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[Matt]

You certainly can get more damages than you're worth.

I asked this on the previous page but didn't get an answer...

What happens if Zenimax lose..? Do the defendants put in a counter-claim for costs, compensation and damages after the result is in..? And do the jury decide how much to award Oculus..?

I've never paid much attention to corporation lawsuits before.

Could losing this potentially sink Zenimax..? If I was on the jury I'd award in favour of Oculus and award them $4bn just because Zenimax are taking the piss lmfao

Even if Zenimax loses (which I doubt they will), no they aren't in any danger. FaceBook could countersue for court costs, etc. but considering this isn't a nuisance suit and Zenimax is on very solid ground, there isn't much else they could go after. They don't get to just claim the same damages the other party did.

Also, Zenimax isn't "taking the piss." Carmack fucked up, and FaceBook clearly did not practice proper due diligence. If I was in charge of Zenimax, I would sue too. It would be irresponsible for me not to.

Edit: And concerning your other post, a few points:

1. While I doubt that would end up being the amount awarded, $4 billion dollars is a ton of money, even to FaceBook.

2. There is a long history of visionaries not being able to find work in their field after shit like this happens. It doesn't matter how smart someone is if you can't trust them or their judgment.

 

[Chumley]

There's a lot of folks willing to take some gross pro-corporate stances. Ain't the first time.

They are both huge corporations. A major figure in one of them is a white supremacist and funds white supremacist harassment campaigns.

This isn't difficult to comprehend, and your post leads me to question your priorities here.

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

I hope the judge sends them home with an empty Nuka-Cola bottle (without the cap), a clipboard, 200 rounds of ammo for a gun none of them have, and an encumbrance level of 51/50.

 

[jimmypop]

I hope the judge sends them home with an empty Nuka-Cola bottle (without the cap), a clipboard, 200 rounds of ammo for a gun none of them have, and an encumbrance level of 51/50.

Cruel and unusual, sir!

 

[BrownieBrownBrown]

Goo Zeni!

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

There's a lot of folks willing to take some gross pro-corporate stances. Ain't the first time.

Lol, wait wait wait. So supporting Oculus and Facebook is not a gross pro-coroporate stance because.....?

Edit: They're both bloated beasts. One just happens to have a white supremacist as their cover boy. So guess which one people are gonna rally against?

 

[Liha]

What would be the consequences for Palmer? Would that be the end for the NimbleRichMan?

 

[Interficium]

There's a lot of folks willing to take some gross pro-corporate stances. Ain't the first time.

How embarrassing for you.

 

[Wallach]

They are both huge corporations. A major figure in one of them is a white supremacist and funds white supremacist harassment campaigns.

This isn't difficult to comprehend, and your post leads me to question your priorities here.

The white supremacist you are referring to stands to lose nothing here, really. You can't hurt him by cheering on Zenimax's bullshit. He will pay nothing regardless of what the jury decides Monday. At this point Oculus' success or failure is about Facebook, not Luckey.

What you guys are backing here is basically corporate power over their employees. That's pretty much the only argument that lends any credit to Zenimax deserving a dime in this case, because they contributed nothing to any of the work Carmack did on the project. That's despite the fact that Carmack tried to get their support and they chose not to. The code he "stole" here is code he wrote himself without any assistance or backing from Zenimax, who only tried to distance themselves from that work right up until it turns out they looked foolish for doing so.

Nobody but Zenimax stands to benefit from rewarding them for someone else's work. I'd rather see Oculus fail because their product wasn't good enough than because shitty corporate law was strengthened by a result like this. Zenimax of all companies doesn't need to be encouraged to engage in this kind of bullshit even more than they already do.

 

[Kintaco]

The worth of a human life is estimated based on the wage difference from the minimum wage multiplied by the fatality rate of dangerous jobs. Currently valued between 7-9M$. The homeless guy is worth 7-9M + 10$.

I never said he lost his life, I said he was injured.
The comment is still silly, it's not about what the company is worth, it's was the damage they suffered is supposedly worth.

 

[Chumley]

The white supremacist you are referring to stands to lose nothing here, really. You can't hurt him by cheering on Zenimax's bullshit. He will pay nothing regardless of what the jury decides Monday. At this point Oculus' success or failure is about Facebook, not Luckey.

Luckey's position is still the same at Oculus. He's still the de-facto head as far as I can tell since all they've done is stayed mum about his shit, and John Carmack laughed at a journalist who asked him about it.

If this case gets them shut down, it's justice by another means as far as I'm concerned. If Oculus would have fired Luckey and then talked openly about how they abhor what he stands for, I might feel differently, but they didn't. I feel absolutely no sympathy for that company, and the future of VR is in Valve's hands anyway.

 

[saunderez]

What you guys are backing here is basically corporate power over their employees.

Bullshit. If you do something with company assets on company time the company owns it. If they didn't WTF are they paying you for. It's not corporate power over employees, it's being paid to do a job. You've been compensated for your work you have no right upping and taking it to your next employer no matter what it is.

 

[irrotational]

Bullshit. If you do something with company assets on company time the company owns it. If they didn't WTF are they paying you for. It's not corporate power over employees, it's being paid to do a job. You've been compensated for your work you have no right upping and taking it to your next employer no matter what it is.

What is your definition of "company time"? Is it any thought or work done between 9 and 5? Any thought or work done when physically present in work offices? For key people they will often be working 50 hour weeks or more, and probably think about work at all sorts of odd times during the day (and maybe night if they can't sleep).

I'll bet he worked far more than his contractual hours...As do a lot of people...Do most of them get compensated for that directly? No. They may get something indirectly via promotions or more interesting jobs.

I don't think your argument holds up because the definition of work is so fuzzy.

 

[Compsiox]

How long until verdict

 

[Panajev2001a]

What is your definition of "company time"? Is it any thought or work done between 9 and 5? Any thought or work done when physically present in work offices? For key people they will often be working 50 hour weeks or more, and probably think about work at all sorts of odd times during the day (and maybe night if they can't sleep).

I'll bet he worked far more than his contractual hours...As do a lot of people...Do most of them get compensated for that directly? No. They may get something indirectly via promotions or more interesting jobs.

I don't think your argument holds up because the definition of work is so fuzzy.

What does the contract he signed says? Sometimes people are passive and do not go after changing unjust laws because either they do not think it affects them or they think they can just sidestep it with common sense (hint: they cannot).

 

[saunderez]

What is your definition of "company time"? Is it any thought or work done between 9 and 5? Any thought or work done when physically present in work offices? For key people they will often be working 50 hour weeks or more, and probably think about work at all sorts of odd times during the day (and maybe night if they can't sleep).

I'll bet he worked far more than his contractual hours...As do a lot of people...Do most of them get compensated for that directly? No. They may get something indirectly via promotions or more interesting jobs.

I don't think your argument holds up because the definition of work is so fuzzy.

I don't think the definition of work is fuzzy at all. If I'm on salary any work using company assets is the companies property. I'm on salary so the time the work is done is irrelevant if I use company assets to do it. If I'm on hourly wage any work performed while I'm being paid or on company assets is the companies property. If I want to do work for myself I do it on my time on my computer.

The fact Carmack copied stuff from Zenimax property (their servers or his work computer) proves he did the work on their time as far as I'm concerned. If he wanted to work on a pet project he should have worked on it on his own computer at home. If his contract with Zenimax said otherwise it would have come out during the case. Oculus's argument is that Zenimax wasnt going to use the R&D performed by Carmack at Zenimax, not they it didn't occur in the first place.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Hopefully FB have to pay out at least $2BN.

 

[Panajev2001a]

This is absurd, is Zenimax even worth 4 billion? Can you have more damages than you are worth?

Punitive damages go rightfully on top of effective potential economic damages depending on the size of the guilty party and it has to be this way if you want civil cases like this one to be effective.

If you are suing a company that pollutes a river instead of disposing of toxic materials properly and you fine them with an amount that is less than what the company would have to pay to setup and maintain and finance a proper disposal facility/process ... well... it ain't gonna work much .
Taking punitive damages and class action suits away would kill the remaining American consumer protection guarantees no matter how much the corporation promise misleadingly that costs would magically go down as frivolous lawsuits and punitive damages are the cause of high prices (yeah... and Epipen grew thousands percent in price because? Give me a break ).

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Er, the trial is over. The jury is expected to deliver a result Monday.

oops i'm an idiot haha.

 

[Lanrutcon]

This is going to be huge.

Given that I know barely anything about the case, I'm totally rooting for whoever the underdog is in this oppressive, corporate driven system. If they have some kind of catchphrase promoting their fight for freedom and justice, that would help me identify them.

 

[Durante]

This is going to be huge.

Given that I know barely anything about the case, I'm totally rooting for whoever the underdog is in this oppressive, corporate driven system. If they have some kind of catchphrase promoting their fight for freedom and justice, that would help me identify them.

Well, Zenimax has less money, and their catchphrase is "well, we might be asshats as publishers, but we don't tacitly approve of a white supremacist being the face of our company". Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside doesn't it?

 

[dezzy8]

Zenimax got this in the bag. Perhaps they can use this money to fund the development of a new engine for Fallout and Elder Scrolls.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

So either the winner's the company of Trump's brother and supporter wins, or the company of Luckey, famous asshole, wins.


I don't know who to root for.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

RoadToVR has a recap of the trial across 3 pages. There's no new information but it is a semi-decent recap of the trial. The last sentence is a bit of a doozy:

ZeniMax attorney Sammi posed to Zuckerberg: “So your plan for a $2-point-something-billion deal was to begin legal diligence on Friday, and sign the deal on Monday, over a weekend, right?” “Yeah,” Zuckerberg replied╫.

Ironically, jurors also have had this weekend to consider the complex facts at issue in this case and could deliver a verdict as early as today.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

So either the winner's the company of Trump's brother and supporter wins, or the company of Luckey, famous asshole, wins.


I don't know who to root for.

As the gavel was about to fall, a shout screams through the courtroom. "Objection!"

People turn their heads down the aisles. It's Gabe Newell, flanked by lawyers, holding a box.

"I spent two years hiring the greatest private investigators to find our STOLEN VR prototype. And we found it was stolen by BOTH PLAINTIFS!"

Gasps. Shock. The CEO's are all taken away. Gabe smiles. "This prototype also contains the true reason we missed this device: The source code to Half Life 3."

Bad people go to jail and we get half life 3. Gabe Newell becomes President after Trump runs crying when he realises a computer nerd is ten times richer than him.

Happy ending for all!

 

[irrotational]

I don't think the definition of work is fuzzy at all. If I'm on salary any work using company assets is the companies property. I'm on salary so the time the work is done is irrelevant if I use company assets to do it. If I'm on hourly wage any work performed while I'm being paid or on company assets is the companies property. If I want to do work for myself I do it on my time on my computer.

The fact Carmack copied stuff from Zenimax property (their servers or his work computer) proves he did the work on their time as far as I'm concerned. If he wanted to work on a pet project he should have worked on it on his own computer at home. If his contract with Zenimax said otherwise it would have come out during the case. Oculus's argument is that Zenimax wasnt going to use the R&D performed by Carmack at Zenimax, not they it didn't occur in the first place.

Yeah - I totally agree on using company property, saving things on company servers etc. I just think "time" itself is a fuzzier concept. I.e. i think I am agreeing with you that it should be possible to do something "outside" of work on personal equipment, personal time etc...even if that is related to the main job.

Will be fascinating to see what the outcome is. According to the RoadtoVR article, an awful lot of (probably) key documents are sealed, and so we will only know a little bit of the picture.

 

[Justified]

No decision was made today, deliberations to continue

 

[mrdeiz]

Who could have thought like 3 years ago that it's going to become messy like that

 

[Dr. A]

As the gavel was about to fall, a shout screams through the courtroom. "Objection!"

People turn their heads down the aisles. It's Gabe Newell, flanked by lawyers, holding a box.

"I spent two years hiring the greatest private investigators to find our STOLEN VR prototype. And we found it was stolen by BOTH PLAINTIFS!"

Gasps. Shock. The CEO's are all taken away. Gabe smiles. "This prototype also contains the true reason we missed this device: The source code to Half Life 3."

Bad people go to jail and we get half life 3. Gabe Newell becomes President after Trump runs crying when he realises a computer nerd is ten times richer than him.

Happy ending for all!

Now this I can get behind!

 

[Renekton]

So either the winner's the company of Trump's brother and supporter wins, or the company of Luckey, famous asshole, wins.

I don't know who to root for.

Wait, so Zenimax is tied to Trump?

 

[JNT]

Well, I can't say I didn't see this coming.

Regardless of which way this suit goes, it's remarkably interesting to follow.

 

[Wallach]

Wait, so Zenimax is tied to Trump?

Robert Trump - Donald Trump's brother and president of Trump Management - is on the board of directors for Zenimax.

It's totally bizarre to me to see people go "yeah man down with white supremacy" then cheer on Zenimax. Somehow fifty thousand donated to Trump shitpost memes is worse than the guy's fucking own brother who donated well over a million dollars so he could directly benefit from the nepotism that would result from a Trump presidency.

They're both shitlords but one of them is very clearly the worse evil in that context. Most people just get led around by the nose because anything past a headline is too hard.

 

[Lifeline]

Robert Trump - Donald Trump's brother and president of Trump Management - is on the board of directors for Zenimax.

It's totally bizarre to me to see people go "yeah man down with white supremacy" then cheer on Zenimax. Somehow fifty thousand donated to Trump shitpost memes is worse than the guy's fucking own brother who donated well over a million dollars so he could directly benefit from the nepotism that would result from a Trump presidency.

They're both shitlords but one of them is very clearly the worse evil in that context. Most people just get led around by the nose because anything past a headline is too hard.

I hate Luckey more because he supported one of the most hateful communities on the internet. These people are worse than Trump in their views.

 

[John Wick]

I don't like Palmer Luckey. Hopefully his luck has run out and Occulus and Facebook have to pay big.

 

[vermadas]

I hate Luckey more because he supported one of the most hateful communities on the internet. These people are worse than Trump in their views.

Trump fostered those communities. He elevated one of their figureheads to Chief Strategist and given a seat on the fucking National Security Council.

 

[Fularu]

I don't like Palmer Luckey. Hopefully his luck has run out and Occulus and Facebook have to pay big.

But you prefer a company who has donated a lot more to the Trump campaign than Luckey's measly 10k? (Yes, what Luckey did is disgusting, but let's not cheer for somethings that's infinitely worse than him in the figure of the Zenimax Leadership)

 

[DrZeus]

Can they both lose?

 

[Fularu]

Can they both lose?

Unfortunately no :/

 

[John Wick]

But you prefer a company who has donated a lot more to the Trump campaign than Luckey's measly 10k? (Yes, what Luckey did is disgusting, but let's not cheer for somethings that's infinitely worse than him in the figure of the Zenimax Leadership)

Lol True. Like being stuck between a rock and a hard place

 

[SeanTSC]

Robert Trump - Donald Trump's brother and president of Trump Management - is on the board of directors for Zenimax.

It's totally bizarre to me to see people go "yeah man down with white supremacy" then cheer on Zenimax. Somehow fifty thousand donated to Trump shitpost memes is worse than the guy's fucking own brother who donated well over a million dollars so he could directly benefit from the nepotism that would result from a Trump presidency.

They're both shitlords but one of them is very clearly the worse evil in that context. Most people just get led around by the nose because anything past a headline is too hard.

Facebook's compliance in letting Fake News rule the election is far more dangerous than "over a million dollars donated' which is a drop in the bucket. Fuck Facebook.

 

[vermadas]

Jury Decides Oculus Didn't Misappropriate Trade Secrets From ZeniMax

Haha, get fucked ZeniMax!

Additionally

The jury also decided that Oculus co-founder Palmer Luckey failed to comply with a non-disclosure agreement he signed, as did Oculus by extension.

They are updating the story as more details come in.

 

[Makareu]

Dont have any expert opinion on the case but like someone else said, I wish both could lose.

On a side note, it's almost like GAF jinx everything it predicts.

edit : reacted too soon

 

[Lasthope106]

Zenimax getting half a billion dollars. Damn. Maybe now they can use some of that money to make better games.

 

[LiK]

$500M holy shit

 

[Jebusman]

Jury Decides Oculus Didn’t Misappropriate Trade Secrets From ZeniMax

Haha, get fucked ZeniMax!

Additionally



They are updating the story as more details come in.

You jumped the gun there a bit buddy.

I'm sure while it's not 4B, ZeniMax aren't going to baulk at 500M.

 

[vermadas]

You jumped the gun there a bit buddy.

I'm sure while it's not 4B, ZeniMax aren't going to baulk at 500M.

For sure. I blame UploadVR for posting a partial story.

The payout is shitty for Oculus, but I'm happy that the ridiculous accusations ZeniMax made in their case re: stealing VR tech were shot down.

 

[rockinreelin]

Palmer has to pay 50 million lol! Guess he better ask for that shit posting money back.

 

[Justified]

Alot of the information is sealed so I guess we will never know what NDA related things Luckey violated, and so far it seems Carmack is getting out of this unscaved

 

[pkScary]

Don't be surprised if this is appealed, guys.

 

[Business]

Palmer has to pay 50 million lol! Guess he better ask for that shit posting money back.

He may have to skip a few glasses of scotch.