), so that's why this seems like more of a bully lawsuit than an actual, relevant one.

 

[Armaros]

Its really not. There's amazing diversity in the CCG scene.

So how many ways can you design a low resource single creature kill card, without resorting to complex gimmicks for the sake of being different. I was talking directly about the examples shown, murder and terror, which are low cost removal cards that destroys one enemy creature.

Numbers 1, 2, 4 aren't relevant. This lawsuit is about the game matches themselves, not the progression mechanics surrounding it. And for Number 3, individual cards aren't the point (even the examples in the lawsuit don't match up exactly); it's about the general game mechanics and rules themselves.



It's not about individual cards, it's the mechanics surrounding them.

Again, mechanics are not copyrightable, or the entire video game industry would be litigation heaven.

 

[f0rk]

Can't do this in Magic

or this

or this

There are plenty of things that are different in Hex compared to Magic. The base attack system and abilities are similar though.

These all seem like awful designs lol, especially compared to the similar stuff in Solforge.

 

[Toxi]

So how many ways can you design a low resource single creature kill card, without resorting to complex gimmicks for the sake of being different.

 

[Armaros]

Thats not single creature removal card....

Thats single creature control.

 

[Phades]

Except its not like other card games are running into the same issue. Magic did not define the one, broad, generic implementation that other card games must follow. I've played dozens of them, they have their similarities and their differences.

Marking of used cards and drawing from a deck are pretty universal.

 

[Gunmonkey36]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Also how well arguments are made by each sides in court. I can only imagine how little the proceeding judge / court will know of CCG's (assuming it actually ends up in court).

Judge, "Well both of those cards are the same color seems pretty similar to me..."

Spoiler

^Blatant Hyperbole

 

[Toxi]

Thats not single creature removal card....

Thats single creature control.

It's removal with Virbank Gym.