how are black and green polar opposites
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Wizards of the Coast files lawsuit vs Cryptozoic / Hex [Update: Settlement]
- Thread starter Kyuur
- Start date
how are black and green polar opposites
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
The ideas behind the colors being similar is what I agree with
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
In Magic, black and green are enemy colors whereas in Hex blood and wild (green) are not.
I know. I just wanted to emphasize that the colors don't work the same as the colors in Magic.
Edit: the color wheel idea is what Hex uses, but a lot of the same colors don't work exactly like the Magic counterparts. They are similar in ways, but the usual way to play them is different (you cannot create a growth deck the same way in Hex that you would in Magic).
I'm being pedantic but I doubt I'd call enemy colors polar opposites in modern Magic.
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
The point I was making was that the idea behind the supposed "exact" same colors are different. Blood and green go well together thematically. The "elves" of Hex are a blood and green race. The actual elves in Hex work nothing like the elves in Magic.
Fair enough. The fact you've played Hex period means your words have more weight than mine - I'm judging it off a cursory glance as a Magic player.
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
I've played both -- a lot of Magic too -- and Hex is obviously building from Magic's framework, but I've had to think differently when building decks, making strategies, and matching colors. I'm actually a better Magic player than Hex player at the moment, but I prefer Hex overall.
They don't have analogues with every mechanic.
That's why people are calling Hex a clone.
Most of them are much more different from Magic than Hex is. Netrunner especially.
Wizards doesn't adhere to allied or enemy colors much anymore in gameplay, especially since some "enemy colors" have very similar gameplay. Red and Blue particularly with draw+discard, copying creatures, copying spells, redirecting spells, focusing on non-creature spells over creatures, returning non-creature spells from your graveyard to your hand, power and toughness reversal and modification...
the digital version of magic, mtgo, is so shitty that i hope this new game takes off. its inexcusable to continuously take money from customers for a ptq or another high level event and the game client crash.
i also hope they avoid some of magic's negatives such as:
a dominant color (blue)
standardized artwork, aka boring artwork
out of touch devs deciding whats fun (weak counters, no land destruction, no combo ect)
boneheaded reprint policies (reserved list, p9 being 1 in 53 packs of vintage online)
tom lapille
It is kind of crazy how many cards in the Hex DB you can go through and find notable Magic analogues to if they aren't one of the "affects stuff in your deck" cards. This makes sense, of course, since it is hard to do something totally new when someone's been printing thousands of cards a year for 20 years in a rules system that is extremely similar to the one you are using.
Also, these are the same card:
This whole thing has really just reminded me that I should actually go mess with the Hex beta since I made the OT for it and then got super distracted and never went back to it. I think I have my sick Kickstarter rewards now.
Also, these are the same card:
This whole thing has really just reminded me that I should actually go mess with the Hex beta since I made the OT for it and then got super distracted and never went back to it. I think I have my sick Kickstarter rewards now.
Are we talking differences on the scale of "Mono-red is not a burn deck" or smaller stuff that could be easily attributed to set design rather than base game mechanics.
As a land destruction fan, I understand I'm in the minority. Same thing happened with counter spells and engine combo (Very sad about how two card combo seems to be more encouraged). The game is more popular than it's ever been and it's thanks to dialing back non-permanent strategies. Counterspell tempo strategies still dominate Legacy if you enjoy that format.
But yeah, hopefully this will encourage Wizards to spend more on their online version of the card game. I never cared for it because I play only physical magic.
Yamivaya Wurm is actually a functional remake of one of the first big dumb Green creatures.It is kind of crazy how many cards in the Hex DB you can go through and find notable Magic analogues to if they aren't one of the "affects stuff in your deck" cards. This makes sense, of course, since it is hard to do something totally new when someone's been printing thousands of cards a year for 20 years in a rules system that is extremely similar to the one you are using.
Also, these are the same card:
This whole thing has really just reminded me that I should actually go mess with the Hex beta since I made the OT for it and then got super distracted and never went back to it. I think I have my sick Kickstarter rewards now.
I was initially excited for Hex because Magic Online is one of the most poorly implemented successful pieces of software to ever exist.
Oh, mistook the trample for flavor text.
Poor Craw Wurm, forever the butt of Timmy jokes.
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
I don't really dabble in Ruby (red), but I'll use growth as an example: to make an effective growth deck, you'll probably have to go with blood and green since green can reproduce, but not really make powerful creatures. Blood sacrifices the reproductions so that's possible. I've tried to make mono wild growth decks and never really found them all that effective. Besides, if the set designs are nothing like Magic's (which this first set isn't) then that's basically a huge difference in how colors are used. Like I said, the "elves" of Magic are a blood and wild race. That's the main (only) growth race.
With that said, I know Ruby has burn cards in it. I'm not sure if a mono red makes an effective burn deck, though. I think Ruby (red) and Diamond (white) is the aggressive deck.
Also, artifact decks work completely differently from artifacts in Magic. Artifacts are used in other decks, yes, but the dwarves really utilize artifacts in interesting ways that Magic never did.
To be honest, mono color decks in general probably won't be strong in Hex (especially when more sets are released). The threshold mechanic makes multiple color decks more than just viable.
I at least have fond memories of his rampaging bro Craw Giant.
Spiritreaver
Member
Err someone earlier in the thread said that the threshold and mana system are exactly the same and no one ever corrected him.
Example of how they are mechanically different:
Say I play a 2 color deck red/blue (ruby/sapphire). I have 2 islands/1 mountain in play. In my hand I have 2 red cards, 1R, R. In Magic I can only play one of these cards because I only have 1 mountain.
In hex I have in my hand two ruby cards with 1 threshold, one costs 2, the other 1. I can play both cards because I have 1 ruby threshold.
The resource system is similar, but in fact quite different when it comes to the flow of the game.
Just had to make that correction.
Example of how they are mechanically different:
Say I play a 2 color deck red/blue (ruby/sapphire). I have 2 islands/1 mountain in play. In my hand I have 2 red cards, 1R, R. In Magic I can only play one of these cards because I only have 1 mountain.
In hex I have in my hand two ruby cards with 1 threshold, one costs 2, the other 1. I can play both cards because I have 1 ruby threshold.
The resource system is similar, but in fact quite different when it comes to the flow of the game.
Just had to make that correction.
Artifacts in Magic have basically used in every possible strategy ever, so it's hard to find one way they weren't. Prison, mill, aggro, control, engine, combo, reanimation, first turn broken wins, anything. There are decks with a few artifacts and decks that are all artifacts (Including the lands).
I was corrected, thank you.
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
I know, but dwarves in Hex use artifacts in ways Magic has not. Dwarves are basically a race (that requires various colors) but they only really use artifacts to accomplish things (build machines that create more machines, build machines that create effects, build robots to destroy them to power other machines, etc.). A lot of those cards require schematics for dwarves to use to build the machine in question. It's very thematic.
There's a whole race that's not an artifact race but it only uses artifacts. They are also pretty powerful, too.
Spiritreaver
Member
Good. I read through the thread somewhat quickly.
As someone who plays both games. I really wish I could play my U/R pinger deck where all my instants could be paid for by the other color. That would be a huge game changer
Squirrel Killer
Member
You can be "not fine" with this game while still understanding that the lawsuit is a baseless attempt to draw down Crytozoic's cash.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Sure, Hex does some innovative stuff. I quite like what I've seen of it. Its just that the substrate is nearly a 1:1 derivative. The twist on the mana system is interesting, but why not do similar things with combat, or game structure?
Cryptozoic is really not known for coming up with original stuff. They flood the market with licensed reskins of their ho-hum deck-building game system. Not surprised at all that they'd just copy MTG.
On the other hand, the people saying WotC are scared of cutting into their TCG business might not have a very good idea of how much crazy-money WotC still makes from physical MTG sales.
On the other hand, the people saying WotC are scared of cutting into their TCG business might not have a very good idea of how much crazy-money WotC still makes from physical MTG sales.
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
That's a legitimate topic of discussion, but I don't believe it's nearly enough for Wizards to file a lawsuit against Hex.
I believe WotC wants a certain amount of money (500,000?) and a permanent injunction against Hex, which I think would prevent Hex from existing even if it changed.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
In terms of this specific lawsuit I think Wizard's most legally valid complaint is about the software interface, which is uncannily similar to DotP
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
I still think Crypto will "win" but the money used in this lawsuit will almost certainly hurt them (Crypto) unfortunately.
I'm quite well versed in CCGs and deckbuilding games, and the Hex/MTG relationship is far closer than any I've seen anywhere else.
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of similarities. Most CCGs these days have some variant on "summoning sickness," plus a keyworded ability to get around it. Seven cards in hand is pretty standard. Tapping is near-ubiquitous. Even a stack-like resolution order appears in at least three CCGs that come to mind.
But the sheer volume of "things that are exactly the same" between Hex and Magic is staggering. (disclaimer: paraphrasing this list from the list in WotC's suit) 20 life, mill as an alternate victory condition, tapping/untapping, power/toughness, damage resetting every turn, five colors plus artifacts as colorless, attackers and blockers, six types, the phases of the turn, the mulligan rule (note, not "a" mulligan rule; other games have other rules. Hex's is identical: mulligan and draw N-1 cards, repeat as desired). Haste, flying, vigilance, defender, first strike, hexproof, trample, indestructible and lifelink all as keyworded abilities.
Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon TCG are more different to Magic than Hex is. Hearthstone is more different, the first WoW TCG is more different, heck Duel Masters is more different to Magic than Hex is. Pandemic and Forbidden Island are more different than Hex and Magic. Dota and LoL are more different. Dominion and Ascension and DC Deckbuilding Game and Thunderstone and Emminent Domain and Penny Arcade and every other deckbuilding game that comes to mind: any pair is more different than Hex and Magic.
The only closer copies that come to mind are the shameless mobile game ripoffs and Dota vs Heroes of Newerth. Hex has a couple neat ideas, but they're all wrapped up in stuff that's copied wholesale from Magic.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
I dunno. A difference of perspective, I guess.
20 life? Yeah similar. Most other card games do have a central pool of life, to be fair.
Milling is a pretty common victory condition amongst CCGs, though some do it better than others (Netrunner handled it intelligently).
Tapping/untapping is common. Nearly every card game has a limit on how many times you can activate certain cards.
Power/toughness? Most combat-oriented card games have some form of attack/defense or attack/health.
Damage resetting every turn? You're not wrong. They are both the same, but this seems like a pretty basic similarity. Also, not unique to just Magic and Hex.
6 colors? Got me there. Most CCGs I've played do away with colors, or hide it behind "factions" (like 5 rings, Netrunner, cthulhu, etc)
As far as mulligan? Every single Fantasy Flight LCG includes that as a rule.
Keywords? It could be argued that some of those will be a given in a combat-oriented game. Warhammer Invasion has its own version of every single one of those abilities (or close to it). Undoubtedly, MtG set the bar here, but other games have followed in its footsteps before Hex came along.
I mean, am I denying there are similarities? Heck no. It's very similar to Magic. I'd go as far to say that it's trying to target the same demographic of Magic in a very intentional way. But I don't see how THIS game - of all the games out there - crosses the line but all those other CCGs (especially the dead ones from the 90s) didn't cross the line. You mentioned Dominion vs Thunderstone. Thunderstone was the first big Dominion "clone" to come out and it fits your description for Hex exactly: has a couple neat ideas, but they're all wrapped up in stuff that's copied wholesale from Dominion. Never saw a problem with that.
Cool to see there are other hobby boardgamers on GAF, even though I seem to be in the minority here, thinking the two games aren't all that similar.
You gotta come over to Off Topic/Community!
There's a Board Game Thread, a Magic thread, and a Netrunner Thread among others!
Antilurker77
Member
You're missing the point. Other games have other similarities to Magic, but Hex is the only one to copy all of them.
veloxStrix
Banned
Hearthstone has very different mechanics than MTG though.
Whereas in Magic you can choose to block an opposing creature, Hearthstone doesn't give you that option. However, it does provide creatures that can force the opponent to attack into them.
Turns are asynchronous in Hearthstone, meaning that opponents can't interact during your turn (aside from using Secrets that still have to be played on their turn).
Hearthstone creatures don't regenerate health.
There is no Upkeep or Untap in Hearthstone, and no true Attack phase. Although one could make the argument that "At the beginning of your turn..." effects would take place in an upkeep-like phase.
You don't lose by "decking out" (drawing while your library/deck is empty).
Hearthstone classes have unique abilities.
Minor differences: Packs only contain 5 cards, classes force you to pick certain cards, etc.
Hex is a ripoff of Magic. It's not that it's "a card game". I've played other card games. I've played Pokemon and Harry Potter in my youth, Magic, Netrunner, Game of Thrones LCG(which is brilliant, by the way), Warcraft TCG, Hearthstone, and Warhammer 40k Conquest (I actually got to beta this one, which I'm pretty proud of. xD). You can't have that much in common. Every game differentiates somehow, but Hex copies the fundamental turn order to a T, along with other details such as booster pack size, card types, card mechanics, deck size, win conditions, turn order, color system, card layout, and the actual cards themselves.
Differences between Hex and Magic are minor and include items affecting card mechanics, variations in color identity, and notably cards being able to have state changes while they are still in the hand (i.e; Giving a card +2/+2 even though it's in your hand.). But again, these are all minor (and probably not all the differences but I've only played it for like 2 hours so cut me some slack.
)Disaster Nebraska
Banned
Thank you very much. I will make it a point to do so.
All of them? Your consistent use of hyperbole throughout this thread is doing a real disservice to an already weak argument.
Antilurker77
Member
I'm not using hyperbole. Is that were the confusion is coming from? Hex's hero abilities and color threshold is the only thing that separates it from Magic. Everything else is identical. Cryptozoic really did blatantly copy Magic's ruleset.
Did you read what I wrote and decide to prove me right? It usually isn't this easy.
Antilurker77
Member
I'm not exaggerating. They really did take Magic's mechanics and rulesets and rename it. It's a near-perfect 1:1 comparison.
veloxStrix
Banned
Stop it. You're running into his wall of douche-baggery at full force. He's nitpicking the fact that since not EVERY SINGLE THING is like Magic, and you said, "everything", but now you are using non-absolutes like "near" and "similar".
You're latching onto an issue of word choice and using that to distract from the argument that you then call weak. It isn't a weak argument. It's an obviously true thing that shouldn't be argued.
Anyone that has played both games can easily point to how similar they are in nearly every mechanic and rules interaction. The inspiration is clear and obvious when you consider just how many things act exactly the same as it does in Magic. If you assume "this will work how it does in Magic" about pretty much anything in Hex you are almost always correct. This really shouldn't be up for debate.
All that said, I have no idea if that is something you can get sued for.
It's not. Game mechanics are irrelevant here because they can't be patented. Further, the differences are obviously just as important as the likenesses if you're trying to sue someone by alleging consumers will confuse their product for yours. No one who knows anything about either game could be brought to a monitor with an application stripped of any branding and play these two games and not know which is which. No one is trying to be deceptive.
The hyperbole of "EVERYTHING IS THE SAME!" and the like is a clear indication someone thinks they have a weak argument and need to bend the truth to make themselves feel better about it. Why not even attempt to look objective? What possible good is done by overstepping so blatantly? Furthermore I get the sense at least some of this is fueled by the hate always shown toward Kickstarter projects.
Going overboard with accusations is unnecessary and distracts from whatever point you or anyone else might be trying to make. If the focus were on identifying an issue and working to correct it that would matter, and an unwillingness to recognize this calls motivations into question.
Yeah, the argument that Hex is legally allowed to blatantly copy Magic may very well have merit. I'm no expert on patent law, and honestly I don't much care. But to argue that Hex isn't a blatant ripoff? The mental gymnastics required to make that argument are frankly mind-boggling.
If I wanted to teach a Magic player the rules for Hex, I'd explain how Threshold works and how hero abilities work. After that I'd give them a list of all the words in both games which identically map 1:1 with each other. At that point the Magic player knows all the rules to Hex, because they're exactly the same as Magic's. There is no other CCG/TCG I've played which copies Magic that blatantly.
And thus it's a terrible interface.
I watched a little bit of the "how to play" video on the KS page, and there are a ton of similarities.
All the stuff about "sockets" on cards and adding equipment to them sounds fun and unique, but it's hard to argue that a lot of the other rules aren't just lifted directly from MTG.
All the stuff about "sockets" on cards and adding equipment to them sounds fun and unique, but it's hard to argue that a lot of the other rules aren't just lifted directly from MTG.
GoofsterStud
Member
Didn't even know about this game and now I must have it!
FieryBalrog
Member
To anyone confused about which game is copying which, I'll just leave this here:
http://imgur.com/a/nHV7g
Also the rules are basically a straight lift of MTG's comprehensive rules. Including the exact structure of a turn, the game zones, the stack, and most of the keywords.There are some new things, all of which are "digital card-game mechanics" that couldn't exist in MTG, so kudos for that. That doesn't, however, stop it from being a fan-made expansion for MTG that's marketed as a separate game.
This is not true for Pokemon, YuGiOh, Hearthstone, etc. It's not impossible at all to make a fantasy or magic-themed TCG that is original. Cryptozoic just didn't try.
http://imgur.com/a/nHV7g
Also the rules are basically a straight lift of MTG's comprehensive rules. Including the exact structure of a turn, the game zones, the stack, and most of the keywords.There are some new things, all of which are "digital card-game mechanics" that couldn't exist in MTG, so kudos for that. That doesn't, however, stop it from being a fan-made expansion for MTG that's marketed as a separate game.
This is not true for Pokemon, YuGiOh, Hearthstone, etc. It's not impossible at all to make a fantasy or magic-themed TCG that is original. Cryptozoic just didn't try.