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Smash Bros Brawl Dojo Official Update Thread: Goodbye, Cherry-don
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Chris Michael
Banned
Thoren said:
Speaking of Fox/Falco...
Does anyone else think that Wolf or Krystal appearing in the game is basically a given?
LegendofJoe
Member
Thoren said:
Balance is the primary design goal of the team doing Brawl. Sakurai said it straight up that he and the team were going to heavily focus on making sure all the characters and levels are as balanced as they can possibly make them, so you're in good hands.
Krystal with her Adventures moveset would make sense and be a logical fresh addition for the StarFox franchise. As for Wolf, I'd rather see him in as an alternate costume for Fox.Chris Michael said:
I don't recall Sakurai ever promising to balance Melee. Nor, for that matter, do I recall him promising to focus on balance for Brawl. Could we get a reference for that?Wii said:
However, I do believe that this time things will, on the whole, be more balanced due to the fact that Sakurai is getting all the development time he needs as opposed to how rushed he was for Melee.
Some characters are not returning, this much is known. As far as which characters are likely candidates to be removed...well, Falco pretty much tops the list. He's a "clone", and furthermore a "clone" that could easily be replaced by more diverse members of the franchise. Also, it'd be pretty hard to diversify Falco's moveset.Shinobix said:
That said, there is no real evidence that he's gone, it just seems logical.
LegendofJoe
Member
Zeed said:
I really don't feel like looking it up, but I read it in an interview that was conducted with him. Might have been at Nintendo World, but I'm really not sure. I didn't paraphrase it and basically make up what I wanted to read if that's what you're thinking, you can take my word on that.
TSA said:
I hate it when you're right. I'm going to haunt you now.
Zeed said:
I don't recall anything about Melee, but Sakurai did say he wanted to balance Brawl more. He also said he wanted to focus more on air combat, and that they were changing the speed of the game, though I don't remember if he said they were planning to slow it down or speed it up.
The longer development time will definitely be good for everybody, though.
Zeed said:
Clones are definitely at the top of the list to get cut. Falco is one of the clones that is least likely to get cut (reason: popularity), only being topped by Ganondorf.
Anyway, we have no idea how many characters will be cut, if any. Going from SSB to SSBM no one was removed.
This is utterly false, you have no idea what you're talking about.RagnarokX said:
I'm really sick of the misuse of the word "clones." The only characters who were even close to being clones are mario and doctor mario. Their differences are very small, though still enough to make playing them different experiences. Falco and fox are nowhere near being clones in the sense that they're redundant or that you could replace one with a costume change. They're completely different.
I've met people who thought mario, doc, and luigi were all identical. You're appearing equally ignorant right now.
It's not that hard to guess the cuts. Falco will either be gone or substantially changed. Roy/Marth will both be cut, to be replaced by Ike. Pichu's replaced by some other pokemon. Dr. Mario will be cut, to be replaced by Paper Mario if anything. Sheikh's out. Young Link replaced by WW Link.
Basically, they'll update the roster to reflect the Nintendo franchises as they stand today. And even if someone's favorite character gets cut/nerfed, I'm sure they'll find someone else to play. Not the end of the world.
Basically, they'll update the roster to reflect the Nintendo franchises as they stand today. And even if someone's favorite character gets cut/nerfed, I'm sure they'll find someone else to play. Not the end of the world.
Kabuki Waq
Member
papercut said:
marth getting cut will piss off a lot of cheap asses.
Kabuki Waq
Member
Dr.Hadji said:
but then how will ppl react when Fox gets nerfed?
WastingPenguins
Member
usea said:
Too true. Hell, I know people who think that Ganon and Falcon play exactly the same, and those characters play as differently as any two in the game.
Roy and Pichu are definitely the worst clones. They have almost no merits over their counterparts. Though honestly... Roy is kind of shitty but infinitely more balanced than "float in the air for ten minutes smacking you with f-airs" Marth.
Kabuki Waq said:
I don't think Sakurai cares too much about people's reactions. People will bitch and moan no matter what, but you have to make progress somewhere or we'll be stuck with the same characters over and over, playing the same game. I hope they tone down Fox and and bring up some of the weaker characters--it'll at least make things more interesting, both with casual and tourney play.
Agreed. Though I think melee was balanced pretty well, better than the average fighting game.Dr.Hadji said:
If melee wasn't balanced for high level / long-term play, people wouldn't be playing it nearly as much still today as they do. And therefore wouldn't want to buy brawl as much as they do. If melee was broken or balanced poorly, even the casual players would stop playing it sooner than they would otherwise. Balance affects players of every type.
I'd also wager that high level play is definitely considered and provided for during development. I don't think it's a fluke that the game turned out as well and lasted as long as it has.
They have mostly the same animations. Guess what? The game isn't watched, it's played. Their moves look the same, but the characters are not the same. They are not redundant, you cannot replace one with a costume change. It's comments like that which I am calling ignorant, and I think I was pretty clear about it.papercut said:
Yes, I object to the word clone because it's a poor choice of a word to mean "characters with similar animations." The word clone means or implies identical, which is not the case. Pointing out the extreme ignorance of other people isn't something I should "get over."
JohnTinker
Limbaugh Parrot
I don't want Krystal in the game just to keep the Furries at bay.
Kabuki Waq
Member
usea said:
they are similar to the point of being redundant.
usea said:
Nobody uses clone to mean identical in Smash Bros (nobody who's really played the game, anyway). We know they're different as far as how they're played. But don't you think that them having the same moveset, which is totally different from that of every other character in the game, might warrant the description?
Holy Order Sol
Member
GaimeGuy said:
Seriously.
This is like saying Ryu and Ken are still the same.
No, they're not, not even close. This is factual stuff, not an opinion.Kabuki Waq said:
Yes, people do use it to mean identical. If you read what I typed and quoted in my last 3 posts you would see several examples.papercut said:
No, I don't think the fact that their animations are far more similar to eachother as a whole than other characters warrants a description of identical. I think it's a poor word choice, and it's confusing those who think they really are identical, as you can see just a few posts up.
Yep. In fact, ryu and ken are even more similar than every "clone" in ssbm except doc and mario who share about the same differences as ryu and ken depending on the game.Holy Order Sol said:
Mewtwo is a Samus clone. His B attack is a charge beam like Samus' and his tilts are all like black fire instead of red fire! omg!
I hate idiots with their dumb "clone" thoughts. Most of them don't even play the characters they refer to as clones -_-; Saying Falco and Fox of all characters are redundant is just... ugh.
I hate idiots with their dumb "clone" thoughts. Most of them don't even play the characters they refer to as clones -_-; Saying Falco and Fox of all characters are redundant is just... ugh.
usea said:
There are so many things wrong with each of these statements. Clone doesn't mean identical. That some people take it that way is their fault, but that's not what it means. I assure you, clone is the appropriate word for what Fox & Falco are. Their movesets, their animations, are all identical. The differences come in the speed and power of the fighters, and that is the reason they play differently.
Ryu and Ken were much more identical than Fox & Falco in the original SF2, but they have progressed much farther apart in the later games. They no longer share the same animations for even 50% of their attacks. It's closer to the change of Mario & Luigi from SSB to SSBM.
Fox and Falco are clones, but they are not identical. This isn't even worth discussing, as it has no bearing on whether or not Falco will be removed. Sakurai said not every character would make it back, he said nothing specifically about clones.
Edit: Falco's reach is also different, but again, same animations.
Firestorm said:
You can't be serious?
Well anyway, it doesn't matter to me if Falco is cut, changed, or if he remains the same. I don't think clones are evil or pointless or whatever, although it would be nice if instead of repeating movesets, the designers at least spend time on new animations.
Some of you are going to have a serious meltdown if Falco does get cut/changed...which would be really amusing to watch
WastingPenguins
Member
justchris said:
Once again you prove you don't know what you're talking about.
papercut said:You can't be serious?
Well anyway, it doesn't matter to me if Falco is cut, changed, or if he remains the same. I don't think clones are evil or pointless or whatever, although it would be nice if instead of repeating movesets, the designers at least spend time on new animations.
Some of you are going to have a serious meltdown if Falco does get cut/changed...which would be really amusing to watch
The fact that you think I'm serious should be sufficient proof that people's Fox/Falco arguments suck. If you want to call them clones because the animations are similar, that's fine. But like usea said, they play so damn differently it doesn't matter. Clones, in my opinion, are good for the game. They give us new characters to play with the least amount of time. Do I want every character to be a clone? No. But I sure hope there are a good amount.
After all, if you're playing Fox and Falco the same way, or Link and Young Link, or any of the others, you're doing something wrong.
Kabuki Waq
Member
Firestorm said:
I dont really play with Falco or fox but damn i hate playing against them.
Firestorm said:
Yea I know they play differently. I'm only talking about movesets/animations, which is what MOST people are talking about when calling them clones. I don't care for the people who know absolutely nothing about the game and can't see past the identical moveset.
Either way, I'd rather have different animations. At least then they'll feel more like their own characters rather than two different takes on the same moveset.
WastingPenguins said:
papercut said:
Pretty much. That was a simplification, sure, but every single difference in Fox & Falco can be traced back to the differences in speed, strength & reach. When you adjust one of those, things like air time, animation frames, hit boxes & hit reactions all have to be adjusted to compensate.
justchris said:
Not really. It's how the moves behave. Three very, very key things about Falco that changes his entire playstyle:
d-air spikes down
lasers stun
shine sends opponent up
There you have the basis for two of Falco's main combos. The short-hop laser and the pillar (d-air, l-cancel, shine or d-tilt, jump, repeat).
Watch a bit of this combo video to see what I'm talking about:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nOKyMf_sa7U
Fox's key difference is that unlike Falco's shine, his shine sends the opponent at a 45 degree angle and at a set distance.
See this combo video for the crazy shit Fox can do:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=E0anyq2n0WM
Kabuki Waq said:
Me neither, but I hate Falco more. At least against Fox I get a chance to move =(
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