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Derrick01 · Jul 4, 2011

NemesisPrime said:
Errr... you can say what you want to Kinect is probably the least limited of them all. Accuracy wise ofc Kinect is worse, but I think it is pretty clear that casual motion games do not need pin-point accuracy anyway.

You kind of made my point for me. You bring up casual games which of course kinect can handle but that's it, and not even that accurately. Move, like the Wiimote, can at least be used on many more complex games than minigames. I'd love to see how you would control something like Killzone 3 with Kinect.

That's why I said it's the most limited.

test_account · Jul 4, 2011

DeaconKnowledge said:
I know these words, but this sentence makes no sense.

He says that when it comes to the accuracy between Kinect, Move and Wii, then Kinect is the worse. But this doesnt really matter to the more casual players because they dont really feel the need for pin-point accuracy motion controls.

Alx · Jul 4, 2011

NemesisPrime said:
Errr... you can say what you want to Kinect is probably the least limited of them all. Accuracy wise ofc Kinect is worse, but I think it is pretty clear that casual motion games do not need pin-point accuracy anyway.

Besides, the current Kinect limitations can rather easily be reduced with the expected specs increase of a new generation : higher resolution, wider field of view, faster protocols, increased dedicated power and advanced processing algorithms will increase precision and usability, reduce lag, and make it more robust to different settings/user positions.

Besides, it's not all about the games themselves. Many people believe in the "good morning Batman" menu interfaces, and it's now clear that technologies like kinect allow it (both on the gesture and voice recognition).

Finally, I didn't know where to mention it, but since it's quite on topic, here's another sign that many people consider gesture-compatible consoles as a viable market :
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...otion_Control_Tech_To_Chinas_iSec_Console.php

Elios83 · Jul 4, 2011

Rumor is clearly made-up bullshit but I think that PS4 will indeed feature a controller which integrates a touch pad (front-rear like Vita but without the screen?), classic buttons layout and motion control achieved through a 3D camera+motion sensors in the controller.
It's the thing that makes the most sense, it adapts to all the types of games, core/casual with elements of innovation.

Lince · Jul 4, 2011

NemesisPrime said:
Almost certainly there won't be a Cell in a real next gen PS4. It just isn't financially viable to keep on supporting Cell for Sony.

confirmed? it's taken a hard time for some devs such as Guerrilla or Naughty Dog to learn the particularities of the Cell CPU to start from scratch again, I mean the results are amazing given how 'weak' the PS3 GPU is : (

Lord Error · Jul 4, 2011

DeaconKnowledge said:
Who says they won't join the two? Perhaps a Wand style controller is just the thing that Kinect is missing.

Yeah, I hope for something like this anyway. Pointer aiming is the best thing about wiimote and move, ditching that (which would have to happen with kinect style body tracking + 'dumb' controller setup) would be bad for games.

DeaconKnowledge · Jul 4, 2011

Lince said:
confirmed? it's taken a hard time for some devs such as Guerrilla or Naughty Dog to learn the particularities of the Cell CPU to start from scratch again, I mean the results are amazing given how 'weak' the PS3 GPU is : (

Developers will adapt to whatever tools you give them. Keeping Cell just because devs are used to it is foolish.

StevieP · Jul 4, 2011

Lince said:
confirmed? it's taken a hard time for some devs such as Guerrilla or Naughty Dog to learn the particularities of the Cell CPU to start from scratch again, I mean the results are amazing given how 'weak' the PS3 GPU is : (

IBM is producing its last cell-based server in 6 months, and is "killing the dream", so-to-speak. Cell was and is pretty much a failure.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/28/ibm_kills_qs22_blade/

Yeah, I hope for something like this anyway. Pointer aiming is the best thing about wiimote and move, ditching that (which would have to happen with kinect style body tracking + 'dumb' controller setup) would be bad for games.

If it was up to "hardcore" gamers, we'd use dual-analog forever. Yuck. Screw Nintendo for regressing on that, thanks to stubborn gamers and developers. Motion gaming in some form is the next evolution to game controllers, however the tech needs to evolve. Stunting that with stubbornness will be akin to the N64 using this:

Elios83 · Jul 4, 2011

Lince said:
confirmed? it's taken a hard time for some devs such as Guerrilla or Naughty Dog to learn the particularities of the Cell CPU to start from scratch again, I mean the results are amazing given how 'weak' the PS3 GPU is : (

Its pretty much confirmed that a next gen Cell won't happen but that does not mean that its technology won't be integrated in the future POWER multicore CPUs made by IBM.

Lord Error said:
Yeah, I hope for something like this anyway. Pointer aiming is the best thing about wiimote and move, ditching that (which would have to happen with kinect style body tracking + 'dumb' controller setup) would be bad for games.

A pointer controller doesn't work with a lot of games which need a classic button layout.
Even Nintendo did not confirm Wii-like motion controls in their next gen console.
And Sony said that Move is not meant to be a controller for every game and that they can't run away from a classic controller.
Motion controls needs to be done in other ways if they want to integrate them as a standard. A 3D camera which works together with motion sensors in a classic controller seems the best way to go in that sense.

patsu · Jul 4, 2011

Elios83 said:
Its pretty much confirmed that a next gen Cell won't happen but that does not mean that its technology won't be integrated in the future POWER multicore CPUs made by IBM.

Yap, IBM said some Cell elements may make it into future products.

Graphics Horse · Jul 4, 2011

Yeah there are reasons to keep Cell but some kind of weird tribute to hardworking devs is not one of them. They won't be like Mrs Doyle after receiving a tea making machine for Christmas.

Dreams-Visions · Jul 4, 2011

I'm willing to volunteer to slap everyone who thought this could have been a legit story.

patsu · Jul 4, 2011

gofreak said:
Well, we're trucking along on the proposal this stuff would be in the box, standard.

Whether Sony makes motion-control standard or not, though, I think it will be an evolution of what they did with Move. That would be the most logical approach. And IMO that makes an evolution for the camera down 3D lane inevitable and obvious. In terms of required doo-hickeys, it would be no more than they needed to make Move work, but I'll agree that isn't necessarily ideally simple.

My main point though, again, is that I dunno why anyone would be surprised if Sony's next cam was 'Kinect like'. People shouldn't freak out that this would mean Sony's approach to interface would be Kinect-like however - i.e. pushing for controller free as a standard, even if it doesn't quite fit. It'd be a child of Move and that kind of philosophy, and that does call for a camera/sensor - and for PS4, you'll surely have a new camera/sensor that does more things than Eye does.

... 3D + HD ! We have heard a few rumblings about HD PSEye for more than a year now.

Also integration with touch pad devices/controllers my be possible. I am pretty sure that it will expand core gaming control schemes and also help make core games more accessible. Would love to see a touch implementation of Jedi first person light saber duel, LBP and Portal 2.

patsu · Jul 4, 2011

Graphics Horse said:
Yeah there are reasons to keep Cell but some kind of weird tribute to hardworking devs is not one of them. They won't be like Mrs Doyle after receiving a tea making machine for Christmas.

They made it easy for developers to use the same techniques for Vita and PS3, possibly 4 also. But that doesn't mean they will absolutely need to use Cell. There are other interesting Cell characteristics not explored in PS3 yet. They can do it in PS4.

JWong · Jul 4, 2011

The PS3 already does. It's called the PSeye.

SykoTech · Jul 4, 2011

Launch by next year and 20 million units? I don't think this even deserves to be called a rumor.

painful fart · Jul 4, 2011

kitch9 said:
Ubisoft clearly think Sonys userbase isn't full of rampant hand wafting 10 year olds......

It probably isn't

True, the PS3 still hasn´t hit $199 while its competition hit that price in 2009 or before.

People should let that sink in for a second, before they jump on the PS4 in 2012 bandwaggon.

SniperViper · Jul 4, 2011

PS4 is far far away...

2012 will belong to Vita
PS3 is still $299

I think we will hear about PS4 near E3 2013 and the system itself will be released by Fall 2014

No way will Sony launch two systems in 1 year. And eye toy and move never succeeded on PS2 or PS3....pretty obvious PS fans don't care about the casual control bull shit and neither do most Sony first party studios (Naughty Dog shunning Move = awesome)

Averon · Jul 4, 2011

painful fart said:
True, the PS3 still hasn´t hit $199 while its competition hit that price in 2009 or before.

People should let that sink in for a second, before they jump on the PS4 in 2012 bandwaggon.

Exactly. Why would Sony have the shadow of the PS4 hanging over the PS3 in 2012? Especially if Sony finally gets the PS3 to $199.

GuiltySpank · Jul 4, 2011

Lince said:
confirmed? it's taken a hard time for some devs such as Guerrilla or Naughty Dog to learn the particularities of the Cell CPU to start from scratch again, I mean the results are amazing given how 'weak' the PS3 GPU is : (

Cell has about as much chance of showing up in the PS4 as the Emotion Engine 2. We hear the same shit about how great the Emotion Engine was and how it would be used in everything including the next Playstation.

Neither Sony nor developers will have the stomach or the resources to get everyone up to speed on some convoluted alien architecture.

PS4 will have whatever relatively cheap and capable CPU is available at the time. Cell is pretty much dead.

Luckyman · Jul 4, 2011

GuiltySpank said:
Cell has about as much chance of showing up in the PS4 as the Emotion Engine 2. We hear the same shit about how great the Emotion Engine was and how it would be used in everything including the next Playstation.

Neither Sony nor developers will have the stomach or the resources to get everyone up to speed on some convoluted alien architecture.

PS4 will have whatever relatively cheap and capable CPU is available at the time. Cell is pretty much dead.

No. Cell is already up to speed. Sony is not insane to ditch it now when they can easily up the power for needed levels.

StevieP · Jul 4, 2011

Luckyman said:
No. Cell is already up to speed. Sony is not insane to ditch it now when they can easily up the power for needed levels.

CELL. IS. DEAD.

Sony would be insane to *use* it. It would cost them far more to continue to FAB it than it would to get a far superior CPU from IBM or AMD or even ARM with current and more usable architecture for a much lower cost.

NemesisPrime · Jul 4, 2011

Luckyman said:
No. Cell is already up to speed. Sony is not insane to ditch it now when they can easily up the power for needed levels.

Cell technically doesn't exist any more. There is no new roadmap, there are no new designs. RIP. Sony would be crazy to use Cell. It will be much cheaper to go with a newer design that is still supported and mass produced.

H_Prestige · Jul 4, 2011

What's the difference between "beefed up CELL" and "modern IBM CPU"?

I have no idea what the actual CPU will be, but based on Vita, I would bet PS4 will natively support PS3 software and be very easy to develop for. And it will be powerful.

Luckyman · Jul 4, 2011

StevieP said:
CELL. IS. DEAD.

Sony would be insane to *use* it. It would cost them far more to continue to FAB it than it would to get a far superior CPU from IBM or AMD with current and more usable architecture for a much lower cost.

Sorry but that dosent mean anything. Sony has all the knowledge to make what they want. If they stay on power pc expect to find SPEs there regardless what name of the Chip is..

gofreak · Jul 4, 2011

StevieP said:
Sony would be insane to *use* it. It would cost them far more to continue to FAB it than it would to get a far superior CPU from IBM or AMD or even ARM with current and more usable architecture for a much lower cost.

Whether other companies are using Cell or not in products is kind of immaterial to the chances of PS4 using it, IMO.

I also don't know if other chips, all else being equal, would be any cheaper to fab if they were of architectures used by other companies - Sony's still likely to use a chip that is customised to some degree at volumes that needs its own dedicated lines so I don't know if there's any manufacturing advantage there. It's not like they could soak up excess capacity from other companies just like that - their chips are never likely to be quite that off-the-shelf even if they are of the same architecture as others'.

All that said, I've no idea if Sony will use Cell or not in PS4 but I don't know if I'm convinced by those arguments. I think it's a less important question, perhaps, than what GPU they put in there, assuming a lean towards a much higher ratio of GPU power in next-gen systems.

Frankfurt · Jul 4, 2011

Krev said:
Kinect is not ready to be the basis of a system's push, as Microsoft will find out this Christmas.

Kinect Star Wars.
Kinect Disneyland.

-Pyromaniac- · Jul 4, 2011

I simply can't see how this system doesn't launch until 2013 at the earliest. They announce it at E3 and TGS of 2011 and then it releases midway through 2013. I highly doubt they announce it at E3 2012 which is already 6 months into the year, and then have 20 million consoles ready for a launch later in the year (which would have to be the case so a marketing campaign can get off the ground).

This just makes no sense.

Auto_aim1 · Jul 4, 2011

GuiltySpank said:
Cell has about as much chance of showing up in the PS4 as the Emotion Engine 2. We hear the same shit about how great the Emotion Engine was and how it would be used in everything including the next Playstation.

Neither Sony nor developers will have the stomach or the resources to get everyone up to speed on some convoluted alien architecture.

PS4 will have whatever relatively cheap and capable CPU is available at the time. Cell is pretty much dead.

The reason it's hard to develop for the PS3 is due to a slightly weak RSX and the split-memory architecture. Sony just bought back the Cell factory from Toshiba last year. I think Sony will make a balanced system next time, but the Cell will stay.

Neuromancer · Jul 4, 2011

I would die laughing if this somehow turned out to be true. Kevin Butler pew-pew-pew!

Vamphuntr · Jul 4, 2011

I really don't believe the source. Launching in the same year as the Vita? I don't see how they would be able to make people by both in the same year. 20 M units is quite a huge number too.

Personally I also really don't want kinect control.

infinityBCRT · Jul 4, 2011

JoeTheBlow said:
Intel are switching their major fab plants to Tri-gate tech, which is a massive shift in processor efficiency.
Sony could never, ever compete in price or tech themselves. CELL is utterly dead.

Intel's roadmap, post Ivy-bridge next year, is some hot shit, and is still being defined.
Sony and MS will wait to see what they can offer once the Tri-gate fabs come online and they start to make graphic processors out of those things.

From what I understand, Intel is very protective of their tech and doesn't like third parties modifying/manufacturing their own versions of Intel CPUs which is why MS switched to IBM for the 360. It allowed MS to greatly reduce cost over the years by continually making the innards of the 360 cheaper.

In fact, all 3 console manufacturers are currently using IBM tech. Intel is going to have to loosen their restrictions if they want their CPUs in consoles. I could see next-gen systems going with ARM, but for backwards compatibility sake I wouldn't be surprised if everyone sticks with IBM (and in fact, we know Nintendo is). Besides, the bigger bottlenecks are in Memory, GPU, and Disk Speed so its not a big deal if the next Xbox and PlayStation's CPUs aren't bleeding edge.

Lord Error · Jul 4, 2011

StevieP said:
IBM is producing its last cell-based server in 6 months, and is "killing the dream", so-to-speak. Cell was and is pretty much a failure.

In terms of backwards compatibility and ease of updating the existing codebase for developers, it wouldn't have to be Cell 2.0. It could be a variant of their multicore Power # processors.

StevieP · Jul 4, 2011

Lord Error said:
In terms of backwards compatibility and ease of updating the existing codebase for developers, it wouldn't have to be Cell 2.0. It could be a variant of their multicore Power # processors.

A multicore PowerPC is not Cell, though they share common elements.

Cell is basically 1 single-core stripped-down (and in-order) Power5 "Element" with 7 "dumb cores" SPEs attached to it, as we all know by now. If Sony were to do IBM again, it would simply be (a far superior) 2-4 core PowerPC. It would produce better results, it would be cheaper, and far more powerful in most ways that actually matter. Not to mention developers would thank them. There are many on this very board that would attest to it. Just because Guerilla/ND/etc have gotten "used" to it, doesn't mean they wouldn't produce better results on more conventional hardware.

The Vita is a great many steps in the right direction from this perspective.

jeff_rigby · Jul 4, 2011

painful fart said:
True, the PS3 still hasn´t hit $199 while its competition hit that price in 2009 or before.

People should let that sink in for a second, before they jump on the PS4 in 2012 bandwaggon.

Not mentioned yet are possible reasons for a hardware refresh.

1) DRM, the current PS3 is broken, a new Key and system is now more likely.

2) Power efficiency, third world countries are the next big market and cost of electricity is expensive. That can be partially fixed with a new smaller die size.

3) As Patsu said, a higher res PS Eye is needed/rumored but the current USB port couldn't handle that. That has new Set top boxes by others having a much better picture than Sony products. In my opinion a big plus for a new system.

4) Voice and motion detection using pattern masking recognition is very memory intensive, the Kinect method and "move" are shortcuts to use fewer resources. More memory is needed.

5) a faster and larger blu-ray drive is needed to play 4k media. If there is no news of a breakthrough here I suspect it proves this rumor false.

6) 3-D is just barely possible on the PS3 for AAA games and a slightly more powerful chipset needed. 1080P 3-D and higher framerates for 2-D needed.

I doubt this rumor unless newer hardware is faster, uses less power, offers more features and is cheaper.

That the article seems to imply the camera is part of the console, that is not practical so that part must be a misunderstanding. A camera included as part of the system but as a separate accessory possible.

I'll consider this a weak rumor until we hear of a cheap faster larger (200gig+) blu-ray drive

Edit: And it starts. IF this new rumored PS4 does not have 4K media playing and larger faster blu-ray drive, it's a PS3.5 not PS4. Read back through the discussion on this board. The PS3 can display 4K media now but the drive is not fast enough or large enough.

The quote that the PS4 would be designed for non-technical mindsets <grin> read the quote, this is the only way to state it without being sexist, means voice/body recognition to me.

The next generation Power PC processor are rumored to be heterogeneous, an advanced Power PC and next generation Cell SPU combination, multiples of each. I would guess backwardly compatible or with a little effort.

StevieP · Jul 4, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
Not mentioned yet are possible reasons for a hardware refresh.

5) a faster and larger blu-ray drive is needed to play 4k media. If there is no news of a breakthrough here I suspect it proves this rumor false.

I'll consider this a weak rumor until we hear of a cheap faster larger (200gig+) blu-ray drive

4K media? 200gig blu ray drives? Are you from the year 2030?

Edit: And it starts. IF this new rumored PS4 does not have 4K media playing and larger faster blu-ray drive, it's a PS3.5 not PS4.

Aside from the "faster" blu-ray drive (which it will have for certain) you'd better look forward to your PS3.5.

patsu · Jul 4, 2011

StevieP said:
A multicore PowerPC is not Cell, though they share common elements.

Cell is basically 1 single-core stripped-down (and in-order) Power5 "Element" with 7 "dumb cores" SPEs attached to it, as we all know by now. If Sony were to do IBM again, it would simply be (a far superior) 2-4 core PowerPC. It would produce better results, it would be cheaper, and far more powerful in most ways that actually matter. Not to mention developers would thank them. There are many on this very board that would attest to it. Just because Guerilla/ND/etc have gotten "used" to it, doesn't mean they wouldn't produce better results on more conventional hardware.

The Vita is a great many steps in the right direction from this perspective.

The Vita architecture also has some Cell design elements. The Media Engine can share memory with the GPU.

If they were to use SPU today, it will have it's own advantages against regular CPUs. It's the economic challenges that cast doubt on it.

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