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[epmode]

As far as I can tell, there are two likely causes:

1. The improved lighting was dropped at the end of development because framerate problems couldn't be resolved during the optimization phase. This means the improved lighting could be in the PC port but I can easily see Namco/From not putting in the extra effort. Not when they can repackage it for a PS4/XBone release.

2. The improved lighting was dropped due to overwhelmingly negative player feedback. Maybe the whole pitch-black-without-a-torch thing isn't fun in practice. ..but if this is the case, From would have known about the complaints ages ago, well before the videos from two months ago were released. How could they get so far into development of a mechanic they knew was shit?

 

[Necromanti]

The only other explanation that might make some sense is that From did some testing late in development and got pretty much overwhelming feedback that the game was too dark and relied too much on the torch mechanic. They panicked and the only way to quickly change things was to turn off a significant part of the lighting solution to make the game brighter overall, might explain why some outdoor areas are less affected?

Who knows, taking wild guesses here honestly.

I hypothesized the same earlier, which would similarly damn the PC version.

If it was merely to quickly get a boost in overall performance, then there's still hope yet.

I fear it is more likely to be the former.

 

[JoeFenix]

I hypothesized the same earlier, which would similarly damn the PC version.

If it was merely to quickly get a boost in overall performance, then there's still hope yet.

I fear it is more likely to be the former.

What a stupid solution to that problem though if that's the case. How about making is so the torch doesn't take up a player's hand instead or change it into a lantern that sits on the player's belt that you have to charge by holding it next to a sconce.

I mean there's many different ways to deal with the problem that don't involve butchering the visuals....

 

[Draper]

Makes me less miserable about holding off for a PS4 version. Im hopeful.

 

[Messofanego]

Hearing that it might be a game design issue with dark areas now being made useless with now being able to see everything rather than just reducing lighting for framerate gain which doesn't even seem worth it with impressions, this is quite worrying.

I think I'll live with getting the 360 version and if I love the game a lot, double dip a month later for PC. But man, this just sucks. If this stuff is removed in the PC version, woof

 

[Soriku]

As far as I can tell, there are two likely causes:

1. The improved lighting was dropped at the end of development because framerate problems couldn't be resolved during the optimization phase. This means the improved lighting could be in the PC port but I can easily see Namco/From not putting in the extra effort. Not when they can repackage it for a PS4/XBone release.

This doesn't make much sense to me. The PC version is already superior by virtue of being on PC, so I don't know why they they wouldn't keep the lighting. It shouldn't be too hard. The PC version is already releasing later than the console versions, and rereleases are usually just there for extra sales, not the lion's draw, even if they often have new additions. If DkS2 was just a PS3/360 game, then maybe, but it would be odd to gimp a PC version that way.

 

[~Kinggi~]

The types of changes in the lighting though seem to go beyond simply fixing an issue of being too dark. I mean to alter a lot of the atmospheric lighting effects in favor of a washed out, brighter bland look is ridiculous and would make me question the competency of the developers.

But we know very little right now so its all speculation.

 

[BigDug13]

Are you able to drop the torches? One of the coolest mods for Oblivion was the ability to drop the lit torch you were holding so that you could do battle and the room would still be illuminated. Being forced to constantly hold your torch even when fighting when realistically you'd just drop it would be really silly.

 

[B-Genius]

Oh and the people screaming bloody murder at From Software and calling them liars/thieves/scum really need to take a step back.

Clearly this wasn't done to deceive people, software development is hard and something came up that forced their hand. I'm not condoning the changes but let's not go crazy here either.

Thank you for this. People always get so worked up at this sort of news without knowing the details, and fingers start pointing everywhere immediately. Always got to be someone to blame without first looking for a concrete explanation.

First it's boo BN and their wacky marketing schemes in one thread/post, then it's curse you From for forsaking your loyal fans in another. So many self-appointed industry vets who don't have enough of the full picture.

I'm not discounting anyone's opinion here. You have every right to be disappointed with what you're seeing, and I absolutely understand if you're inclined to cancel your pre-order and/or wait for the PC version if you feel so strongly about graphics. It's just when the blame game starts and doom-and-gloom tinfoil hats come on that the discussion starts to lose merit. Let's get the facts straight first, then decide who to put in the stocks if we absolutely feel the need to shame/ridicule a certain group of people.

Edit:

I hope they release some sort of public statement to atone for this embarrassment.

This is what I'm talking about. Who do you even mean by "they"? Will you feel better about yourself and the industry if they do this? You're entitled to your opinion and principles as a consumer, and as an adult you're fully capable of making an informed decision about your purchase. So first get the information, then make your decision, then grab the pitchforks/torches if you absolutely have to.

 

[KCroxtonJr]

This doesn't make much sense to me. The PC version is already superior by virtue of being on PC, so I don't know why they they wouldn't keep the lighting. It shouldn't be too hard. The PC version is already releasing later than the console versions, and rereleases are usually just there for extra sales, not the lion's draw, even if they often have new additions. If DkS2 was just a PS3/360 game, then maybe, but it would be odd to gimp a PC version that way.

Because it's not like they just clicked a button that disabled dynamic shadows. They did MUCH more than that. You would have a much longer wait than 6 weeks for the PC version if they were to increase the graphics the way people are hoping.

I would LOVE to be wrong, but don't expect the PC version to look much different.

 

[Soriku]

Because it's not like they just clicked a button that disabled dynamic shadows. They did MUCH more than that. You would have a much longer wait than 6 weeks for the PC version if they were to increase the graphics the way people are hoping.

I would LOVE to be wrong, but don't expect the PC version to look much different.

This is assuming they'd start working on fixing the lighting in that timeframe, when they'd have likely been working on it on the PC version long ago (if they do plan on fixing it), even if the lighting on the console version was downgraded a while ago. And then there's that extra month to polish the game up.

 

[ElFly]

What a stupid solution to that problem though if that's the case. How about making is so the torch doesn't take up a player's hand instead or change it into a lantern that sits on the player's belt that you have to charge by holding it next to a sconce.

I mean there's many different ways to deal with the problem that don't involve butchering the visuals....

The player held an invisible lantern in Dark/Demon Souls and it looked so dumb. I guess that they wanted to change this and built a game mechanic around it, but in the end the consoles could not support it.

Kind of a dumb idea to lead with PC then.

I hate when games just lazily put an invisible light source on the player.

 

[akira28]

I really hated fighting with a torch. fucking thing always got dimmer when I would do dodge flips...

 

[doofy102]

The player held an invisible lantern in Dark/Demon Souls and it looked so dumb. I guess that they wanted to change this and built a game mechanic around it, but in the end the consoles could not support it.

Kind of a dumb idea to lead with PC then.

I hate when games just lazily put an invisible light source on the player.

In Demon's Souls the player had a visible glowing crystal thing. It hanged from the waist and had a name and everything. Not sure if Dark Souls did, but I've always liked the effect.

 

[JoeFenix]

The player held an invisible lantern in Dark/Demon Souls and it looked so dumb. I guess that they wanted to change this and built a game mechanic around it, but in the end the consoles could not support it.

Kind of a dumb idea to lead with PC then.

I hate when games just lazily put an invisible light source on the player.

Huh Demon's Souls has a light emitting crystal on your belt, it makes total sense. Dark Souls didn't really do anything to justify the fact that the player character needs to emanate atleast a small amount of light though.

The torch mechanic is different, the player character still emanates light in DS2 but it's not enough to illuminate more than 2 meters in front of you. That's where the torches were supposed to come into play.

 

[Ostinatto]

The player held an invisible lantern in Dark/Demon Souls and it looked so dumb. I guess that they wanted to change this and built a game mechanic around it, but in the end the consoles could not support it.

Kind of a dumb idea to lead with PC then.

I hate when games just lazily put an invisible light source on the player.

you mean this invisible lantern?

 

[ElFly]

In Demon's Souls the player had a visible glowing crystal thing. It hanged from the waist and had a name and everything. Not sure if Dark Souls did, but I've always liked the effect.

Maybe you are right on Demon.

Still don't like the effect, Looks so weird to walk up to something and have it being lit up; besides I don't think that Dark did it. Even if Demon put a light emiting crystal on your belt, the light doesn't behave like that. It doesn't cast a shadow behind you, if it casts shadows at all. It's just a hack to disguise the poor lighting system in the game.

you mean this invisible lantern?

Bah, so dumb they keep doing it.

In earlier builds of the game, such as the network test, the player didn't emit any light at all, making the torch truly necessary.

So basically, they took away the inherent invisible light system, the consoles couldn't support it, and rolled back to the invisible light.

 

[Regulus]

The torch mechanic is different, the player character still emanates light in DS2 but it's not enough to illuminate more than 2 meters in front of you. That's where the torches were supposed to come into play.

In earlier builds of the game, such as the network test, the player didn't emit any light at all, making the torch truly necessary.

 

[KCroxtonJr]

This is assuming they'd start working on fixing the lighting in that timeframe, when they'd have likely been working on it on the PC version long ago (if they do plan on fixing it), even if the lighting on the console version was downgraded a while ago. And then there's that extra month to polish the game up.

The only time they could have started working on improving the visuals from the downgrade is AFTER the downgrade even happened. And like I said, it wasn't a simple button they pressed to downgrade things, they had to have gone through the entire game and change a ton of stuff to make the new look consistent. There is no way they were working on improving the graphics and downgrading them at the same time.

I hope I'm wrong.

 

[JoeFenix]

In earlier builds of the game, such as the network test, the player didn't emit any light at all, making the torch truly necessary.

I don't remember how it was in the Beta but the player definitely emited light in the TGS PS3 build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GdJP_Jhs2s

Look at 2:40 for clear evidence and also to see just how pitch black some rooms were meant to be.

 

[gdt]

Mannnn this thread is bumming me out. This game is going to get savaged. All the love from the last two games is going to turn into blind hate.

It's gonna be so much fun (and a bummer too)

 

[Seance]

The only time they could have started working on improving the visuals from the downgrade is AFTER the downgrade even happened. And like I said, it wasn't a simple button they pressed to downgrade things, they had to have gone through the entire game and change a ton of stuff to make the new look consistent. There is no way they were working on improving the graphics and downgrading them at the same time.

I hope I'm wrong.

Why are you assuming the PC version was downgraded?

 

[JoeFenix]

Mannnn this thread is bumming me out. This game is going to get savaged. All the love from the last two games is going to turn into blind hate.

It's gonna be so much fun (and a bummer too)

The game still seems pretty good, sure this change is a bummer but it's not like it renders the game unplayable or breaks it completely. It's still going to be a good experience by all accounts.

I just don't know if I should wait for a potentially less compromised version or if I should just say fuck it and grab it on PS3....

 

[GenericBadGuy]

Mannnn this thread is bumming me out. This game is going to get savaged. All the love from the last two games is going to turn into blind hate.

It's gonna be so much fun (and a bummer too)

It really isn't. This is being way overblown. Ive seen the game from beginning to end already (I didn't mind spoilers). Its going to be better than fine.

 

[jim2point0]

Why are you assuming the PC version was downgraded?

Why not?

I'm setting my expectations low at this point.

 

[ironcreed]

It really isn't. This is being way overblown. Ive seen the game from beginning to end already (I didn't mind spoilers). Its going to be better than fine.

Indeed. Nobody gave a fuck about the visuals in Demon's or Dark Souls and this game damn sure looks better than both of those... easily. Seeing the game being played and looking at these blown up, compressed cherry picked shots is like night and day. It's hilarious.

 

[gdt]

It really isn't. This is being way overblown. Ive seen the game from beginning to end already (I didn't mind spoilers). Its going to be better than fine.

Backlash is always way overblown.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s

Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s

 

[quantumnerd]

If people were fine with DS1, people will be fine with DS2 having similar graphics. That said, a proper lighting system would be really fun. I don't think they'll ship the last-gen console versions with it, but maybe the next-gen/PC versions will have better lighting.

 

[doofy102]

Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s

Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s

I've been fairly okay about the downgrade so far.. but this hurts. The game actually looks less good.

 

[-MD-]

Really hoping they ended up pulling the extra features for performance purposes and they'll be in the PC version.

 

[Grief.exe]

Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s

Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s

So it seems like they have been just demoing the PC version this whole time. Essentially an industry-wide practice at this point.

If you look at the walls in the demo version and the console version you will see the specular highlights that are present in the PC version's screenshots so far. IE the shiny walls.

Makes me feel very good about the PC version, I hope it is that dark and the lighting that good.

 

[rockman zx]

Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s

Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s

indeed

 

[GodParticle]

I've avoided all DS2 press, but just clicked on that video with the torches. That's really cool. I'd love something like that. I'd be really cool if you could mount your torch in the room where it's just sort of half lit

 

[Grief.exe]

I've avoided all DS2 press, but just clicked on that video with the torches. That's really cool. I'd love something like that. I'd be really cool if you could mount your torch in the room where it's just sort of half lit

If you watch the console version closely, he actually passes a place that is obviously meant to be lit.

 

[KCroxtonJr]

Why are you assuming the PC version was downgraded?

Because unless FROM has had the time and resources to develop two pretty substantially different looking versions of the game, the downgrade applies to ALL versions of the game.

 

[Metalingus5150]

I'm willing to bet they listened to the complaints of "it's too dark"
That's just..sad.

 

[doofy102]

If you watch the console version closely, he actually passes a place that is obviously meant to be lit.

Yep, he skips right past something that was supposed to be crucial to what was going to happen down in the room.

People who've played/seen the game - how many of these (now-useless) "torch mounts" are there?

 

[Ellite25]

Well from the shots I've seen with the lighting from torches and what the same areas look like without it, as other people said it looks like those areas were supposed to be pitch black and were changed. Maybe towards the end of development they got feedback that having that much darkness was no good and they had to brighten areas up and this is what we got. If some of these grey areas were darker, almost pitch black, and then lit up by those torches no one would think twice, they would just think it looks amazing.

 

[Curious_George]

Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s

Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s

So it really does seem to me like they chose to remove the pitch black aspect more than just reduce the lighting effects. In the first part of the reveal demo the only lighting source is the torch in the dark scenes, which the game still features. Even on the PS3/360 we can still get dynamic lighting from a singular torch, so it's not like that was too intensive for consoles. But what we don't have are the completely dark rooms (replaced by dullish gray instead). I can't imagine that darkness was somehow any more graphically intensive than what we have now, which leads me to believe they possibly changed it for other reasons. I really hope it wasn't because of playtesting or player complaints because it seemed like such a cool design.

 

[Ellite25]

So it seems like they have been just demoing the PC version this whole time. Essentially an industry-wide practice at this point.

If you look at the walls in the demo version and the console version you will see the specular highlights that are present in the PC version's screenshots so far. IE the shiny walls.

Makes me feel very good about the PC version, I hope it is that dark and the lighting that good.

I don't think that's the PC version. People have played stuff like that on PS3. I think they just brightened up the dark areas. Maybe they got negative feedback about it so they brightened it up. You can still use torches and get that cool lighting in the final version, you just don't need to use the torch.

 

[Grief.exe]

I'm willing to bet they listened to the complaints of "it's too dark"
That's just..sad.

Maybe they got negative feedback about it so they brightened it up.

That is very unfortunate, if this is the case. Listening to the lowest common denominator is not how they built up this fan base initially.

I can almost guarantee it was due to performance concerns. Dynamic lighting is very CPU heavy, something even the next-gen consoles aren't particularly known for.

I don't think that's the PC version. People have played stuff like that on PS3.

I haven't seen any specular highlights to that degree, but then again, I'm more or less on a media blackout.

You guys will have to be my eyes and ears on that kind of stuff.

 

[doofy102]

I do recall a few months ago that in an interview the director vaguely mentioned that there "were still arguments about how hard the game was" - for all we know this might have been about the dark/torch mechanic.

 

[Ellite25]

That is very unfortunate, if this is the case. Listening to the lowest common denominator is not how they built up this fan base initially.

I can almost guarantee it was due to performance concerns. Dynamic lighting is very CPU heavy, something even the next-gen consoles aren't particularly known for.

Could be, but the only thing that makes me disagree with you is that the lighting is still in the game when someone has a torch. They didn't nerf that.

Look at post 652, it seems to be a good example of what I'm talking about.

 

[Necromanti]

It looks like they added back the light emanating from the player in the final version (like in Dark Souls), but I don't know how much more there is to it. (So you never get complete darkness.)

 

[GodParticle]

If you watch the console version closely, he actually passes a place that is obviously meant to be lit.

Interesting. Now I'm getting kind of bummed if they such a neat mechanic out =(

 

[doofy102]

It looks like they added back the light emanating from the player in the final version (like in Dark Souls), but I don't know how much more there is to it. (So you never get complete darkness.)

It seems that the light coming from the player WAS present in the reveal trailer, but its radius in areas meant to be pitch black was only large enough so you could see your player's model for direction/control purposes. Everything else was pitch black. Now, the natural light in the retail game has a radius of over a few feet - they got rid of the ambient pitch blackness AND expanded the radius of your player's light.

 

[Grief.exe]

Could be, but the only thing that makes me disagree with you is that the lighting is still in the game when someone has a torch. They didn't nerf that.

Look at post 652, it seems to be a good example of what I'm talking about.

Yes, but if you check out Xander's impressions, whenever a torch is out the frame rate takes a massive hit.
The effect also seems to be diminished from that gameplay demo.

Interesting. Now I'm getting kind of bummed if they such a neat mechanic out =(

We can hope that I am right and the PC version still is that dark and with the dynamic lighting. The evidence is starting to point in that direction.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s

Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s

Holy shit... just holy shit right there. Looks like a generational leap in terms of graphical quality. Everything looks a whole lot worse in that second video. Zero dynamic lighting. Ugh.

So sad right now... but at least this will make the wait for the PC version a bit easier. Still, my excitement for this has dropped considerably.

So it seems like they have been just demoing the PC version this whole time. Essentially an industry-wide practice at this point.

If you look at the walls in the demo version and the console version you will see the specular highlights that are present in the PC version's screenshots so far. IE the shiny walls.

Makes me feel very good about the PC version, I hope it is that dark and the lighting that good.

We can only hope... I'm going to prepare for the worst and just assume they downgraded all builds of the game until proven otherwise.

 

[Valnen]

Holy shit... just holy shit right there. Looks like a generational leap in terms of graphical quality. Everything looks a whole lot worse in that second video.

So sad right now... but at least this will make the wait for the PC version a bit easier. Still, my excitement for this has dropped considerably.

I'm hoping there will be graphical options to be able to play the game like in the first video on the PC version but I have huge doubts. Really disappointed.