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[Aureon]

I see. It's still extremely similar, but I'll give them that.

Now I'm wondering which Magic mechanic you're talking about. It's not phasing. Is it Wish mechanics like Riftsweeper? It's not phasing.

It popped up in the MaRo blog a while ago - Richard had designed the mechanic, but threw it out after playtesting. It hasn't ever gotten an official name, and wasn't printed.

You announce phases in a video game? I'm not familiar with hex, but that doesn't seem right.

Sorry, but the last time I played MTG there were many effect timings with rulings that required such things. I seriously doubt that anything near that exists here.

If you want to start gutting systems until they are identical, go right ahead, but then everything in every genre starts to look exactly the same at that point.

Last i tried HEX, it actually did a round of priority for phase changes and\or spellcasts. So, yeah, it's implemented that way, which is actually kind of embarassing for them i guess.

 

[Armaros]

And thats a reactive, if you read my edit, you would see i was talking about cards designed like the examples shown IE Murder.

 

[The Technomancer]

So how many ways can you design a low resource single creature kill card, without resorting to complex gimmicks for the sake of being different.

The templating is identical. I really think the Pyrite Spellbomb is a better example.

Plenty of card games have come up with other resource systems. Pokemon has energy that gets attached to specific creatures. Duel Masters lets you play your other cards as resources. Hearthstone has a passive mana counter building. Yu-Gi-Oh has you sacrifice your creatures. Netrunner gives you a set number of "action points" to spend each turn, along with money you can accumulate.

Plenty of card games have come up with other combat systems. Pokemon is 1v1 combat. Yu-Gi-Oh lets you declare what specific targets you're attacking. Vanguard has...shit, I don't remember how Vanguard works but it wasn't like Magic. Solforge makes everyone attack at once and has actual board positioning matter.

Plenty of card games have other "one time effect" systems. Yu-Gi-Oh has the infamous trap card bluffing. Most card games I've played don't actually have "instant speed", at least not with the relevant stack interaction and counter-effects that that implies.

Taking any one of these, or other, systems and copying them wouldn't really be a rip-off. But taken together?

 

[Shrennin]

It popped up in the MaRo blog a while ago - Richard had designed the mechanic, but threw it out after playtesting. It hasn't ever gotten an official name, and wasn't printed.

Which doesn't make it relevant in this lawsuit.

 

[QisTopTier]

Oh yeah the second effect on this

and this

Also Cards with gem sockets which let you customize their abilities that activate based on threshhold

 

[The Technomancer]

The Trap Hole card, if anything, only highlights how fundamentally different the rules substrates of Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic are. There's the mechanic of Trap Cards in the first place and the specification between Normal and Flip summoning, both of which are very game specific.

 

[mclem]

Except mechanics are not protected.

That'd be like Nintendo copyrighting the ability to jump because they had it in Super Mario Brothers.

That has always bothered me, actually. Some games are *defined* by their mechanics, yet they are afforded no protection whatsoever - despite being the mechanics that make the game what it is. Hence the various Threes clones, hence Flappy bird clones, hence Tetris clones.

Is there a way of defining a middle ground that protects such games without having a chilling effect on the more basic ideas being used in different games?

 

[Toxi]

And thats a reactive, if you read my edit, you would see i was talking about cards designed like the examples shown IE Murder.

Well gee, if you get that specific, it's almost like you're asking for a card specifically in Magic's rule system. If you copy the rule system of a game over two decades old, of course you're going to get some of the same card effects.

 

[Aureon]

Which doesn't make it relevant in this lawsuit.

I don't think any of the mechanics are. Also, proving that one part of the game is not a copy goes anywhere int he defense of this suit.

 

[The Technomancer]

The Murder example is generic enough that its not a great example (yes, many games have some version of "destroy a thing"), I think the Spellbomb example is much more relevant in terms of displaying identical systems.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Many games have copied magic, but none have been as blatant rip off as Hex.

 

[Antilurker77]

Also, can't copyright mechanics so I would stop using that argument.

Highly debatable since it has been enforced in the past (Namco copyrighting loading screen mini-games for example).

 

[Phades]

The Trap Hole card, if anything, only highlights how fundamentally different the rules substrates of Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic are. There's the mechanic of Trap Cards in the first place and the specification between Normal and Flip summoning, both of which are very game specific.

Maze of ith, desert, unsummon, reverse polarity and many many others serve the purpose of a "trap". The only real difference is where the card exists prior to its effect occuring. I also seem to recall a "phasing" mechanic in MTG...

Yugioh summons seemed to draw a parrallel to the resource management required in Vampire the masqarade CCG.

This doesn't mean that they should be ridiculed as clones.

 

[The Technomancer]

Maze of ith, desert, unsummon, reverse polarity and many many others serve the purpose of a "trap". The only real difference is where the card exists prior to its effect occuring. I also seem to recall a "phasing" mechanic in MTG...

The closer analogue would actually be Morph I think, because of the bluffing aspect, although Morph is still rather different as its on creatures and isn't a fundamental part of the game.

But like I pointed out above, its not any one aspect but the multitude of them taken together.

 

[Discobird]

Highly debatable since it has been enforced in the past (Namco copyrighting loading screen mini-games for example).

That was a patent not a copyright

But, like I've been saying, the bigger picture is that the game mechanics portion of the copyright claim is a relatively minor part of the overall complaint. It could be thrown out completely and the rest of the complaint (copyright infringement as to non-mechanical elements, trade dress, patent claim) would be unaffected.

 

[Phades]

The closer analogue would actually be Morph I think, because of the bluffing aspect, although Morph is still rather different as its on creatures and isn't a fundamental part of the game.

But like I pointed out above, its not any one aspect but the multitude of them taken together.

The entire match with a mono water user in MTG for many eras was simply trying to figure out what was his hand and if he can stop you head game.

 

[Toxi]

This doesn't mean that they should be ridiculed as clones.

Hex absolutely can be ridiculed as a clone. To me it's clear Cryptozoic was trying to provide something as mechanically similar to Magic as possible.

Whether that deserves lawsuit is another matter entirely, and the current laws say no.

The entire match with a mono water user in MTG for many eras was simply trying to figure out what was his hand and if he can stop you head game.

"Both mechanics use bluffing and reaction" hardly makes traps a copy of instants. That'd be like calling Morph a copy of Instants. They provide similar benefits to the game, but in different ways. Also, it's "Blue". Water is Pokemon.

Quick actions on the other hand...

 

[Discobird]

Hex absolutely can be ridiculed as a clone. To me it's clear Cryptozoic was trying to provide something as mechanically similar to Magic as possible.

Whether that deserves lawsuit is another matter entirely, and the current laws say no.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions, I mean, I don't want to repeat myself too much but... tl;dr: the complaint is not all about copyrighting game mechanics

 

[charlequin]

Fuck Wizards of the Coast. I lost all respect for them when they divided the core rulebooks into multiple volumes

lolwut

You can easily do this within the confines of Magic (shuffling tokens into the deck). It's clunky, but possible.

I wouldn't say "easily"; every time they've tried to do a mechanic like that someone on their rules team has tossed it out. And you can't give permanent bonuses or penalties to individual cards inside a deck (the mechanic the latter two examples use) in Magic at all.

Except the complaint alleges a host of other types of copyright infringement along with trade dress and patent claims, none of which go away if the court decides that game mechanics are not copyrightable.

Probably their best bet is the original TCG patent. After that it's probably trade dress infringement via similar card design, since that's not necessary to release a game with similar or identical rules. I don't think there's any way WotC has a copyright claim that holds up here.

 

[charlequin]

Highly debatable since it has been enforced in the past (Namco copyrighting loading screen mini-games for example).

No, it's not debatable at all. It's honestly one of the better-settled questions of copyright law. Mechanical procedures, algorithms, and instructions/rules cannot be copyrighted, although a specific expression of them can be.

The Namco issue is with a patent, and I would suggest you be aware of the difference if you're going to argue a position in a thread about intellectual property.

Odd choice since there was stated logic in terms of speed priority earlier in the thread. No need to double down using a physical concept like this.

You pretty much need the ability to take actions during the opponent's turn to actually make a strategically interesting game, which pretty much calls for the ability to pre-emptively freeze and take an action, which in turn pretty much calls for phases. (The alternative is reaction cards with tightly defined reaction windows attached.)

Is there a way of defining a middle ground that protects such games without having a chilling effect on the more basic ideas being used in different games?

In theory? Very possibly. Via the process through which IP laws are actually written? Sadly, almost certainly not. :/

 

[Discobird]

Probably their best bet is the original TCG patent. After that it's probably trade dress infringement via similar card design, since that's not necessary to release a game with similar or identical rules. I don't think there's any way WotC has a copyright claim that holds up here.

There's the copyright claim as to look and feel, which is similar to the trade dress claim but WotC wouldn't have to prove a likelihood of confusion

 

[charlequin]

There's the copyright claim as to look and feel, which is similar to the trade dress claim but WotC wouldn't have to prove a likelihood of confusion

Yeah, I don't think the look-and-feel case really holds up outside the trade dress issue. Most of the client presentation is much more generic and utility-driven than the card structure, and the visual style and expression isn't really the part that's close enough to stand out as a direct copy. It's certainly very possible that a court uses this as an avenue to offer relief to WotC for the broader copying since the duplication of rules isn't enforceable, but I don't think they'd have a strong case purely on the merits. Like: if this game had the rules of Hearthstone but looked exactly like it does now, a "look and feel" suit would get thrown out.

I think the idea of a duplicated "plot" and "setting" is basically unsupportable; Hex has different races, a different type of setting (single world instead of a multiverse), and a much different core story element (exploding space meteors instead of planeswalkers who can journey between worlds.)

 

[QisTopTier]

I like how people bring up the Pokemon card game when Wizards sued them too

 

[Toxi]

I like how people bring up the Pokemon card game when Wizards sued them too

It was basically a desperate attempt to hold onto the game.

Wizards of the Coast is very lawsuit happy. One of the ways they're like Games Workshop.

 

[Totakeke]

On one hand, I was disappointed as how much the game was similar to MtG, and it probably wouldn't have garnered the support it had if it wasn't. On the other hand, the ambition of making a digital-only experience for a card game at the scale of MtG needs to be applauded for.

 

[Discobird]

Yeah, I don't think the look-and-feel case really holds up outside the trade dress issue. Most of the client presentation is much more generic and utility-driven than the card structure, and the visual style and expression isn't really the part that's close enough to stand out as a direct copy. It's certainly very possible that a court uses this as an avenue to offer relief to WotC for the broader copying since the duplication of rules isn't enforceable, but I don't think they'd have a strong case purely on the merits. Like: if this game had the rules of Hearthstone but looked exactly like it does now, a "look and feel" suit would get thrown out.

I think the idea of a duplicated "plot" and "setting" is basically unsupportable; Hex has different races, a different type of setting (single world instead of a multiverse), and a much different core story element (exploding space meteors instead of planeswalkers who can journey between worlds.)

Yeah I don't know about the plot and setting claims holding up, lol. As for the look and feel though, I'm not clear on why you think the trade dress claim could hold up but not the look and feel copyright claim, since they're both directed to the look and feel of the game (visual design of the cards and how they're arranged, etc.). If Hex's "visual style and expression" aren't substantially similar to MTG then why would the trade dress claim succeed?

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

Do people in this thread play other card games? I mean, other than just MtG. I ask because I do. In other games, there are cards with effects like

Discard this card: Deal 2 damage to target

and

For Each token on this card, deal X damage to target

Stuff like that is commonplace. MtG isn't the only game to use If THIS status, then THIS effect card combos. Spending 45 seconds searching, here are a few "deal 2 damage" cards from Warhammer Invasion, Netrunner (made by Richard Garfield, the designer of the orginal MtG), and Star Wars. If I spent a few moments more, I could find a dozen other instances of similar card games with similar rules to MtG.

Warhammer: Invasion

Android: Netrunner

Star Wars:

 

[Antilurker77]

Do people in this thread play other card games? I mean, other than just MtG. I ask because I do. In other games, there are cards with effects like

It's not about individual cards. It's about Hex's game mechanics and rule sets as a whole.

 

[Shrennin]

I think the idea of a duplicated "plot" and "setting" is basically unsupportable; Hex has different races, a different type of setting (single world instead of a multiverse), and a much different core story element (exploding space meteors instead of planeswalkers who can journey between worlds.)

That's what is literally making me think this lawsuit is more Wizards feeling threatened rather than trying to do a legitimate lawsuit. The plot and setting are completely different. No similarity at all. Stretching is not even possible to make those two things similar. The concept of "magic" doesn't even work the same.

 

[licktheenvelope]

Don't think they have a case. Seems like some bored lawyers.

 

[ultron87]

It is 100 percent a Magic clone. I have no idea if that means they can get sued. I'd hope Cryptozoic would've talked to some lawyers before investing so much into the project.

At least this shows that Wizards is aware they are in the process of getting their lunch eaten and might put more than seven dollars into Magic Online at some point.

 

[QisTopTier]

It is 100 percent a Magic clone. I have no idea if that means they can get sued. I'd hope Cryptozoic would've talked to some lawyers before investing so much into the project.

At least this shows that Wizards is aware they are in the process of getting their lunch eaten and might put more than seven dollars into Magic Online at some point.

False, it's closer to 70%

Champions, threshold, and charges are some of the key diffrences

 

[Antilurker77]

False, it's closer to 70%

Champions, threshold, and charges are some of the key diffrences

Those are the ONLY differences. Everything else is identical.

 

[Shrennin]

Also, there's errors in the lawsuit as well. For one, blood is not black; it's purple. They should have probably researched this more, but as is there are a lot of stretches, and even some misinformation.

I don't get how people defend this lawsuit, but it's gonna get thrown out. It might hurt Crypto financially, which is probably the aim of Wizards anyway - to hurt the IP, even if winning the lawsuit is unlikely.

 

[QisTopTier]

Those are the ONLY differences. Everything else is identical.

Nope, plenty more

 

[Discobird]

That's what is literally making me think this lawsuit is more Wizards feeling threatened rather than trying to do a legitimate lawsuit.The plot and setting are completely different. No similarity at all. Stretching is not even possible to make those two things similar. The concept of "magic" doesn't even work the same.

I get where you're coming from, but having read a lot of IP infringement complaints in a previous life, it's not at all unusual for plaintiffs' counsel to throw everything but the kitchen sink into the complaint, even if the claims don't all ultimately stick (as long as they're not so ridiculous that you'd risk Rule 11 sanctions or piss off the judge, lol... and the plot and setting infringement claims don't reach that level). Given the low cost of pleading additional claims, you could even argue that NOT doing so is malpractice in certain situations. So the presence of "filler" claims doesn't necessarily mean WotC is desperate or being a bully. Those things might still be true, but not because of the filler claims.

-edit- almost everyone is forgetting about the patent claim as well

 

[ultron87]

False, it's closer to 70%

Champions, threshold, and charges are some of the key diffrences

Sorry, when I said "100%" I really meant more that it is "definitely" a Magic clone. Using clone in the way its used in gaming and not in the "100 perfect identical DNA" sense. I can pretty easily assume that Cryptozoic sat down and said, "let's take Magic and tweak it a bit and release it with a competent online interface".

I don't really judge them for that and it sounds like that probably isn't a case for getting sued. But we can call it what it is.

 

[Antilurker77]

Nope, plenty more

Feel free to list them all then. Because I haven't seen anything else.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

It's not about individual cards. It's about Hex's game mechanics and rule sets as a whole.

And what I'm pointing out is that other card games on the market use very similar mechanics and rules to MtG as well.

I guess I'll repeat my question: how many people in this thread have played card games outside the world of MtG? Are you aware of how similar most/all of the deckbuilding card games are to one another? Yet, Hex is being taken to court.

I don't even have a love for Hex. But WotC is known among hobby boardgamers as being kind of bullish, surpassed only by Games Workshop, perhaps. This lawsuit is silly.

 

[Orayn]

While I hope Cryptozoic wins, there are enough similarities between the two that I'm not the least bit surprised Wizards is suing.

 

[QisTopTier]

Feel free to list them all then. Because I haven't seen anything else.

Way to talk out of your ass. My earlier post have examples
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=112002841&postcount=105

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=111998905&postcount=71

 

[Antilurker77]

And what I'm pointing out is that other card games on the market use very similar mechanics and rules to MtG as well.

I guess I'll repeat my question: how many people in this thread have played card games outside the world of MtG? Are you aware of how similar most/all of the deckbuilding card games are to one another? Yet, Hex is being taken to court.

I don't even have a love for Hex. But WotC is known among hobby boardgamers as being kind of bullish, surpassed only by Games Workshop, perhaps. This lawsuit is silly.

I really want to emphasis that Hex isn't "similar", it's almost identical to the point that you could use an MTG rulebook while playing Hex and it would be 99% accurate. No other TCG copies so much from MTG.

Way to talk out of your ass. My earlier post have examples
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=112002841&postcount=105

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=111998905&postcount=71

Cards aren't rules.

 

[sgjackson]

I haven't played Hex or really looked into it since the Kickstarter, but you could seriously find/replace the Hex terminology in the Hex website's guide to drafting with its Magic equivalents and hand it to a new Magic drafter to explain drafting. Like passing three 15 card packs left>right>left to make 40 card decks with ~17 land and an appropriate number of creatures in ideally two colors with BREAD as a rough evaluation system is EXACTLY, TO A T how I, as a mediocre Magic drafter, would explain Magic drafting to a newbie. That's fucking insane, and with other TCGs, the equivalents wouldn't be that obvious and the differences would be more clear. I think it's a great illustration of how Hex is pretty clearly a Magic clone that's more egregious than other TCGs I've played/am aware of.

That said, I have no fucking clue how intellectual property law works, so I'm not going to say whether or not this is right/wrong/illegal/whatever. Just that, from what I'm seeing as a Magic player, I could jump into a Hex draft totally blind and do decently because the games are that similar.

 

[The Technomancer]

And what I'm pointing out is that other card games on the market use very similar mechanics and rules to MtG as well.

I guess I'll repeat my question: how many people in this thread have played card games outside the world of MtG? Are you aware of how similar most/all of the deckbuilding card games are to one another? Yet, Hex is being taken to court.

I don't even have a love for Hex. But WotC is known among hobby boardgamers as being kind of bullish, surpassed only by Games Workshop, perhaps. This lawsuit is silly.

Uh, I have, that's kind of the basis for my sentiment that its very much a Magic clone. I've learned and played well over a dozen diverse TCGs in the last decade or so, none of them were nearly as Magic derivative

 

[QisTopTier]

Cards aren't rules.

So you are in denial. Nice. Effects on cards follow rules.

 

[sgjackson]

So you are in denial. Nice. Effects on cards follow rules.

I'd like to point out none of your card examples really break Magic's color pie and if Magic was digital only it would probably have similar effects. The fact that I'm seriously thinking about whether or not a card breaks the Magic color pie in a game might indicate that it's a little more of a clone than you're willing to admit.

 

[The Technomancer]

So you are in denial. Nice. Effects on cards follow rules.

Those are like, all the same rule. Its a cool rule, "cards can have permanent bonuses in out of play zones", but its not some great diversity of additional rules

 

[QisTopTier]

I'd like to point out none of your card examples really break Magic's color pie and if Magic was digital only it would probably have similar effects. The fact that I'm seriously thinking about whether or not a card breaks the Magic color pie in a game might indicate that it's a little more of a clone than you're willing to admit.

Oh no the color pie is definitely the same I agree

Those are like, all the same rule. Its a cool rule, "cards can have permanent bonuses in out of play zones", but its not some great diversity of additional rules

Nope, that's one thing though.

 

[Marchiott]

As a player of magic (and other tabletop card games) and having read the document for the lawsuit (posted on first page), Hex looks suspiciously similar to Magic.

The mechanics are almost 100% identical down to the individual card effects. Some have mentioned the Mario/platformer clone analogy but that would be downplaying the individual mechanics and personalities of such games.

e.g. Mario plays very differently from Rayman or Sonic, or Crash Bandicoot, or Super Meatboy. Hex seems to play nearly identically to Magic.

Though again, as others have mentioned, game mechanics cannot be patented. I doubt WOTC have much legal ground here.

 

[Shrennin]

Oh no the color pie is definitely the same

Except blood is not black and some of the colors don't even work in similar ways. As a Magic player, that did take some getting used to. For instance, blood and green are not polar opposites like black and green.