• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

L Thammy

Member
TheBaronOfNA said:
Fighting generalizations with generalizations while decrying generalizations....
Click to expand...

Who gives a shit if it's a generalization. It's been demonstrated time and again that the bulk of Gamergate's activity is what that generalization states. The people flying that same flag may not intend to support that, but it's all they're actually accomplishing with their support.
 
T

TheBaronOfNA

Banned
ShockingAlberto said:
You desire so much to not be seen as an extremist that you're unable to offer anything that isn't a milquetoast, boring platitude that makes no sense even in an immediate context.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not even a GG so dunno...

HP_Wuvcraft said:
But that's literally the party line.

They want women and journalists to stop trying to make video games inclusive because they are video games.

This is in almost every single piece of GG-related literature out there.

You cannot have the main bullet in your Save Video Games Gun be "video games are not meant to be taken seriously".
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree with you... That's why I'm not a GG.
 
S

sploatee

formerly Oynox Slider
ShockingAlberto said:
One world-ending conclusion is people find the term "gamer" abhorrent and publishers no longer budget games with an assumption of endless expansion. Stuff stops getting greenlit, most things move to mobile phones and facebook, and they make their money elsewhere because the Gamergate people may be enough to drive people out of the industry, but not enough to sustain it.

The most likely thing that will happen is a lot of good indie voices will be silenced and people who want to make games will decide there's no willing audience for their interesting ideas and choose not to face the harassment.

Look at that image I posted above of the woman who says she loves video games and is reconsidering going into the industry because she wouldn't be able to take the vitriol she'd get for being born a woman and loving video games. We're going to lose those voices. The longer this goes on without being stomped out, where people pretend silence is a valid answer to people who feed off not of attention but assumed approval, the more voices we'll lose. It's easy to say that you should ignore it and not let them get you down, but I guarantee just the small amount of shit I went through would have been a million times worse if I were a woman.
Click to expand...

I'm a queer woman (although I'm pretty gender confused most days) but I work in a field at a firm which has an excellent and successful diversity and inclusiveness programme.

I wouldn't like to see the silencing of indie voices, either. Maybe I'm not as close to this as you are, but is there really a long-term threat of this happening? Surely over time this might even strengthen diversity in gaming?


CapNBritain said:
Yes, you're probably right in that this wildfire will just have to burn out on its own. On the plus side, even if the majority of people don't weigh in, I bet that there are many like me who have had their eyes opened to the current climate of the industry and the culture.

I have to go, but I wanted to say one more thing in response to



and others that feel the same way.

First, do the research. Learn what GamerGate is all about, then come back and see if you feel the same way.

And if you still do, can I ask why? From what I've read, the best thing you can say about GamerGate is that they want ethics in game journalism. How is silencing people, game journalists, bloggers, whatever, achieving this? Aren't you trying to censor their opinions? And don't try to claim that "they" are doing the same thing. People are expressing their opinions, that is all. GamerGate has a proven history of harassment over people expressing their opinions. Think about that.

And if you are against attacks, then why are you with GamerGate? Or claiming that GamerGate has a "side"? Their side is being angry at being "attacked" and at people having opinions. That is it. You don't need a hashtag for that.

I have to begin the long commute home now but I will return when I get home. I'm hoping/dreading the pages I'll have to catch up on.
Click to expand...

Your posts are good!


Can anybody here who is supportive of Gamergate give me any examples of it 'working'? I get that there are lots of Gamergate people who probably are quite sensible and want to improve journalistic ethics - where can I find the 'good stuff'? I really don't want to have to go to 8chan or reddit - I'm too old and too thin-skinned for all of that.
 
O

Orayn

Member
Polygon throwing down the gauntlet.

I especially liked this part.

Since Polygon launched in 2012, we've worked hard — thanks to the efforts of our tireless moderation team — to engender a safe space for our readers, writers and contributors. We have zero tolerance for racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia ... any type of harassment or trolling on our site, which is laid out in our written community guidelines. While we've addressed aspects of the harassment that exists around it, we've been silent on GamerGate specifically. That ends today.

Video games are changing, and it's incredible! New technology, new devices, new marketplaces, new players — this is all transforming the entire world of video gaming under our collective feet. It's growing bigger. It's becoming more inclusive. This is a win-win scenario. Did you love The Last of Us? I don't think we'd have seen a character like Ellie just five years ago. What about The Walking Dead, a game with an African-American lead and a nuanced view of race?

Video games are capital "C" Culture now. There won't be less attention, only more. There won't be less scrutiny. There certainly won't be less diversity, in the fiction of games themselves or in the demographics of their players. What we're in control of is how we respond to that expansion, as journalists, as developers, as consumers. Step one has to be a complete rejection of the tools of harassment and fear — we can't even begin to talk about the interesting stuff while people are literally scared for their lives. There can be no dialogue with a leaderless organization that both condemns and condones this behavior, depending on who's using the hashtag.
Click to expand...
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
Green Biker Dude said:
1. you're talking about a group of people there. it's like saying "gaf loves x game" and then "gaf hates x game". also, i don't think "bullying" is the appropriate word for them forcing/coercing advertisers to stop supporting x or y site. besides, what they're doing might be unethical from the perspective of it being a hate fueled movement, but that doesn't mean the attitude itself is wrong ("vote with your wallet")

2. there is a pretty big jump between being "anti feminist" and supporting death threats. i don't know what either of those people believe in, so they might just support both things, but you're lumping two completely different things together

3. "rebranding" won't change anything. anyone can "join" this. it's organized on public forums that require minimal investment to register (when they do). suppose it's renamed. then what? what's stopping the people who send death threats to join the next movement thing? it's going to be the exact same thing, except weaker. unless the advice of renaming it is attempting to just to do that. then it makes sense. but i don't think the people behind it will follow through with that
Click to expand...

Maybe this is kind of the problem when your entire movement is built off an anonymous image board that uses racial and sexual slurs and everyone is anonymous. You can't claim a populist movement and then say "But also you can't generalize all of us, it's unfair, we are al individuals who just hapened to speak with one voice until it's inconvenient."
 
B

Buzzman

Banned
You know, I really didn't like Polygon before (particularly because of Gies and Kuchera but whatever). But atleast they stand up for actual human beings that are being harassed and threatened. In the face of that, I couldn't give less of a shit about terrible piecharts.
 
Z

Zaph

Member
HP_Wuvcraft said:
Video games are set to become the next big cultural fad like geeks are now. It's sad that this sort of bullshit is at the forefront of that.
Click to expand...

Spend years trying to convince friends and family to try this amazing form of entertainment. Attempt to shake the stigma of what mainstream media and corporations have built up as the "typical gamer". Watch just as games start diversifying and barriers to entry are knocked down, the story on the front page of NYT reaffirms all those horrible clichés and portrayals of gaming as something for basement-dwelling outcasts.

If you don't laugh, you'll cry.
 
S

sploatee

formerly Oynox Slider
HP_Wuvcraft said:
Video games are set to become the next big cultural fad like geeks are now. It's sad that this sort of bullshit is at the forefront of that.
Click to expand...

I don't understand. Games have been a fad in the 70s (pong!), 80s (Atari! Nintendo!), 90s (Sonic!) and the 2000s (CoD!). Lots of games are partially a toy and have a novelty aspect to them (new tech! woo!), there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think it means games are under threat on that front.


Great Polygon op-ed. I'm not going to cancel my Bayonetta 2 pre-order, but I don't have a problem with Arthur Gies or Arthur Gies calling out something that he, personally, found objectionable.
 
G

Green Biker Dude

Banned
ShockingAlberto said:
Maybe this is kind of the problem when your entire movement is built off an anonymous image board that uses racial and sexual slurs and everyone is anonymous. You can't claim a populist movement and then say "But also you can't generalize all of us, it's unfair, we are al individuals who just hapened to speak with one voice until it's inconvenient."
Click to expand...

what? 4chan has had these movements things since it was started and although i'm not sure if they were always successful, they usually get what they want. being made up of anonymous users has never really stopped them from accomplishing anything, in other words. which isn't to say this is going to work, but for other reasons

also, it's pretty straightforward to see that any group of people will have "people for x" and "people against x", unless that's their raison d'etre. since their uniting factor is supposed to be misogyny (or gaming journalism or whatever people want to call it), their opinions on other topics are obviously not gonna be as unified as your post implied they should be. that applies to pretty much any group in the history of anything ever
 
RiccochetJ

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
TheBaronOfNA said:
Forgive me that I was not exactly thrilled to participate in a discussion where the vocal opinions of "both groups" (I agree, there is should not be sides) are people that I don't exactly think have real good opinions or good grasp on how atually manage the causes they believe in it.
Click to expand...

Yea, unfortunately that's how I'm feeling about the whole situation as well.

@ShockingAlberto, I know you are very passionate about this and I respect that, but honestly sometimes it really feels like people are yelling, "You are not against Gamergate enough for me!"

I mean earlier this week, I saw people accusing Patrick of only putting up the article on Giant Bomb after Brianna Wu called them out on TV. After it was understood that Patrick and Alex had already passionately talked about it at length during their morning show and also that article was planned all along, the next accusation I saw was that Jeff and CBSi were muzzling him.

These are people who are harassing/accusing Patrick about not doing enough. The guy who has been outspoken about all this long before Gamergate was even a thing.

So when I see that happening to him of all people? It's off putting.

Now let me be clear; I am fully against everything Gamergate stands for. The people who tweet or post under that banner who think it's solely about ethics are foolishly or willfully being ignorant to what's happening. Hell, I even think the whole "ethics" part of this whole thing is completely out of whack and, like Jeff said, "Farcical."
 
V

VibratingDonkey

Member
dawid said:
So how do you educated people out there feel about totalbiscuit after all of this?

I've always been a fan of TB and it felt important to support him in this last year of personal issues.

But this shit is just fucked when you sum it up. I'm sure he was driven by some initial amiable idea and the following stubbornness. But at some point you just got to demand some kind of responsibility. They say that nothing is unforgivable, but this last month makes even watching a TB-video feel wrong.
Click to expand...
My impression of him (and I've only seen like a few tweets) is that his whole thing with this has been focusing on the ethics and the situation for consumers, which is great. Supporting Gamergate is not. He really doesn't need to be doing that, and shouldn't.

This is all speculation, but I'm pretty sure he knows that Gamergate is absolutely terrible at raising actual valid concerns about ethics, but that's very much what he wants it to be about, so that's what he's pushing for. There is some degree of validity regarding nepotism (and audience alienation, though that's not really about ethics), but even just in the vacuum of ethics concerns, that's a tiny, petty one. Add all this other bullshit going on with Gamergate and you start looking properly out of touch if that's what you want to be talking about right now. I don't follow what he's said enough to know if that's what he's doing, or if he's aiming to move the ethics conversation along to more important topics. He was the one who told us about the Mordor brand deal. He demonstrably, genuinely cares about this stuff. Either way, supporting Gamergate does him no good.

It's like boogie and wanting to focus on condemning harassment and encouraging kindness. The basic stances of both these people is great. Keep stancing. Just don't stand alongside the stupid, appalling, ignorant, embarrassing nonsense mess that is Gamergate.

I unsubscribed and stopped watching TB's videos after he poopoo'd efforts to resist the DRM stuff. If he insists on continuing to support this hateful, impotent consumer movement, then I might stop watching his videos twice as hard.
 
B

Buzzman

Banned
RiccochetJ said:
Yea, unfortunately that's how I'm feeling about the whole situation as well.

@ShockingAlberto, I know you are very passionate about this and I respect that, but honestly sometimes it really feels like people are yelling, "You are not against Gamergate enough for me!"

I mean earlier this week, I saw people accusing Patrick of only putting up the article on Giant Bomb after Brianna Wu called them out on TV. After it was understood that Patrick and Alex had already passionately talked about it at length during their morning show and also that article was planned all along, the next accusation I saw was that Jeff and CBSi were muzzling him.

These are people are harassing/accusing Patrick about not doing enough. The guy who has been outspoken about all this long before Gamergate was even a thing.

So when I see that happening to him of all people? It's off putting.
Click to expand...

The half-problem with Patrick is that he's already brought up diversity issues previously, and that's why they want him to speak up more. I don't think they expect the same from people at Gamespot or IGN.
 
D

Dawg

Member
I'm not gonna lie.

Way back at the beginning of all of this, I had some aggressive opinions about Zoe Quinn. Felt like she did a lot of questionable things and made up stuff. You could say, back then, I didn't really mind #gamergate because they were calling her out on her supposed bullshit.

I'm not proud of it, because when you look at what the thing has become... holy shit. It's crazy. The point they're trying to make, the thing they're calling the press out for... even if they were right, it's nowhere near as bad as what they're doing. Yet a lot of people in this 'movement' still don't seem to realize this?

Shit's crazy yo.
 
E

etrain911

Member
Orayn said:
Polygon throwing down the gauntlet.

I especially liked this part.
Click to expand...

Shame, Chris doesn't write for them more often. Despite, my problems with some of their writer's writing styles and personal behavior on twitter, I do have a great deal of respect for the website's mission as a whole, and while I think there's been a bit of straying recently, this article was very much on point. While I do disagree with him about whether or not journalists should be supporting people they cover on patreon, he seems like a very classy person and it's true that the world of gaming has reached a form of "mainstream" acceptance that it didn't have when I was a kid in elementary school. And it's important that everyone feels safe and accepted within it. It feels sad that the film industry's journalists and the music industry's journalists never had to plead with their audience to stop scaring each other and screaming at each other for a hot second and just listen. And the great thing about the internet is that even if you don't care about in-depth critical analysis of the game's cultural themes and values, there's a website or a youtuber somewhere that can provide an in-depth critical analysis of the gameplay and the design in the context of "how well does this play?".
 
M

Massive Duck. C.M.

Banned
Dawg said:
I'm not gonna lie.

Way back at the beginning of all of this, I had some aggressive opinions about Zoe Quinn. Felt like she did a lot of questionable things and made up stuff. You could say, back then, I didn't really mind #gamergate because they were calling her out on her supposed bullshit.

I'm not proud of it, because when you look at what the thing has become... holy shit. It's crazy. The point they're trying to make, the thing they're calling the press out for... even if they were right, it's nowhere near as bad as what they're doing. Yet a lot of people in this 'movement' still don't seem to realize this?

Shit's crazy yo.
Click to expand...

Welcome to reality. Sometimes it's hard.

It can be difficult to divorce emotion from how we perceive things, and I'm glad you could.
 
T

TheBaronOfNA

Banned
Dawg said:
I'm not gonna lie.

Way back at the beginning of all of this, I had some aggressive opinions about Zoe Quinn. Felt like she did a lot of questionable things and made up stuff. You could say, back then, I didn't really mind #gamergate because they were calling her out on her supposed bullshit.

I'm not proud of it, because when you look at what the thing has become... holy shit. It's crazy. The point they're trying to make, the thing they're calling the press out for... even if they were right, it's nowhere near as bad as what they're doing. Yet a lot of people in this 'movement' still don't seem to realize this?

Shit's crazy yo.
Click to expand...

I think Zoe has her heart in the right place and never deserved the scorn she got because her breakup.
 
J

JackDT

Member
The whole thing from the start, where everyone is talking about Zoe Quinn instead of the journalist who supposedly wrote the non-existent review...
 
C

Corgi

Banned
Now that 3 major outlets posted pieces, should those be In a New thread so people that don't follow this thread can know?
 
M

More_Badass

Member
Orayn said:
Polygon throwing down the gauntlet.

I especially liked this part.
Click to expand...
This was a fantastic read

Holy shit @the Twitter responses. This guy is so delusional
@Polygon Reviews =/= critiques. Discussion of raw content does not demand opinionated postulating on explicit or implicit themes. #GamerGate
Click to expand...
@Polygon Decrying character with large breasts or even linking parroting articles on it isn't criticism as a discipline. #GamerGate
Click to expand...
@Polygon Hard dissection of elements with *contextual* evidence is disciplined criticism. 7.5'ing a game 'because sexism' isn't. #GamerGate
Click to expand...
@Polygon In the end, this article boils down to "we promise we care, you sexist fucks." #GamerGate
Click to expand...
 
D

Draxyle

Neo Member
TheBaronOfNA said:
I think Zoe has her heart in the right place and never deserved the scorn she got because her breakup.
Click to expand...

Followed her on twitter immediately after it all blew up, and quickly realized how much nonsense the "scandal" was. She's a legitimately cool lady who the GG people should want to have in our community.

She's been a target long before that though, for reasons I can't possibly fathom. It seems like the scandal just gave the harassers an excuse to be as terrible as possible without feeling bad about it.
 
A

Anton Sugar

Member
Seriously. I actually kinda despised Gies prior to this and while I wasn't a huge fan of Polygon, some of their exposes/editorials were great.

Their response is amazing. Good on them.
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
JackDT said:
The whole thing from the start, where everyone is talking about Zoe Quinn instead of the journalist who supposedly wrote the non-existent review...
Click to expand...
The implication, I suppose, was that men can't be blamed for having sex with women. They're expected to lie, cheat, and steal to be able to do it, so supposed journalistic malfeasance on their part isn't as bad a crime as a woman who uses her vagina to gain access to journalistic malfeasance.

And the implication of that is, how can a woman use her vagina for something when she won't use it for me?
 
G

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
frequency said:
Thank you for posting this.

I had stopped paying attention to Polygon for other reasons (the selective review updates thing and the loss of regular long form features) but Christopher Grant and Arthur Gies (having a unique voice with his Bayonetta 2 review) has won Polygon another chance with me.
Click to expand...


Anton Sugar said:
Seriously. I actually kinda despised Gies prior to this and while I wasn't a huge fan of Polygon, some of their exposes/editorials were great.

Their response is amazing. Good on them.
Click to expand...
I've seen this sentiment a lot...
NEW CONSPIRACY THEORY! Gamergate was really created by Polygon to improve public appearance. And it's working! Sinister.
 
V

VibratingDonkey

Member
Corgi said:
Now that 3 major outlets posted pieces, should those be In a New thread so people that don't follow this thread can know?
Click to expand...
A second thread on topics that are in some way connected to Gamergate is not going to happen as it puts too much of a strain on the mods.

But, unless we're gonna shut this thread down and start "#GAMERGATE: The Reckoning", then I reckon it's probably due time to update the OP with some links and stuffs. It's over a month old at this point.
 
J

jim-jam bongs

Member
Galactic Fork said:
I've seen this sentiment a lot...
NEW CONSPIRACY THEORY! Gamergate was really created by Polygon to improve public appearance. And it's working! Sinister.
Click to expand...

l1i4Ur8.gif
 
S

SmZA

Member
HP_Wuvcraft said:
Nobody knows what the fabled mission is. You'll have dozens of people saying there is a mission, GG is about ethics, but at the end of the day, they won't be able to point towards any manifesto or article at all.
Click to expand...

They do have an internal strategy document but you won't find a manifesto; they're deliberately avoiding having clear aims. I've mentioned it before.

I'd link to it but don't know how the mods would like that. It's actually really interesting and lays bare every tactic they use including by some (former) posters in this thread.

If interested I'll take a break from the dumb crap I've been doing on Twitter and go through it in detail.
 
T

tchocky

Member
Surely any so called 'moderates' have to realise GamerGate is a lost cause now. Even if they have truly convinced themselves it is about ethics they have done a terrible job of organising themselves unlike the misogynist part of GG. Any reasonable sections of the movement should have got together and come up with a specific list of concerns (beyond the broad ethics claim)and presented it to the gaming press to discuss a way forward.

The situation they are in now is a total lost cause the gaming press have come out almost completely in the last 24 hours against GG as have the mainstream press. No one is going to listen to them they haven't even been able to get places like FOX News or the Daily Mail on their side. Even sites such as Boing Boing who back up people like Julian Assange and criticise corruption have been against them since the beginning, not believing their ethics nonsense.

The only way they could have won is by convincing either the gaming press to change or get the mainstream outlets to put pressure on them. They have failed spectacularly at both now you have people like MIlo trying to convince them to keep it up and they are winning sounding increasingly like the Iraqi spokesman during the invasion a decade ago.

I'm sure the next time a game gets criticised for sexism this crap will come back just like we get comments here such as "lol game journalism" after any bad article but as a large movement with any chance of achieving change it is pretty much dead.
 
T

Tapejara

Member
That Polygon editorial is a great read. As much as people like to shit on Polygon, they're a great site with an admirable goal and I'm glad to see them condem GamerGate.
 
T

tonysidaway

Member
Buzzman said:
You know, I really didn't like Polygon before (particularly because of Gies and Kuchera but whatever). But atleast they stand up for actual human beings that are being harassed and threatened. In the face of that, I couldn't give less of a shit about terrible piecharts.
Click to expand...

Noooo! Don't mention the pie charts again! It's worse than the feminism 101 discussions and the Boogie parties.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)
NSFW Drama 74 75 76 77 78
4K
508K
Coolio McAwesome replied
Bitcoin - Unmasking Satoshi Nakamoto | Finally his real identity
12
3K
keraj37 replied
  • Locked
Favorite failed speech checks from Fallout New Vegas
0
2K
Bossking replied
  • Locked
NeoGAF - Stand and be counted
6
5K
NichM replied
  • Sticky
Buy/Sell/Trade Thread 2017 | Read the Rules in the OP | We Live For This
199 200 201 202 203
10K
3M
BorntoPlay replied
Top Bottom