A party represents its members views, and presents them to the voters. Unfortunately, it seems like a sizeable proportion of the PLP doesn't agree with their members and isn't willing to listen to them - they'd rather drag the party through the mud and ensure the headlines are about infighting rather than actually opposing the party in government.
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Theresa May to campaign to take UK out of ECHR in 2020 election
- Thread starter Royal_Phalanx
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A party represents its members views, and presents them to the voters. Unfortunately, it seems like a sizeable proportion of the PLP doesn't agree with their members and isn't willing to listen to them - they'd rather drag the party through the mud and ensure the headlines are about infighting rather than actually opposing the party in government.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Unfortunately there is definitely a mindset in this country that rights are privilege, and not actually, well, a right.
The idea that some shit still applies whether or not someone is a criminal (however loosely they define 'criminal'), is anathema to them. They think they, by way of the State, should be able to punish offenders as they please. The idea that the laws that protect such people are designed in such a way to nominally protect everyone, particularly from a State that would be actively abusive towards them, is lost.
The idea that some shit still applies whether or not someone is a criminal (however loosely they define 'criminal'), is anathema to them. They think they, by way of the State, should be able to punish offenders as they please. The idea that the laws that protect such people are designed in such a way to nominally protect everyone, particularly from a State that would be actively abusive towards them, is lost.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
She really is deranged and obsessed with this issue. Making it her burning "thats my legacy!" drive is just bizarre.
She just really fucking hates human rights I guess?
She just really fucking hates human rights I guess?
Jezbollah
Member
Again, when the voters you need to earn the votes upon on Election day repeatedly signal their intent not to vote for your party, primarily due to your party Leader and his associates, where does the membership matter? Labour has a major disconnect from the wishes of the membership vs their constituency voters. The members have what they want, the PLP see that this is will be a major issue come election day.
Unfortunately the stark reality is with so many people's head in the sand it only becomes evident when the exit poll is announced. Given Labour have been on average in a double digit figure behind the Conservatives since July (source) you have to wonder why so many Labour MPs are against Corbyn when they can forsee their own demise. Thank god Corbyn has no intention of voting to repeal the fixed term parliament act if it happens. Oh, wait..
QuicheFontaine
Member
What bungling? She's trying to activate Art. 50 before March but it's tied up in the courts.
That's where we're at.
travisbickle
Member
See, you're attributing Labour's poor polling numbers to Corbyn, but I'm attributing them to the PLP doing their damndest to self-destruct the party rather than try running a left-wing campaign.
CadetMahoney
Member
There's something specific about privacy they want to remove:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=214680807&postcount=77
One of them is directly against mass surveillance UK does, which is why they want to get rid of human rights bill and just pick and choose what suits them so they can do it without hiding and denying it, without a warrant etc.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The abundant reports of EU officials both enraged and dismayed at the UK's attitude, for starters. From the looks of it, the UK is trying push Brexit out of the door without even knowing the basic certainties of the fact.
General public will fucking love this. It has the word Europe in it, and they've read those Daily Mail articles which show how truly horrendous it is thst prisoners can have rights too.
Expect Tories to destroy 2020 if European hate is strong as it is now. Also if Corbyn is still in charge of Labour.
Expect Tories to destroy 2020 if European hate is strong as it is now. Also if Corbyn is still in charge of Labour.
QuicheFontaine
Member
What does this mean?
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Theresa May's grand plan is that there's no plan.
No due diligence was done and whatever is being worked right now seems either rushed, insufficient or a combination of both, owing to a mix of bad politicians being way over their heads and a lack of resources. Pushing hard for Brexit under these circumstances is the definition of bad governance. It's jumping headfirst into the unknown.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I'm trying to remain open-minded here, but honestly you seem to just be complaining that May is going to carry out Brexit at all. I don't know if there's a 'correct', non-bungly way to go about it. If I ask you what she should do differently, I'm assuming your reply will be basically "Don't do Brexit".
There can be no "certainty" in this case - that depends on other countries reactions / ineterests / priorities, etc. But she's certainly doing the right thing in getting things moving.
Abstrusity
Member
Christ on a pogo stick. I swear before the decade is out that there will be civil war or mass riot/protest in the US and UK as a result of toxic policies being forced down our throats.
It looks like both of our countries are throwing away decades of rights and general stability...for what? I don't even see how more than bankers in the US make more money off of trade wars and fewer rights.
It looks like both of our countries are throwing away decades of rights and general stability...for what? I don't even see how more than bankers in the US make more money off of trade wars and fewer rights.
I think Funky Papa is saying May's policies towards the Brexit deal seem all geared towards hard Brexit and making promises without any compromises.
Nobody is losing any seat.
Back on topic, the Tories never liked Europe, going back to the Thatcher years. Every Tory government has fall over Europe. They will eventually go for hard Brexit.
Nah.
He is saying she is clueless, running around like a headless chicken and in the process performing governance malpractice.
What you suggest, means she actually knows what she wants and the way to achieve that. Nothing they have said and done suggests that they're remotely equipped to deal with any form of Brexit.
"Brexit means Brexit"
"Red, white and blue Brexit"
There is literally no plan. And all their comments seem predicated on this bizarre fantasy that the EU is hugely dependent on us (german cars, prosecco, etc), and that we can pick and choose all the benefits of EU membership with none of the costs ("freedom of movement is bollocks") whilst their EU counterparts react with bemusement. Civil service is complaining that the gov isn't taking it seriously.
Not hard if you bother to keep up with the news.
How do we know there's no plan? The UK is not some developing country. Just because she's been quiet about her plans doesn't mean there's none. She's probably just following the art of war.
Ravensmash
Member
Abstrusity
Member
It's the same thing in the US. The UK might be a big market for EU trade, but removal of the UK doesn't mean they'll never get that trade back elsewhere, or that they won't have favorable positions when the UK desperately needs trade to stay solvent (because, you know, it does). Meanwhile in the US, we're a pretty big importer from China, who have used WTO-legal means to combat China's beyond the pale currency manipulation (manipulation of currency is okay in many situations, but they went further to shut out international competition) who ...needs China more than China needs us. Especially because, if we go against the WTO, the rest of the world can tell us to fuck off, and China can export what we'd otherwise export.
It's bad. I don't think it's them not taking it seriously, it's them not knowing WHAT to take seriously because they're so blinded by a thought that makes sense on the surface but nowhere else.
The global repercussions of our countries' decisions cannot be overstated, and shouldn't be understated.
Is this a serious comment? I can't really tell.
QuicheFontaine
Member
You don't like her soundbites? Fair enough, they're pretty dumb.
As for the apparent lack of plan, that's just constructive ambiguity. Sound negotiating tactic imo.
Thanks for the epic diss and implication that I don't keep up with the news.
AHA-Lambda
Member
yes, cos if there is one party I trust with unilateral control of our affairs it's the fucking tories >_>
What's next do you want us out of the UN too?
And as for there being no plan, well apparently the queen is pissed at May for not even telling her, the Scottish Government admits they've heard nothing substantial, and there was that leaked memo from DeLoitte. Face it, there isn't a plan.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Terrifying.
Then you are ignoring every piece of evidence we have to date, and burying your head in the sand. At some point Corbin supporters are going to have to face up to the facts and realise they are losing because of him and how he runs the party, not some fantasy bogeyman of PLP rebellion that doesn't even exist anymore.
The guy is totally and incapable of running a modern political party, even down to the basics of press releases. His policies have found no favour with the electorate, and at a time when Labour should be demolishing the tories in the polls instead they have a record lead.
He, and John McDonnel and the rest of that motley crew should fuck off and join the socialist worker party. Instead they damn the rest of us to a decade of right wing lunacy when the need for a convincing left wing message has never been stronger.
It is a sound negotiating tactic if you are the superior partner and you can afford to act like an asshole. She is negotiating for four separate parties, two of which are radically opposed to Brexit in the first place and a third that is financially dependent on the Brexit not happening with 27 other state parties, every one able to veto a deal with ease. Not neglecting any of the EEA states that could also block a deal if she would want an EEA solution. That is in the end 33 partners she needs to take into account, all of which are kinda pissed. Even worse when you consider any of the 27 can just say fuck it after two years, no reason to keep talking to you. It is only working as far that she is able to keep control in the Tory party. It is not a good sign she already has this much trouble with her own people.
Shadowhelper
Banned
ell the youth are very split with the old on this stuff, but I still wonder how much will change when Murdoch controls the media, and other racist right wing newspapers control the media, and now Sky is being bought by Murdoch. One of his aims is to destroy the union and the EU. But he is obsessed with making Britain as backwards, racist, sexist as possible, and also very obsessed with destroying the United Kingdom.
He has always been winning.
He has always been winning.
It's to win power. That's the entire reason parties form in the first place in a parliamentary system. Politics is ultimately the use of power, and without it you accomplish nothing. There are no participation medals - if you aren't in power, you accomplish absolutely fuck all.
Blair, did more for the poor and worse off in our society that Corbyn ever has or ever will. If you aren't in power, you can't do *anything*.
It's a lesson the left needs to relearn after the 80s unfortunately. I'm so sick of talking to people who say happily they don't care that Corbyn won't win, because at least he will be right and the party will represent what they want. Come back to me in 2026 and tell me how well that's done us.
Actually some of his policies do find favour with the general electorate. However to your first point, they only find favour when people aren't told that they're his policies.
*Though it is less about policy, but rather position. I don't really rate his ability to turn position into workable policy.
sarcasm?
Anyway, they literally haven't even decided if they even want the UK to have access to the single market yet.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ready-to-ditch-single-market-access-on-brexit
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...u-for-access-to-single-market-ministers-admit
That's how far they are from a plan.
I don't have a problem in principle if the ECHR's statutes are maintained in British law. Then it's really nothing more than some silly Little England-appeasing nonsense to get popularity.
The issue is that I have absolutely no trust in Theresa May to not insert clauses stating that anybody's rights can be removed at any time on the personal whim of the Home Secretary or Prime Minister.
The issue is that I have absolutely no trust in Theresa May to not insert clauses stating that anybody's rights can be removed at any time on the personal whim of the Home Secretary or Prime Minister.
andythinkpad
Member
The whole western world is steering toward right now, and I am talking about the voters making this decision.
OK maybe not Canada but Europe will follow soon.
Norwegian_Imposter
Member
Oh the irony of me being in Norway as a British citizen to a Swedish wife who lives in a country that's out the eu but uses the most eu laws of any country in the eu seeing my homeland tear itself a new one and finally getting to Scandinavia where mostly common sense rules is a good one.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Sounds like the typical rubbish excuse a Trump supporter would stink out.
Doubly so, given the conditions are pretty well known. Are people really expecting Teresa May to materialize a white rabbit from a hat?
Part of the problem is the government pretending there is no rabbit, despite clearly showing it hidden behind their backs.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I love Brexit threads <3
I mean, this one wasn't actually a Brexit thread, but all threads about the UK eventually turn into one these days.
Part of me respects Corbyns stubbornness but at this point we desperately, desperately need someone to unite the party and regain a footing in forming a credible opposition.
The lack of a viable Left of center opposition currently is fucking us up beyond measure as it stands. And that's me speaking as someone who veers towards a more a Conservative sensibility.
May is the goddamn most dangerous person to yield the PM office for decades. At this point I'd take Thatcher back and she was inherently flawed. Cameron messed up in a few areas (the staging of the EU referendum being a major screw up) but fundamentally on policy he could talk a game I understood.
The lack of a viable Left of center opposition currently is fucking us up beyond measure as it stands. And that's me speaking as someone who veers towards a more a Conservative sensibility.
May is the goddamn most dangerous person to yield the PM office for decades. At this point I'd take Thatcher back and she was inherently flawed. Cameron messed up in a few areas (the staging of the EU referendum being a major screw up) but fundamentally on policy he could talk a game I understood.
Praying Trump can do more stupid shit than May in a quicker time to at least make us not feel too alone in misery
The January appeal case in relation to Mays triggering of Article 50 with or without MP sign off
This was expected and at the moment seems inevitable. Labour and it's members have ruined any chance of forming a coherent opposition party that the general public would trust in parliament. Not that it really matters anyway because even though the conservatives have done real damage to the country and it's public services since they took power in 2010, they are untouchable because people are focused on blaming the EU for problems of our own making when they should be looking at our current government. May could do her worst in Brexit negotiations and come out of it just fine with a ready made scapegoat with those nasty EU bureaucrats to blame. She won't call an election before 2020 so Corbyn will be around till then at least (possibly longer if he again decides not to resign). It will take probably another 10 years at least to repair the damage he'll have caused by then.
Pyramid head
Banned
No doubt May will be banking on the very same intolerance, fear, hatred, bigotry and general feeble mindedness of the UK public to once again convince them into voting against their own self interest. So Brexit isn't entirely irrelevant here.
31GhostsIV
Banned
Wow. Yeah, new special British rights scribbled on a napkin by Michal Gove sounds like a much better idea. What could go wrong?
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