• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Zenimax v Oculus now heading to jury. Zenimax asking for $4 billion in damages

B

Branduil

Member
pkScary said:
Guys: if you want VR to have a bright future, Oculus should win this case. Even though many of your criticisms against Oculus are valid, HTC/Valve need a strong competitor nipping at their heels in order to drive innovation forward.

What would happen to SteamVR without Oculus? Look no further than Intel's lack of innovation, stagnating performance, and chronic delays ever since AMD has stopped mounting strong competition. Competition is inherently beneficial for consumers. Even if you hate Oculus and/or Palmer Luckey, for whatever reason, you should be rooting for them here - for your own benefit.
Click to expand...

Nah, a Nazi like Luckey losing is of much larger personal benefit to me.
 
G

Gemüsepizza

Member
fred said:
2) This won't affect Carmack in any way. The man is a legend in the industry and won't have any problem getting a job ANYWHERE he wants.

3) I doubt that Carmack will leave Oculus after this, even if Zenimax win the case
Click to expand...

I don't think so. If they really have to pay $4 billion, he is done. He likely won't be able to get a similar job ever again. You can't be the CTO of a multi billion dollar company and demonstrate such mind-boggling ignorance when it comes to basic principles of employement law.

And being a "legend" won't help him much. He made a name for himself when the industry was very small. Today, there are countless incredibly brilliant and hardworking people in this industry, who also have lots of skills outside of purely technical areas. I wouldn't be suprised if he will go back to making games, maybe even an indie game or something like that.

And for his sake, I hope Facebook/Oculus won't sue him for damages.
 
C

Chumley

Banned
pkScary said:
Guys: if you want VR to have a bright future, Oculus should win this case. Even though many of your criticisms against Oculus are valid, HTC/Valve need a strong competitor nipping at their heels in order to drive innovation forward.

What would happen to SteamVR without Oculus? Look no further than Intel's lack of innovation, stagnating performance, and chronic delays ever since AMD has stopped mounting strong competition. Competition is inherently beneficial for consumers. Even if you hate Oculus and/or Palmer Luckey, for whatever reason, you should be rooting for them here - for your own benefit.
Click to expand...

Oculus can crash and burn for all I care if it means putting an end to Nazi movements being funded. America is in the middle of a national emergency, the future of VR takes a very distant backseat.

fred said:
1) Even if Oculus lose and Facebook have to fork out the entire $4bn (they may lose but there's a good chance that they'll win anyway imo, and it's VERY doubtful that they'll have to fork out the maximum amount of cash in this cash grab, again, imo) it won't affect the running of Oculus in the slightest. $4bn isn't a great deal of money for Facebook (which in itself is a bit frightening tbh) and Zenimax haven't demanded that Oculus stop selling the Rift or that Oculus stop producing content for the Rift or that Oculus stop selling Oculus Rift content for the Rift. Like I've said, it's a blatant cash grab.

2) This won't affect Carmack in any way. The man is a legend in the industry and won't have any problem getting a job ANYWHERE he wants.

3) I doubt that Carmack will leave Oculus after this, even if Zenimax win the case

4) Unfortunately a good chunk of whatever settlement they get should they win will go to their lawyers plus the upper management of Zenimax. You'll see some going towards development for various projects but don't expect them put put too much towards that because, well, lawyers and upper management (who also happen to be lawyers I think..? I could be wrong but I'm sure I saw someone on this thread mentioning that).



What I'm not sure about is what happens if Zenimax loses this case and Oculus win..? Do the Oculus lawyers put in a counter claim for costs, compensation and damages..? No idea how these things work. If they do then that means that, in theory, Oculus can counter-claim $4bn, can't they..?

$4bn is what Zuckerberg probably has down the back of his sofa, but how much cash reserves does Zenimax have..?

As much as I LOVE the Elder Scrolls and Fallout franchises I hope that Zenimax lose this case, and lose a good chunk of change in the process. The Zenimax upper management had the chance to invest in this early on in terms of both time and money and they didn't bother. And now they're sore about it. They don't deserve a damned thing from Oculus, particularly considering the disrespect they showed Oculus during that now infamous meeting where they called the Oculus upper management staff 'kids' and demanded a ridiculous 15% stake.
Click to expand...

If Carmack is responsible for a $4b loss, his career is over. He'll have to go back to rockets.
 
F

fred

Member
I find it odd that so many people are thinking that Oculus is finished if they lose this. They'll be fine. They'll still make Rifts, they'll still continue to sell and fund VR games and experiences, they'll still continue their R&D for the CV2.

In the unlikely event that the jury decide to award Zenimax the full (and completely ridiculous) $4bn claim it won't make ANY difference to commercial VR. None.

I can see them awarding Zenimax a maximum of $500m. Christ on a fucking bike the original piss taking 15% that they wanted would only amount to $300m after Oculus had been sold.

Now if Zenimax had been working on a VR headset themselves that would be a different story, but they weren't going anywhere near it, they thought that this VR generation will be the third VR generation to fail. And it turns out that that decision was an atrocious one. It reminds me a little of 20th Century Fox's awful decision not to produce and sell Star Wars merchadise and to give George Lucas permission to do it himself. I've always found that hilarious lmfao
 
T

Tagyhag

Member
ChrisMahoney said:
Cheap VR for more than just games? Yeah I do
Click to expand...

Well I guess I should say high-end VR.

pkScary said:
Guys: if you want VR to have a bright future, Oculus should win this case. Even though many of your criticisms against Oculus are valid, HTC/Valve need a strong competitor nipping at their heels in order to drive innovation forward.

What would happen to SteamVR without Oculus? Look no further than Intel's lack of innovation, stagnating performance, and chronic delays ever since AMD has stopped mounting strong competition. Competition is inherently beneficial for consumers. Even if you hate Oculus and/or Palmer Luckey, for whatever reason, you should be rooting for them here - for your own benefit.
Click to expand...

Others would just take the mantle. I don't see Valve suddenly closing down OpenVR or charging us for online when they have no competition.
 
J

Just_myles

Member
Pie and Beans said:
Oculus was a flubbed company all the way along.

- Not thinking through the legal ramifications of hiring Carmack and using his Zenimax work.
- Sitting on Crescent Bay and just letting competitors roll out
- Their several appalling presentations/press conferences.
- Not developing motion controllers early on, shipping with Xbox controller (worst controller for VR of the current gen)
- Sudden walled garden and attempt to lock out PC 'hacks'
- Botched launch, insane price, real shipping problems, disgraceful treatment of markets outside America

and thats all before Luckey went cuckoo. I'm glad the future of VR is in Valve and Sony's hands, because Oculus screwed the pooch.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. Carmack should have at least waited a certain amount of time after any non-compete disclosures expired. He should have went low-key.

Besides, Wilkinson argued, ZeniMax never valued virtual reality — let alone its own trade secrets — and failed to make a timely claim to the use of its technology. She called ZeniMax CEO Robert Altman's focus on AAA games a ”narrow strategy," one that never saw VR as something viable in the marketplace.
Click to expand...

This is why, imo, Facebook will lose and try to settle out of court(just like they did for their own court case). If I was Zenimiax I would take a smaller lump sum and a backend licensing agreement. It's still their technology, no matter how you slice it. Don't know how John could have not seen this.
 
V

Vulcano's assistant

Banned
Man that's going to be a "hard to watch" trial if they just bring all the wildcard dubiously legal stuff Carmack used to do when he was a teen and when he started id. I imagine they could go hard against his character when brought as witness.
 
G

Gemüsepizza

Member
fred said:
I find it odd that so many people are thinking that Oculus is finished if they lose this. They'll be fine. They'll still make Rifts, they'll still continue to sell and fund VR games and experiences, they'll still continue their R&D for the CV2.
Click to expand...

If it turns out that Oculus products are based on Zenimax properties, a one time payment of $4 billion might not even be enough. Maybe they even have to stop making those products (in this form), or they have to pay licensing fees. This could become unprofitable very quickly for facebook.

In the unlikely event that the jury decide to award Zenimax the full (and completely ridiculous) $4bn claim it won't make ANY difference to commercial VR. None.

I can see them awarding Zenimax a maximum of $500m. Christ on a fucking bike the original piss taking 15% that they wanted would only amount to $300m after Oculus had been sold.
Click to expand...

I don't find it that unlikely that they will get awarded a very high amount of money. Depending on how much of the work is considered to be Zenimax property, and if you look at how much Facebook payed for Oculus, this could get pretty ugly.

But you are certainly right when it comes to the future of commercial VR. There are several other companies who are much more important for VR right now, especially Sony.
 
W

Wallach

Member
Vulcano's assistant said:
Man that's going to be a "hard to watch" trial if they just bring all the wildcard dubiously legal stuff Carmack used to do when he was a teen and when he started id. I imagine they could go hard against his character when brought as witness.
Click to expand...

Er, the trial is over. The jury is expected to deliver a result Monday.
 
K

K.Jack

Knowledge is power, guard it well
PFD said:
This is absurd, is Zenimax even worth 4 billion? Can you have more damages than you are worth?
Click to expand...

Uh, look at how much Facebook paid for Oculus.

If Zenimax felt they could prove that was their technology, why would they not then sue for the revenue they feel could've been theirs?
 
F

fred

Member
PFD said:
This is absurd, is Zenimax even worth 4 billion? Can you have more damages than you are worth?
Click to expand...

You certainly can get more damages than you're worth.

I asked this on the previous page but didn't get an answer...

What happens if Zenimax lose..? Do the defendants put in a counter-claim for costs, compensation and damages after the result is in..? And do the jury decide how much to award Oculus..?

I've never paid much attention to corporation lawsuits before.

Could losing this potentially sink Zenimax..? If I was on the jury I'd award in favour of Oculus and award them $4bn just because Zenimax are taking the piss lmfao
 
A

Armaros

Member
Just_myles said:
Pretty much this. Carmack should have at least waited a certain amount of time after any non-compete disclosures expired. He should have went low-key.



This is why, imo, Facebook will lose and try to settle out of court(just like they did for their own court case). If I was Zenimiax I would take a smaller lump sum and a backend licensing agreement. It's still their technology, no matter how you slice it. Don't know how John could have not seen this.
Click to expand...

The biggest facepalm is him going back when he quit to copy stuff.

Facepalm
 
K

Kintaco

Member
PFD said:
This is absurd, is Zenimax even worth 4 billion? Can you have more damages than you are worth?
Click to expand...
What a stupid comment. So if a homeless guy gets injured by a motorist, he shouldn't be able to sue for more than the $10 he just panhandled for?
 
P

Palladium

Neo Member
I liked how 2016 was so hyped by the industry to finally the be "year of VR" and while the fad-weary consumers just let out a collective meh.
 
N

Nzyme32

Member
Palladium said:
I liked how 2016 was so hyped by the industry to finally the be "year of VR" and while the fad-weary consumers just let out a collective meh.
Click to expand...

It wasn't "hyped" as something that was going to be immediately "mainstream" / "for the masses" etc etc. In fact not only has this consistently been shot down by the engine developers and platform holders (particularly on the PC side of things), but they even warned of the ridiculous crap poorly informed analyst jumped on. If you believed all that and general marketing nonsense from some companies, then of course what do you expect. Most folk discussing it that are a little bit informed have been saying this pretty regularly. Many years to go for it to be "mainstream"
 
P

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Palladium said:
I liked how 2016 was so hyped by the industry to finally the be "year of VR" and while the fad-weary consumers just let out a collective meh.
Click to expand...

PSVR happened in this reality. 5 million GearVR sold. Adapt stance? Y/N
 
R

rav

Member
I think it would be interesting to get Abrash's take on the whole thing, and Valves perspective as well.

Valve had been doing tons of R&D, some of that team split off to do CastAR, and other parts went to Oculus. Id Software did contribute to the Oculus via the Kickstarter pack-in of Doom3BFG Edition, but that doesn't mean in particular that any code wasn't rewritten.


Looking at abrash's blog, you see TONS of the basics out in plain view, it's hard to say that Zenimax could say they were the first to figure out any of what Abrash had already published before even going to Oculus. Just look at Abrash's first post in Apr 2012: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/page/4/

Well before the kickstarter for Oculus and I think that was well before Carmack was even talking about it (That I can tell: Quakecon 2012 he talks about VR, but that was in Aug 2012. -- I haven't dug into Quakecon 2011 recently and there wasn't an available transcript when I looked.)

Honestly, my take on it, is that Zenimax is not happy the Carmack left after the acquisition of iD, and they're trying to go after him out of some sort of vengeance? And miss called that VR was even going to be a thing. Now they missed the boat, and are trying to claim something that they didn't actually help curate or build.

I won't and don't want to be working for Zenimax anytime soon that's for sure.
 
D

Dreamwriter

Member
pkScary said:
Guys: it doesn't have to be written in your employment contract that anything you create during work is owned by your employer. The employer has claim to your work if you created something during work hours or used work equipment. Any patent attorney will tell you that regardless of your employment contract, be sure to keep your individual work separate from your employer from the beginning in order to prevent this type of situation from happening.
Click to expand...
Right, but there's been nothing said that any of this was done during work hours using work computers. So if the problem is he did stuff on his own time using his own resources, that's where the employment contract comes in.
 
F

flaxknuckles

Member
Dreamwriter said:
Right, but there's been nothing said that any of this was done during work hours using work computers. So if the problem is he did stuff on his own time using his own resources, that's where the employment contract comes in.
Click to expand...
Didn't Carmack go back to his job and lift code directly from a work computer?
 
Mikey Jr.

Mikey Jr.

Member
A bit off topic, but I wonder if thats why MS took of their VR bullet point on their Scorpio page or whatever. Because of whats happening here.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Really don't get anyone rooting for Zenimax. Lucky's money is shielded. You're not hurting him anymore.

I like Carmack and VR and the lawsuit just sounds more like bullshit opportunism by Zenimax.

And yes, Carmack was an idiot.
 
C

CrunchyFrog

Member
Evolution of Metal said:
Except for the people whose tech and games libraries were affected. Whether you like Oculus or not, burning 30% of early VR adopters would make the market slower. Potential buyers would second guess whether they are investing in the future tech or some fad.

No major publishers are making serious investments in VR games (except for platform holders). As far as I know Oculus was investing and granting a lot of money for VR devs, so who would pick up the slack?

VR platforms need each other. Sony's success means that major publishers have the access to the console crowd with VR titles. Vive's success opens the VR market for the biggest platform. Oculus success guarantees further incentives and investments into VR titles.

You can argue that VR can continue without Oculus, but the closure of either PSVR/Vive/OR would affect the entire VR market negatively.
Click to expand...

Admittedly Oculus is doing one major thing in the VR space which Valve and Sony aren't atm and that's full-featured first party content or content publishing. Valve's business policies of late are very much laissez faire letting the (indie) market pick the winners (though I'm willing to give them another year to show off some semblance of what they've undoubtedly been cooking since their VR prototyping days way back in 2012), and Sony seems to be only half-heartedly committed to PSVR on the software front with only Capcom's RE7 providing the first major publisher VR-centric game on the market. 2017-2018 is a real put up or shut up period for VR gaming, otherwise it's going to find greener pastures in enterprise and productivity use.
 
W

Wallach

Member
entremet said:
Really don't get anyone rooting for Zenimax. Lucky's money is shielded. You're not hurting him anymore.

I like Carmack and VR and the lawsuit just sounds more like bullshit opportunism by Zenimax.

And yes, Carmack was an idiot.
Click to expand...

There's a lot of folks willing to take some gross pro-corporate stances. Ain't the first time.
 
H

HvySky

Member
Christ, talk about the lesser of two evils and nothing more. Zenimax is deplorable, but Oculus and Facebook's response to the Palmer Luckey trainwreck has inspired little respect from me. I'd feel dirty hoping either side wins or loses.
 
H

Head.spawn

Junior Member
I hope Zenimax win, if only so they'll have enough money to get Bethesda a modern development engine.

Bust out an Elder Scrolls sequel financed by Zuckerberg.
 
S

StrategyFan

Member
i'd be more surprised if there was a programmer who didn't have a few files to copy after starting a company and working there for 20+ years

we probably don't even know the full story behind his departure and how much time he had to take care of that stuff

just look at all the stuff romero shared after he left, and he was only there for a fraction of the time
 
A

AAK

Member
Yeah, I can't see Carmack surviving the axe after Facebook is about lose millions because of his negligence.

Hopefully he can continue contributing to VR at HTC/Valve.
 
D

Durante

Member
rav said:
I think it would be interesting to get Abrash's take on the whole thing, and Valves perspective as well.
Click to expand...
Well, Valve's response to having all the research they gave away to help a small hardware startup (as well as a few employees) pilfered by Facebook was releasing a more advanced product more quickly. So in the grand scheme of things it might not have been a bad thing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

ZeniMax asks court to block sales of Oculus headsets
2
51
11K
nampad replied
ZeniMax: Samsung’s Gear VR tech conceived at id
24
7K
Raven117 replied
Founder of Facebook's Oculus hit with lawsuit
29
5K
Vanillalite replied
  • Locked
Widow wins $23.6 Billion in a Cigarette Lawsuit
2 3 4 5
213
22K
Tinfoilhatsron replied
  • Locked
Newegg wins 3rd lawsuit against patent trolls, legal chief sad no more trolls left...
29
3K
Dan replied
Top Bottom