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Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

Yawn.

This is going be a boring and pointless day.

That's a super non-Towny role. By focusing the lynch on one of two people, you waste a whole day if neither of those people are Hope. If you lynch me, you have absolutely nothing because, shocker, I am Hope, and you're on Day 2 with four dead Hope and no information because our power roles keep pissing around doing nothing, and in this case, actively restricting participation to two players. It also has a huge flaw in that it's tantamount to delivering a hammer on one of two players, but I'm assuming it activates at night, so you don't get any chance to ask if someone is a power role and back off. The very nature of the way that power role works - anti-information and anti-power role - makes me suspect it as a Despair role rather than a Hope role.

But hey ho, let's go through your points. First one is something about how I'm passive-aggressive. No shit when we have geniuses like yourself making actions like this. Maybe if our key players actually made sensible decisions I wouldn't have to, but it's fairly clear that I'm not needed to cloud judgements, you're all capable of making stupid decisions by yourself. Re: Hagi, I thought Hagi was less suspicious than scum. I don't have magical ninja control skills over the rest of town. You can't blame their votes on me, that's their responsibility.

The next one is some weird stuff about activity rates. I like to be active around the deadline, because otherwise you get Visualante'd, yes. You're also blaming me for Makai not giving reads again, after CornBurrito spent all day doing that yesterday. Finding me suspicious for posting lots near the deadline? Have you read any of the GAF mafia games before? People don't post until the deadline for some weird reason, so you can try and get information out of people before that and they just stonewall you like incompetents.

Finally, you just go over some bullshit stuff, again. I'm going to put this in bold letters so everyone gets the point.

IT WAS NOT NECESSARY FOR MAKAI TO CLAIM. IT IS ALMOST NEVER NECESSARY FOR PRS TO CLAIM

Let's go through the situation in which you claim: there are 10 votes on you, you need 11 for the lynch, and the 11th person says "you claim now, or I lynch you". Then you claim. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 <----- READ THIS BIT CAREFULLY

Let's go through the situation in which you do not claim: there are 2 votes on you, you need 11 for the lynch, and 2nd person says "you give me suspects now, or I don't move my vote". Then you give suspects, like the game is supposed to work, and then those people move on, like the game is supposed to work. Gosh, difficult.

You then say "we can't know Crab's true intent". Sure, fine, you can't. Doesn't mean I'm Despair, or by that logic all 21 of us are Despair. You then say "ah, but look, he said he thought Makai wasn't a power role!". NO SHIT. What the fuck do you think happens to a power role if all of town go "Yup, they're probably a power role." Open power role speculation is NEVER a pro-town move - CzarTim called Corn out on it earlier and I totally agree. Even if I thought someone was absolutely and totally a PR, I would never say so. Never. Even if they were going to get lynched - the onus is on them to find a way out of it (although I wouldn't vote for them at the point of lynch).

Finally you say Makai followed my suggestion. Fuck off, no he didn't. Makai had, iirc, 2 or 3 votes on him when he claimed. That's patently not following (my advice) just about to lynched, and you know it. Lazy pushing at its worst.

Then there's some stuff about my consistency. First you say I said "always give reasons when you vote" (true). Then you try to say I haven't given reasons (false), by pointing out I don't link to individual posts often. No shit, being scummy isn't about a single post, it's about a collective series of actions. If you actually read all of those posts, I give a reason in every single one, so you're lying. I gave reasons for those I didn't vote, too - kingkitty and Rest, so you're just straight up ignoring that.

Final one is just boring. I put it both ways for emphasis. Here it is: I am not mafia because I am active as all hell, constantly contribute, make actual reasons, etc.

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

So, frankly, I don't really know what to do. This is a complete and utter waste of a day. We can't talk about anything except me or kgtrep now. Do people actually want to continue that line of discussion all day long, or shall we ignore it, talk about useful things, and come back to it later?

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

Actually, fuck this, I can't even argue against kgtrep. In all probability I now think he's Hope. I can't see a Despair player choosing to go one on one vs. Hope this early in the game, it's just too risky to lose a Despair player like that so early on when they could hide. Utter, utter waste of a day.

Barrylocke · Aug 9, 2015

Crab said:
Actually, fuck this, I can't even argue against kgtrep. In all probability I now think he's Hope. I can't see a Despair player choosing to go one on one vs. Hope this early in the game, it's just too risky to lose a Despair player like that so early on when they could hide. Utter, utter waste of a day.

If your suspicion is right that he's Hope, how do you even think the the rest of the students should proceed? Obviously they should vote for that who they find suspicious, but in your eyes with your claims of being Hope yourself and thinking kgtrep is as well (I definitely believe the latter at least), how can you even see a good scenario of Day 2 now?

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

Barrylocke said:
If your suspicion is right that he's Hope, how do you even think the the rest of the students should proceed? Obviously they should vote for that who they find suspicious, but in your eyes with your claims of being Hope yourself and thinking kgtrep is as well (I definitely believe the latter at least), how can you even see a good scenario of Day 2 now?

There is no good scenario. This was a stupid day and town are playing very badly. If kgtrep isn't lying about his role being one-use, my suspiscion is that we're both just Hope players now, so I guess town decides which one of us will be most useful to keep around in the most interesting discussion of all time! Hoorah!

No, but as I said, I don't really know what we do. I'd rather people just talked about their scumreads for a bit, I just can't be bothered to get into a fight with kgtrep when a) I think he's a moron and b) I think he's town.

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

honestly, why the fuck would you use a role that restricts you to choosing between 2 players when there are 21!!!!! still in the game

what kind of chucklefucks signed up to play this round

SalvaPot · Aug 9, 2015

So kgtrep claims his role is:
-One time use.
-Hope aligned.
-"Glad he could use it" since he clearly prepared for it by her Day 2 opener.

Meanwhile, crab claims.
-The use of this role so early is a clear waste of time and dumb in nature.
-He is hope aligned
-Vote is up to us since, for him, we are getting a hope anyway.

By this, I think we can only deduce one thing.

kgtrep is useless for town AND for mafia. He is dead weight, there is no point in keeping him around since we know what he can do, despair player won´t bother killing him since they can waste their night on another target, and hope players have to always prioritize to get the despair players, so a role as clear as this one its going to be ignored until later on.

But even then, the fact is that crab could still be lying. This could all be a facade, because, if he claims to be town, of course he will be upset about the way the first and second day are developing, of course he is upset about the restriction on discussions and of course he is going to be moody as fuck about this apparent lose-lose situation for town.

Here are the facts, we have lost 2 ordinary students, yet we haven´t lost a power role yet. We could be doing a lot worse, but this is the game where if we let our guard down we are going to be sneaked on and realize to late we lost.

All this said, here are the pros and cons of killing each of them according to me.

So I want to #stabkgtrep
-Role is out in the open, useless except for sticky situations and popcorn.
-Extreme gameplay style with a clear desire to die early
-Lynching him will provide with valuable ASSURED information (Alignment, role specifics)
-Nothing of value is really lost if we get him, except maybe a hope vote, that this early is not that much

So I want to let #kgtreplivealittlebitlonger
-Clear eagerness to prove valuable to town
-His role is harmless if its true is a oneshot.
-Despair will have no interest in killing him so if he plays along and helps town (Or is town), his vote can prove useful later on.
-We can always lynch him later on.

So I´ll rather #crushcrab
-He is a mystery, since we don´t know his role and what it does, lynching him has the possibility (HUGE emphasis in possibility, as in maaaaybe) that we can get our first despair kill.
-His top tier playstyle is a huge asset for town if hope, but also a big risk if despair.
-The fact that kgtrep exposed himself to try and get him tells us is a strong hunch, and the points he makes to try to prove it as are valid as the reason why hagi was lynched.
-Lynching him will give us a new piece of information, one could argue more important that lynching kgtrep might be, since (unless crab is ordinary student) could prove vital or devastating for the rest of the game, but either way, information we might need right now.

But I want to #freecrab
-Again, him been a mystery means is a big big big risk to get him, since we could be getting an important PR for hope instead of despair
-His experience is clearly valuable for the game, we might need him around a few more days.
-He does sounds convincing in his arguments about his innocence.

So, all that said, here goes my vote.

VOTE: kgtrep

When given two bad options, I have to choose the less bad of them. I need to know what kgtrep alignment is and what exactly his role does, something is really irking me about how his role has to be activated at night and why he had to activate so fast and I refuse to believe its just because he had a really really strong hunch, to me, it seems kgtrep is trying to pull a fast one on town and trying to get rid of what really is the biggest risk to the game, crab.

If you are neutral, crab is your biggest risk because, irrelevant of alignment, he is the most likely to sniff you out and get you lynched. We have seen firsthand how crabs opinion have a stupid pull on people and how the mob seems to follow him, even if it doesn´t seem to appreciate it (And why would he? It gives him a lot of attention).

Hell, if kgtrep is doing this right now there is also a chance he is trying to distract us from someone else, maybe buying time for a hidden ability, or as I said before, activate a second ability of his role that happens when winning a duel.

So I just want to say, kgtrep plead worked. I am now far more suspicious of crab than I was before, BUT my curiosity about his role is far stronger.

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

We could talk about other things as well. We have four days, there's not four days of stuff to talk about in me/kgtrep.

Salva, what do you think of Sawneeks, Barrylocke, and CzarTim?

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

And also, CornBurrito.

Kalor · Aug 9, 2015

So I'm finally at a computer so I can write something more significant.

This whole situation is bad for town. Kgtrep reads like a town member who is enthusiastic to help and this comes across with the card game they prepared before the game started and the amount of work that they've put into their arguments against Crab. Meanwhile Crab doesn't strike me as Despair because I don't think they would take the risk of posting that much if they were. Posting alot with always draw suspicion and Despair wouldn't want to do that on the first day.

If I had to vote right now I would vote kgtrep as they seem more like a neutral role than a Hope role. Their role has the potential to help either side and effectively wastes a day if both candidates are Hope.

However right now the best course of action is discussing other stuff rather and then focus on kgtrep vs Crab at the end of the day so we get something of worth out of today.

Forgetting all of this for a second, there is a post I wanted to bring up from yesterday.

Makai said:
You are role fishing. No way I should tell you that on Day 1.

@CzarTim, a dogwhistle is a message designed to be understood exclusively by certain people. You said something that makes me think you are Hope.

I am at work and don't have much time for response. I won't get home until after the deadline. However, I don't mind making this a clear choice for most of you. I am a Hope power role. I still discourage everyone from disclosing their roles, but I believe I am in a unique position to reveal my role title. It would have been better to wait until Day 2, but I think it will be okay if I go early. I am the Super High-School Level Lucky Student! I was pretty stoked to get a power role, but then I started playing the video game and found out I'm the main character. CzarTim's nickname for me is Mak. Well...

MAKoto NAegI

I really don't buy this role claim as it feels too convinient. I started reading this and bought it until the last sentence with the characters name. With the roles being randomized it's highly unlikely that a coincidience like this would occur.

At the time of this point Makai had 4? votes on them and before the game they posted this.

Makai said:
I want to discourage people from revealing their role, even if they are being threatened with death. Star Wars was pretty easy for Mafia because all of the rebel power roles revealed themselves in the opening turns. Don't give clues. Don't make up a story. If you reveal yourself as a power role, you have put yourself in the queue for mafia night kill.

Then again once the game started

Makai said:
Fineeeee.

I am definitely not in favor of a random Day 1 punishment. The mathematical argument assumes everybody is generic town. The risk of lynching or even exposing our power roles is too great for this foolishness. Star Wars Mafia is proof of why it's a bad move. On Day 1, we lynched a ridiculously good power role. Every power role revealed themselves early, so Mafia had no trouble selecting victims. If people are bandwagoning on you, do not disclose your role; do not hint at your role's abilities. If you reveal yourself as a power role to save yourself from Hope, expect to be killed by Despair that night. Defend yourself with that in mind.

This seems contradictory to what they did later on but then things change. They even mention that they think that they are under unique conditions but I have to wonder what these conditions are? Something to do with their role or the votes on them. I don't think of Makai as Despair just yet but it seemed odd.

CzarTim · Aug 9, 2015

I too have some problems with Mak's claim. Specifically that he attached a character name to it. I'll put more effort into this game when it isn't the weekend. I'm still following the thread though.

Crab said:
honestly, why the fuck would you use a role that restricts you to choosing between 2 players when there are 21!!!!! still in the game

what kind of chucklefucks signed up to play this round

This forever. TBH it's making my interest in this game evaporate. KG could have just as easily posted his novel on crab without wasting his ability.

*Splinter · Aug 9, 2015

Barrylocke said:
Today, someone HAS to be punished between kgtrep and Crab.

What happens if no one votes?

(I am 100% voting, but I believe we need 2 votes for the plurality rule to take affect?)

SalvaPot said:
Here is the thing, kgtrep role is not an indication of alignment, hell, I want to think its actually a Neutral role, made to appeal to both despair and hope. And also, the fact that it was used so early on the game makes me thing its not a one-use skill, I believe he can activate it later on again. If it was a one-time skill, its more likely to be saved for later when he had more evidence or at the end game.

If he's neutral, what would his win condition be?
As for using it too soon: I would agree if I hadn't read day 1. However if you believe (as me, kgtrep, and others do) that Crab is playing a false Hope leader then this is the perfect time to use it. Look at the damage Crab was able to do in just one day and STILL there are far too many people putting their faith in him. Hell look at Terrabyte: I know I've already called him as Despair but his position on Crab went from "we should always be wary of Crab" to "I still trust Crab" and the only thing that happened between those two posts was Makai role claimed and people started attacking Crab (hence my post that Terrabyte's support only weakened Crab in my eyes).

And this is also a reason why I think this is a neutral ability, since that way there is no fear of getting a teammate, the debate is either with a despair character OR a hope character.

Well I disagree with you here. First off if he's Despair there's no risk of targeting a teammate as he knows who they are. Secondly if he's Hope then I don't think his role has to be risk-free. After all our most important power is our daily lynch, and that always has the (strong) risk of lynching a teammate.

Now, about crab, I honestly don´t have a reason to doubt him just yet, if I had to choose I´ll say he is likely to align with Hope.

There are many reasons to doubt him. See kgtrep's post. See posts by me, CornBurrito and ViviOggi near the end of day 1. See Crab's posts. This is not a clear situation (even if my own mind is made), Crab is a strong player with an answer for everything, and he will ruin us if we let him.

I´ll wait for crab to defend himself before casting my vote, but right now... I think I´ll rather vote Crab, since I am far more sure of kg neutrality than crabs innocence.

I would also like Crab to defend himself*, but right now he is refusing. I agree there isn't 4 days worth of discussion in this. Good, we can move on to other things when we're done. I don't think it benefits Hope to wave this argument away and come back to it "later", especially after kgtrep put so much detail into his posts.

*If Crab really truly is Hope, it would be very bad to lose him. But he needs to convince us of that today and SERIOUSLY reconsider his strategies going forward.

CzarTim · Aug 9, 2015

If anyone ever wants to say I'm scum, I will accept no less than 30,000 words on the subject.

*Splinter · Aug 9, 2015

CzarTim said:
If anyone ever wants to say I'm scum, I will accept no less than 30,000 words on the subject.

One word for every post you've made so far?

CzarTim · Aug 9, 2015

*Splinter said:
One word for every post you've made so far?

Pretty rude way to talk to someone who was modkilled and brought back to life, like Jesus.

*Splinter · Aug 9, 2015

CzarTim said:
Pretty rude way to talk to someone who was modkilled and brought back to life, like Jesus.

30,001

Blargonaut · Aug 9, 2015

CornBurrito · Aug 9, 2015

Crab said:
So, frankly, I don't really know what to do. This is a complete and utter waste of a day. We can't talk about anything except me or kgtrep now. Do people actually want to continue that line of discussion all day long, or shall we ignore it, talk about useful things, and come back to it later?

This is untrue. We can talk about why franconp is dead.

Zippedpinhead · Aug 9, 2015

I'm reading other people's thoughts on this whole hope vs Hope situation, and I think with a little more direction I may have some thoughts on who to target tomorrow.

Of course this doesn't help us today.

Personally, I am trusting of crab, and if he is despair then he has fully thrown the wool over my eyes. However, as I have stated, if this role is a one off power role (I.e. No other player has this ability, it only makes sense "in-universe" for a hope player to have it, just my I pinion though, do NOT take that assumption as fact). I think someone else has this power though, which means there could be up to three.

launch, the image that you posted, that was just flair right? Because you chose a very specific gif...

I hate that I'm overthinking this based on source material, but since I think neither of these players are "despair" then that's all I can do.

Not voting until launch posts his response.

CornBurrito · Aug 9, 2015

Zippedpinhead said:
I'm reading other people's thoughts on this whole hope vs Hope situation, and I think with a little more direction I may have some thoughts on who to target tomorrow.

Of course this doesn't help us today.

Personally, I am trusting of crab, and if he is despair then he has fully thrown the wool over my eyes. However, as I have stated, if this role is a one off power role (I.e. No other player has this ability, it only makes sense "in-universe" for a hope player to have it, just my I pinion though, do NOT take that assumption as fact). I think someone else has this power though, which means there could be up to three.

launch, the image that you posted, that was just flair right? Because you chose a very specific gif...

I hate that I'm overthinking this based on source material, but since I think neither of these players are "despair" then that's all I can do.

Not voting until launch posts his response.

He has said time and time again that source material means fucking nothing.

LaunchpadMcQ · Aug 9, 2015

Zippedpinhead said:
launch, the image that you posted, that was just flair right? Because you chose a very specific gif...

I hate that I'm overthinking this based on source material, but since I think neither of these players are "despair" then that's all I can do.

Not voting until launch posts his response.

I was considering posting this earlier, but I decided not to unless someone asked. No, it's not indicative of everything, it's just my favorite interjection gif.

CzarTim · Aug 9, 2015

CornBurrito said:
This is untrue. We can talk about why franconp is dead.

Generally speaking night kills fall under the wine in front of me category. This is day two, we don't know the average kill per night, we don't know which faction(s) did the kill. We know nothing and I don't see how discussing it gets us anywhere

*Splinter · Aug 9, 2015

CzarTim said:
Generally speaking night kills fall under the wine in front of me category. This is day two, we don't know the average kill per night, we don't know which faction(s) did the kill. We know nothing and I don't see how discussing it gets us anywhere

Well we can ask "why franconp?", speculation is all we have to go on but I don't see the harm in it.

I mean I'd rather hear from Crab but it seems he isn't playing ball

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

*Splinter said:
Well we can ask "why franconp?", speculation is all we have to go on but I don't see the harm in it.

I mean I'd rather hear from Crab but it seems he isn't playing ball

This is some bullshit. How am I "not playing ball" when at the very top of this page I engage with every single point made against me.

There is a core group of liars in this game - CornBurrito, Rest, and *Splinter. Each of them straight up makes up stuff, or conveniently ignores stuff that has been posted multiple times so they can post the opposite.

CornBurrito · Aug 9, 2015

Crab said:
This is some bullshit. How am I "not playing ball" when at the very top of this page I engage with every single point made against me.

There is a core group of liars in this game - CornBurrito, Rest, and *Splinter. Each of them straight up makes up stuff, or conveniently ignores stuff that has been posted multiple times so they can post the opposite.

Care to point out when I did that?

CornBurrito · Aug 9, 2015

Also you claimed yesterday that you townread Rest. But now he is a core liar? He only made like one post today. What changed?

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

CornBurrito said:
Care to point out when I did that?

Yesterday, when you said I suspected Rest.

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

CornBurrito said:
Also you claimed yesterday that you townread Rest. But now he is a core liar? He only made like one post today. What changed?

Town can still lie, for various reasons. I *think* I still townread Rest, but the sheer number of people lying specifically against me is getting to the point I am getting suspiscious as fuck.

ViviOggi · Aug 9, 2015

Well this has taken quite the turn. I'll read everything again in detail and share my thoughts once I get home tomorrow (hopefully sobered up by then). One thing I want to stress again right now though:

Kalor said:
Meanwhile Crab doesn't strike me as Despair because I don't think they would take the risk of posting that much if they were. Posting alot with always draw suspicion and Despair wouldn't want to do that on the first day.

I've argued before that Crab of all people couldn't play a middle of the road game. From my impressions that's the complete opposite of his playsyle regardless of alignment, and many people clearly have expectations of him. He'd be the first to stand out by not posting a lot. That'd be an actual risk.

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

ViviOggi said:
I've argued before that Crab of all people couldn't play a middle of the road game. From my impressions that's the complete opposite of his playsyle regardless of alignment, and many people clearly have expectations of him. He'd be the first to stand out by not posting a lot. That'd be an actual risk.

I mean, true, I wouldn't post not very much. There are ways of posting a lot but saying very little, though - you spend a lot of time agreeing with others, pursuing targets only when others have already done so, be gentle in any new targets you pick up and back off easily, look tentative, but spend loads of posts doing all the above. That is, incidentally, more or less my mafia play (obvious wifom, I know). I very rarely go full Lenny Kravitz and unleash the monster because then people who don't know how to play the game assume because you actually have ideas you must be mafia.

*Splinter · Aug 9, 2015

I didn't lie. I'll address your posts and why I'm unsatisfied with them when I get home

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

The other one is that every single town player in mafia games assumes they're so obviously, totally town and that their innocence is just basically obvious that anyone who suspects them must therefore be scum because how can you not see how innocent they are? Hence OMGUS voting, which I'm like 95% sure is what kgtrep is doing. Newsflash for when you've lynched me, are four Hope players down, and are looking for some new scapegoat: you are not obviously town. People can and will suspect you without actually being scum.

CornBurrito · Aug 9, 2015

Crab said:
Yesterday, when you said I suspected Rest.

Which I admitted was a mistake on my oart multiple times. Not an intentional lie.

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

CornBurrito said:
Which I admitted was a mistake on my oart multiple times. Not an intentional lie.

Okay, cool. So, best case scenario you don't actually pay much attention to people in a game which is all about social cues (and worse don't pay much attention to a person you're currently trying to lynch), worst case scenario you're lying for some reason we don't know about. Neither is great.

CornBurrito · Aug 9, 2015

Crab said:
Okay, cool. So, best case scenario you don't actually pay much attention to people in a game which is all about social cues (and worse don't pay much attention to a person you're currently trying to lynch), worst case scenario you're lying for some reason we don't know about. Neither is great.

Oh yes I made a mistake because your argument with Rest was fresh in my mind right before the votes were about to close. Forgive me.

Rest wasn't even my ideal choice anyway. My ideal choice was you but nobody else was going for it.

Terrabyte20xx · Aug 9, 2015

Just a thought on the voting for today: say that we come to a consensus on both Crab and KG being hope... If we tied the vote, would that force a no punishment?

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

So your ideal choice is someone whose most prominent pre-Makai discussion from D1 is something you didn't even remember clearly? Are you sure you don't want to re-read my posts again so tomorrow you can't go "Oh my god, I made a huge mistake, I thought Crab was Barrylocke all along?"

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

Don't force a tie. I'd literally rather you lynched me than forced a tie if it came down to it. Forcing a tie gets us even less information tomorrow.

CornBurrito · Aug 9, 2015

Crab said:
So your ideal choice is someone whose most prominent pre-Makai discussion from D1 is something you didn't even remember clearly? Are you sure you don't want to re-read my posts again so tomorrow you can't go "Oh my god, I made a huge mistake, I thought Crab was Barrylocke all along?"

Obviously I thought I did remember it clearly. Have you never misremembered something in your entire life?

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

CornBurrito said:
Obviously I thought I did remember it clearly. Have you never misremembered something in your entire life?

I mean, yeah, but I try not to misremember who I'm about to kill. Doesn't look good on the ole CV.

Ty4on · Aug 9, 2015

CornBurrito said:
Oh yes I made a mistake because your argument with Rest was fresh in my mind right before the votes were about to close. Forgive me.

Rest wasn't even my ideal choice anyway. My ideal choice was you but nobody else was going for it.

Some had been suspicious of Crab before you.

*Splinter said:
In the meantime: Crab, I thought the KingKitty situation was unbelievable, but you barely even mentioned it in your posts. Don't you have any ideas or interest in what could be going on there?

*Splinter said:
For the record, I'm not trusting Crab either. Well, I'm trying not to trust him. I recognised that early trust was based on wishful thinking, so I'm discrediting that until something more solid comes along.

Pau said:
VOTE: Makai

Reasons: Most votes at the moment. I trust Crab (for now?) and defer to my elders' better judgement. Next in line for my votes are A Human Becoming and ANuclearError as they are the quietest.

Rest said:
VOTE: kingkitty
That nulls one vote for swamped.

That's not a hard vote right now though. Crab, you look pretty aggressive, your posts feel like you're trying to manipulate the mob into being flustered, knowing people will make worse decisions if they have too many threads to follow, too many posters to think about. You confirmed that for me here:
You also deflect from kingkitty when you're questioned about your relative reticence in discussing his odd posts. You then deflected from him again without any prompting. My suspicions are high for both of you now. You're kicking up too much dust.

ViviOggi said:
Here goes:

Rest vs Crab strikes me as odd for a number of reasons. Crab makes a valid point in suggesting that we don't get lost focusing on kingkitty, and while he was indeed hesitant to judge the issue himself until challenged to do so I think reading his posts as deflection is reaching. Rest goes in on Crab relentlessly based on this, but doesn't really make a strong argument rather than simply repeating his core points multiple times. Possibly trying to take out an experienced Hope player early?

However, going back to this conversation I also noticed that Crab, while generally making sound arguments regarding the current game, has been extremely meta in the majority of his posts starting from #528. He keeps talking about how people should play, referencing previous games and so on. I get that he's one of the most experienced players but I have to question whether all these little nuggets actually help Hope or if he isn't trying to set up an elaborate scum smokescreen / leader position to influence popular opinion later on. For now I'm split over this but felt it was worth noting.

kgtrep · Aug 9, 2015

Crab, I sampled the quotes that I want to make a response to.

----

Crab said:
But hey ho, let's go through your points. First one is something about how I'm passive-aggressive. No shit when we have geniuses like yourself making actions like this. Maybe if our key players actually made sensible decisions I wouldn't have to, but it's fairly clear that I'm not needed to cloud judgements, you're all capable of making stupid decisions by yourself.

I ask you in earnest. How did you expect us Hopes to play this game so that we will likely win? Because all that you have advocating is we follow our gut read.

Post #528

Crab said:
This is not a game about logical deduction. We do not win by waiting for the magical PRs to descend from the heavens and bestow upon us the almighty knowledge of who the scum is; if the game did work that way it would be a bad game. We win by being able to make gut reads, and our ability to make gut reads is severely impinged at the point a player does not commit to anything.

Post #535

Crab said:
This is not a game about PRs. The purest form of this game doesn't have PRs at all. This is about understanding people and reading emotions and looking for tells. We get all of those as a result of people putting forward concrete statements.

The game that we are playing happens online. We cannot read emotions and look for tells as well as we might in person.

The only thing that we can reliably look to is what each of us writes in text and deduce whether one's statement is true and supports his/her previous claims. Your posts have been the most inconsistent.

----

Crab said:
Finally, you just go over some bullshit stuff, again. I'm going to put this in bold letters so everyone gets the point.

IT WAS NOT NECESSARY FOR MAKAI TO CLAIM. IT IS ALMOST NEVER NECESSARY FOR PRS TO CLAIM

Let's go through the situation in which you claim: there are 10 votes on you, you need 11 for the lynch, and the 11th person says "you claim now, or I lynch you". Then you claim. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 <----- READ THIS BIT CAREFULLY

Your scenario of when we should reveal PR works if the game uses majority vote only. However, we have to be wary of plurality as well.

So it is natural for us to get bothered by a few votes, and you did not account for this if you had the best interest for Makai and for us.

----

Crab said:
Then there's some stuff about my consistency. First you say I said "always give reasons when you vote" (true). Then you try to say I haven't given reasons (false), by pointing out I don't link to individual posts often. No shit, being scummy isn't about a single post, it's about a collective series of actions. If you actually read all of those posts, I give a reason in every single one, so you're lying. I gave reasons for those I didn't vote, too - kingkitty and Rest, so you're just straight up ignoring that.

My claim that you do not share with us their post(s) that made you suspicious always occurs when you make the vote with the highlight tag.

It is not our job to have to retrace your steps to who-knows-where to see if you really had a good reason. We certainly could not do this in time when you voted for ViviOggi, me, and Hagi on the last day.

So point us to your previous posts. (And please sample your quotes for us---I've realized how too often your statements are long-winded.)

Deleted member 231381 · Aug 9, 2015

kgtrep said:
I ask you in earnest. How did you expect us Hopes to play this game so that we will likely win? Because all that you have advocating is we follow our gut read.

Correct.

The game that we are playing happens online. We cannot read emotions and look for tells as well as we might in person.

Correct.

The only thing that we can reliably look to is what each of us writes in text and deduce whether one's statement is true and supports his/her previous claims. Your posts have been the most inconsistent.

Incorrect. Citation needed.

Your scenario of when we should reveal PR works if the game uses majority vote only. However, we have to be wary of plurality as well.

This is true. If you have something like an hour left, and you've given alternative reads and they don't shift things, and you still have the plurality lead, then you can claim. However, Makai claimed with several hours left and didn't even have a plurality lead, at a point when I'd explicitly said I would probably move my vote if he gave some reads.

So it is natural for us to get bothered by a few votes, and you did not account for this if you had the best interest for Makai and for us.

I did. See above.

My claim that you do not share with us their post(s) that made you suspicious always occurs when you make the vote with the highlight tag.

It is not our job to have to retrace your steps to who-knows-where to see if you really had a good reason. We certainly could not do this in time when you voted for ViviOggi, me, and Hagi on the last day.

So point us to your previous posts. (And please sample your quotes for us---I've realized how too often your statements are long-winded.)

I mean, I don't literally link every single post because that's tedious as fuck. I assume that you've actually been following the game - if you've not, we have ourselves a problem. If you actually disagree on my reads, just say why. As it is, you've not actually refuted my suspiscion of Vivi or even Hagi (btw I didn't even suspect Hagi, just Rest seemed to be the target of the wagon).

Do you want me to rejustify each of my reads? Or are you just pussy-footing with technicalities instead of actually disagreeing with me on anything?

CornBurrito · Aug 9, 2015

Crab said:
I mean, yeah, but I try not to misremember who I'm about to kill. Doesn't look good on the ole CV.

There were 20ish minutes left on the vote and I didn't have time to verify since I wasn't sure what page your reading of Rest was even on. Had people been willing to lynch you D1 I never would have had to scramble to find a second target.

kgtrep · Aug 9, 2015

Crab said:
Incorrect. Citation needed.

My theory about the only thing that we can reliably look to is text no more correct/incorrect than your theory about it being gut read.

If you know of any other person whose posts have been more inconsistent, it will be your job to disprove my claim.

Crab said:
I mean, I don't literally link every single post because that's tedious as fuck. I assume that you've actually been following the game - if you've not, we have ourselves a problem. If you actually disagree on my reads, just say why. As it is, you've not actually refuted my suspiscion of Vivi or even Hagi (btw I didn't even suspect Hagi, just Rest seemed to be the target of the wagon).

Do you want me to rejustify each of my reads? Or are you just pussy-footing with technicalities instead of actually disagreeing with me on anything?

Yes, it is absolutely your job if you wanted your vote to sound legitimate then or later.

Makai · Aug 9, 2015

Crab said:
IT WAS NOT NECESSARY FOR MAKAI TO CLAIM. IT IS ALMOST NEVER NECESSARY FOR PRS TO CLAIM

Let's go through the situation in which you claim: there are 10 votes on you, you need 11 for the lynch, and the 11th person says "you claim now, or I lynch you". Then you claim. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 <----- READ THIS BIT CAREFULLY

Let's go through the situation in which you do not claim: there are 2 votes on you, you need 11 for the lynch, and 2nd person says "you give me suspects now, or I don't move my vote". Then you give suspects, like the game is supposed to work, and then those people move on, like the game is supposed to work. Gosh, difficult.

Like most people, I am constrained by real life. I was getting lynched for sure, but I needed to focus on my real job. I role claimed and went back to work. I think this was a good choice because it gave you guys a few hours to come up with a replacement. A lot of good discussion in that frenzy - much more than we would have gotten if I voted for somebody (Crab: "Your vote makes no sense for town. You should be voting for _______. VOTE: Makai")

Zippedpinhead · Aug 9, 2015

CornBurrito said:
He has said time and time again that source material means fucking nothing.

Yes I know that, but my knowledge of that character and what he does/did/is in DG2 was influencing me one kgtrep. I know source material is t supposed to mean much in this game, but when we have people pretending to be the main character of the first game, and that character showing up when two people that I read as town are the only people we can vote for. I read into it.

LaunchpadMcQ said:
I was considering posting this earlier, but I decided not to unless someone asked. No, it's not indicative of everything, it's just my favorite interjection gif.

Thank you launch, I suspected as much, but I wanted to hear it "straight from the bear's mouth".

Crab is still the safe vote, based on my assumption on if this role is only on one power role (that would most likely be hope aligned) as I can't think of a reason for despair to have this role and use it night 1, they can talk and convene about when to use roles like this and I don't think they would reach consensus to use this in one week. kgtrep is most likely town.

I'm gong to let cornburrito freak out and argue with crab more. while I don't think it will change my mind on my vote, It's interesting to read. I think crab is town too and kgtrep wasted his ability's kill on crab. Now I do think we can get some other information out of today... and that is why I am waiting

kgtrep · Aug 9, 2015

Zippedpinhead said:
Yes I know that, but my knowledge of that character and what he does/did/is in DG2 was influencing me one kgtrep. I know source material is t supposed to mean much in this game, but when we have people pretending to be the main character of the first game, and that character showing up when two people that I read as town are the only people we can vote for. I read into it.

Thank you launch, I suspected as much, but I wanted to hear it "straight from the bear's mouth".

Crab is still the safe vote, based on my assumption on if this role is only on one power role (that would most likely be hope aligned) as I can't think of a reason for despair to have this role and use it night 1, they can talk and convene about when to use roles like this and I don't think they would reach consensus to use this in one week. kgtrep is most likely town.

I'm gong to let cornburrito freak out and argue with crab more. while I don't think it will change my mind on my vote, It's interesting to read. I think crab is town too and kgtrep wasted his ability's kill on crab. Now I do think we can get some other information out of today... and that is why I am waiting

If source material matters to you (I'm not judging), I got the role of Byakuya Togami (I mentioned the family name in my opening statement). For copyright reasons, I guess, Launch gave me the name "Super High-School Level Affluent Progeny" instead.

CornBurrito · Aug 9, 2015

You know I'm starting to think that both of them are Hope and that Crab just did a fine job of making himself suspicious to multiple people.

I want to say kgtreps power is anti-town because the more I think about it, the more it is. But giving this power to Despair on top of their other advantages seems like way too much. I am more inclined to believe that we got a badforHope Hope PR because of the source material.

sandalphon · Aug 9, 2015

Dramatic opening to Day 2, I see.

My thoughts are still in a jumble at the moment but I still believe in Crab being Hope. I also think kgtrep is Hope or Neutral, but not Despair. Unfortunately, it seems that their playstyles clash and so we have this situation in our hands.

As for my role, I believe you guys have surmised more information by now. I have made the mistake of asking for clarification that may have affected Hope detrimentally in a public forum in D1 and I want to avoid to make further missteps. I will leave this situation as is but please remember that there are passive power roles. Remember also that I was only asking about the sequence of night-time powers in my original post (post no. 461) and in this post no.632, you can see that I was hoping that my error was actually salvageable:

goshujinsama said:
Yeah, I probably made a newbie mistake. My bad. But I've learned now not to open my mouth too easily. So all I want to say at this stage is that it may not be that big of a mistake. Hopefully.

That is all I am going to say about that at this point in time.

I understand that the arena of discussion has now been constricted to two sides. So to get this particular topic out of the way, here is my vote:

Vote: kgtrep

My reasons are to do with the possibility of his power recharging and due to my faith in Crab being a more valuable Hope player. With the possibility of his power recharging, I rather not have an encore of todays situation. It is a constraint upon towns ability to survey a larger pool to consider lynching from and a dangerous ability that may end up costing Hope wider analysis points due to the tunnel vision side effect created by this duel mechanism.

Moving on, I still would like to present my assessments of other players instead of focusing only on Crab vs kgtrep. I will refresh my reads on the players sometime during D2.

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