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[Nanashrew]

Well when they said they were Not Your Shield, they didn't discount the possibility that they weren't being used as a shield by some one else. Just not yours.

I'm just stunned that I finally got that answer even though we've known their actions had already told us.

 

[jstripes]

"We are gamers" should be clarified to "We are what we qualify as gamers."

 

[More_Badass]

MIlo said on npr that he got a syringe in the mail. People on both sides have been doxxed.

https://twitter.com/Nero/status/513666683916255232

to pretend its not having on both sides is silly.

Seems both sides do not want to debate the topic at hand. I blame twitter..... that is where most of the junk comes from it seems. WIth the 160 limit it really doesnt lead it left to any kind of debate, just one liners.


You know for sure that stuff was found that lead polygon and couple other sites changing policy. Most it over journalist funding kickstarter or a patreon.

It just goes back to people not really wanted to have the debate in the first place. They just want to talk about the issue on "their side."

The GG people have said it multiple times and I'd have to echo them here

How do you know that person who sent the syringe or doxxed Boogie were anti-GG?

 

[L Thammy]

Haven't seen that Gamergate manifesto before. Is that an actual thing?
I like the repeated "we are alive". Why do you have to say that? We can see that. Are you reassuring yourself?

"We are gamers" should be clarified to "We are what we qualify as gamers."

Anyone who disagrees with us is not a gamer and doesn't even play video games, even if they have been playing video games for years.

 

[Tain]

breaking bad spoilers: https://twitter.com/then00b/status/525701643938299904

edit: oops too late

 

[FlyinJ]

MIlo said on npr that he got a syringe in the mail. People on both sides have been doxxed.

Something to keep in mind-

Milo is an extremely abrasive right-wing blogger who has pissed off so many different groups of people in his career, the syringe could have come from anywhere.

And given the fact that a syringe makes absolutely no sense in the context of GamerGate, I'm willing to bet it was from someone else he has attacked.

The only thing that ties it to GamerGate is the fact that it showed up around the time he turned his Sauron eye of intolerance onto the opponents of the movement. He was also actively attacking about three other progressive movements unrelated to the GamerGate fiasco at the time of it's arrival.

 

[The Technomancer]

Haven't seen that Gamergate manifesto before. Is that an actual thing?
I like the repeated "we are alive". Why do you have to say that? We can see that. Are you reassuring yourself?

Jesus christ are they still on the Alexander thing?

 

[xenist]

Inspired by GB's Extralife stream

Holy shit!

 

[Ayt]

Inspired by GB's Extralife stream

Yeah. That is very good. You should put that up on twitter.

 

[USC-fan]

I'm strongly against harassment in general and honestly this is the first time I've heard of the syringe thing, but to imply that both sides are getting equally harassed is straight-up not true. How many female gamers and journalists have been either doxxed or sent rape/death threats? At least six by my count (Zoe, Brianna, Anita, Jenn Frank, Chloe Sagal, Felicia Day), and those are the ones that chose to speak up.

Wasnt implying that its was equal. Just is happening on both sides. I think everyone would agree that any harassment is bad and shouldnt happen.

Saying one harassment is "better" than another is silly. Both are terrible and shouldnt happen. It just goes back to people dont want to have an honest debate but just shout at each other.

Yeah, you just said people against gg are just as bad as gg. That's completely ridiculous.

that was not what i was saying. If that is what i was saying i would have said it.

Milo himself will tell you that the topic at hand is 'SJWs'. And we're definitely debating those issues.

Milo got something odd in the mail. It's not the same as the death threats other people have received... and I don't say 'other people' to mean any group on any one side, but to mean 'not that asshole Milo'. Did he get a note with it? Is there anything to suggest that it was from gamers that hate him, rather than one of the many other groups that hate him? Genuine questions their, I don't know.

Maybe it was sperm. Maybe it was a gift of intravenous drugs. Who knows what it was, and it should definitely be looked at. But it wasn't a threat. Nor was it an attempt on his life.

It wasn't the same as writing to a place that he was going to talk and laying out exactly how much of a rampage you plan to go on if they host that talk.

I could understand the "SJW" being a topic of debate. As the "anti-gamegate" topic of debate is "woman" in video games.

Well he took it as a treat.

Who are the other side? Because it looks a lot like people who identify with GamerGate and everyone else. Does the opposition have their own cute hashtag, message boards and operations? If so then they're doing a lousy job getting letting people know they exist.

Well the "other side" or anti-gamergate topic of debate is woman in video games.

I dont think they need a cute hashtag. Hashtag just get hijack.

Haven't seen that Gamergate manifesto before. Is that an actual thing?
I like the repeated "we are alive". Why do you have to say that? We can see that. Are you reassuring yourself?

I believe it goes back to gamer are dead.

 

[L Thammy]

Jesus christ are they still on the Alexander thing?

To be fair, you're assuming it's current. If this is an actual Gamergate manifesto it might have been created much earlier.
But going by posts in this thread from "neutral" folk, I'd say yes. They're still whining about articles they didn't read.

I never understood the logic that both sides are equally as bad. As far as I'm concerned, one side, by it's anonymous and amorphous nature, has far more difficulty wrangling and policing abhorrent behavior.

They both have difficulty policing abhorrent behaviour, because members of one side don't care (unless it makes them look bad) and members of the other side aren't really associated with each other at all. The difference is that Gamergate flies the same banner regardless of the terrible crap it produces out - and that's most of what it produces - and so grants it greater visibility. The other side does not add to the visibility of the harassers because of their lack of association.

 

[Swifty]

I never understood the logic that both sides are equally as bad. As far as I'm concerned, one side, by it's anonymous and amorphous nature, has far more difficulty wrangling and policing abhorrent behavior.

 

[KHarvey16]

that was not what i was saying. If that is what i was saying i would have said it.

Here is the question you answered:

"People against gamergate are as bad as gamergate because......??"

 

[QuantumZebra]

I'll bite. On the current page (when I began typing this) alone there are 4 distinct memes ridiculing the notion that GG has anything to do with ethics in gaming. I will and always have conceded there are numerous trolls using the movement to do deplorable things. But instead of focusing criticism solely at the trolls, many people firmly opposed to GG ridicule anyone at all who claims they support it because they are tired with the ethical issues. And if you look back in these 400 pages of posts, I have no doubt that many people who tried to generate consensus that there is a middle ground of people who support GG but detest the trolls, will be attacked by my more than 1 person who believes their view that GG is pure evil is the only permissible view, despite the widespread consensus that there are indeed issues with games journalism that raise suspicion on occasion.

My guess, and this is only a guess, but my guess is that the same people who will ridicule anyone at all for believing there is more to GG than trolling female developers, would also object to condemning every member of a religion or political group due to the horrible actions of a few. In any event, the people who aren't trolls and really want to see reform in the games media are not going to be convinced that there suspicions are wrong just because a few websites (who they already don't trust) and commenters post memes ridiculing the notion that the media has not always been on the up and up. Instead, they are going to naturally associate with the trolls, because the trolls are the lesser of two evils to them. No matter how pious we think of ourselves, its human nature to side with the people saying, "Yep, you're right", as opposed to "You are lying", or "There's no real issues here and you really just want to harass women." or something else to that effect.

So yeah, constantly criticizing anyone who says GG involves corruption in the press is absurd. It accomplishes nothing and is doing nothing more than giving the trollish part of the movement self-perceived legitimacy it never would have had otherwise.

The ENTIRE issue with this is that gamergate was kicked off by a false report about Zoe Quinn. The entire "ethics" argument is invalid because it was grounded in a completely false slander of someone who isn't even a journalist.

 

[Raggie]

Whatever the premise it was founded on, today there are people who believe it is about ethics, and who don't condone the nonsense.

Yes, because on a first look, GamerGate sounds great --I mean, who doesn't support ethics in games journalism, right? It's just that after you dig in deeper, you'll find out that what they mean about "ethics" is that games journalists shouldn't conspire with feminazis in order to destroy the "classic gamers" and spread "feminist agenda".

In other words, it's a good ol' fashioned conspiracy crackpot theory that doesn't make any shred of sense if you try to apply some earth logic to it, but that's never been a problem to conspiracy theorists.

Unfortunately the claims that have been debunked a long time ago are still being spread around in social media, and since reading is boring and people don't often feel like investigating it further, sometimes it is just accepted as whatever it seems on the surface. I would guess that anyone with some sense would soon start to get a clue that the movement isn't exactly what the brochure said.

 

[jstripes]

Welp, Sullivan's piece went up and...sigh. Closing statement:

Look: whatever case the gamergate peeps have, they have botched it with their tactics. Those tactics have been repellent in every sense of the word. But bullying has occurred on both sides, and only one side was bullied before.

The End of Gamer Culter (beware: wall of text)

Disappointing that he dismisses Leigh Alexander and Deadspin pieces as bullying asshole liberals, and slams Sam Biddle again for his stupid tweets.

I really tried to listen to the nuance he was trying to bring to the discussion comparing co-opted gaming culture to co-opted gay culture, but man, that last sentence just blows everything out the window.

Ya, that excerpt there.

I've been bullied plenty, and I'm still anti-#GG.

 

[Sciz]

Milo himself will tell you that the topic at hand is 'SJWs'.

Just in case there's any doubt on the matter, one of his earlier pieces is an abominable attack that straight up uses the phrase "would-be social justice warriors", never mind the entire "Death threat hysteria" subsection.

 

[gogosox82]

Anyone else subscribe to the Dish by Andrew Sullivan? He's been a favorite writer of mine for years, and I'm awaiting the post he references but:


Super disappointing, but I'll hold off till I see what he has to say tomorrow. Maybe he just drops the whole journalism nonsense and focuses entirely on perceived outsiders (feminist) encroaching on established nerd turf, which is what a few of the emails he's posted to the blog the last few days have been about.

I find that Sullivan is usually like though. Some stuff he's writes on and can write about it in a smart and interesting way. Other times, it feels like he didn't put any effort into thinking about the topic before he wrote it. He will change his mind on occasion which I appreciate but its usually hit or miss with him I find. I guess this would be a miss if he's quoting Sommers.

 

[Palette Swap]

It really is, and you just know most of GG was #TeamWalt. The mere sight of Skyler probably sends them into a frothing rage.

Sorry if I'm OT but we've finally been Netflixing the show over the past few weeks, with only a few episodes left, and it's hit me several times that some people could 100% love Walt and hate Skyler and that GGers probably fit exactly that profile. So much that I searched for old GAF topics and yeah, some of the Skyler hate looked very telling TBH.

(I love the show, I think Walt's an incredible character but I can totally see how MRAs and their ilk would have a huge boner for him)

 

[USC-fan]

Here is the question you answered:

"People against gamergate are as bad as gamergate because......??"

and i answer best i could. I didnt know i need a scorecard.

No point did i say it was equal just it happening on both sides. It just goes back people rather attack each other than debate the topic at hand.

And again it goes back to twitter it is 160 limit. Twitter is built for one liners not debate.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I mean

I don't think it's unfair to not believe Milo. He's a known opportunist and liar.

 

[KHarvey16]

and i answer best i could. I didnt know i need a scorecard.

No point did i say it was equal just it happening on both sides. It just goes back people rather attack each other than debate the topic at hand.

And again it goes back to twitter it is 160 limit. Twitter is built for one liners not debate.

Read the damn question!

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Here is GG discussing the ethics of game journalism in Dreamfall chapters. Beware though, it features pictures of female characters and non-white NPCs

https://8chan.co/gg/res/270990.html

Here is my favourite comment so far, I altered some parts so I hopefully wont get banned

Fudge you guys. Your life isn't being fudging ruined. You have no idea what its like to have absolutely nothing of value in your life but your videogames* and then they make it all about tiggers and kids. Cant even take pride in your own country anymore without being fudging vilified. fudge you ragnar tornquist

*actual quote, not altered

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

This whole thing makes me so glad I'm capable of critical thinking.

I'm actually kind of sorry for people with such limited views of reality...

 

[More_Badass]

and i answer best i could. I didnt know i need a scorecard.

No point did i say it was equal just it happening on both sides. It just goes back people rather attack each other than debate the topic at hand.

And again it goes back to twitter it is 160 limit. Twitter is built for one liners not debate.

You listed two specific examples and I'd say the Milo one is suspect because he's an extreme right wing writer so that syringe could have come from any angry disgruntled person. There is no evidence in what he said or Tweeted that it was from anti-GG individuals

Has there been any other Tweets or screencaps of Tweets or comments that show that anti-GG people have acted as badly as GG people?

Here's the only other one I could find, from a dev who says he and his wife was harassed and insulted by anti-GG'ers
http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2j1sdl/long_indiedev_post_why_im_progg/

 

[Raggie]

To be fair, you're assuming it's current. If this is an actual Gamergate manifesto it might have been created much earlier.
But going by posts in this thread from "neutral" folk, I'd say yes. They're still whining about articles they didn't read.

I think they've read them fine, and that's why they are so angry. It hit too close to home. Oh, they cry about how "not all gamers are like that" but I think they already know that this isn't the point of those articles. They know the articles aren't talking about all gamers, they are talking specifically about them.

 

[Brakke]

I mean

I don't think it's unfair to not believe Milo. He's a known opportunist and liar.

The elusive triple negative!

 

[MYeager]

Well the "other side" or anti-gamergate topic of debate is woman in video games.

I dont think they need a cute hashtag. Hashtag just get hijack.

So why does does GG need a hashtag to discuss 'ethics'? How do you identify the other side, is it just anyone that disagrees with GamerGate? It's just hard for me to understand this as a two sided issue when GG doesn't clarify exactly what they're looking to change. You can't have two sides if one side doesn't have a solid stance about what they're for.

 

[FlyinJ]

You listed two specific examples and I'd say the Milo one is suspect because he's an extreme right wing writer so that syringe could have come from any angry disgruntled person. There is no evidence in what he said or Tweeted that it was from anti-GG individuals

Another aspect to the Milo "doxxing" is it was initially presented not as "anti-GGer has sent me a syringe OMG they're just as bad as GG!"

He initially used it as an example to show that "men get doxxed too, so women aren't special". He eventually turned it into implying that an anti-GG person sent it to him.

However, he never specifically says it was from and anti-GG person when mentioning the incident, he only implies it.

 

[L Thammy]

Here is GG discussing the ethics of game journalism in Dreamfall chapters. Beware though, it features pictures of female characters and non-white NPCs

https://8chan.co/gg/res/270990.html

Here is my favourite comment so far, I altered some parts so I hopefully wont get banned


*actual quote, not altered

Wow. Sure, I'm a white supremacist, but that's okay because I don't have a life. That's a really... interesting... viewpoint.
I also like how they combine Kickstarter with an antisemitic slur.

EDIT: Also, they started off with "shill" and have moved on to "false flag".

 

[FlyinJ]

Double post-

 

[axisofweevils]

A good run-down by Graham Linehan, writer of many amazing comedies - Father Ted, The IT Crowd, etc....

https://storify.com/glinner/gamergate-round-up

 

[Anton Sugar]

Ahahaha what?

I should clarify by "used to"--this was just under a decade ago (ah, my good old Google Reader "politics" feed). At that point, yeah, I'd say he was pretty progressive.

 

[FoneBone]

I should clarify by "used to"--this was just under a decade ago (ah, my good old Google Reader "politics" feed). At that point, yeah, I'd say he was pretty progressive.

Another what, because he was less progressive a decade ago. I think he was still identifying as a Republican and defending the Iraq war at that point.

 

[jstripes]

OK, so, now we're all assholes for picking on autistic people:

https://twitter.com/redlianak/status/525702732481822721

Triggered autistic people are being picked on massive media outlets and high profile people don't see that.

@OrdinaryPigeon "gamers are dead" taken literally caused a mass trigger.

As someone with an autistic step-son, and knows what happens when he's triggered, all I have to say is this is a total fucking cop-out.

 

[mo60]

OK, so, now we're all assholes for picking on autistic people:

https://twitter.com/redlianak/status/525702732481822721




As someone with an autistic step-son, and knows what happens when he's triggered, all I have to say is this is a total fucking cop-out.

People keep on making excuses to deflect criticism or trying to blame the other side for something an individual may or may have not done. It's really sad. I haven't made fun of autistic people.I live with one.

 

[Ayt]

If we were to actually hold ourselves to the standard being put forth there, we'd have to completely reinvent the English language.

 

[Menome]

I was talking about Minecraft with six/seven year-old kids today, boys and girls alike, in the classroom I'm helping out in. During that, I realised why I stand so firmly against GG and all the anti-progressive culture surrounding it. I will not have their future as game-players shaped out by anyone of that ilk.

They deserve to grow up in a gaming culture that welcomes and accommodates everybody. None of us really had that growing up and some have had to make the best of it despite the looming spectre of the 90s 'Gamer', with noticeable gains being made, especially since the turn of the century.

We are however of a generation where we finally have a real ability to be heard on "social justice" issues and it needs to be the "SJW" voice that stands out.

Spoiler

Insert Simpsons "Won't somebody please think of the children!" image here

 

[Messofanego]

Here is GG discussing the ethics of game journalism in Dreamfall chapters. Beware though, it features pictures of female characters and non-white NPCs

https://8chan.co/gg/res/270990.html

Here is my favourite comment so far, I altered some parts so I hopefully wont get banned:

"Fudge you guys. Your life isn't being fudging ruined. You have no idea what its like to have absolutely nothing of value in your life but your videogames* and then they make it all about tiggers and kids. Cant even take pride in your own country anymore without being fudging vilified. fudge you ragnar tornquist"

*actual quote, not altered

That says it all, really.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Another what, because he was less progressive a decade ago. I think he was still identifying as a Republican and defending the Iraq war at that point.

I feel like he was very progressive in a few areas. Same sex marriage, opposing torture, supporting anti-discrimination/hate crime legislature, etc.

And this was around 2006-2007. Everything I read from him then was anti-Iraq invasion and a lot of pieces in opposition to conservative support for the war. Even if it was revisionist.

This was just being subscribed to whatever publication he was writing for around the time (The Atlantic? Can't remember). He seemed pretty progressive then, at least on issues that I read.

 

[Corpekata]

Wow at that Dreamfall thing. Like I don't even get how they could be upset, the series has always had that stuff. The first game has you living at like a hippy hostel run by lesbians. What would you expect it to be like 3 games in?

 

[mo60]

I found a google doc with a ton of gamergate info, but I'm not sure if you guys can access it.
Here it is.
https://docs.google.com/a/mymacewan.ca/document/d/1R-m5FRF--CaL8_uCHtQ-r8TqS77iOZRw3WgQk4irAWU/edit

It's summarizes everything related to gamergate and a lot of the crazy conspriacy theories gamergates created.

 

[Nanashrew]

IGN commented and well.. It's about as much as you'd expect out of them =/

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/10/24/on-the-problem-of-harassment

 

[Simply Sarah]

OK, so, now we're all assholes for picking on autistic people:

https://twitter.com/redlianak/status/525702732481822721




As someone with an autistic step-son, and knows what happens when he's triggered, all I have to say is this is a total fucking cop-out.

I, uh, huh, what? *scratches her head* I've tried to look around that tweet in her feed, but I'm really not understanding the context here.

 

[FlyinJ]

I, uh, huh, what? *scratches her head* I've tried to look around that tweet in her feed, but I'm really not understanding the context here.

She's saying that autistic people read the headline of Leigh's article "Gamers are Dead" and took it literally.

She is then implying that the people that have been going crazy about it and attacking Leigh on twitter are autistic people who thought that what she said was literally true.

So, in effect, people who are making fun of GamerGate people are making fun of autistic people.

 

[freddy]

IGN commented and well.. It's about as much as you'd expect out of them =/

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/10/24/on-the-problem-of-harassment

That seems fairly reasonable to me.

 

[plagiarize]

IGN commented and well.. It's about as much as you'd expect out of them =/

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/10/24/on-the-problem-of-harassment

Ending harassment doesn’t mean silencing dissent, or rejecting calls for greater transparency and trust between publishers, the press, and the vast, varied population of gamers.

has anyone done the bolded in any significant numbers?

 

[Mumei]

I feel like he was very progressive in a few areas. Same sex marriage, opposing torture, supporting anti-discrimination/hate crime legislature, etc.

And this was around 2006-2007. Everything I read from him then was anti-Iraq invasion and a lot of pieces in opposition to conservative support for the war. Even if it was revisionist.

This was just being subscribed to whatever publication he was writing for around the time (The Atlantic? Can't remember). He seemed pretty progressive then, at least on issues that I read.

He actually opposes hate crime / anti-discrimination laws, though you are right about same sex marriage and his opposition to torture. But his support for those things are grounded in what he thinks of as conservative (think Burke, not ... Tea Party) reasoning, not liberal or progressive thinking.

For instance, on gay marriage in 1989:

There's a less elaborate argument for gay marriage: It’s good for gays. It provides role models for young gay people who, after the exhilaration of coming out, can easily lapse into short-term relationships and insecurity with no tangible goal in sight. My own guess is that most gays would embrace such a goal with as much (if not more) commitment as straights. Even in our society as it is, many lesbian relationships are virtual textbook cases of monogamous commitment. Legal gay marriage could also help bridge the gulf often found between gays and their parents. It could bring the essence of gay life—a gay couple—into the heart of the traditional straight family in a way the family can most understand and the gay offspring can most easily acknowledge. It could do as much to heal the gay-straight rift as any amount of gay rights legislation.

If these arguments sound socially conservative, that’s no accident. It’s one of the richest ironies of our society’s blind spot toward gays that essentially conservative social goals should have the appearance of being so radical. But gay marriage is not a radical step. It avoids the mess of domestic partnership; it is humane; it is conservative in the best sense of the word. It’s also practical. Given the fact that we already allow legal gay relationships, what possible social goal is advanced by framing the law to encourage these relationships to be unfaithful, undeveloped, and insecure?

 

[vcc]

She's saying that autistic people read the headline of Leigh's article "Gamers are Dead" and took it literally.

She is then implying that the people that have been going crazy about it and attacking Leigh on twitter are autistic people who thought that what she said was literally true.

So, in effect, people who are making fun of GamerGate people are making fun of autistic people.

Which implies they all have autism?

 

[Messofanego]

Wow at that Dreamfall thing. Like I don't even get how they could be upset, the series has always had that stuff. The first game has you living at like a hippy hostel run by lesbians. What would you expect it to be like 3 games in?

Right?! Like, these people must have been kids to somehow miss out on all that kind of stuff. The games go out of their ways to have progressive female protagonists. Flippin' heck, Gaygamer made an article about those two landlords.