lensoftruth
Member
Yeah, not for stuff like this.
Whining about Tomb Raider and COD turning from T rated games to M rated blood-baths didn't happen on this scale.
Especially as COD is a playground game on screen.
World's gone made.
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Yoshinori Ono comments on Street Fighter 5 buttslap and related changes
- Thread starter Moraizen
- Start date
Yeah, not for stuff like this.
Whining about Tomb Raider and COD turning from T rated games to M rated blood-baths didn't happen on this scale.
Especially as COD is a playground game on screen.
World's gone made.
Urien model isn't complete yet.
There's also the matter that a lot of people are treating this as Capcom saying "we don't want to piss off Kotaku!" as opposed to "we don't want women to look at this game as something not meant for them because we want them to buy this game".
They showed the footage and people talked about it; the fear of losing female costumers was likely much bigger than the fear of NeoGAF having a thread full of angry people. And I don't know how people want them to react to this kind of data:
"Yeah, well, if we leave this kind of content in, women are less likely to buy the game, but I say we should ignore them in the name of freedom!"
They showed the footage and people talked about it; the fear of losing female costumers was likely much bigger than the fear of NeoGAF having a thread full of angry people. And I don't know how people want them to react to this kind of data:
"Yeah, well, if we leave this kind of content in, women are less likely to buy the game, but I say we should ignore them in the name of freedom!"
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
That's right, and I'm glad you mention that, b/c while I'm just an outsider looking in, I fail to see how whether an altered (not even removed) animation affects the game's bottom line (no pun intended) in playability. At the same time I don't deal in marketing or public relations, and would rather not want to. So yeah, to me it's an arbitrary change that from an artistic or creative POV has zero impact on the experience, but someone in their public relations dept probably knew how others'd react and gave them some advice on changing it, so they did. And even that person is doing more for the game than any of us are.
But from a purely technical or artistic POV, I feel my opinion is valid. Unless there's evidence that version of the animation caused dropped frames or collision issues or some input lag etc., it's a silly change to me on those merits.
Isn't this assuming that no women whatsoever found the butt-slap cool, or sexy, or funny? I'm sure a sizable amount of women who have seen the trailers and played the beta fall in one of those three camps.
lensoftruth
Member
He's male, so is exempt.
Lara Croft is a strong female character because she eviscerates dudes with a climbing axe. Mika is toxic because she slaps her butt.
To me the biggest problem is that all they did was change the camera to basically show nothing. They care enough to make sure people can't see the animation but not enough to do the work to replace the animation with something else. If they really don't want the butt slap in the game then at least give us a different animation instead of basically nothing.
Even from that interview, the limit their team created is still a blur in regards to what is crossing the line. This situation would likely have never happened if it had gotten picked up and edited prior to the release of any media and the beta. At that point, the game was quite far in production.
I'm ok with seeing the original exaggerated animations, but thought it was weird when Mika and Cammy were slightly tweaked in the later betas.
Yup, I agree.
I'm ok with seeing the original exaggerated animations, but thought it was weird when Mika and Cammy were slightly tweaked in the later betas.
Yup, I agree.
poodaddy
Member
I applaud the man, he cares more about being as inclusive as possible then "sticking to his guns" with the possibly offending stuff. People will view this in different ways, but I think it shows a very positive attitude that Capcom has adopted towards being inclusive and interesting for as many gamers as possible. Good stuff Capcom, I love this.
SolarPowered
Member
Yep, I saw that and thought "The beat down is coming!". If it were a guy no one would bat an eyelash. Unfortunately women just can't be seen by a lot of people (well meaning or not) in a nonsexual manner, so flavorful and taunting movements are now "problematic" for them. If you told me a decade ago that a Kinniku buster inspired move would be perceived as sexist I would have laughed in your face (and asked for SFV screencaps), but here we are. It'll be nice when the world can get past this phase and directs it's energy at truly pandering and problematic issues (of which there have got to be MANY) in this industry.
All 4 people who skipped the game due to the buttslap will finally be appeased, and still not buy the game anyway because they never were going to in the first place.
thesolidshark
Member
I'm in the camp(s) of "I think the change was somewhat unnecessary since it's still technically there, but I understand it if they're going for a certain rating."
I wonder if the conditions of getting a T-rating one or a few places in the world, Japan included, was strange enough that Ono had to, and maybe will still have to maneuver/modify some content for sales. I won't downplay the possibility that it would be a turn-off for some pockets of the general public, but I do have to wonder how much advertising her butt-slap would've gotten prior to release.
Unless it would appear in most trailers, or highlighted in most advertised matches leading up to launch, that specific would seem like the kind of thing people would find out about after it was released and bought. Of course that'd be underestimating how big the conversation surrounding her and everything she does hasn't already gotten big enough, outside of GAF.
I personally liked the original version; fit her cheeky personality and was reminiscent of real wrestlers that inspired the character. And I do kind of find it funny to hear his comments on this within a day or two of being made aware of a Hot (Japanese exclusive?) version of some sort. If Ono really wanted the original butt-slap angle to stay in, I hope that's the only thing he loses or doesn't have to change.
I wonder if the conditions of getting a T-rating one or a few places in the world, Japan included, was strange enough that Ono had to, and maybe will still have to maneuver/modify some content for sales. I won't downplay the possibility that it would be a turn-off for some pockets of the general public, but I do have to wonder how much advertising her butt-slap would've gotten prior to release.
Unless it would appear in most trailers, or highlighted in most advertised matches leading up to launch, that specific would seem like the kind of thing people would find out about after it was released and bought. Of course that'd be underestimating how big the conversation surrounding her and everything she does hasn't already gotten big enough, outside of GAF.
I personally liked the original version; fit her cheeky personality and was reminiscent of real wrestlers that inspired the character. And I do kind of find it funny to hear his comments on this within a day or two of being made aware of a Hot (Japanese exclusive?) version of some sort. If Ono really wanted the original butt-slap angle to stay in, I hope that's the only thing he loses or doesn't have to change.
Hmm. While I see your point and broadly agree, I think you're entirely discounting the existence of women who would enjoy this type of material.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
They always say there's no outside influence, and I'm sure that's true in that they didn't have someone directly go to them and demand it, but it's not like they just all suddenly changed their minds without even being aware of the... Idk what you want to call it: Movement? Discussion? Just be honest that you didn't want to catch the shit from people who complain about that kind of thing, no shame in it, I wouldn't.
My thing is just getting a different version of the game than other regions, I hate that shit, but if they just want to do this in general then that's up to them. I think making a stink about a camera pan of someone slapping their ass is petty whether you're arguing that its a grand crime they took it out, or that it's super offensive and damaging and it has to go.
My thing is just getting a different version of the game than other regions, I hate that shit, but if they just want to do this in general then that's up to them. I think making a stink about a camera pan of someone slapping their ass is petty whether you're arguing that its a grand crime they took it out, or that it's super offensive and damaging and it has to go.
First off, "no women whatsoever" creates a false qualifier as to what is released or not on a mass market. You don't create content for every single individual in the world, that's insane.
It's that thing, like, you can't predict what an individual will do, but you can predict what people in general will do. I can't say if you will or not go to work in the morning, but I can say that people on this forum in general will go to work in the morning given the demographics.
Given the demographics; someone somewhere in Capcom probably thought that, in general, women would not approve of this particular animation to the point that they would be put off by it, so they decided to pan the camera in order to make it less aggressive.
Is it true for every single individual female? Probably not.
Is it true for "a sizeable amount"? I don't know how much that is.
Is it true for the "woman in general" as understood by Capcom who is an abstraction created by observations of the world (be it sales data analysis, focus groups or just the world view by the people who makes this kind of decision)? I think it is. Or at least I think it is reasonable to bet that this is the best way to predict the behavior or this particular group of people.
They could be wrong about it.
I could be wrong about their intentions being to include more women as opposed to appease videogame bloggers and discussion forums, of course.
But I do think these kind of decisions makes more sense when you think about how they are looking at their market instead of someone being worried about the opinion of a sub-sect of players who like to discuss these things on the internet.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Wonder if Urien in a thong is going to merit the same attention. Although, I have a feeling he might be changed and that in itself is going to be a bigger problem.
Trickster
Member
Honestly that is the most bizarre change of all. At least you could argue that there were people who weren't a fan of the buttslap, but was there really anyone who thought the leg split was an issue?
radios shipping overview
Member
Because they're pissing off a few horny dudes who miss an ass close-up?
Wait that Witch from Dragon's Crown is in a Blazblue game?
Or because that's the only thing they changed. If they want to get rid of the stereotype if SF being a franchise for guys they'd need to change a lot more. Since this was their reasoning they probably should have kept it in to avoid pissing off the people who get super upset when their cheesecake is removed for little to no gain in women players and started with a fresh slate in SFVI.
Demoskinos
Member
I mean the only thing i had a problem with really is that they didn't actually "remove" the slap they just panned the camera up. If you're that dedicated to this cause I dunno... actually take the animation out entirely. The way the re-edited the whole thing just looked weird and like a rushed job. Take out the butt slap whatever we already get to stare at her and cammy's asses like 90% of the time they are on screen anyways. Just don't make the changes you make feel cheap and quickly thrown together.
That's the thing though, there's other stuff in this game that would give them a greater fear of loosing female customers than just a butt slap.
We've seen large amounts boob jiggle in the character select screens during early stream showings that made it into the ESRB rating and sexy outfits showing big tits and fat asses in full force.
So it's an odd decision to make for those reasons unless they plan to address more in the future.
Trickster
Member
Not like people can't see it if they want tho? Its on youtube, in gif form, in webm form.
It's just a silly change with highly flawed reasoning if what Ono says is the genuine truth for why they changed it.
I dunno, it feels like half-assed (no pun intended) excuse.
The character's design themselves are not gonna change and I doubt very much people complaining about them before have any interest playing SF5 afterwards. On the other hand we now just have some weird angle. I don't even know for whom he's trying to appeal with thism ove (except maybe t-rating). But as long as having sexualized character, would be nice to not be treated like prudish kid at the same time. Either go all in or ir you're gonna go with this mentality, change everything (and they're not gonna do that)
The character's design themselves are not gonna change and I doubt very much people complaining about them before have any interest playing SF5 afterwards. On the other hand we now just have some weird angle. I don't even know for whom he's trying to appeal with thism ove (except maybe t-rating). But as long as having sexualized character, would be nice to not be treated like prudish kid at the same time. Either go all in or ir you're gonna go with this mentality, change everything (and they're not gonna do that)
AcademicSaucer
Member
Nothing modders cant fix
lensoftruth
Member
People don't care about the change. It's the fact they felt in necessary.
radios shipping overview
Member
Yeah! They shouldn't try to change anything at all, so that they can avoid pissing off the loudest complainers who will ultimately still buy the game. They definitely shouldn't make small changes over time in order to help the game reach people who might not have bought it otherwise.
You really think an ass slap is the same as someone taking out their dick and rubbing the head?
lensoftruth
Member
Sangria is mostly naked dude!
I do and I feel like I've been pretty vocal in my dislike of the female characters designs in this game (minus Karin, who I dislike for other reasons).
It just feels like a half assed change to me that will make no difference other than making a few people upset. Like I said I do want change, but it needs to be bigger to make any sort of a difference.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
A better comparison would be a close up of Zangief slapping his ass.
Which they should totally also do because that'd be hilarious.
NoctisVsStar
Member
It seems weird this demand that since there are other things that are potentially problematic, they either address all of them or none of them.
Who knows how they arrive at this kind of decision, but they clearly did believed that:
1 - This one animation was the only one (that was already in a trailer at least) that needed changing.
2 - That panning the camera was enough to make it less offensive.
3 - That the other stuff is ok by their standards.
If it is the optimal decision or not; I don't know. What I also don't know is why people are puzzled by the fact that they can think some sexualization is ok, but that this one in particular is not.
They obviously are not in a cruzade against all forms of fanservice in their game, since there's still plenty of it; but this one in particular stood out enough that they decided to change it. So they did.
I don't think that addresses my question, exactly.
They shrunk her voluptuousness.
Trickster
Member
So at what point would enough be enough change? I'm genuinely curious when you say they should just make small changes over time in order to appease potential buyers.
Also, love the attitude of "fuck these guys, they're buying the game anyway afterall" you seem to have going on.
I don't think that addresses my question, exactly.
They shrunk her voluptuousness.
And you don't a dress MY question lol
So she's a guest character or something?
DICKS AHOY
Banned
you can't talk you censored out velma's boobs in your avatar
Dark Ninja
Member
Just making PC the definite version, modders will "fix" this issue.
My guess it was/could cause too many clipping issues so they just removed to potential problems
My guess it was/could cause too many clipping issues so they just removed to potential problems
And you don't a dress MY question lol
So she's a guest character or something?
Actually, I just out about that inclusion myself, heh.
You are in the internet. You can press a few buttons on your keyboard and see a woman dressed as a clown getting fucked with an oversized shoe (I think, if not, please pay me some royalties for when it inevitably happen).
radios shipping overview
Member
I'm not saying that's what they should do, I'm saying that's what it looks like they're doing right now, while development is still in progress.
A potential sale is always a higher priority for marketing efforts than a guaranteed sale.