And the problem is ?
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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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And the problem is ?
The #notyourshield creator lost his job because of unfounded complaints to his boss, Kingofpol and others were doxxed just a few days ago and don't even get me started on #killallmen, Greg Costikyan's "article," Feraci's ISIS comment and more.
Did any of that show up on your radar, or just the garbage that random trolls on the internet pulled in the early days of GamerGate?
RockTurtle
Member
if you have an issue with something, you must have a pre-existing or greater concern preceding it before you are allowed to find something objectionable.
kinda like complaining on a videogame board and not doing anything to stop the mass genocide going on in certain areas of central africa.
Early days? That shit is still happening.
MikeOfTheLivingDead
Grapetastic!
If this is surprising to you, or anyone in this thread I'd say you've spent too much time in places like this thread listening to sycophants. I hadn't been paying attention to any of this but dove into some sites and videos over this weekend outside of the epicenter of this mess and was pretty surprised. When you step away and look at places that encourage open discussion with more than 140 characters many people who would be sorted on the gamergate side look pretty intelligent and reasonable and not at all like misogynistic monsters. While people on the SJW side (for lack of a better moniker) continue to argue about who did what to who, who hates women, who misunderstood what article, people supporting gamergate are putting plans into action. Seems the email campaign is pretty well coordinated, has been going for some time and they are having success with it. I'm betting a lot that extra traffic Totilo was crowing about can be directly attributed to people who are not friendly to Kotaku in the least seeing as they are often one of the daily targets.
VibratingDonkey
Member
Hopefully, some day, Gamergate will cease to baffle me with its headshakingly frustrating ways.
I'm seriously in the dark about that whole COINTELPRO thing. Isn't that a whole thing from the 60's and 70's? Don't tell me that it's making a comeback now and that GG is one of the products of it? Is that a thing now?
Please don't tell me that's what's happening.
EDIT: I'm trying to make some sense out of it, but all I'm seeing on Twitter is just a bunch of random tweets with that tag and how it's encompassing everything from surveillance to racism.
Nah, I just thought it would be fun to refer to the Intel happenings today with an over the top conspiracy reference.
Oh, thank God. I was really scratching my head there for a minute.
Edit: Hopefully people don't see your joke, get an idea, and run with it!
I try to read the "gamergate side" of the argument because I want to believe there is something there and the bad actions are not representative of the entire movement or whatever.
But until the "gamergate side" stops using a derogatory term ("sjw") to address the "other side", I simply can't take them seriously. If you refuse to address people with respect then I just can't believe that you're acting in good faith.
But until the "gamergate side" stops using a derogatory term ("sjw") to address the "other side", I simply can't take them seriously. If you refuse to address people with respect then I just can't believe that you're acting in good faith.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Nah, I just thought it would be fun to refer to the Intel happenings today with an over the top conspiracy reference.
You had me worried for a minute there...
deltatheta
Member
I've tried to figure out what the GGers want a few times, but I still don't really understand it. I'm pretty convinced at this point it's just a bunch of people that are angry at feminists for who knows what reason.
Who said I have an issue with anything? I'm simply stating the fact of when this thing blew up from my point of view.
Most "normal" people (like me) wasn't even aware of the ZQ controversies. This thing only become big after there's a dozen of "death of gamers" articles and mainstream media like Forbes start covering it.
And what's with the condescending tone? You sound like you think I care enough about this whole thing enough to be concerned or something.
Like I said, this stuff wouldn't even worthy of attention for most people without all the dramatic tantrum throwing from the industry.
But now it's like a train wreck, so it's semi-amusing to watch with some popcorn.
Oh and you can bet all the trolls is gonna pile on after this Intel thing too.
The megaphone effect I guess.
RockTurtle
Member
i was agreeing with you
it meant that you DONT have to have a pre existing concern to be able to have reservations for another thing.
or that you DON'T have to have a problem with Y, if you have an issue with X.
i was agreeing with you
it meant that you DONT have to have a pre existing concern to be able to have reservations for another thing.
My bad then, totally misunderstanding what you meant.
outunderthestars
Banned
I still have no idea how this continues to be a thing. I poke my head in here every few days and cannot figure out why everyone is so upset.
Things which I thought should get GamerGate riled up (e.g., the brand deal with Shadows of Mordor) don't seem to raise a peep. I mean, even this whole Intel thing doesn't make any sense. If GamerGate really cared about journalistic integrity in the games media, they should be pushing to keep neutral advertising parties in and game publisher advertising out.
It reminds me of the Doritos Pope stuff where the focus was on the gamer association with Doritos and Mountain Dew, rather than the giant Master Chief cut-out in the background.
fallingseastar
Banned
Hilarious. I guess you would see #KillAllWomen and think it is sarcasm as well?
outunderthestars
Banned
Well said.
Yeah. Tacky, trite, and obviously a product of a bitter mind, but still technically sarcasm.
Should go see an ENT doctor then.
What's hilarious is you thinking #killallmen is a real threat when it isn't even a thing.
https://twitter.com/search?q=killallmen&src=typd
Scroll scroll scroll... just people like you complaining about the tag or people joking about the tag. Why is it so hard to find this threat you are trying to claim is a real thing? Why am I wasting my time engaging people like you?
Ok, I'll bite. Given that this is my first post in this thread, I can reasonably claim that I haven't "spent too much time in places like this thread listening to sycophants." However, I am curious who exactly are these sycophants? Specificity helps.
Similarly, where are the places that "encourage open discussion" where the "many people who would be sorted on the gamergate side look pretty intelligent and reasonable"? What places and videos are you alluding to? Why not link them, or at least specify where this enlightened discussion is occurring?
"...people supporting gamergate are putting plans into action. Seems the email campaign is pretty well coordinated..." I don't think many following Gamergate would dispute that it is in fact pretty well coordinated (save, perhaps, for Gaters themselves), or that they are indeed putting plans into action. The concerns, instead, seem to be about the ideology subtending those plans and those actions.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Decent point! No, none of those things you mentioned showed up in the sites I generally read and have no idea what many of those words mean. Now, if I go and look into these, am I going to be shocked by behavior equally appalling and on the same level of magnitude as that directed towards Anita and Zoe? (genuinely asking)
JesseEwiak
Member
Let's see here. Let's go one by one.
Guy losing his job - You live by at-will employment, you die by at-will employment. I want everybody, journalists, programmers, and random trolls to be protected from being fired for a reason beyond their performance in all jobs. But, if you're going to try to get people fired, don't be surprised when people fire back, especially when you make yourself a target.
The various doxxings - As far as I know, the kingofpol guy let his "real" email address be known. That was just dumb, and open season on the various trolls to go after him. Again, doxxing is wrong, but unlike the ##GGers, I'm not automatically saying it was a "false flag."
#killallmen - Sarcastic hashtag that's a bit over-the-top. And ya' know, most men aren't in danger from abuse and attacks daily anyway. So, if you felt a little threatened by the idea, welcome to being a woman, almost daily.
Greg's article - Again, a little over the top. But, I prefer somebody being an over the top trying to protect the women in the industry over being over the top accusing everybody with boobs of being a SJW who is ruining video games.
The ISIS tweet - Bluntly, at least ISIS admits they don't want women in power. #GG is hiding behind "ethics."
I agree. Not everybody involved in #GG are misogynists. Some people are just garden variety conspiracy theory believers and other people don't know how basic networking works.
partyphone
Banned
says a lot about a movement when you have to reach and stretch to find slightly objectionable things when your main narrative is the gaming press is a corrupt cabal controlled by feminists hellbent on destroying games
Vipershark
Member
It would be great if you guys would actually source claims like this rather than filling up the thread with pointless snipes.
Pretty sure Rule #4 goes for both sides of the issue.
partyphone
Banned
the source is like a few posts up
it would be great if you guys could find a real problem to fight instead of titling at windmills
How about the opening five minutes of the Internet Aristocrat's first Quinn video where he rants about how the feminists have taken over gaming journalism for the past few years? Given how much the movement loves and champions him it's not exactly a stretch to think a lot of his followers think the same thing.
Or, that ridiculous image a few pages back with the Cultural Marxist stuff that people thought was so silly it had to be making fun of Gamergate, but was actually sincere (and widely shared by the movement).
Vipershark
Member
How much is a few? Give me a specific post number.
Yeah, I agree, that stuff is stupid. People don't have to agree with their views on feminism to be able to agree with them on other GG issues, though. There's more to that video than just the first five minutes.
Look at Ariel Connor, for example. She's one of the most vocal GG supporters and she has made it clear that she's a proud feminist (and has even spoken up against Milo, Sargon, IA, and other pro-GG people decrying feminism) yet she still supports GG.
Some people might have some crazy politics but that doesn't mean the whole group does. (Just to be clear, I disagree with the feminism bashing myself, so...)
Like what? It was full of unsubstantiated rumors that have since been debunked (like that Quinn purposefly DDOSed TFYC) and obviously twisted facts (like the "favorable" coverage she got) that are largely to serve IA's general beef with feminism, and a great many people ate it up without a second thought.
I mean, pretty much every famous voice on GG's side is notoriously anti-femnist. Yeah, there's some normal people too, like Ariel, but the vast majority are people supporting Baldwin, Milo, IA, Thunderf00t, etc. When so many leaders of the movement all share similar ideologies, it's not a big stretch to assume a lot of their crowd does too.
I think the best close to objective roundup of the different things going on in gamergate is the one that @PixieJenni did http://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/category/gamergate-you/ -- She asked a bunch a questions and collated the results.
The Raph Koster panel was not too bad. Civil and went through a lot of different topics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFf8uU0e1Cc
The Raph Koster panel was not too bad. Civil and went through a lot of different topics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFf8uU0e1Cc
tonysidaway
Member
The problem is that the toxic gaming culture has forced two women out of their homes.
scytheavatar
Member
Toxic gaming culture forced guys like Phil Fish and Adam Orth out of their jobs too.....
To people trying to present isolated quotes, demonstrating Leigh Alexander's assessment of the perception of games culture, or a more or less accurate analysis of the main demographic make-up of early gaming technology, or an apt description of those who had been flinging abuse at her friends and colleagues for two weeks straight (and indeed for years before then) as some kind of evidence of her decrying everyone who plays games or identifies as a gamer...
Please very carefully actually read the rest of the article around those quotes.
It's not an article defining an entire industry and culture (that she is a deeply embedded part of, by the way) by its worst elements, it's an impassioned call to action to encourage the creators and space-makers to refuse to let it be defined that way for much longer.
And to those arguing from a point of tone, saying that a response to the two straight weeks of absolutely disgusting, paranoid, deeply sexist behaviour, and the culture that let it happen, should have been more calm and reasoned? Or that it should have been ignored all together? No, fuck that. Quietly accepting or expecting that element as part of our culture, and it has been for too long, is what got us to this point.
No this isn't an issue that is solely the problem of games. Games are only one corner of the greater culture that has many of the same problems, often worse ones. But they're all related, and if the people who are most passionate about our corner of the culture aren't supposed to be expected to try and heal it, who the fuck can?
Please very carefully actually read the rest of the article around those quotes.
It's not an article defining an entire industry and culture (that she is a deeply embedded part of, by the way) by its worst elements, it's an impassioned call to action to encourage the creators and space-makers to refuse to let it be defined that way for much longer.
And to those arguing from a point of tone, saying that a response to the two straight weeks of absolutely disgusting, paranoid, deeply sexist behaviour, and the culture that let it happen, should have been more calm and reasoned? Or that it should have been ignored all together? No, fuck that. Quietly accepting or expecting that element as part of our culture, and it has been for too long, is what got us to this point.
No this isn't an issue that is solely the problem of games. Games are only one corner of the greater culture that has many of the same problems, often worse ones. But they're all related, and if the people who are most passionate about our corner of the culture aren't supposed to be expected to try and heal it, who the fuck can?
Vipershark
Member
Well, particularly the fact that he actually released several videos in that series and actually responded to things that were debunked and made corrections to them when necessary. I'm pretty sure in the second or third video he actually talks about a few of the inaccuracies in his first video(s).
I'm not going to go back and watch the IA video again because I have better things to do and it could be very possible that I'm mixing up IA's videos with Cameralady's so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on whether or not he rescinded the claims that were later debunked. There were a lot of people putting out that exact same information because that's all that was known at the time, early in GG.
Regardless, IA having issues with feminism still doesn't equate to the entire group (or even the majority of it) having issues with feminism.
It's not just him though. Almost every major figure (not literally every one) is a major anti-feminist whackjob.
I've seen first-hand plenty of people in various places saying "Oh they don't represent Gamergate" or "The information they provide is separate from their ideas" but no, that's not how either of those things works.
If they did not represent the movement, or at the very least large parts of the sentiment driving it, there would be more than the occasional "Oh yeah they say weird stuff but that's not what this is about." when they say something fucking insane like "Feminism needs a pope" or "feminists are insane". The movement have already demonstrated that they can make themselves heard very loudly on issues they care about, but apparently "Feminists are insane" is not one of those issues.
And for a movement that styles itself on the desire for near-objective, unbiased information, getting huge swathes of it fed to them by known manipulative crooks like Milo Yiannopolous, and clearly demonstrated ignorant and extremely opinionated crackpots, appears extremely misguided and/or wilfully hypocritical.
JesseEwiak
Member
If #GG truly care about ethics in games journalism, why did the whole "brand deal" over Shadow over Mordor involving Youtube personalities, who are supposedly more clean than the evil games press, which is something for people to be upset over, pass over with nothing but a passing glance, while people are still obsessed with Silverstring Media, the IDGA (Or whatever), and how SJW"s have taken over games journalism?
fallingseastar
Banned
Yeah, that is a completely reasonable response. My first post in this thread is met with complete and utter hostility.
scytheavatar
Member
http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2i039e/wb_games_has_dmcad_multiple_shadow_of_mordor/
If you look at reddit it's 50/50, some are outraged and want an explanation from WB, others are trying hard to defend them. In any case it involves Youtube personalities and you'll be left with the question of whether or not they should be considered games journalists. And guys like Totalbiscult has been very honest about their disapproval of WB's actions.
JesseEwiak
Member
Yeah, I don't have a problem w/ Totalbiscuit on this. And I was talking more about the KotakuinAction folks than the normal games/gaming subreddits.
Right, but imagine if it came out that say, Kotaku or IGN had made a "brand deal" with Shadows of Mordor, or to really up the screaming, Titanfall/Destiny/"overhyped" game of the week where they weren't allowed to say anything negative about the game? People would be calling for their head.
fallingseastar
Banned
Why are you putting it on the gamer's, and not on the gaming press to call this kind of thing out? Gamer's are only so involved right now because not only is the press doing a shitty job, but they are now openly ganging up and attacking their audience.
Pop On Arrival
Banned
JesseEwiak
Member
If any members of the gaming press do call Youtubers out, they'll probably be attacked because ya' know, the Youtubers are pure and doing it for the love of games while the games press are doing it to destroy the industry and turn it to a hive of SJWism. But again, why the obsession with the fact Zoe Quinn slept with a game journalist who wrote two small things about her free game, but relative quiet about actual pay for play stuff within the Youtube community?
And ya' know, if your audience sucks and are doing terrible things, yes. Call them out.
I think the point that was being made is that gamergate has used the banner of "ethics" to persue people, usually feminists or people who support them, for what seem like very flimsy claims about ethical infraction, but when shadow of Mordor engages in what on the surface is a VERY ethically questionable deal, none of the gamegaters kick up a stink because it's not a part of their narrative about how the press and feminists hate your games.
RockTurtle
Member
this sounds rather sinister
JesseEwiak
Member
What's wrong with disclosure? I know the name of every person who writes for Polygon, Kotaku, and so on. There are no Sushi X's anymore. Why shouldn't I know the real name of people who are against them? Instead of hiding behind silly names? I mean, if their cause is so just, why not step out into the light?
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