Happy-Bunny
Banned
Yeah... I guess it was because they were eloquent people.
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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
- Thread starter besada
- Start date
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Yeah... I guess it was because they were eloquent people.
RockTurtle
Member
by tricking them into signing petitions for ulterior motives? uhh ok :/
Maybe it's just me... but I feel like the harassment has calmed down a lot on both sides.
A game dev from Riot Games left her suicide note on Twitter and a lot of people have been handling it respectfully. Aside from one guy calling up a feminist dev and laughing at him moments after the suicide...while he was trying to stop her.
That's rough...but hopefully this leads to an understanding that there are real people on the internet that need more support and less hatred.
Doot dooot doooooot.
That's the That isn't a thing that is happening horn.
It's been blowing a lot lately.
Needs some maintenance, it's really not certified for this kind of mileage.
I don't know the full issue at hand here. I gather from a smattering of posts that people are outraged that YouTube personalities are getting paid for making videos on new game releases? If there is something specific, I'd like to read it.
However, I have to ask this: What exactly would you (IE: anybody with an opinion on this) want the gaming press to do here? I run a gaming news site. I do reviews when I have the time to do so. I'm not a Polygon, I'm not IGN, I'm not GameSpot. I'm nowhere near as large as those guys or those website personalities are. So, if I were to write anything about this, how does it look to an outsider?
Besides essentially falling on deaf ears since I simply do not have the audience or reach of the larger sites, it paints me in a bad light.
Even in my mind, writing up anything about this issue and calling it out would come off simply as nothing but jealousy. Oh, this Zips guy is just upset because he's not getting paid to cover these games like so and so YouTube personality.
I've been dealing with this kind of thing for years already. I forget what game it was exactly, but I had learned that Machinima partners received dozens of copy of a game. Yet my review copy that I had requested? Well, they ran out. IE: "Sorry, you aren't important enough." Amazing stuff. I later ended up buying it. By that time, there was already a saturation of coverage from everyone else. So even when companies aren't paying YouTube personalities, they still take precedence over people or groups that have websites that have been literally been around in some form since before the turn of the millennium.
It really does just come down to a Catch 22 of foolishness.
Don't write about this shitty thing that actually happens pretty commonly, and has already been written and spoken about plenty of times? Proof of Collusiorruption!
Write about this shitty thing that happens, way too often, pointing out a particularly brazen example of it, brought to light by a prominent Youtuber themself? Oh they're just trying to discredit the people who are taking their jobs.
If you've been paying attention at all the last month or so and your question is "Who says Gamers are the ones that need to talk about this?" then I don't know what to tell you. "Gamers" are saying that, apparently.
One of the dumbest things about this whole thing is the people they're trying and in some cases succeeding in driving out of the industry are the ones that have covered the actual ethical problems in the press in the past, rather than the imagined ones.
Don't write about this shitty thing that actually happens pretty commonly, and has already been written and spoken about plenty of times? Proof of Collusiorruption!
Write about this shitty thing that happens, way too often, pointing out a particularly brazen example of it, brought to light by a prominent Youtuber themself? Oh they're just trying to discredit the people who are taking their jobs.
If you've been paying attention at all the last month or so and your question is "Who says Gamers are the ones that need to talk about this?" then I don't know what to tell you. "Gamers" are saying that, apparently.
One of the dumbest things about this whole thing is the people they're trying and in some cases succeeding in driving out of the industry are the ones that have covered the actual ethical problems in the press in the past, rather than the imagined ones.
Meanwhile, while the GamerGaters think evil feminists are conspicuously out to destroy their video games, how video games fund arms manufacturers and the interdependent relationship between the US military industrial complex and the AAA video games industry are still going on without any criticism or pushback.
fallingseastar
Banned
I don't follow any youtube gaming personalities, but do they claim to be Journalists? Do they claim impartiality? On the other hand, we expect our 'journalists' to have a little bit of integrity.
I'm sorry, but once again, how is this LoTR games an ethical infraction, but Nathan Grayson promoting a friends game over other indie developers that he didn't happen to have a romantic relationship with, isn't?
And did it ever occur to you that the GamerGate people are not focused on the most recent AAA release at the moment? This 'point' amounts to 'but other people are also unethical!'. It isn't much of a defense.
Your drive-by shitpost has been noted and appreciated. Unless of course you want to claim that the 'Gamer's are Dead' articles ever existed? I suppose I shouldn't have said 'openly', because in actuality it was in a private google group, and only when it was later exposed did they play it off like it was no big deal.
Well I suppose you would actually have to try and make a name for yourself by providing a reasoned opinion on the subject. If publisher blackballs you for being honest, maybe you should write about that?
Hey look, yet another person calling on 'gamers' to do the Journalists job for them!
Is this the dev that was making the rounds in LA earlier? I felt really bad when I heard that, and wanted to give a couple of my friends a giant hug.
I know how hard it is for trans folks, I wish I could do something to change that.
Do these give you cooties? No.
Probably because the latter didn't factually happen. Unless you call listing her game among 50 greenlight titles before they ever had a relationship promotion.
Nobody was writing about Depression Quest before this blew up. That this keeps coming up is baffling. Very few places write about freeware games ever, let alone promote any of them. The like one non-user review on Metacritic is a negative one.
fallingseastar
Banned
So out of 50 games the one screen he chose was from Depression Quest. Right. I understand where you are coming from, but I also see where an indy dev who didn't get as much exposure as they could have comes from. If you can't see the problem here then I think you are being wilfully ignorant. Indy devs have spoken up about the ethical issues regarding the indy scene. You can choose to ignore them, but it doesn't make their voices any less meaningful.
Clarification: If you don't have a problem with the people who bring you news having close, undisclosed ties with their subjects, that's fine. Other people have higher standards.
That's what journalists already have been doing, but gamers are more prone to click on titles such as:
- "How this AAA shooter will rock your socks off!"
- "This console version of this AAA game only has seven thousand pixels less than the competing console"
- "Top 10 Booth Babes"
- "Reviews are in for this Fall's carefully coordinated release and marketing of AAA game - it's a 93,4 on Metacritic!"
- "How these citizens of third world countries are sustaining your luxury hobby"
- "This just in: The US military funds and employs video games as recruiting tools"
- "The gaming industry and culture is embarrassingly White straight male and a sizeable demographic have a difficult time admitting it or letting diversity into it"
Alternatively, not only clicks drive what content is pushed out, but also harassment and silencing work to determine what gets covered and what doesnt. E.g. don't even remind me about when Simon Parkin was covering the incestous relationship between Youtube personalities and game publishers that the fanbases and some gamers piled on and harassed him for speaking up about this issue. Or when reviewers give some overhyped game a lower score and so many people completely lose their shit - e.g. the Uncharted 3 Neogaf thread, or think about when GTA5 was reviewed by Carolyn Petit and she gave it a 9, partly due to the problematic depiction of women in the game, and as a result a sizeable portion of gamers harassed and threatened her - for giving the game a 9 because of issues of gender.
Meaning that there's a subset of gamers who actively go out of their way to silence and push back against a form of criticism because they simply can't handle that things they cherish and identify with are being called out - in this way, journalists and reporters and people who are dealing with gaming culture are excluded, silenced, harassed by gaming enthusiasts for bringing up critical issues that is worthy of attention.
But yeah, let's spend an exorbitant amount of time and energy on talking about evil feminists in video games, because clearly, THEY are damaging and killing our precious video games.
fallingseastar
Banned
Well I find all of those second issues you brought up interesting. Why do you think it is fair to blanket claim that 'Gamers' don't care about those things? I think a lot of the GamerGate people also hate the latest AAA release and would be interested to hear about ethical issues surrounding gaming as a medium.
See, I am with you here. Harassment of any kind is not OK. If you put your voice out there on the internet, some asshole is going to send you some bullshit. This is the reality of life. According to Wikipedia 40 percent of the world has internet access. That is billions of people. There are many millions of 'gamer's'. So you get a few mean e-mails and then go labelling an entire sub-culture as misogynists.
The irony of course is that it is the supposed harassment that gives these people so much attention when they go public about it. I know if I was being threatened, the last thing I would do is tweet about it. I would go to the police and let them deal with it. Do not feed the trolls.
fallingseastar
Banned
.
Because "gamers" have decided where the corruption, collusion, bias lies. They have their targets and they are attacking with all their might. Emailing, social media onslaughts, the lot.
Except their targets are mainly based around hearsay and conspiracy. Why not suggest that they might refocus onto the actual sources which their rhetoric is aimed at? It is this sort of thing that devalues the entire movement and perpetuates that rather than "gamers", this is just a bunch of internet shouty people who have an inflated sense of importance, reveling in the chance to attack anything that they may have disagreed with in the past.
If Gamers care about these issues, then why target women and journalists and reviewers who bring up political aspects and social issues when it comes to video games? Why not spend all that energy and effort and time on something that is actually justifiable outrage (with appropriate means, of course)? Why not push back against the exploitative labor conditions in the products that we consume? Why not push back against the environmental damage that our hobby produces? Why not push back against the political propaganda that our hobby conveys? And on and on.
The "targets" and "evidence" for this Gamergate movement is infantile and ignorant with an almost abhorrent lack of perspective of what the supporters are actually championing.
Don't downplay harassment and online terrorism. We are not talking about "a few". The women who gave their voices in the Escapist article had to ANONYMOUS just to give their opinion. Jenna Frank, Mattie Brice and Lana Polansky have given up because of the misogyny and harassment. Other unknown women have definitely quitted any future in the games industry and culture thanks to this. This is not a few. This is not small. Just look at this study that I posted a couple of pages back:
100 to 3.7. Let that sink in for a minute. And that's not talking about all the other studies and articles on how women face harassment online. Google "Female voice in FPS" and "does sexual harassment exist in video games" for video game specific studies on the issue.
That's not how the world works. You can't just let it be. You can't ask for victims of harassment to let it go or ignore it. The trolls are flourishing because no one speaks up about them and let them be cultivated in an environment without any accountability.
The main point here (and I believe this has been gone over a multitude of times over the course of the month, hence attracting exasperation) is context. What was the context of those pieces. Who were these gamers that the pieces talked about. Was it the negative population who like to froth and debase in comment threads and social media, who demand to be pampered and catered to at every step of the way? Or was it the people who (like on this forum) love games so much they create lavish and dedicated official threads and loving retrospectives, who embrace all topics and diverse gaming tangents with delight?
It was the former. Obviously so. If people wanted to take it as a slight against everyone, then that is also something they can take away from the piece. They'd be wrong, but they can take it away, but they'd also be assuming they can speak for the population of gamers out there who don't embody the footstamping vocal minority (which, incidentally, is a bit notyourshield). And this game loving positive population exist, evidenced in this forum, also evidenced in the fact that they have absolutely NO CLUE GamerGate is going on.
So I stand up and applaud the pieces. Highlight and cast out this nasty minority, we've all seen them at work over the past month. This part of the Gamer identity DOES NEED TO DIE and be reborn in a more positive and forward thinking manner.
fallingseastar
Banned
OK so tell the gamers that everything they bring up is a conspiracy, and then complain about them not bringing something else up that draws attention away from your unethical behaviour.
Clearly the 'journalists' aren't listening but maybe the advertisers will. I don't think Intel would have made their move on a whim. Attacking your audience is never a good idea. Especially not if you are trying to claim some sort of moral high-ground.
This isn't about a publisher blackballing me for being honest. I don't believe that was ever a point that was even brought up.
Now, I have written before about the YouTube issue. It's obviously worked out quite well.
It's also not as easy or clear cut as you seemingly think it is and I have given the reasons, based off of experience, as to why.
Doot dooot doooooot.
Dude stop it can only take so much.
I would more accurately characterise it as "but other people are actually unethical!"
But you've shown an aptitude for misreading intention in text, so I guess you'd be the expert.
I want to claim an infinitely more supportable position. I.e. that those articles, had you actually read them (or read them without going in having been told what they meant by manipulative idiots) clearly don't constitute an attack on "their audience" and barely constitute an attack on the people they're actually directed at, the awful people.
And I don't really know the Google group you mean. Unless you're referring to the semi-publicly-known google group, which again, if you'd actually read the contents of it, doesn't evidence collusion of anything, let alone coordination of the articles you're talking about, only two of the authors of which were even members of the group. That google group?
fallingseastar
Banned
Once again, you are attributing the actions of a supposed few to an entire culture of people who number in the millions. You are taking the word 'Gamer' and trying to associate it with 'hates women, minorities, and equality', when it could not be any further from the truth. I did not downplay any harassment. The study you cite has already been called into question due to it all being from IRC chats. This isn't representative of the on-line community as a whole The other study posted also seemed to say that men were more often the target of harassment in every field except for journalism, which would have also gone to men if they had not counted Piers Morgan as a celebrity, and not a journalist.
I honestly don't know who gets more harassment, but I do not believe that the ratio is 100:4 in terms of mean messages sent to women and men, respectively. I can see why you would only cite that study, though.
OK well like I said, they did a great job of making sure to label all 'gamer's' in this way rather than just those who harass. I would think that most gamer's would speak against harassment, but unfortunately they do not control the few retards who do harass, and unfortunately those who are harassed publicize it as much as possible ensuring publicity and even more trolls sending hem shit in the future. Any reasonable adult would choose to not engage with people who make threats.
Ok well you weren't very clear on your publication or the issues it has, so forgive me for jumping to something I would find likely.
fallingseastar
Banned
Ok I was just waiting to be called a dude before I could fall asleep. Thanks for filling that void. I knew I would be able to count on someone.
Moral arbiters my asshole.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Looks like little Billy told all his friends about the thread
Lalalandia
Member
Wow you come in posting utter nonsense about 'dozens of articles', rehashing already debunked conspiracy theories and shifted the goalposts between posts so much I think they're in the car park now. Have a good rest you deserve it.
It's amazing how many lurking GGers were waiting on anyone in 'authority' to validate their views as if the cowardly actions of a cheap marketing department were the word of God. Man I'm going to rip the next Intel rep I meet a new one how f-ing tone deaf do you have to be.
The audience needs attacking! And of course journalists aren't listening. Considering GamerGate has no idea what it stands for, what its endgame is, what is the point? The only valid sanctioned pieces by Gamergate must contain no thread of questioning what it is about, why it might not be a wholly positive moment or digging through the previous messes of questionable past behaviour.
Quite rightly, nobody is going to go near it until it all calms down and actual sense can be made. Look at the entire iFred debacle where the "justified" internet went after a charity for ammunition to attack "it's not about" Zoe Quinn. Which all turned out to be complete rubbish and ended up swamping a skeleton staff charity as people got increasingly irate at not being provided a smoking gun.
And this is the general thread of things that are brought up. Massive leaps of assumption that are painted as smoking guns, which actually turn out to be absolute vapour when the dust settles. And nobody cares. By that point it is onto something new, DARPA and cultural marxism and the "gamergate is not about" SJW intrusion of gaming.
The movement is absolutely lacking in credibility, nobody wants to listen because it makes itself look ridiculous with the constant onslaught of propaganda messages, drum beating and swarming outrages.
So yay gaming press, point your finger at these people! I am a gamer and I am right behind this!
ClosingADoor
Member
Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it any less true. Just look around online or ask some female friends who are active online or in games. You'd be suprised then how many people sent them messages and insults. It's sad really.
You don't think that the people who play games are no longer conforming to the stereotypical gamer? Because that's all she wrote.
You didn't concede that the targets and the energy spent is on ridiculous and unimportant matters. Enlighten me, what exactly is Gamergate specifically targeting in comparison to the issues that I brought up about exploitative labor, third-world dependence, unchallenged privilege, etc.?
When you say "a few mean e-mails", you are downplaying it. You are downsizing the amount and the significance of being harassed.
How so? Please provide a link.
I am just going to link dump you because there are tons of examples of why being a non-white, non-male, non-heterosexual identity on the Internet can be unsafe due to harassment and marginalization and discrimination.
- Study – 63% of women polled report being harassed while gaming online: http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/09/emilyami-sexism-in-video-games-study.html
- There’s No Comparing Male and Female Harassment Online: http://time.com/3305466/male-female-harassment-online/
- Race-swap: http://www.onthemedia.org/story/31-race-swap-experiment/
- For women on the Internet, it doesn't get better: http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/it-doesnt-get-better-women-internet/
- Reactions to a woman’s voice in an FPS game: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiY...eactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php
- Why Women Aren’t Welcome on the Internet: http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170/
- The Celebrity Nude Photo Leak Is Just Another Form of Online Harassment of Women: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/09/nude-celeb-leak-online-harassment-of-women.html
.
I've no idea which other study you are referring to. I was suggesting the articles analyzing gender in online video game spaces and how they are faced with harassment.
So I should trust your personal opinion and anecdotal evidence and personal testimonies by women in the face of the many studies done on women in online spaces because...?
Some don't engage. Some try to block them, some try to report them, but there are simply not enough security and measures taken to curb the trolls and the micro-agressors and the man-splainers.
fallingseastar
Banned
multiple people only responding to the very last, very least, important thing I had to say. I'm not surprised.
And I am not really much of a gamer. I play games a little bit, but I am not hardcore or anything. I can still see an issue with the way certain press and media outlets have behaved. I know that you cannot or choose not to.
Lime I think you should actually play a game or two on-line and you would see that everyone is called names. I am mostly silent when I play games, but It is not unusual to hear men talk shit to other men.
You cite studies from the sites at the centre of GamerGate. Not the best way to convince someone on the fence.
Lastly, I think you should think twice before using people from the third world as your shield because we already saw how that worked out the last time. Minorities are not your shield against criticism. Fuck, I don't want to side with gamers necessarily, but I feel like you are all either insane or work for the sites being accused. If this was really a non-issue then it would have gone away. I am only here because it is not going away.
And I am not really much of a gamer. I play games a little bit, but I am not hardcore or anything. I can still see an issue with the way certain press and media outlets have behaved. I know that you cannot or choose not to.
Lime I think you should actually play a game or two on-line and you would see that everyone is called names. I am mostly silent when I play games, but It is not unusual to hear men talk shit to other men.
You cite studies from the sites at the centre of GamerGate. Not the best way to convince someone on the fence.
Lastly, I think you should think twice before using people from the third world as your shield because we already saw how that worked out the last time. Minorities are not your shield against criticism. Fuck, I don't want to side with gamers necessarily, but I feel like you are all either insane or work for the sites being accused. If this was really a non-issue then it would have gone away. I am only here because it is not going away.
Just look:
https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=gamergate&src=typd
Noise noise noise. Where is the sense? Snarky comments, propaganda. There is nothing here.
https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=gamergate&src=typd
Noise noise noise. Where is the sense? Snarky comments, propaganda. There is nothing here.
Given how my post was in reply to your post, which itself was a reply to someone about the YouTube brand deal, I think it was quite clear what I was talking about. Even given the context of the first paragraph in my initial reply, it should be quite clear. Even after that, there were no fewer than three mentions of YouTube in my post, so... yeah.
You need to relax quite a bit with the whole "assumption" thing.
Neoriceisgood
Member
That tweet was a direct apology to someone who self-identified as non-neurotypical
voicing a complaint about her descriptions, I don't see how she's saying any of the things you're implying.
ClosingADoor
Member
It's just hating and complaining for the sake of hating and complaining. There is no point, there is no substance. If you ask someone what Gamergate is, they have a million different points that are all over the place and - mostly - make no sense.
lorebringer
Member
Dear Intel, Thanks for helping us shut up those mean women. Love, EvilFiek.
This is because you are not a woman. If you were it would be fairly clear.
This entire argument about "gamers" being all oppressed and mislabelled is coming out of an article written about video game culture by a woman who is deeply immersed in video game culture herself. One article, not all of them, everyone loves to pile on the Leigh Alexander one specifically, I wonder why. It takes a truly special mind to not understand the context of these arguments as coming from an insider to a subculture where language is typically more direct and exaggerated. I'm starting to wonder if this entire thing is driven by pure narcissism or if it's just a natural consequence of a generation unable to deal with points of view that conflict with their own in any kind of coherent way. I genuinely believe the social media bubble has amplified this thing into the realms of complete idiocy.
As your moral arbiter I'd like to tell you to calm down dude.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I never got the "but only a small percentage of gamers" argument.
I'm a soccer fan and I have no fucking problems if people call out asshole hooligans or talk about them. I'm a gamer and I have no problems when people call out asshole gamers or talk about them.
I'm a soccer fan and I have no fucking problems if people call out asshole hooligans or talk about them. I'm a gamer and I have no problems when people call out asshole gamers or talk about them.
lorebringer
Member
#footballgate #notallfootballfans
After providing data and arguments and personal testimonies, this is your reply? You can't concede one single point of the posts you have provided in this thread? You can't admit that women have it tough compared to men in online spaces? You can't see how disproportionate the time and energy spent on targeting indie developers and women in the games industry is compared to issues related to labor practices, resource consumption, political propaganda, etc.?
How the press and certain media outlets have "behaved" pales in comparison to the vitriolic misogyny, the dismissal of others' experiences and the social issues in the real world, the right-wing conspiracy rationalization, the Birther/UFO/Flat-Eart-Society worldview, the exclusion of diversity in video games culture, and the harassment and terrorism of women in online spaces within video game culture.
I'd say people supporting the Gamergate movement should get some perspective, as others have already argued elsewhere.
EDIT: Apparently you edited your post.
When being called something like "shitface" or "douchebag" or whatever it is that those young rascals say to each other these days is not comparable to offensive words like homophobic and racist and sexist language.
Studies from the centre? What are you talking about? The studies are years old, way before Gamergate. Others are just articles from news sites talking about online harassment in general.
Third-world countries as my shield? By bringing up how globalization exploits workers that among other things support our luxury hobby of video games? Could you please elaborate on this?
fallingseastar
Banned
Oh, ok I guess i missed it, which site do you work for? What are the issues you face/d?
The first tweet that showed up is "@ThatSabineGirl If I start seeing gamergate clans pop up in games I play they will be kill on sight."
So what was your point?
This is getting really old. Please stop. It just drives women like me away. You make us all look bad.
THE TRUTH COMES OUT
REVELATIONS ARE REVEALED
CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME
That the stream is full of senseless noise and snarky comments with very little actual worth going on. Gamers bickering, propaganda memes, hollow self congratulations, "we must keep on fighting", circular arguments between opposing viewpoints, chemtrail level ideas of conspiracy.
There is nothing there. Nothing. Nobody can look at that and think "well hey! That is a positive population of people looking to do some good!". If anything, that does more harm to the image of gamers than any such misread piece from Leigh.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Come on that Celebrity study is AWFUL, the data contained no standard deviations or p-values or any other fail-safe to make sure the actual celebrities they picked weren't the significant factor rather than the gender.
Second of all: If Piers Morgan was placed in journalists rather than celebrities FEMALE CELEBRITIES WOULD GET MORE HARASSMENT; He makes up nearly 80% of the male harassment data in the celeb pool.
That shows how BAD that study is, Piers Morgan by himself got more harassment than all other male & female celebrities combined essentially. (not surprising, everyone hates Piers Morgan.)
Don't go complaining that the studies other people cite are bad & then using a study that doesn't even understand the basic concept of control groups and deviations.
Me too. I am might proud that my club, Arsenal FC, is so strongly involved with the rainbow laces campaign to stamp out homophobia in the sport. And if newspapers call out homophobic behaviour, or racist behaviour of individuals on the terraces, I think that's fair and the right thing to do. But if a newspaper came out and said that all football fans (or a vast majority) would engage in such behaviour, I'd be fucking incensed because that's simply not true and a cheap attempt to fish for a different audience at the expense of stereotyping a whole lot of people.
fallingseastar
Banned
#GamerGate had nearly 50,000 tweets in the last day so I am not surprised. Is this really all you have?
If women are so hated on-line then how come a man was the most hated?
Now who is making the baseless accusations?
ok and now i am being linked to from that twitter. Maybe I should just quit thinking for myself before i get my personal details leaked.
I actually just got off a top-secret meeting with the rest of the feminist Illuminati about how to destroy video games. For transparency's sake, the meeting was funded by notable video game journalists through Patreon on the promise that we would have sex with at least five arbitrary guys in the course of our life time and in return that the journalists would make exactly 3 tweets about our future freely distributed personal projects.
At the meeting we also planned to devise a decade-long scheme where we destroy video games through a series of short Youtube videos on gender representation in media. Without comments being enabled!
Neoriceisgood
Member
... wow.
Do you have even a basic understanding of how statistical research works?
3/10. Not gonna bite.
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