NoMoreTrolls
Banned
Neither do I. What a useless post. At least read through the thread to see what we've been talking about for tens of pages before you essentially thread whine.
EDIT: How was I beaten by someone who is both bored AND lazy?
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Adam Sessler's: On Xbox One and PS4's Resolutiongate, and Day One Patches
- Thread starter Tripon
- Start date
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Neither do I. What a useless post. At least read through the thread to see what we've been talking about for tens of pages before you essentially thread whine.
EDIT: How was I beaten by someone who is both bored AND lazy?
Honestly, and this will not happen the way the Internet and ad revenue is currently constructed, we need people that aren't motivated by page views. And frankly, I don't know if there are any people out there that aren't. And that friggin sucks.
It's something I know Tim Berners-Lee has mentioned in the past, we need other ways of generating revenue online rather than porn and advertising. Hell that's why I subscribe to Giantbomb, even though they've been pretty smarmy about Resolutiongate themselves. Because they provide enough of a service for me to say, you know what, that's worth x amount of money.
We're all up in arms over people changing opinions and everything and really the problem is transparency. That's all gamers want from the press. And I don't think the way the system is constructed that it's even possible. The press is dependent on the publishers to provide them with information before games are released, they're not willing to get blacklisted.
If this continues, I really think GAF reviews (what happened to them anyway?) should come back and GAF should have an official podcast to discuss all of this stuff. We're so involved with the press as it is on here, and the leaks happen on HERE. So why not?
It's something I know Tim Berners-Lee has mentioned in the past, we need other ways of generating revenue online rather than porn and advertising. Hell that's why I subscribe to Giantbomb, even though they've been pretty smarmy about Resolutiongate themselves. Because they provide enough of a service for me to say, you know what, that's worth x amount of money.
We're all up in arms over people changing opinions and everything and really the problem is transparency. That's all gamers want from the press. And I don't think the way the system is constructed that it's even possible. The press is dependent on the publishers to provide them with information before games are released, they're not willing to get blacklisted.
If this continues, I really think GAF reviews (what happened to them anyway?) should come back and GAF should have an official podcast to discuss all of this stuff. We're so involved with the press as it is on here, and the leaks happen on HERE. So why not?
I was just making an assumption - could also be something else. But that app thingy is the most likely for me
Watch his other videos posted in this thread. He's been spreading fud about Sony since E3.
Iorv3th
Member
This shit is working on some people too.
Weird story, but during the CoD midnight launch last night we had a guy come that is always big on PC gaming, yet this guy was trying to say the xbone would be better and when someone mentioned to him the resolution difference he said it wasn't that big of a deal it was like 360 vs ps3. Then I had to butt in and tell him that 1080p vs 720p is a big difference and almost double, he then insisted no ps4 games can't run 1080p 60fps. A few of the other guys in the crowd started listing games that were 1080p etc and the guy had to look it up on his phone and then said "oh i meant battlefield 4 wasn't 1080p". But a lot of other people knew what was up.
Weird story, but during the CoD midnight launch last night we had a guy come that is always big on PC gaming, yet this guy was trying to say the xbone would be better and when someone mentioned to him the resolution difference he said it wasn't that big of a deal it was like 360 vs ps3. Then I had to butt in and tell him that 1080p vs 720p is a big difference and almost double, he then insisted no ps4 games can't run 1080p 60fps. A few of the other guys in the crowd started listing games that were 1080p etc and the guy had to look it up on his phone and then said "oh i meant battlefield 4 wasn't 1080p". But a lot of other people knew what was up.
Maidenpool?
Member
He understands it. Sessler was on stage and said resolution matters. Then a few days ago, he said it wasn't that important. Many here have taken that - and come to the conclusion that Sessler is just another Microsoft paid-off lackey and no longer a journalist, despite an entire career devoted to getting good information to people like us.
The "debate" in this thread is nothing more than how long the rope should be by which we hang him with.
lifeexpectancy
Member
Mods swings for the fences, knocks him outta the park! Not gonna quote one of the more offensive posts for this.
OT: I'm so drained by this whole argument tbh. I wish we could just have an intelligent debate and frank discussion rather than all the poo-flinging like the above.
I didn't give $599 either (well, euros, but anyway). I bought a PS3 years after launch, and I only enjoy 4-5 games at most on consoles.
I'm 99% a PC gamer, I never cared for console wars winners (I do follow the drama though, awesome entertainment I'll guiltily admit), but my recollection from browsing GAF and review threads for the fun of it, is the majority of the press crucifying the PS3 - The quotes from the post I quoted here are not 'cherry picked' details, they are outright saying "DON'T BUY THE PS3 VERSION, IT SUCKS".
The thing is, these past few months MS has almost managed to turn me into a damn 'console warrior' even though I'll just buy a console years down the road, probably a PS4 since the games I'm interested in include God of War and Uncharted, and even that after I've first bought an 8-series new NVIDIA goodness, a new G-sync monitor, etc.
Microsoft's complete disregard for consumers, their attempts to screw everyone with the out of this world DRM and how the vast majority of the 'press' defended that at first, and now constantly spreading FUD about magical balances or upscalers, trying to hide information to misdirect and in a sense cheat consumers, their outright lies, arrogance, somehow guiding the press to repeat what they say, etc... is what is disgusting and why I (and I assume many others) care about this.
THAT'S what a truly subjective press should be focusing on, as long as they cared for actually presenting facts and working in favor of their readers and not the industry's big guys, and that's why I really love GAF for calling out all this hypocrisy, anti-consumer practices, and biased articles with laughable double standards and just pure bullshitting.
Doug Heffernan
Member
Well done sir.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
I already corrected myself, stepped into the midst discussion, sorry
Multiplatform is another story for sure.
If only graphics are your concern then sure.
But they are identical on content, graphics are the only concern in this case, why would you pay $100 more to get an inferior looking game?
The odd thing is - at least among enthusiasts/hardcore - this behaviour is counter productive. All it is doing is rankling us against the media. If they'd just come out and go 'yup, CoD on xbox looks noticably worse than PS4' and then carried on with their day, we'd have moved on.
If MS are doing this deliberately then it is backfiring big time.
Personally I don't think MS is doing this, and I don't think the press are conciously doing it either. More likely they're just used to how things were, and used to getting their press stuff on xbox and everything is nice, and now its all a bit different and they don't like it.
If MS are doing this deliberately then it is backfiring big time.
Personally I don't think MS is doing this, and I don't think the press are conciously doing it either. More likely they're just used to how things were, and used to getting their press stuff on xbox and everything is nice, and now its all a bit different and they don't like it.
maybe after seeing the differences with his own eyes he didn't think it was as much of a concern as he originally thought..
surely he's allowed to change his mind.
its not just them, the rebel fm guys, some ign editors and people at gametrailers are xbone over ps4 as well. maybe the user experience, exclusive offerings and entertainment options are more appealing to some than higher resolutions.
He surely is. I think if he doesn't want to look foolish he should address this though. And most people don't want to look foolish.
It's just crazy to me. That's a legitimate argument, however it doesn't need to be said. All one has to do is say, hey the PS4 has higher resolutions in every next gen game than the Xbone. That's it. All that other stuff is completely irrelevant to the power of the system and frankly mentioning it is a way of deflection.
spookyfish
Member
Loved Sess, but he lost me with his "a PS4 with a camera and PS+ is about the same as XBone - with no Live" false equivalence.
Of course he can change his mind. That doesn't make him any less of an hypocrite though.
I completely agree with what you've written. I'd like to add that I noticed users replying with the "salt" comments when there's a disagreeing opinion and it really stunts any sort of discussion around here. It helps no one to be instigating others on this forum.
You're talking about a guy who pretended Xbox Live was free in order to create a false price equivalency between the PS4 and Xbone, and warned us not to trust what Sony were saying about DRM in order to create a false equivalency between them and Microsoft at E3.
Saying there's not an important difference between 1080p and "upressed 1080p" is just another false equivalency aimed at leveling the playing field.
Nymphae
Banned
You nailed it sir. It's getting gross. I'd like to repost something I posted last night that I think was buried pretty quickly:
GAF is not representative of the gaming media. This thread alone should make that clear. And no, that impression was simply not the case, sorry:
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/04/29/counting-pixels-gta-iv-runs-at-630p/
http://www.lazygamer.net/xbox-360/gta-iv-runs-at-lower-resolution-on-ps3-but-is-this-a-bad-thing/
http://www.ripten.com/2008/04/29/confirmed-gta-iv-ps3-is-not-630pits-640p/
http://www.examiner.com/article/red-dead-redemption-runs-at-a-lower-resolution-on-ps3-than-xbox-360
http://gamer.blorge.com/2010/05/26/red-dead-redemption-visuals-head-to-head-on-ps3-and-xbox-360/
There were some people who pointed to the resolution difference, of course:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/digitaljo...-iv-is-better-on-xbox-360-than-playstation-3/
On balance, however, I think it's difficult to maintain that journalists last gen were damning of the PS3 where they are now giving Xbone a free pass. Again, these quotes are obviously not entirely representative of gaming journalism, and they're not intended to be. I'm merely demonstrating that individual quotes can support different pictures of what happened, especially when you only use four (and doubly so when one of them is Bayonetta, a port so bad that it significantly affected the gameplay).
Perhaps individual journalists. But journalism in general? I disagree. And again, I think we need to wait for reviews to come out before we start saying that they were penalising the PS3 for graphics but not Xbone. We don't know if they are, and it's not unusual for glowing previews to result in reviews that trash the game.
Finally, I agree that MS are not getting the drubbing that they should do from the media. Some sites were noticeably anti-MS in the wake of E3, such as Kotaku, but seem to have softened up that line, which I think is a shame.
BakedSardine
Banned
Even worse, asking them to attend a review event in NYC and tote their free PS4 back on the plane.
Absolute horror.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
He is hanging himself, we are just kicking the chair from under him.
Sessler has done a lot of great game coverage, and I will probably see a lot more that he creates. When it comes to the question of performance (not pixels, not aliasing, nort blurriness, but PERFORMANCE) of the upcoming consoles I just don't agree with him.
Since more quality does not detract from my experience, and I get to pay less, it's the same as with my food, TV, etc: Of COURSE I want the best I can have. Why the hell not?
Since more quality does not detract from my experience, and I get to pay less, it's the same as with my food, TV, etc: Of COURSE I want the best I can have. Why the hell not?
My thoughts on this and other similar articles or videos:
- It's not about resolution/gfx vs. gameplay - it's about resolution/gfx AND gameplay.
Do I applaud Shadow of the collosus for it's great gameplay - absolutely! Would the game be better at a higher resolution and a more stable framerate - absolutely!
I get this feeling this argument is used as a strawman to produce a false train of thought in order to dismiss the opinions of people who care about resolution and gfx:
You care about resolution and gfx -> you don't care about gameplay -> you are not a real gamer...
I find this approach dishonest at best and insulting at worst. - "Resolutiongate" is not the result of comparing two different games - it's about the comparisons of the same game on two different plattforms where the only major difference (as far we can tell) is the resolution.
That's what makes it significant (125%). There is no advantage in having a resolution of only 720p.
Gameplay doesn't even factor into this. - It's the hypocrisy of the media that makes people upset. Sony got teared a new one in 2006 - and rightfully so. Fast forward to 2013 and everything is "wait and see", "Sony too", "not a huge difference", "angry internet mob" while largely neglecting a significant performance difference which is emphasized by the inferior platform being more expensive
- I personally want the gaming press to primarily provide facts and information. I am especially interested in information that I can't get elsewhere like investigative journalism (shoutout to Jason Schreier). Although I have a computer science background it would be nice to read some thorough technical analyses which can fill in some gaming specific blanks. Sadly most of the time it seems that we are only getting rephrased talking points of a console manufacturer (negative shoutout to DF/RL - thankfully TechGAF was able to fill in these blanks ( e.g. memory requirements of forward vs. deferred rendering)).
- Secondarily I am intersted in the opinions from the gaming press as well.
Most of the time I'd prefer them to take the side of the gamer, see issues from his perspective and make his case. In the end the gamer is the target audience and the one who keeps this whole industry going.
Just to be crystal clear - this shouldn't be confused with the gaming press simply adhering to the majority opinion of gamers. What I am trying to say is that the gaming press should adhere to opinions that are in the best interest of the gamer.
Only sometimes I'd like the gaming press to side with the gaming corporations in order to offer a different point of view in order to deliver a more complete picture.
This whole year, especially when it came to DRM, I had the feeling it was the other way round. Most of the press defended MS while only a select few called MS out (shoutout to Marcus Beer as he get's a lot of crap (rightfully) for his made up rumor about PS4s overheating; Shoutout to Jim Sterling as well)
Metalmurphy
Member
I always got the impression that Sessler was only trying to "level the playing field" during the E3 days simply because MSat the time was the underdog. However as he kept doing it over and over again and the hypocrisy only increased I simply can't take it seriously anymore. There is a very very clear agenda in him.
And Keighley did the same thing preE3 but stopped after the Sony conference after seeing how wrong he was. Sessler on the other hand just kept digging that hole.
And Keighley did the same thing preE3 but stopped after the Sony conference after seeing how wrong he was. Sessler on the other hand just kept digging that hole.
Yes. That's why I think it's best to think of these people as pundits instead of journalists.
Hear, hear
Sessler is a brilliant mind that we have in the industry, with very insightful and interesting thoughts and ideas, which I find myself to agree with most often than not. This is one of the times I do not agree with him, however.
The reason why Xbox 360 had such an advantage over the PS3 when it came to third party games was simply because the games performed better. The framerate, textures and the overall experience were all better, and that was a problem for Sony. It was a big deal then, and we're now seeing something similar with the disparity of the resolutions between the two new consoles.
Gameplay is a very important factor of course, but to try to undermine the visual element which is also a major factor in this day and age is just not right.The problem here isn't even really about the type of resolutions and framerates we're trying to achieve, which I believe is the point Adam is trying to undermine, but it's the huge rift in disparity in this case between the two that is the problem. It's especially troubling considering that the inferior version is on the more expensive console. Isn't that obviously bothersome? Really?
Why wouldn't performance matter now, when it mattered this gen? Why should we soften our stance when we rather should be even more critical about issues like these?
Just my two cents.
The reason why Xbox 360 had such an advantage over the PS3 when it came to third party games was simply because the games performed better. The framerate, textures and the overall experience were all better, and that was a problem for Sony. It was a big deal then, and we're now seeing something similar with the disparity of the resolutions between the two new consoles.
Gameplay is a very important factor of course, but to try to undermine the visual element which is also a major factor in this day and age is just not right.The problem here isn't even really about the type of resolutions and framerates we're trying to achieve, which I believe is the point Adam is trying to undermine, but it's the huge rift in disparity in this case between the two that is the problem. It's especially troubling considering that the inferior version is on the more expensive console. Isn't that obviously bothersome? Really?
Why wouldn't performance matter now, when it mattered this gen? Why should we soften our stance when we rather should be even more critical about issues like these?
Just my two cents.
disastermouse
Banned
He has already hung himself, we've simply noticed that he's dead.
3rdamention
Member
You are exactly right!
He seems to be missing that outcry isn't coming because a game isn't 1080p/60fps. The drama continues to unfold as the exact same title is different resolutions on Xbox One and PS4. Some Xbox One fans are not disappointed that some of their launch games are 720p or 900p. They are disappointed because the PS4 version, of the same game, is running at a higher resolution compared to theirs. That is the whole point of this drama the past few weeks and it went completely over Sessler's head.
If there was only 1 next gen console, and the games were launching at 720p or 900p, this would not be a huge deal at all. Not everyone is drooling in anticipation of every game being 1080p/60fps. It is more the fact that one console is running some launch games at a higher resolution than the other console running the same game.
Well, they still look like being the underdog in this generation in the global market.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
your looking at 640 vs 720 there. This is 720 vs 1080.
I agree what your generally trying to say but just remember the difference is a lot more this time.
Metallix87
Member
No matter how Nintendo is doing, they're always omitted, it seems. The last of their consoles that wasn't was the Nintendo 64. I don't know how they can mend their relationship with the western gaming press.
As for Valve, it's only a matter of time until the gaming press is forced to take them seriously and talk openly about what they offer.
gutterboy44
Member
I agree that there seems to be "inconsistencies" with a lot of games journo's reporting of late. I don't think it is a conspiracy, malicious, or intentional. I just don't think there are very good standards and practices in gaming journalism in general. Bad habits are easy to form and hard to rid. Unfortunately it is the nature of the beast. The current that gaming journos all swim in, even beloved "rogues" like GB, is set by the very companies they are supposed to be objectively analyzing. Well when it suits them it is objective hard-nosed reporting. When things get sketchy, its just opinions bro, don't sweat it. Moreover, extreme biased opinions and personalities are often rewarded with loyal readers/listeners and internet "fame." We are in this transitional phase where all of the previous "stalwarts" of gaming journalism, the big websites like IGN, etc are either out of their league, or so deeply embedded in the old system they can't see the forest for the trees. On the other side, you have the complete "outsiders", main stream non-gaming journalism reporting on gaming in the pages of NYT, Washington Post, etc and they come off as out of touch parents trying to buy their kid the right game for X-mas. I can only hope things eventually level off and we get something in the middle, with its own form of ethics and consistent metrics for quality.
Regarding this whole console war: The last two generations have been dominated primarily with Xbox v. Playstation. Specs, features, exclusives, etc were always on the table for comparison. Now all of a sudden with XB1 v. PS4 releasing a week apart, positioning against each other like a title bout, in all of their marketing, language, etc, gaming enthusiasts harping on direct spec comparisons suddenly become assholes? You want to see assholes harping on spec comparisons, go talk to a Verizon cell phone salesman. Of course there are going to be the over reaction posts, on both sides, this is the internet! But ignore those people and take the median tone, which seems to be, "uh yeah, so is this 720p v. 1080p gap going to be the norm? Because if it is, I might need to reconsider what I do with my money, as in right now, not two years from now." That is all. "Resolutiongate" affects people differently, but the fact that it has a earned a cringe worthy, "gate" suffix, continuing to dismiss the concerned is not going to help anyone involved.
Yes, this is a life or death spec battle for some, the pixel counters, the fanboys, etc. For others, they would literally never know if you beat them over the head with a 4K screen while they game on their 23" 720p 1st gen HDTV made from old phonographs. But guess what, since last gen launch, consumers in general are way more privy to specs, especially gamers who are buying up everything day one. As I mentioned before, look at the cell phone market, it is nothing but a spec dick measuring contest. Now that most consumers are on at least their second smartphone, they are wading into spec comparison waters. "What's an Apple Droid phone?" moms and dads are being introduced to PPI, resolutions, cores, etc. These "inconsequential" resolution specs have been some of the biggest bulletin points of the biggest press conferences every year, the Apple iPhone and iPad events. Yeah, but fuck it, no one but a handful of pedant GAFers can tell the difference between 1080p and 720p. I don't give a shit about money hats, just don't be condescending to the very fan base that you volunteered to represent and or service with your career. Don't bite the Doritos dust covered hand that feeds. This is a demographic that knows the revision number of their HDMI cables, and is prepared to drop over $1,000 on gaming goods in November alone. Some have gone too far, but assume the majority simply want a bit of clarification and consistency leading up to an equally exciting and wallet thinning launch.
PS - Gaming websites, you don't get to have the click bait cake of XB1 v. PS4 hype articles and then turn around and eat the "but this aspect of the comparison doesn't matter" too.
Regarding this whole console war: The last two generations have been dominated primarily with Xbox v. Playstation. Specs, features, exclusives, etc were always on the table for comparison. Now all of a sudden with XB1 v. PS4 releasing a week apart, positioning against each other like a title bout, in all of their marketing, language, etc, gaming enthusiasts harping on direct spec comparisons suddenly become assholes? You want to see assholes harping on spec comparisons, go talk to a Verizon cell phone salesman. Of course there are going to be the over reaction posts, on both sides, this is the internet! But ignore those people and take the median tone, which seems to be, "uh yeah, so is this 720p v. 1080p gap going to be the norm? Because if it is, I might need to reconsider what I do with my money, as in right now, not two years from now." That is all. "Resolutiongate" affects people differently, but the fact that it has a earned a cringe worthy, "gate" suffix, continuing to dismiss the concerned is not going to help anyone involved.
Yes, this is a life or death spec battle for some, the pixel counters, the fanboys, etc. For others, they would literally never know if you beat them over the head with a 4K screen while they game on their 23" 720p 1st gen HDTV made from old phonographs. But guess what, since last gen launch, consumers in general are way more privy to specs, especially gamers who are buying up everything day one. As I mentioned before, look at the cell phone market, it is nothing but a spec dick measuring contest. Now that most consumers are on at least their second smartphone, they are wading into spec comparison waters. "What's an Apple Droid phone?" moms and dads are being introduced to PPI, resolutions, cores, etc. These "inconsequential" resolution specs have been some of the biggest bulletin points of the biggest press conferences every year, the Apple iPhone and iPad events. Yeah, but fuck it, no one but a handful of pedant GAFers can tell the difference between 1080p and 720p. I don't give a shit about money hats, just don't be condescending to the very fan base that you volunteered to represent and or service with your career. Don't bite the Doritos dust covered hand that feeds. This is a demographic that knows the revision number of their HDMI cables, and is prepared to drop over $1,000 on gaming goods in November alone. Some have gone too far, but assume the majority simply want a bit of clarification and consistency leading up to an equally exciting and wallet thinning launch.
PS - Gaming websites, you don't get to have the click bait cake of XB1 v. PS4 hype articles and then turn around and eat the "but this aspect of the comparison doesn't matter" too.
Even though these quotes are obviously not as damning as the previous 'collection', they still either very much acknowledge the technical differences and some (the last two) kind of imply that "hey, you can also enjoy the PS3 lesser version though, it's OK", or they support the choice of better effects and frame rates as opposed to higher res, which again takes into account that graphics are important.
It's a really different situation now, with journalists repeating left and right that differences don't matter at all, shouldn't matter, that the gap will magically close even though the PS4 is simply more powerful hardware-wise, that anyone caring is a "pixel counter with a magnifying glass" or something like this, and all that.
Couple those quotes you provided with as many others being damning, and it's a different picture for PS3 vs. 360
I do agree though that we'll judge the extend of any existing bias and double standards after final reviews start pouring in.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
The embargo is embargo'd?
><
Just like the pixels.
Glass Shark
Banned
I'd give this post a 5... out of 5.
Amazing. Like the superinjunctions in the UK that prevent you mentioning the existence of the injunction.
It's difficult to deny that, in general, gaming journalism needs a change.
Deadstarone
Member
I've heard many people say these consoles releasing feels like an election. This kind of journalism is why.
Every outlet is downplaying any advantage that one platform has over the other while avoiding talking about disadvantages by either not attributing them, saying they don't matter, or even not quantifying them in a statement.
This gives the illusion of a close race between the two even though there are many metrics we could measure about how the PS4 will be better than the Xbox One.
It's the close race narrative that energizes people to post on forums, to watch videos, and to visit websites. They've manufactured the frenzy and there's nothing we can do about it except post our feelings and try to call them on the bullshit. They're getting the clicks they want.
Every outlet is downplaying any advantage that one platform has over the other while avoiding talking about disadvantages by either not attributing them, saying they don't matter, or even not quantifying them in a statement.
This gives the illusion of a close race between the two even though there are many metrics we could measure about how the PS4 will be better than the Xbox One.
It's the close race narrative that energizes people to post on forums, to watch videos, and to visit websites. They've manufactured the frenzy and there's nothing we can do about it except post our feelings and try to call them on the bullshit. They're getting the clicks they want.
chickdigger802
Banned
Nothing wrong about thinking just about the games. but dismissing people that do care about resolutions is a bit lame, especially at launch when there pretty much are only games that are graphics with same old boring gameplay.
PJV3
Member
The resolution issue doesn't bother me, combining it with a more expensive price tag and then mixing in the original consumer rights destroying vision, I just can't get my head around this gen. Microsoft and some of the gaming press have lost the plot.
You can't piss on someones back, and tell them it's raining.
You can't piss on someones back, and tell them it's raining.
Yeah. I understand that deep down the intentions are probably good, but it's starting to look more like an obsession, with people getting each other more and more riled up about this. I've been a GAF member for 15+ years, I've seen a lot of discussions and usually don't mind threads like these, but this is honestly getting a bit tiring even for me. But maybe I've just forgotten how crazy things can get around big console launches.
Such as? Next gen (primarily PS4) versions of games look considerably better than current gen. I don't see how you'll have to worry about much besides better looking and more feature rich versions of the games most people will be buying/playing anyway.
Journo who was at the review event and played all versions of the game.
The embargo is embargo'd?
><
Who is Bros with Fros?
Thanks. He has a great username.
True Underdog
Member
Damn.
- Status