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Ricky_R · Dec 6, 2015

Frog-fu said:
It sure feels that way given how you're repeating the same questions just phrased slightly differently as if you're hoping for a different answer that is somehow contradictory.

First or last, it's irrelevant. They've made one game where they did it right. That has earned them my giving Druckmann the benefit of the doubt by believing him.

I don't know what point you think you're making but it's confusing.

You whining that people are discussing a topic you don't like.

It bothers me that you - and so many others - seem to think you can legislate racial discourse to suit your preferences.

You can't. Stop trying to.

On the first point, I reiterate, It was genuine doubt.

On the second part, my point was, and has been from the beginning, that ND deserved the benefit of the doubt when they announced who the voice actress for Nadine was. I had issue with people criticizing ND for the casting decision without proof whatsoever that they did so for racial or discriminatory reasons, which is why I keep pointing out their recent history because it's definitely revelant within the context.

On your last point. I never said I dislike the topic, I've been quite clear about that. My issue was with the people ruining the thread by judging ND's decision for no reason at all.

If you actually believe that criticizing ND before facts in hand was warranted, then we dont have anything more to discuss about that. Like I've said already, I agree with you on the overall issue.

Ghostmaster · Dec 6, 2015

ItIsOkBro said:
I'm on the other end of the spectrum compared to you. Why does a brown character have to be brown culturally? White characters aren't culturally white, whatever that is. The fact is when a character can be anything because race isn't relevant they typically are white because we have ourselves in some kind of white is default situation. So when a character that could have been anything isn't white I see that as equally progressive.

Oh they absolutely can, I just think that this is the thing that most people are complaining about and glossing over the very important fact that the skin color and experiences associated with it are not integral to this character in Uncharted 4. They definitely could have been, since the character is from South Africa and in that case I think there could be more reasons for Naughty Dog to pursue a South African actress and it could actually bring something to the performance, but it seems that is not the case here.

Like the best example I can think of is Niko Belic from GTA 4. His writing and story actually have a lot of do with his ethnic and cultural background and while I think the VO did a good job, I can't help but feel that a Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian VO could have brought something unique and very personal to that role.

Memento · Dec 6, 2015

Perfect response.

Akara · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
I'm honestly pretty shocked by this debate. Nadine Ross isn't a person, she's a completely fictional character.

And it's not even the first time this has happened... This is something that routinely happens in anime and other games. I mean, League of Legends' Lucian is black and voiced by Patrick Seitz.

Are we going to scold caucasian writers for writing dialogue for Asian characters?

So why would we get upset for a caucasian voice actress bringing voice to a South African character?

Was it OK for white men to animate a black woman?

Where do you draw the line?

No line is being drawn, just a simple debate. As I stated in the other thread, usually when developing certain characters with said race, knowledge has been shared from others who are that race or are familiar with it. Nothing wrong with doing what you said in the quoted. I know middle easterns that study religious studies and are more well versed in christianity than most christians and white people more knowledged in Buddhism than myself (and I'm buddhist). It's just nice to have certain representations represented a certain way. There is nothing wrong with doing it the other way with VA and character creation if done tastefully

jrush64 · Dec 6, 2015

firehawk12 said:
Before I check out, I just wanted to raise Sleeping Dogs as example:

They went out of their way to cast Asian actors in all the Asian roles. They didn't have to do that, and probably no one noticed, but one of the reasons why I supported the game was because they intentionally went out of their way to make this happen.

Perhaps the fundamental problem is that Naughty Dog had no idea what the character would look like when they cast Bailey, and maybe they should have nailed down character designs first before thinking about who would play those characters.

Didnt even know about this, but this is really amazing. I also agree with you that they should have nailed down her character design first though.

Akara · Dec 6, 2015

jrush64 said:
Didnt even know about this, but this is really amazing. I also agree with you that they should have nailed down her character design first though.

It's a design choice I think and it works for some developers to develop the character after hiring the actor.

ItIsOkBro · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
I'm honestly pretty shocked by this debate. Nadine Ross isn't a person, she's a completely fictional character.

93xfan · Dec 6, 2015

Great answer and good for him for sticking with the choices that he felt was right.

GametimeUK · Dec 6, 2015

The character could have been black, then switched to white and it still wouldn't have been racist. I think some people don't know what racism is. I really don't see an issue here, it's just character design. From a design standpoint they are free to create whatever character they want and for whatever reason.

JumpCancel · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
I'm honestly pretty shocked by this debate. Nadine Ross isn't a person, she's a completely fictional character.

And it's not even the first time this has happened... This is something that routinely happens in anime and other games. I mean, League of Legends' Lucian is black and voiced by Patrick Seitz.

Are we going to scold caucasian writers for writing dialogue for Asian characters?

So why would we get upset for a caucasian voice actress bringing voice to a South African character?

Was it OK for white men to animate a black woman?

Where do you draw the line?

I agree with you 100%. But you can't win this one. This thread has gone from ND's character and her VA to the deeply woven issues regarding under representation of black actors in all media.

This sparked an issue that many feel strongly about, and are hypersensitive to any counterpoint and mistake examples for your gospel live by and die by stances. Even if you attempt to make those who find offence step back to earth and try to remind them of the original issue of discussion they are already gone.

Laura Bailey despite being white embodies Nadine Ross well enough to continue to play the role. If she couldn't I would hope ND would find a more suitable actress. However since the role only uses the actress' voice and also considering LB years in the industry and range she should be more than suitable.

To me, I don't care if she was being played by a white VA, black VA, a dog, a cat or an alien as long as they best portrayed and represented the character Naughty Dog envisioned. Thats it. People have used this as a launch pad into deeper more widespread issues.

Akara · Dec 6, 2015

GametimeUK said:
The character could have been black, then switched to white and it still wouldn't have been racist. I think some people don't know what racism is. I really don't see an issue here, it's just character design. From a design standpoint they are free to create whatever character they want and for whatever reason.

No no no, no one is saying its racist, I feel like both sides are misunderstood at this point because these pages are too long and random people are plopping in making statements without realizing what's going on.

TheOfficeMut · Dec 6, 2015

firehawk12 said:
Before I check out, I just wanted to raise Sleeping Dogs as example:

They went out of their way to cast Asian actors in all the Asian roles. They didn't have to do that, and probably no one noticed, but one of the reasons why I supported the game was because they intentionally went out of their way to make this happen.

Perhaps the fundamental problem is that Naughty Dog had no idea what the character would look like when they cast Bailey, and maybe they should have nailed down character designs first before thinking about who would play those characters.

But why is this a problem? It isn't a problem that they didn't have the character down beforehand. They gave a multitude of diverse people an opportunity to audition, but still went with who they perceived to be the most talented, regardless of race. They would have done the same thing if the character design was chosen first, I'm sure.

The One and Done · Dec 6, 2015

This topic is way too meta.

Ghostmaster · Dec 6, 2015

GametimeUK said:
The character could have been black, then switched to white and it still wouldn't have been racist. I think some people don't know what racism is. I really don't see an issue here, it's just character design. From a design standpoint they are free to create whatever character they want and for whatever reason.

Most people aren't really complaining about racism, more about the under-representation of minorities in the industry.

Mattenth · Dec 6, 2015

Akara said:
It's just nice to have certain representations represented a certain way.

But why? Have you had an issue with pretty much every black female character having been animated by white guys? Do you think the work would have been better if a black woman had animated the character?

Same could be said for writing - do you think the dialogue would have been more impactful if it was written by someone from South Africa?

There are so many components that go into a character, so many people that are involved with each creation, that it's hard for me to see why it's more important for the voice actress to racially match.

If anything, the complaint shouldn't be leveled against Naughty Dog, but the industry in general. That the games industry simply isn't racially diverse. And it's not just developers, either - the racial diversity of games media is equally poor.

I'm completely on board with advocating for more diversity in the industry's workforce, and as my colleagues can tell you, I do actively advocate for it at any chance I get. Research conclusively shows that, when confronted with complex problems, a diverse workforce performs significantly better on average.

But I think it's ridiculous to pin this issue on a voice actress selection. On a tiny piece of a huge machine that ultimately will have minuscule impact on the creative vision of the game. (Edit: And sorry, not trying to downplay the hard work of voice actors. Just trying to emphasize that they're a single piece in bringing a character to life)

duckroll · Dec 6, 2015

JumpCancel said:
To me, I don't care if she was being played by a white VA, black VA, a dog, a cat or an alien as long as they best portrayed and represented the character Naughty Dog envisioned. Thats it. People have used this as a launch pad into deeper more widespread issues.

It's shit like that which make people jump on you. You realize that right? It's one thing to say the issue doesn't matter to you, but to triple down and say stuff like "it wouldn't even matter if it was played by a dog, a cat, or an alien" is just cartoonishly insulting to the larger issue and shows a serious lack of perspective here.

Sylvrfonic · Dec 6, 2015

igordennis said:
Yes i dont really understand how someone comes to this conclusion:

Women face a specific problem with representation with a trope called "Put a ribbon on it". This is a similar to what ND did with blackness. The character wasn't designed to be representative of any race. She was made black because it looked cool and added some visual interest to the cast. It's not a problem. It's also not representation. ND never claimed that they were trying to be inclusive. It was an assumption I made when I saw the character and I was wrong.

My bad.

The disappointment in this one game that people like me feel doesn't arrive in vacuum. ND doesn't and shouldn't shoulder the responsibility for problems that media in general have. This is just one example in a sea of examples.

Akara · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
But why? Have you had an issue with pretty much every black female character having been animated by white guys? Do you think the work would have been better if a black woman had animated the character?

Same could be said for writing - do you think the dialogue would have been more impactful if it was written by someone from South Africa?

There are so many components that go into a character, so many people that are involved with each creation, that it's hard for me to see why it's more important for the voice actress to racially match.

If anything, the complaint shouldn't be leveled against Naughty Dog, but the industry in general. That the games industry simply isn't racially diverse. And it's not just developers, either - the racial diversity of games media is equally poor.

I'm completely on board with advocating for more diversity in the industry's workforce, and as my colleagues can tell you, I do actively advocate for it at any chance I get.

But I think it's ridiculous to pin this issue on a voice actress selection. On a tiny piece of a huge machine that ultimately will have minuscule impact on the creative vision of the game.

On your first point, black/asian/etc characters that are represented well are usually represented with knowledge from people who are black/asian/etc or have a great understanding of said race. I won't write a book about Buddhism if I know nothing about same thing with if I write a character, I'll feel most comfoortable writing what I do know and asking others if this character portrayal accurate or correct.

We're not really pinning this issue on a voice actress, just acting and general and how Mo-Cap kind of blurs the line. My personal opinion still stands regarding VA if you do the job great, thank you, if you stereotype us or make us look silly, please leave the planet. I do prefer the same races to portray each other but I'm not opposed at all to another race portraying my race in a video game or as a VA. Real acting is different and Mo-CApping is interesting. This issue has always existed in VA but its not as bad or even close to when we look at film, take a look at the charts I've provided.

igordennis · Dec 6, 2015

Sylvrfonic said:
Women face a specific problem with representation with a trope called "Put a ribbon on it". This is a similar to what ND did with blackness. The character wasn't designed to be representative of any race. She was made black because it looked cool and added some visual interest to the cast. It's not a problem. It's also not representation. ND never claimed that they were trying to be inclusive. It was an assumption I made when I saw the character and I was wrong.

My bad.

The disappointment in this one game that people like me feel doesn't arrive in vacuum. ND doesn't and shouldn't shoulder the responsibility for problems that media in general have. This is just one example in a sea of examples.

Ok now i can see how you came to that conclusion, that kinda makes sense.

Zornack · Dec 6, 2015

Sylvrfonic said:
Women face a specific problem with representation with a trope called "Put a ribbon on it". This is a similar to what ND did with blackness. The character wasn't designed to be representative of any race. She was made black because it looked cool and added some visual interest to the cast. It's not a problem. It's also not representation. ND never claimed that they were trying to be inclusive. It was an assumption I made when I saw the character and I was wrong.

My bad.

The disappointment in this one game that people like me feel doesn't arrive in vacuum. ND doesn't and shouldn't shoulder the responsibility for problems that media in general have. This is just one example in a sea of examples.

I don't know how you got that from what Druckmann said. It's not like they wrote the whole character then did one render of her as a black woman and thought "wow that looks cool let's go with that." Also, it's entirely possible to be inclusive without making every decision from an inclusive mindset.

gamerMan · Dec 6, 2015

jrush64 said:
Didnt even know about this, but this is really amazing. I also agree with you that they should have nailed down her character design first though.

They did know she was going to be South African but didn't have character design when they sent out the casting call. So they probably knew she had to have a South African accent so presumably the voice over was probably nailed down before the character was created.

Just because the casting decision doesn't effect you doesn't mean you should be dismissive of other people's point of view. This wasn't only being discussed on NeoGaf, it was discussed in the comments on blogs where they announced Nadine would be played by Bailey like Polygon. I'm glad Neil addressed the issue instead of being dismissive.

firehawk12 · Dec 6, 2015

TheOfficeMut said:
But why is this a problem? It isn't a problem that they didn't have the character down before hand. They gave a multitude of diverse people an opportunity to audition, but still went wth who they perceived to be the most talented, regardless of race. They would have done the same thing if the character design was chosen before hand, I'm sure.

Well, like I said with Sleeping Dogs, they could have cast Troy Baker as Ricky and Laura Bailey as Vivienne and perhaps no one would have noticed. But they decided that the race of the characters was a fundamental aspect of their identity and chose to cast race-appropriately. Their casting director, for whatever reason, decided that the race of the actor - even if they never see them - was an important aspect in playing these distinctly Chinese characters.

the210 · Dec 6, 2015

Frog-fu said:
Between the blatant shitposting, whataboutery and "omg who cares?" posts in the other thread it's rather amazing (in a really shitty way) how comfortable people can be at arbitrating when minorities can and can't discuss or be upset about the representation of their race in media.

As a black man this is truly annoying and getting old. I especially hate the whole a black person voiced some white character so everything must be fine routine. They must not understand the vast majority of characters are white so there is no other way for black actors to get much work.
I shouldn't be surprised majority victory lap going on here. I mean you guys won right since the people who made the choice defended it that completely invalidates some of our concerns

Mattenth · Dec 6, 2015

Akara said:
We're not really pinning this issue on a voice actress, just acting and general and how Mo-Cap kind of blurs the line. My personal opinion still stands regarding VA if you do the job great, thank you, if you stereotype us or make us look silly, please leave the planet. I do prefer the same races to portray each other but I'm not opposed at all to another race portraying my race in a video game or as a VA. Real acting is different and Mo-CApping is interesting.

Yeah, I'm definitely with you there. But I do find it a little interesting how this might pressure developers. You're implying that there should be additional scrutiny on how minorities are portrayed in videogames, which is probably true. I mean, AC:Syndicate's Evie Frye was under more scrutiny - do you think that means Ubisoft will be more likely or less likely to take this risk in the future?

The reality is that even the presence of these debates makes game developers less likely to pursue racial diversity in their creative works. Sure, when we focus a ton on it, you might get a few to budge, but on the whole, I don't think you're getting much.

I wish we'd start talking about the real issue of so little racial diversity within the industry, both developers, publishers, and media alike.

Rather than this inconsequential sideshow that ultimately may cause some developers to shy away from creative diversity and risk-taking altogether.

Naughty Dog should be praised for having an African in their game at all. They could have easily made her white and moved on. And instead we're criticizing them over a single component of the character.

firehawk12 · Dec 6, 2015

Zornack said:
I don't know how you got that from what Druckmann said. It's not like they wrote the whole character then did one render of her as a black woman and thought "wow that looks cool let's go with that." Also, it's entirely possible to be inclusive without making every decision from an inclusive mindset.

I didn't want to bring it up because I thought it might derail the thread, but there's a question of whether or not it's a problem to treat race as a prop that you insert into your text because you think it looks cool.

JumpCancel · Dec 6, 2015

duckroll said:
It's shit like that which make people jump on you. You realize that right? It's one thing to say the issue doesn't matter to you, but to triple down and say stuff like "it wouldn't even matter if it was played by a dog, a cat, or an alien" is just cartoonishly insulting to the larger issue and shows a serious lack of perspective here.

Lack of perspective? This is my stance on the issue and how the character can be played by whoever can portray them best. This isnt my commentary on the wider issue people have shifted this threads direction towards. Its my feeling towards the ND issue that started this thread. It's my opinion that as long as the chosen VA portrays the character as the creators intended there is no issue. People are melding wider issues into this one, which is warranted as there is an overlap but not with my responses.

The hypersensitive response to my example as if It's my way of undermining the misrepresentation of certain races is stretching way beyond my meaning. Also taking that sentence out of the context of my entire post allows for misinterpretation. Read it as a whole, instead of focusing on my closing statement as if its the only one I make. You also missed out the "To me" part of my statement.

Ghostmaster · Dec 6, 2015

firehawk12 said:
Well, like I said with Sleeping Dogs, they could have cast Troy Baker as Ricky and Laura Bailey as Vivienne and perhaps no one would have noticed. But they decided that the race of the characters was a fundamental aspect of their identity and chose to cast race-appropriately. Their casting director, for whatever reason, decided that the race of the actor - even if they never see them - was an important aspect in playing these distinctly Chinese characters.

Isn't this partially because there are relatively large portions of dialogue in Cantonese? I mean you could have other voice actors do it but it's certainly easier to do it with people who have at least some experience and knowledge of it.

firehawk12 · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
The reality is that even the presence of these debates makes game developers less likely to pursue racial diversity in their creative works.

That's like saying there will never be any female characters in games because of the gamergate stuff.

Ghostmaster said:
Isn't this partially because there are relatively large portions of dialogue in Cantonese? I mean you could have other voice actors do it but it's certainly easier to do it with people who have at least some experience and knowledge of it.

For the most part, they all speak English with some Cantonese words thrown in. And I believe all or at least most of them are Asian-American actors, so they still emphasized their English speaking ability.

TheFlow · Dec 6, 2015

I think Naughty Dog should of had the character drawn out and ect..before picking the voice actor.

Savitar · Dec 6, 2015

All I care about personally is if the voice acting goes well with the character that is done, and from what I saw it was done very well.

Anything else is just and pardon the pun, white noise from people complaining.

Basketball · Dec 6, 2015

i'm not even a basketball

Deleted member 30609 · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
The reality is that even the presence of these debates makes game developers less likely to pursue racial diversity in their creative works.

You're going to need to elaborate here. I can't think of examples in other media where this has clearly borne out. A recent equivalent that comes to mind is the Assassin's Creed Unity female character thing, and... well, there's a female character in the new Assassin's Creed.

I guess my question is: why do you believe this?

balgajo · Dec 6, 2015

ND is not the one to blame. Their role is to take the best person for the job.

Fat4all · Dec 6, 2015

Voice acting aside for a moment,

ND has done a good just representing interesting and diverse female characters, it's probably their biggest accomplishment when it comes to how they create their stories. They are certainly less affluent in this specific area (black characters). they show promise, in my opinion, with the black characters they've had in the past.

Honestly, I don't see how we could judge the character as a good or bad in this case until we learn more about the character. It's not really something worth praising or damning them for until we see how the character is played out.

TheFlow said:
I think Naughty Dog should of had the character drawn out and ect..before picking the voice actor.

It seems writing happened before design in this situation, and probably in a lot of situations in the games industry.

Mattenth · Dec 6, 2015

firehawk12 said:
That's like saying there will never be any female characters in games because of the gamergate stuff.

Naughty Dog should be getting praise for including a star character who's African in their game. She's from South African and could have easily been made white instead of black. Instead, they're getting criticized for not doing 1 component (voice acting) exactly right?

Seems like a double-standard... No one's throwing a fit over the animators, the writers, the 3d modelers, etc, and most of them are probably white. So why the voice actress?

Akara · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
Yeah, I'm definitely with you there. But I do find it a little interesting how this might pressure developers. You're implying that there should be additional scrutiny on how minorities are portrayed in videogames, which is probably true. I mean, AC:Syndicate's Evie Frye was under more scrutiny - do you think that means Ubisoft will be more likely or less likely to take this risk in the future?

The reality is that even the presence of these debates makes game developers less likely to pursue racial diversity in their creative works.

I wish we'd start talking about the real issue of so little racial diversity within the industry, both developers, publishers, and media alike.

Rather than this inconsequential sideshow that ultimately may cause some developers to shy away from racial diversity altogether.

Portraying minorities will always be touchy and is up to the producer and executives, rarely the developers. Yes people are afraid to touch upon us because of fears and backlash such as this, but that's the problem when the majority of film's display only white actors/actresses. Create us respectfully, if you're not that race and have no knowledge of that race, you probably shouldn't make that character, if you know it or have some idea, get some insight from someone who knows much more or is. It's not that difficult, look at No Doubt and their Music Video controvery versus Nelly Furtado's Big Hoop music video. Both aren't said race, but one offended, the other respected.

Spring-Loaded · Dec 6, 2015

JumpCancel said:
Lack of perspective? This is my stance on the issue and how the character can be played by whoever can portray them best. This isnt my commentary on the wider issue people have shifted this threads direction towards. Its my feeling towards the ND issue that started this thread. It's my opinion that as long as the chosen VA portrays the character as the creators intended there is no issue. People are melding wider issues into this one, which is warranted as there is an overlap but not with my responses.

The hypersensitive response to my example as if It's my way of undermining the misrepresentation of certain races is stretching way beyond my meaning.

There's no shifting being done the game doesn't exist within a vacuum. It is borne of the world and the people around it, so discussing it within he context of the history of casting on other media is very reasonable.

You don't get to speak on one issue without indirectly speaking on everything it's directly related to. If that sounds ridiculous to you, then you have a problem with reality, not with people finding what you've said in this thread to be ridiculous.

Triggafinga · Dec 6, 2015

firehawk12 said:
Well, like I said with Sleeping Dogs, they could have cast Troy Baker as Ricky and Laura Bailey as Vivienne and perhaps no one would have noticed. But they decided that the race of the characters was a fundamental aspect of their identity and chose to cast race-appropriately. Their casting director, for whatever reason, decided that the race of the actor - even if they never see them - was an important aspect in playing these distinctly Chinese characters.

Were they all Asian or all Japanese or All Chinese. Would it make you outrage if a VA had obviously darker skin than the character in the game even-though they nailed the ethnicity?

Its a non-issue but because its about a ND game. Neil had to address it.

No one cares about AAA developers who never have minority characters. Wish there was positivity surrounding Nadine

firehawk12 · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
Naughty Dog should be getting praise for including a star character who's African in their game. She's from South African and could have easily been made white instead of black. Instead, they're getting criticized for not doing 1 component (voice acting) exactly right?

Seems like a double-standard... No one's throwing a fit over the animators, the writers, the 3d modelers, etc, and most of them are probably white. So why the voice actress?

You can both praise them for having a black South African character and question their casting choice. These are not mutually exclusive positions.

Nanashrew · Dec 6, 2015

Slayven said:
This post actually reminded me of an interview done by Reagan Gomez-Preston a VA, you might know her as Roberta on the Cleveland Show. She talked a good bit about how it is hard for POC voice actors, in some ways worse than regular hollywood because the voice acting community is way more close knit.

So i am calling bullshit on your post

Gonna quote this post because I think many missed it cause the thread was going so fast.

This will definitely play an effect on representation in so many ways of just trying to getting your foot in the door.

Ghostmaster · Dec 6, 2015

firehawk12 said:
That's like saying there will never be any female characters in games because of the gamergate stuff.

For the most part, they all speak English with some Cantonese words thrown in. And I believe all or at least most of them are Asian-American actors, so they still emphasized their English speaking ability.

Oh yeah, but I think it really adds to the flow and immersion even with those small parts.

I remember that Niko actually says some Serbian words in GTA 4 and well.... the guy manages to butcher the pronunciation of pretty much all of them, which is kind of impressive since most of the time he is just saying a five letter word.

firehawk12 · Dec 6, 2015

Triggafinga said:
Were they all Asian or all Japanese or All Chinese. Would it make you outrage if a VA had obviously darker skin than the character in the game even-though they nailed the ethnicity?

Its a non-issue but because its about a ND game. Neil had to address it.

No one cares about AAA developers who never have minority characters. Which there was positivity surrounding Nadine

Several of the cast members include the lead actor are mixed race or not specifically Chinese, for what that's worth. But they also went after some of the bigger named Asian actors in Hollywood right now, and the pool is already fairly small, so there's only so much they could do.

Ghostmaster said:
Oh yeah, but I think it really adds to the flow and immersion even with those small parts.

I remember that Niko actually says some Serbian words in GTA 4 and well.... the guy manages to butcher the pronunciation of pretty much all of them, which is kind of impressive since most of the time he is just saying a five letter word.

I didn't notice as a person who doesn't speak Serbian, but I'm sure you did every time it happened. lol

I said this earlier, but it really did bug me when Laura Bailey did a "Chinese" accent in Binary Domain - https://youtu.be/jCxv1EAEFc4?t=2m8s

I believe they cast her because they wanted someone with mocap experience, but imagining her in a recording booth doing a Chinese accent is just... a strange thought.

GreyOcelot · Dec 6, 2015

neil is the fucking man. truly pushing the medium forward in terms of story telling. he was obviously very instrumental in writing one of the strongest, least sexual female characters in the short history of games. i'm sure he didn't take a decision like this lightly

Triggafinga · Dec 6, 2015

Spring-Loaded said:
There's no shifting being done the game doesn't exist within a vacuum. It is borne of the world and the people around it, so discussing it within he context of the history of casting on other media is very reasonable.

You don't get to speak on one issue without indirectly speaking on everything it's directly related to. If that sounds ridiculous to you, then you have a problem with reality, not with people finding what you've said in this thread to be ridiculous.

Then why dismiss black VAs that have played white characters. The vacuum argument seems to only be applicable to your point of view.

Allowing blacks to VA white roles has to be addressed also . its borne of the world

Mattenth · Dec 6, 2015

firehawk12 said:
You can both praise them for having a black South African character and question their casting choice. These are not mutually exclusive positions.

But why aren't you questioning their choices in animators, writers, and modelers?

(Hint: It's because the gaming media can put a face on the voice actress and spin it as a story, whereas they can't do that as easily with animators/writers/modelers).

Spring-Loaded · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
Naughty Dog should be getting praise for including a star character who's African in their game. She's from South African and could have easily been made white instead of black. Instead, they're getting criticized for not doing 1 component (voice acting) exactly right?

Seems like a double-standard... No one's throwing a fit over the animators, the writers, the 3d modelers, etc, and most of them are probably white. So why the voice actress?

firehawk12 said:
You can both praise them for having a black South African character and question their casting choice. These are not mutually exclusive positions.

^

Not only that, but you can criticize ND and not equal insulting or demeaning them. There's no good reason to be offended by people caring enough about ND's work to bring this matter up.

firehawk12 · Dec 6, 2015

Mattenth said:
But why aren't you questioning their choices in animators, writers, and modelers?

This happens in all media though. For the show Fresh off the Boat, Eddie Huang criticized the show for the fact that they didn't have an Asian writers on a show about an Asian family. The idea of white writers trying to "write Black" is also something that people mention constantly in the context of television and film.

Sylvrfonic · Dec 6, 2015

Zornack said:
I don't know how you got that from what Druckmann said. It's not like they wrote the whole character then did one render of her as a black woman and thought "wow that looks cool let's go with that." Also, it's entirely possible to be inclusive without making every decision from an inclusive mindset.

I re-read what he said I was wrong. They were trying to be inclusive. But thinking that having a strong black woman was as simple as putting a black skin on a character that was written in such a way that race was interchangeable is misguided.

Blackness is not a jacket or a textures stretched across polygons.

To be honest I think this may be a sign of progress. Years ago it may have been enough that she looked black. We've arrived at a place that I feel like it's fine for me to say. It's not enough that she looks black to be representative.

Screen_Shot_2015-06-15_at_1.01.02_PM_xnnnlh.png

JumpCancel · Dec 6, 2015

Spring-Loaded said:
There's no shifting being done — the game doesn't exist within a vacuum. It is borne of the world and the people around it, so discussing it within he context of the history of casting on other media is very reasonable.

You don't get to speak on one issue without indirectly speaking on everything it's directly related to. If that sounds ridiculous to you, then you have a problem with reality, not with people finding what you've said in this thread to be ridiculous.

This topic was discussed in a vacuum, until people expanded it to wider issues. People need to be being able to understand one persons opinion on a single topic doesn't reflect how they feel on a topic adjacent to it. We we're and I'm defending my statements on Naughty Dog having a white VA play the role or a Black character. Thats it. It's up to you to know which topics I dress directly. If you take a statement in one context and apply it to another its interpreted differently. Is that my fault for not being hyper aware of how my views come across in every conceivable way?

An example I gave regarding a perspective to take on black representation was taken as my gospel truth, which to me shows me not only how strongly people feel towards misrepresentation of this kind, but how people read what they want. You pick apart my posts like each sentence exists in a vacuum, when the whole context matters. This topic is simply too sensitive for my opinions, and said opinions simply do not mesh or come out wrong.

PBY · Dec 6, 2015

Triggafinga said:
Then why dismiss black VAs that have played white characters. The vacuum argument seems to only be applicable to your point of view.

Allowing blacks to VA white roles has to be addressed also . its borne of the world

Are white VAs underrepresented?

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