Solaire of Astora
Death by black JPN
Microsoft's cash does not equal Xbox's cash. Sure, MS may be in a better position financial overall, but they're not going to piss that away on the Xbox brand should it start failing.
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Kaz Hirai: "PS4 hardware is already profitable"
- Thread starter Spiegel
- Start date
Microsoft's cash does not equal Xbox's cash. Sure, MS may be in a better position financial overall, but they're not going to piss that away on the Xbox brand should it start failing.
ReBurn
Gold Member
Why not? It hasn't stopped them before now.
From what weve been hearing this past year, theres been quite a few people at MS who would like to sell off the games division. There was even rumors that the 360 made no money and MS was covering its losses with android royalties.
http://www.destructoid.com/analyst-microsoft-losing-2-billion-on-xbox-annually-265273.phtml
Just a few articles.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/439357/ballmer-praises-xbox-in-final-shareholder-speech/
http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/6/5686380/bill-gates-comments-on-potential-microsoft-xbox-sale
http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/8/5080192/microsoft-ceo-candidate-stephen-elop-bing-xbox-rumors
shinra-bansho
Member
Sunk costs, if you're referring to things like R&D, are relevant for discussion on whether the PS4 will make a return.
But if they're talking about the hardware being profitable on a per unit basis, then they shouldn't be factored in.
Putting things into such black and white terms is as silly as it is incorrect.
I've been an exclusive console gamer for about a decade. The questions and comment I put forth in this thread are the very reason I decided to pass on, or at least, delay my entry into this gen's console for the first time in more than 2 decades. I'm not arrogant enough to assume my opinion is fact so I find it interesting to discuss - perhaps I'm missing something.
In any case I think it's important to see that this isn't some unanimous circle jerk among "console gamers" which is the category I'd typically include myself in. Seeing this thread start off with nothing but "Woohoo.. a company's making even more money off us even faster!!! Yay!!" was kind of curious when this greed and race to profitability is a big part of the reason this generation has been incredibly luckluster for many of those who are looking at without any particular bias. Some people mentioned guaranteed performance as a benefit of consoles. That again has been true, but much more so in the past. Now many "next gen" games still feature subHD resolutions or 30fps - in some cases both. You should know that when a company goes from production to profit in a matter of months, you're cheering on that poor performance because it's the source of the big profit margins.
Wolfgang Jr
Banned
About time something they made was actually profitable.
So your issue is why didn't Sony take a -$200 hit per console to make some exotic high-TDP system? There are many factors to that, such as limitation of 28nm, lack of credible vendors (Intel/NV ain't playing ball), wretched financial status of Sony group, post-crisis economy, etc.
When we cheer, we actually consider the survival of Sony being a positive, because they are at the edge of bankruptcy.
So we will see a 199 Xbone next year if they still sell less than the Ps4?
Smh
that makes no sense, they lost so much money in their gaming business over the years.... this generation is likely to be the best one yet, I am not sure who those "many" are.
LordOfChaos
Member
They went down consistently last gen. I think each console has dedicated factories working on the DRAM, so it's different from you or I having DDR3 prices increase when DDR4 is out and mass produced, since their hired factory will keep churning away under a contract and increasing yields.
It all depends if Xbox is an strategic asset for MS, or not.
MS could do lots of things to accelerate X1 sales, in example:
* Deals with Cable Operators to offer X1 on subscription/renewal plans
* Plans like 5 years subscription to Xbox Live => Free X1
* Embed X1 with Kinect in third party TVs
In any case, its a dangerous inversion. Is MS interested on take such risk? Only Satya Nadella knows.
Forgottonone
Member
make the bone free and make us pay for live and i am sure anyone who has an online connection would pick that up
Forgottonone
Member
They can do it.. I actually liked their ideas before the 180 honestly share all your games between six friends? That's fucking awesome... oh well.. the ONLY reason a company or the Government pulls a 180 is not for the people.. they will make you think that but when the people want something shittier than what they are offering believe me, they will do the 180 and make you think they care about the consumer truth is their first offering were actually better.. than the current module and that's why this module failed..
Metalingus5150
Member
Everything you described doesn't really seem in the possibility of happening.
MS has a CEO who wants to get rid of the Xbox division. Last thing the Xbox team wants to do is bring losses to the company.
Sony has a CEO who actually gives a damn about it's gaming sector.
Lighting isn't nearly as important as textures and ps4 isn't playing anything graphically demanding at a locked 60fps 1080p so I really don't get your point there but yes my pc runs Crysis 3 just fine at 1440p. Shading and lighting are fine touches, textures and resolution are far more noticeable to me. I also don't see your point about next gen engines. Anything that runs on a ps4 will run on pc with minimal work. If you mean exclusives cool lighting won't make up for the large difference in resolution and all around IQ.
However the reason I sidestepped your point was I'm not trying to get in a dick waving contest about pc vs consoles. It's just a fact ps4 is farther behind current PC's than some of us would like and early sony profit taking shows exactly why.
SnoutBaron
Neo Member
Sony has definitely learnt something from their PS3 launch.
Having a cheaper console on launch and actually releasing worldwide(ish) quickly. Having awesome F2P's like War Thunder and Warframe doesn't hurt either.
They have to though don't they, the rest of Sony's division are doing badly, right?
Having a cheaper console on launch and actually releasing worldwide(ish) quickly. Having awesome F2P's like War Thunder and Warframe doesn't hurt either.
They have to though don't they, the rest of Sony's division are doing badly, right?
RedAssedApe
Banned
pretty delusion if you believed developers were going to let ms implement that family share plan
Solaire of Astora
Death by black JPN
Because Microsoft aren't fucking stupid. They are an extremely successful company with shareholders to please. If the Xbox becomes an anchor, they'll sell off those IP's and cut their losses. Sure, they're prepared to take a loss to a certain degree (risk vs reward), but they'll have a limit.
I'd definitely pick one up at that price... Assuming the price drops that low in Japan.
No. They have some successful divisions. For example, their insurance division and (I believe) their movie business.
I like how some people heard "family sharing" and just assumed it was just going to be awesome. Bearing in mind, they didn't go into detail about the family sharing plan, and this was back in the day when they were listing restrictions as features.
Forgottonone
Member
EA was on board from the get go... also PS plus destroys game sales and makes the ps plus games basically worthless.. soo theres that..
Forgottonone
Member
Naww meng,, so wrong they were announcing something too far ahead of it's time and as gamers are getting older they're not going to want to adapt to anything new,.. anything new is scary and makes a lot of people super freakin paranoid.. the X1 vision was perfectly fine.. always online is not a big deal ,., if servers go down go out and get a fucking life.. it's not the end of times when one hour of maintenance occurs oh well.. pity on microsoft listening to people who don't even want their products..
Solaire of Astora
Death by black JPN
Of course EA were on board. They were partly responsible for the DRM-infested vision of the future. They thought MS was going to crush PS this gen. As for PS plus, it has already been discussed here in great detail. Publishers put games on PSplus after the sales have already dropped to inconsequential levels. Often, it's a good way to sell DLC and drum up publicity for the next game in the series/from the dev. I know I've bought DLC for plus games and also sequels that I wouldn't have bought prior to playing the first game on PS Plus.
Oh, and Sony also (allegedly) kicks back a portion of Plus subscription fees to the publisher. It's really a win-win solution all round. No publisher/dev is forced to put a game on plus.
Let me guess, you signed the petition request MS to revert back to their original policies? If ahead of it's time means "we can take your games away in an instant", count me out. Oh, and the constant mixed messaging didn't help. Microsoft's vision of the future was so fucking cloudy, they were all tripping over each other, contradicting one another.
Forgottonone
Member
No I didn't sign any petition.. Mixed messaging? the message was simple and people complained believe me when the world around you moves too fast you become paranoid (kinect is watching me eat pop corn) Talking like sharing all your games with 6 people is a bad thing is bloody down right baffling.. There is no conspiracy ya'll are getting too old for technological advancements. The change will happen.. plus what's so scary about DRM?? oh actually having to buy a game to play it? A cd-rom even a floppy disc has DRM .. you're either PARANOID loonie bin material or just a hate band wagon jumper.. not you directly but the whole situation pisses me right off...
Forgottonone
Member
No I am a free forward thinking individual not a ass backwards paranoid freak..
Forgottonone
Member
and honestly all the people who say "pre-order cancelled" and oh now I am not buy this system because this.. These people have zero money and never had interest in buying anything they hate on stuff to get attention... trolling ....
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
As with the original PS3 fat (before they moved to PS3 Slim) the size of the RSX and especially the CELL was reduced, onto smaller process / node. Both chips started at 90nm and both were deduced to 65nm, as I recall. I think CELL was reduced even more while RSX stayed at 65 or 45 nm.
Same thing happened with the original fat PS2, before they went to PS2 Slim. The Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer were reduced in size several times, before the single chip EE+GS@90nm (which was not actually on a 90nm process) came along for the PS2 Slim.
I probably didn't get the number of shrinks or the nodes right, but Edit:
So I do expect PS4 to have a 20nm APU sometime in the near future, without a full PS4 hardware revision.
The beautiful thing about what you posted above is that it shows Kutaragi was already aiming at less outrageously big chips compared with PS2, if you compare die size for each CPU and GPU and the manufacturing process available as well as wafer size available. It makes me think SCE and their partners were already taking into account the slower pace new manufacturing nodes were going to be introduced at.
Well, I'll be.
Seriously dude, if you are drunk you should stop posting and certainly stop name calling before you get banned.
Solaire of Astora
Death by black JPN
Did you forget the whole part about the online check in? They couldn't get their story straight.
It would be a good thing, if there weren't restrictions involved. We don't actually know what their policies would have been, but do you honestly believe six people could have played a single copy of a game simultaneously? They never came out and said it, and if that was the case, it would have probably been some much needed good publicity.
I'm 26 years old. I'm not against technological advancements, but I am against having rights removed. And while we're on the subject, what technological advancements did the original Xbone bring to the table? A webcam that had to be plugged in at all times? An IR blaster? Outdated hardware (the ps4 is also guilty of this to a lesser extent)? Fucking AA batteries in the controllers? The power of the cloud? None of these are technological advancements.
I'm not against buying legit copies of games. Been doing it my whole life. But with a required check in comes the possibility that games that I have bought with my own money on physical media will no longer work for reasons outside of my control. That doesn't sit well with me.
I'm neither. I'm just a consumer who isn't willing to bend over and take it up the ass.
No. You're every major company's wet dream.
Galactic Barret
Member
Why does that matter, though?
Its fixed hardware, developers will only make better looking and performing games over time as they optimize their engines for the same hardware. They'll optimize over and over again, getting better gains. Thats the console ecosystem in a nutshell. Do you feel like you're being cheated out of your money? You aren't getting what you paid for? Why does it have to be leveled against PC now when PC has always been ahead of consoles?
The recent increase of PC gamer vs. Console gamer attitudes lately is confusing, it seems almost desperate. It doesn't make sense. You guys already won! Your PC runs C3 at 1440p, no problem! Why is the pettiness of console gaming such an attractive subject when you got all that?
Sidewinder
Member
Keep fighting the good fight Forgottonone!
Forgottonone
Member
I didn't label you as that.. I am sorry you took it that way. Everyone was scared of the new kinect It's cool try it out and I am sure you'd like the way it's integrated in the OS.. the OG xbox brought the best online console service available.. I wasn't on it but it looked great compared to other offerings..
Metalingus5150
Member
Kinect is boring, I don't like motion controls. Not worth 100 dollar difference. I'm glad they took it out. For what you said about DRM. It was about not being able to play your games offline. Something I should be able to do with something I payed for. Family sharing wasn't something I wanted in exchange for being able to play games offline. All of the changes made the Xbone worth considering as a purchase. Bringing games will probably make the purchase likely.
so like you then?
Major Nelson is that you?
disastermouse
Banned
SDRAM is expensive and my understanding is that the overall component itself is bigger and has lower yields because of the more complex design. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
People are not inherently against all kinds of DRM. With DRM, you have to apply the carrot before the stick. Steam is essentially DRM and what you get is an integrated platform with automatic patching, game streaming to other PC devices, family sharing, and Steam sales.
Microsoft gave us the stick with zero sign of the carrot. They announced DRM with very obvious plans to squeeze the packaged retail market dry. They offered Family Sharing but gave zero details at all. They had the mandatory Kinect without giving any reasons why you would even want one.
Yusuf Mehdi, leaked internal documents, and all of their PR made it pretty clear what they wanted to achieve with the Xbox One. The dream of a consumer media device that could collect metrics like Google and lock people into an app store like Apple. Its not particularly a progressive vision, considering the sort of media consumption devices we have today, but its a device that Microsoft doesn't have.
Microsoft gave us the stick with zero sign of the carrot. They announced DRM with very obvious plans to squeeze the packaged retail market dry. They offered Family Sharing but gave zero details at all. They had the mandatory Kinect without giving any reasons why you would even want one.
Yusuf Mehdi, leaked internal documents, and all of their PR made it pretty clear what they wanted to achieve with the Xbox One. The dream of a consumer media device that could collect metrics like Google and lock people into an app store like Apple. Its not particularly a progressive vision, considering the sort of media consumption devices we have today, but its a device that Microsoft doesn't have.
I'm wondering what is the key differentiator... since both platforms have DRMs, discount sales, auto-patching, not to mention even PC physical copies nowadays still get steamworks DRMed anyways etc.
To me, its the implementation. Like Apple or Google, there are key concerns regarding their product offerings but most people don't care since they get a lot out of it. For instance, Google definitely collects data about how you use their services but most people don't mind. Their services are generally free and are often really good.
I imagine its why Xbox Live attracts much more ridicule than PS+. Locking a fucking web browser behind a paywall is downright offensive and everyone can see its a greedy cash grab. What you have to do is not look greedy when implementing this DRM shit.
Steam gives you a whole lot of shit in the form of Steamworks DRM but most don't care. The benefits are clear. Just compare PC game sales to console sales: the discounts are far more aggressive and frequent, you have "charity sales" in the form of the Humble XXX packs, complete backwards compatibility, and sale packs where you pay $50 for like 20 respectable games.
The PS4 is a pretty powerful console. We have yet to see the architecture used the way it was meant to be used in its optimized design and we are sitting here a mere 6 months after launch and yet we are seeing some simply amazing near future releases of games that look as good as what i see on my high end PC ..granted lower resolutions and some 30fps games but i have been impressed with what i see coming and with i saw with Infamous, Killzone,etc at such an early stage of PS4.
Like i mentioned before...i am 100% confident that we have only scratched the surface in what we have seen the PS4 capabilities.
Lets just give a bit of time to the competent developers to give us true mature examples of what the hardware is capable of because as it stands right now..we have never seen a game developed to take advantage of the GPGPU benefits yet..correct me if i am wrong and as weak as the jaguar cpu and cores may be...we will also finally see games utilizing more than 4 cores as well as cpu's and gpu's working in tandem while tapping closer to the metal than current PC's are capable of. So i dont dismiss PS4's power as weak because its meant to be what it is but used in a super efficient way...a way that will produce amazing visuals that in some ways will raise the bar graphically for all platforms including PC's. I say this because it happens every generation...as it will this new generation. Pure power is not always the way...the PS4 architecture and the way the hardware was designed to work together will produce stunning achievements.
I bought my PS4 for dem exclusives, as you put it but i also bought the PS4 to show off some graphical showcases as well. Even though i always build a new cutting edge gaming PC every few years....i know what console developers can do when given new decent hardware to work with..PS4 is going to to amaze us with some of its games, that is a guarantee.
Zeuanimals
Member
Explains the weaker hardware and less 1st party studios. MS corp might have that money, but the Xbox division is seeing a very small fraction of it.
Please tell me you're trolling. This is literally the dumbest logic to apply to anything ever. Hey, who gives a shit if what you paid for doesn't work for arbitrary reasons, go the fuck outside and get a life.
GoofsterStud
Member
You realize the cable companies already declined the offer, and Comcast is very proud of their X1. Infact, a lot of people around here think you are talking about their cable box when you say X1.