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The Tragedy of Castlevania Judgement. (and other Arena Fighters)

A

Arc Christelle

Member
castlevania_judgement_wallpaper_by_cepillo16-d4kr751.jpg


Let's take a look at one of the most polarizing entries in the Castlevania franchise, Castlevania Judgement.

Around this time IGA was working on concepts on how to use the Wiimote to create an action Castlevania title for the Wii. The goal was to use the Wiimote in a similar fashion as a whip. This game was the result. A 1v1 fighting game. When it came to the gameplay and control input method, the Wii mote was definitely ass, with the GC controller becoming the superior input. However, despite that it created a divide and wasn't exactly welcomed.

  • It was a fighting game.
  • Takeshi Obata (Death Note, Bakuman) was in charge of the art direction, not Ayami Kojima
  • It was on the Wii (which might not be the case, but that shit still had to take on Tatsunoko vs Capcom Ultimate All Stars around the time.)

I understand that most people hated the art direction, what I wanted to state was underneath that, was a pretty good Arena fighting game. The tragedy of this is that we'll never get to see a sequel to it.

It was an arena fighting game that was accessible, but at the same time had substantial depth. Especially for those people who are creative when it comes to fighting games, each character had a pretty unique tool set to utilize.

Combo Video A
Combo Video B

Other Arena fighting games that have had such a profound depth (and some that are even better) are
  • Anarchy Reigns
  • Gundam VS Trilogy
  • Smash Bros

Honorable mentions
  • Powerstone
  • Custom Robo
  • Naruto:Clash of Ninja (surprisingly good game series)
  • Gunslinger Stratos
  • Gotcha Force
  • Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm

Loved and Forgotten
  • Psychic Force/2 (2012)
  • Ehrgeiz
  • Destrega
  • Trap Gunner
  • Virtual-On
The arena fighter is one of my favorite genres of fighting games, mostly because it's still in this "Experimental" phase, where so many good and interesting concepts have appeared, yet despite that, it's the least appreciate, or even acknowledged.

It's a genre that is very accessible to scr- ahem I mean people, that may not be particularly skilled at clockwise command inputs. As well as 1V1 3D Fighting games like VF/DOA/TK.

It's a genre that might have the greatest future yet the least recognized.

Castlevania Judgement just happened to be one of those games as well, so it really drives me to ask,

  • How did you feel about Castlevania Judgement as a whole, as well as arena fighters as a genre?
  • Would you be down for CVJ2 and what would you like changed or improved?
  • What are some of your favorite arena fighters?

(Also, dual eye-patch Trevor)
OP: Now Capcom Hate Free. =)

To add on to the tragedy:
Man God said:
Castlevania: Judgement had shockingly good netcode. If both people had a good connection you wouldn't get any really noticeable frame drops.
Click to expand...
 
kunonabi

kunonabi

Member
I was a huge fan of Judgment and played in the surprisingly active online scene.

The combat system really is very good and the character variety in terms of playstyles. It was a tad unbalanced but nothing that couldn't be overcome(Hell, I played Dracula exclusively despite some of his absolutely horrific match-ups)

I would have liked a little more vertically and platforming in the stages though.

It's a shame the character designs turned so many people off. I was ok with most of them outside of Eric, Death, and Simon.

The music was fantastic and I loved the hilarious item descriptions.

It really was one of the best arena fighters when it came out.
 
C

chicagocubsfan

Member
Arc Christelle said:
castlevania_judgement_wallpaper_by_cepillo16-d4kr751.jpg


Let's take a look at one of the most polarizing entries in the Castlevania franchise, Castlevania Judgement.

Around this time IGA was working on concepts on how to use the Wiimote to create an action Castlevania title for the Wii. The goal was to use the Wiimote in a similar fashion as a whip. This game was the result. A 1v1 fighting game. When it came to the gameplay and control input method, the Wii mote was definitely ass, with the GC controller becoming the superior input. However, despite that it created a divide and wasn't exactly welcomed.

  • It was a fighting game.
  • Takeshi Obata (Death Note, Bakuman) was in charge of the art direction, not Ayami Kojima
  • It was on the Wii (which might not be the case, but that shit still had to take on Tatsunoko vs Capcom Ultimate All Stars around the time when people just dickrode Capcom fighters again especially with Street Fighter IV on the horizon, which "revitalized the genre" lol.)

I understand that most people hated the art direction, what I wanted to state was underneath that, was a pretty good Arena fighting game. The tragedy of this is that we'll never get to see a sequel to it.

It was an arena fighting game that was accessible, but at the same time had substantial depth. Especially for those people who are creative when it comes to fighting games, each character had a pretty unique tool set to utilize.

Combo Video A
Combo Video B

Other Arena fighting games that have had such a profound depth (and some that are even better) are
  • Anarchy Reigns
  • Gundam VS Trilogy
  • Smash Bros

Honorable mentions
  • Powerstone
  • Custom Robo
  • Trap Gunner
  • Virtual-On (even though I'm not a fan)

The arena fighter is one of my favorite genres of fighting games, mostly because it's still in this "Experimental" phase, where so many good and interesting concepts have appeared, yet despite that, it's the least appreciate, or even acknowledged.

It's a genre that is very accessible to scr- ahem I mean people, that may not be particularly skilled at clockwise command inputs. As well as 1V1 3D Fighting games like VF/DOA/TK.

It's a genre that might have the greatest future yet the least recognized.

Castlevania Judgement just happened to be one of those games as well, so it really drives me to ask,

  • How did you feel about Castlevania Judgement as a whole, as well as arena fighters as a genre?
  • Would you be down for CVJ2 and what would you like changed or improved?
  • What are some of your favorite arena fighters?

(Also, dual eye-patch Trevor)
Click to expand...

No mention of the Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm series? Probably has sold more than all of those games combined besides Smash Bros.
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
Speaking of character matchups.... oh my god Maria.... ugh I hated her. "HIPPO!!!"

chicagocubsfan said:
No mention of the Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm series? Probably has sold more than all of those games combined besides Smash Bros.
Click to expand...

Hell no and that's the sad part. I know that game is popular, but as a fighting game... it lacks so much. I would never list it.
 
T

The Bankslammer

Member
I've always been surprised that arena fighters aren't a more prominent genre. I mean, games like Smash and Power Stone are insanely fun and have almost no barrier of entry. I would've thought that with the fighting game resurgence in full swing, their more accessible cousins would be on the rise as well.

That being said, despite loving stuff like Power Stone and being a big Castlevania fan, I missed out on Judgement. I guess I was one of those people who was sorta turned off by the character designs at first, but has become more curious as I've heard positive impressions about it. Still worth picking up? How does it compare to other games in the genre?
 
8

88random

Member
The only thing I remember is that this game had an awesome OST. Best versions of Vampyre Killer and Bloody Tears were in this game.
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
The Bankslammer said:
I've always been surprised that arena fighters aren't a more prominent genre. I mean, games like Smash and Power Stone are insanely fun and have almost no barrier of entry. I would've thought that with the fighting game resurgence in full swing, their more accessible cousins would be on the rise as well.

That being said, despite loving stuff like Power Stone and being a big Castlevania fan, I missed out on Judgement. I guess I was one of those people who was sorta turned off by the character designs at first, but has become more curious as I've heard positive impressions about it. Still worth picking up? How does it compare to other games in the genre?
Click to expand...

It's a good arena fighter, almost as good as Gundam VS and Anarchy, if not just as good.

The combination of using combo attacks with weapons, jump, and item cancels lead into a pretty heavy experience. Check out the combo videos to get a good estimate.

The camera is sorta similar to Naruto Ninja Storm. It also has a pretty decent tutorial system and customization (if you're willing to drag through the Castle Mode).

It's definitely worth giving a try.

Riposte said:
Super Smash Bros doesn't really have much in common with Anarchy Reigns...
Click to expand...

No, I was just calling it an Arena Fighter. But by default I always saw Smash Bros. as a legitimate fighting game.
 
kunonabi

kunonabi

Member
The Bankslammer said:
I've always been surprised that arena fighters aren't a more prominent genre. I mean, games like Smash and Power Stone are insanely fun and have almost no barrier of entry. I would've thought that with the fighting game resurgence in full swing, their more accessible cousins would be on the rise as well.

That being said, despite loving stuff like Power Stone and being a big Castlevania fan, I missed out on Judgement. I guess I was one of those people who was sorta turned off by the character designs at first, but has become more curious as I've heard positive impressions about it. Still worth picking up? How does it compare to other games in the genre?
Click to expand...

It's pretty close to the top if you ask me. The online scene is dead so you may not get as much out of it. It's pretty skill based so don't except to level the playing field through items or hazards when playing multiplayer.
 
S

Sgblues

Member
Was alright but could have been WAY better, yeah the artwork did scare off a lot of people(diehard Castlevania fans and other people too)

Yeah my favorites are Smash Melee and Power Stone, I got Anarchy Reigns but never really played it much.
 
T

The Bankslammer

Member
Arc Christelle said:
It's a good arena fighter, almost as good as Gundam VS and Anarchy, if not just as good.

The combination of using combo attacks with weapons, jump, and item cancels lead into a pretty heavy experience. Check out the combo videos to get a good estimate.

The camera is sorta similar to Naruto Ninja Storm. It also has a pretty decent tutorial system and customization (if you're willing to drag through the Castle Mode).

It's definitely worth giving a try.
Click to expand...

kunonabi said:
It's pretty close to the top if you ask me. The online scene is dead so you may not get as much out of it. It's pretty skill based so don't except to level the playing field through items or hazards when playing multiplayer.
Click to expand...

Rad, thanks! $13 on Amazon so I think I'll pick it up.

now i think i'm gonna go listen to the soundtrack because it's godtier
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
ElFly said:
OP's personal vendetta against capcom fighting games makes no favors to this thread.
Click to expand...

I don't hate all Capcom fighters. Just post Tatsunoko (which I enjoyed) fighters. I am a big advocate of 3rd Strike, SFA3, VS2, CVS2, and all the older joints before Capcom started dumbing them down, beginning with SFIV.
 
F

Foffy

Banned
I find it funny that IGA didn't want to make a traditional Castlevania game with motion controls, because waggling would get tiring after a short period of time.

So he made a fighting game with motion controls, and waggling gets tiring after a short period of time.
 
V

VariantX

Member
The camera in Castlevania Judgement seems to be more of an enemy than the guy you're actually fighting. I was watching Max and Matt play through this and the camera would just swing wildly all over the place, or go third person behind one of the characters, completely concealing what they're doing if they don't make an exaggerated animation (Dracula for example). The camera also makes it a chore to judge the speed and position of attacks and it really should have just stayed a decent distance away from the characters and only show the profiles of the characters and not their backs.
 
J

Jac_Solar

Member
Anarchy Reigns

I only played for a couple of levels, and only with the first character, but the gameplay and mechanics seemed to be extremely limited; few combos, few moves, very little diversity. Did that improve further out in the game, and if so, how?
 
kunonabi

kunonabi

Member
Arc Christelle said:
I don't hate all Capcom fighters. Just post Tatsunoko (which I enjoyed) fighters. I am a big advocate of 3rd Strike, SFA3, VS2, CVS2, and all the older joints before Capcom started dumbing them down, beginning with SFIV.
Click to expand...

Please tell me that's typo as Savior 2 was awful.
 
S

Seik

Banned
Is that my post from the Bad attempts at Attractive Character Design thread that got this outta you OP? :p

On topic: While it was a sub-par fighter for most, I enjoyed it, in fact, I did 100% it. I loved the fact that this was a Castlevania fighter, plus the thing runs and looks gorgeous on Dolphin.

The soundtrack is beaaaaaaaaaaast!!!
 
E

Esura

Banned
Would've been a great OP but you omitted Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 3 from this list, which is top dog in the arena fighter genre.
 
J

jooey

The Motorcycle That Wouldn't Slow Down
Arc Christelle said:
I don't hate all Capcom fighters. Just post Tatsunoko (which I enjoyed) fighters. I am a big advocate of 3rd Strike, SFA3, VS2, CVS2, and all the older joints before Capcom started dumbing them down, beginning with SFIV.
Click to expand...
Hey cool. I thought you were going to talk about Castlevania Judgment.
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
VariantX said:
The camera in Castlevania Judgement seems to be more of an enemy than the guy you're actually fighting. I was watching Max and Matt play through this and the camera would just swing wildly all over the place, or go third person behind one of the characters, completely concealing what they're doing if they don't make and exaggerated animation (Dracula for example). The camera also makes it a chore to judge the speed and position of attacks and it really should have just stayed a decent distance away from the characters and only show the profiles of the characters and not their backs.
Click to expand...

This is a good legitimate criticism. The reason for the camera being that way is the game's attempt at making it cinematic/dramatic. Basically you adapt to it, and use context clues like in Ninja Storm 1 with that stage with the trees, I used to take advantage of the camera so I can do setups hidden behind the trees.

But I understand where you coming from.

Jac_Solar said:
Anarchy Reigns

I only played for a couple of levels, and only with the first character, but the gameplay and mechanics seemed to be extremely limited; few combos, few moves, very little diversity. Did that improve further out in the game, and if so, how?
Click to expand...

Most people who experimented with Anarchy created loops for almost every character. It really takes effort to make that game shine, like most fighters, if you go in wit X,Y,X,Y. You're not gonna get much done. Try playing online.

I can also get you show you some good videos that demonstrate it if you like.

Leo Combos
Mathilda Combos

Also omegaevolution (who I think is on this forum, has plenty of good Anarchy vids and matches)
 
D

Doctor Ninja

Sphincter Speaker
But I love Takeshi Obata :(

Sure a lot of you might prefer Kojima's art and that's up to your personal taste of course but Obata is great too ! (even of the some of the fan-severicey elements were slightly overdone)
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
Seik said:
Is that my post from the Bad attempts at Attractive Character Design thread that got this outta you OP? :p
Click to expand...
LMAO I remember the post but nah, I don't mind the hate towards the art direction, I know it's a different direction and I can't fault people for being off put by it. I've been there before.

It was actually because Esura called that shit an "ass game" while praising Ninja Storm. I really had to bring up some discussion lol.

Also Ayami Kojima is my favorite artist. One who gave me a lot of inspiration with her self taught style. But I also enjoy Obata's design.

Esura said:
Would've been a great OP but you omitted Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 3 from this list, which is top dog in the arena fighter genre.
Click to expand...
lol Feel free to debate. I think that whole damn series rides on Naruto's name alone. Notice that you don't see anyone talking about .Hack/Versus

jooey said:
Hey cool. I thought you were going to talk about Castlevania Judgment.
Click to expand...
I did, I was responding to someone. But I also wanted to talk about Arena Fighters as a whole so I nailed two birds with one stone.

kunonabi said:
Please tell me that's typo as Savior 2 was awful.
Click to expand...
Nah, I got my reasons for sitting back and enjoying that game. Both entries. But I never got to play it competitively.
 
Y

Yort

Member
I bought this for $10; it's not nearly as bad as it's often made out to be. The soundtrack kicks ass, but I agree that the character design is pretty unattractive. I also question the wisdom of making a fighter with a series that's been entirely platformers and Metroid style games and that wasn't particularly popular at the time.
 
notworksafe

notworksafe

Member
Arc Christelle said:
It was on the Wii (which might not be the case, but that shit still had to take on Tatsunoko vs Capcom Ultimate All Stars around the time when people just dickrode Capcom fighters again especially with Street Fighter IV on the horizon, which "revitalized the genre" lol.)
Click to expand...

Thanks for letting me know early to ignore your wrong opinons
 
T

Toad.T

Banned
EVEN THE VAMPIRE'S ARE BIGGER THAN MINE.

Gameplay quality aside (I felt it was just ok.), this is where I felt Castlevania lost it's way in a sense.

The games beforehand were moody as all heck for the time in which each one was released. Of course, as the likes of other series (RE, SH, Indie stuff like Amnesia) became more adept at tense moods, you would think that the series that made it popular would bounce back.

Nope.

Fanservice can in fact be scary if done well. (A article on GameSetWatch delves into this in greater detail than I could.) Instead we get maids with skull vacuum cleaners (The worst of which being PoR. Try attacking the foe with charlotte without facepalming.), Boob envy as suitable pre-battle dialogue and Simon's final boss in MoF. (I won't say anything other than the fact that a make-out scene doesn't belong in one of the final bosses of a Castlevania game.)

As for other arena fighters, I've always been partial to Power Stone, but that may not be what you're looking for.
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
notworksafe said:
Thanks for letting me know early to ignore your wrong opinons
Click to expand...

Wrong? That shit didn't help no fighting game outside of those of Capcom's own. Indeed it brought the genre to the mainstream, but we've been here playing fighting games, both with and without Capcom.

Toad.T said:
EVEN THE VAMPIRE'S ARE BIGGER THAN MINE.

Gameplay quality aside (I felt it was just ok.), this is where I felt Castlevania lost it's way in a sense.

The games beforehand were moody as all heck for the time in which each one was released. Of course, as the likes of other series (RE, SH, Indie stuff like Amnesia) became more adept at tense moods, you would think that the series that made it popular would bounce back.

Nope.

Fanservice can in fact be scary if done well. (A article on GameSetWatch delves into this in greater detail than I could.) Instead we get maids with skull vacuum cleaners (The worst of which being PoR. Try attacking the foe with charlotte without facepalming.), Boob envy as suitable pre-battle dialogue and Simon's final boss in MoF. (I won't say anything other than the fact that a make-out scene doesn't belong in one of the final bosses of a Castlevania game.)

As for other arena fighters, I've always been partial to Power Stone, but that may not be what you're looking for.
Click to expand...

It's a tragedy there's no PowerStone 3 or HD. Also, I'm going to include Psychic Force.
 
R

RM8

Member
This game would have been way better with slightly toned down designs and 2D gameplay. How on earth is the only Castlevania fighter NOT a 2D game? I'll never understand. I enjoyed it, but it's not one of my favorite non-traditional fighters, really - I felt it was a bit too button-mashy and the ultra combos (I don't remember what they're called, lol) are insanely unbalanced and disproportionately easy to perform. Not a perfect game, but yeah, still fun.
 
M

Man God

Non-Canon Member
The GCN/Wii Naruto fighting games (Aka the Clash of Ninja/GNT series) are amazing. The other games are amazing fan service games but are poor attempts at a fighting game.

Castlevania Judgement is fun as hell. It didn't really suffer from the popularity of the other fighting games on the system because it was only preceded by DBZ:BT 2 and 3 and a few VC games.

It's problem is primarily in roster size and of course that god awful art. It's death note mixed with Soul Calibur in all the wrong ways.
 
S

SporeCrawler

Member
Toad.T said:
EVEN THE VAMPIRE'S ARE BIGGER THAN MINE.

Gameplay quality aside (I felt it was just ok.), this is where I felt Castlevania lost it's way in a sense.

The games beforehand were moody as all heck for the time in which each one was released. Of course, as the likes of other series (RE, SH, Indie stuff like Amnesia) became more adept at tense moods, you would think that the series that made it popular would bounce back.

Nope.

Fanservice can in fact be scary if done well. (A article on GameSetWatch delves into this in greater detail than I could.) Instead we get maids with skull vacuum cleaners (The worst of which being PoR. Try attacking the foe with charlotte without facepalming.), Boob envy as suitable pre-battle dialogue and Simon's final boss in MoF. (I won't say anything other than the fact that a make-out scene doesn't belong in one of the final bosses of a Castlevania game.)

As for other arena fighters, I've always been partial to Power Stone, but that may not be what you're looking for.
Click to expand...
completely OT but no. that title goes to lord of shadows or whatever that HD god of war game with castlevania skin was named.

i think it is good that creators innovate on old franchises but you cant just totally kill everything that made the series good and bring a random popular game and clone it and then expect old fans to like it.

if i want god of war i play god of war not castlevania.

i think i really should buy this game. just to complete my IGA (the official castlevania man) castlevania collection.

to mention one more great castlevania game that got underrated.

Castlevania Wiiware. That game is a gem!
 
T

TheFLYINGManga_Ka

Member
I think this game could've been saved or salvaged if the character designs were off of the IgaVanias.

I mean Shanoa for example. All they had to do was use the Order of Eclesia design. But c'mon, really? What were they thinking!
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
One complaint that I may have for CVJ would be the evasion method. I don't think C-stick evasion was the right choice for it. I would've preferred possibly [guard+LS] Or possibly even something like AR, but the R button makes that concept kinda iffy when it comes to Judgement.
 
S

SporeCrawler

Member
Arc Christelle said:
I agree, I really enjoyed that game as a fighter.



But atleast she wasn't ugly in OOE. (art wise, in contrast her actual 3D character model looks good.)
Click to expand...
Shanoa.jpg
Click to expand...
looks okay to me in comparison to all other female characters in judgement. still pretty ridiculous though
dragonlife said:
No way. Her design in OoE is beautiful. It's perfect. Judgment's was a total, total downgrade, though, but it's one of the least offensive/palatable.

What makes it ridiculous? The long hair?
Click to expand...
hey i dig long black hair.
the boots though
castlevania-shanoaign-character-battles---r1m21--shanoa--castlevania--v-palutena-qbzf6rft.jpg
Click to expand...
 
M

Man God

Non-Canon Member
TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
I think this game could've been saved or salvaged if the character designs were off of the IgaVanias.

I mean Shanoa for example. All they had to do was use the Order of Eclesia design. But c'mon, really? What were they thinking!
Click to expand...

They were thinking that Death Note was gothic and popular and would fit in ascetically. It did not.
 
K

Kyzon

Member
Game was amazing. I'd take a sequel with Castlevania 64 Maria. I'd like alt costumes too. That way people can get classic designs and belts everywhere designs.
 
notworksafe

notworksafe

Member
Arc Christelle said:
Wrong? That shit didn't help no fighting game outside of those of Capcom's own. Indeed it brought the genre to the mainstream, but we've been here playing fighting games, both with and without Capcom.
Click to expand...
Yep. You're right. There would have been a 2D MK9, Marvel vs Capcom 3, Street Fighter X Tekken, and Killer Instinct without SF4 being made and proving that fighting games were wanted and could be profitable on levels not seen before.

EVO would have gotten just as big as it is now with only Tekken, VF, and anime games coming out. Twitch streaming of 3D and anime would have revolutionized money making possibilities for the FGC without a name like Street Fighter even being a part of it.

Plenty of arcade sticks were being sold to the mainstream gamer before SF4 no problem. In fact you'd say that there were actually MORE being sold before it, right? SF4 had nothing to do with increasing those sales in the slightest.
 
J

Jotamide

Unconfirmed Member
notworksafe said:
Yep. You're right. There would have been a 2D MK9, Marvel vs Capcom 3, Street Fighter X Tekken, and Killer Instinct without SF4 being made and proving that fighting games were wanted and could be profitable on levels not seen before.

EVO would have gotten just as big as it is now with only Tekken, VF, and anime games coming out. Twitch streaming of 3D and anime would have revolutionized money making possibilities for the FGC without a name like Street Fighter even being a part of it.

Plenty of arcade sticks were being sold to the mainstream gamer before SF4 no problem. In fact you'd say that there were actually MORE being sold before it, right? SF4 had nothing to do with increasing those sales in the slightest.
Click to expand...

SFIV did contribute but you make it sound like it was the sole reason. Blazblue also came on 2008 and air dasher fans were all over that instead.

SporeCrawler said:
the boots though
Click to expand...

This is just nitpicking. OoE's Shanoa has probably the best female lead design in all gaming.

51hRYBZRBbL.jpg
 
T

TheFLYINGManga_Ka

Member
Man God said:
They were thinking that Death Note was gothic and popular and would fit in ascetically. It did not.
Click to expand...
Yeah, even if the fighting community and game critics shrugged it off at least the fans would still like it.

But they managed to alienate every group. When even fans hated it then that's basically sending it to the grave on release day.
 
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