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[Dash27]

This is kinda like when Chuck D accused Elvis of being a racist because he was mad that he "stole" black music. But Chuck got over it so maybe all the twitter fools can too.

 

[CapNBritain]

I think I've gained a lot of insight from some fantastic posts in this thread. I think one thing that really clicked for me was that if colorblindness means treating everyone without considering race, then it also means not being able to see that race plays a huge part in how society treats them and has treated them.

You're doing yourself a disservice by thinking that way about native speakers and you should try. I'm sure there are a few people like that in every culture but for the most part native speakers appreciate the effort. It's only fake if you are being fake. Genuine attempts to communicate with other people in their native language are good.

Absolutely, while my grammar is lacking. My written English is good enough for me to post in forums like this and have people understand me. However my voculary skills are severely lacking, to the frustration of people trying to communicate with me that way (for example gaming online), but most people see my effort to speak their language and put equal effort to understand me. In that I learn the language, get less self conscious and it acts as a bonding exercise, because we are both giving our best to understand each other.

Learning a new language, opens yourself to a whole new world. Don't get discouraged.

Well, I'm actually terrible at learning languages. This has been verified several times, by me. And maybe I'm just projecting when I say that I don't want to make native speakers uncomfortable. Because I sure as hell feel uncomfortable and a little patronized if someone asks me about speaking Chinese or drops random Chinese words into their speech. Typically this isn't done by someone seriously studying the language though.

 

[Winterfang]

I think I've gained a lot of insight from some fantastic posts in this thread. I think one thing that really clicked for me was that if colorblindness means treating everyone without considering race, then it also means not being able to see that race plays a huge part in how society treats them and has treated them.





Well, I'm actually terrible at learning languages. This has been verified several times, by me. And maybe I'm just projecting when I say that I don't want to make native speakers uncomfortable. Because I sure as hell feel uncomfortable and a little patronized if someone asks me about speaking Chinese or drops random Chinese words into their speech. Typically this isn't done by someone seriously studying the language though.

Try playing online with friends. Maybe a more lighthearted game. I got lots of practice in 1vs100 from Xbox Live when it was airing.

 

[royalan]

I think a lot of it is case-by-case really. Culture is something that seeps into you by living as part of it -- so if you are living in an area with a strong black culture even though you were born white, I think -- without meaning anything by it -- you would just start liking those styles more, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think what people complain about isn't that kind of cross-germination.

Appropriation is more cynical. It's adopting a culture for personal gain. The white suburban kid who lives in a McMansion who wears their bill to the side, bumps subwoofers at insane volumes in the Jetta that daddy bought him, and calls people "bitch" unironically, in a pathetic display of mimicked black masculinity -- all done in an attempt to transfer the fear people have of black men onto themselves, because that's useful in being scary and tough, without ever having to also carry the baggage that comes with that -- profiling, distrust, etc. You can object to this kind of thing on the grounds that it's phony as hell. It's bandwagon jumping -- people who like rap deciding that, from within the confines of their bedroom on the second floor of their huge house in suburban prefab neighborhood, with a window overlooking a fresh-cut lawn and a Mercedes SUV parked in the driveway, it is they who are really to speak to others about the black experience. Fuck 'em, I'm not going to go to bat and pontificate about cultural transference on behalf of those poser assholes.

I think that this story is notable because people made a mistake judging this girl as the latter. But there is definitely a time to call out people who really are that way, even though I do think on the whole it's good to give people the benefit of the doubt and let them respectfully express their heartfelt influence from cultures other than their own.

This is a great post. And it's important to note that both people in the examples you gave are free to do whatever the hell they want to do. But the rich boy trying to be "black hard" in the second paragraph will likely provoke anger more than the girl who may not be black but is expressing the culture she grew up in, because what he's doing will be seen as trivializing a culture he doesn't really understand.

 

[diamount]

What are you even talking about? That was in response to a QUESTION about whether or not a white girl is allowed to get braids. Stop.

You gave a shit answer and I'm telling you it's shit. Nobody deserves anyone an explanation for wearing something or having their hair in a particular way just because of a supposed affiliation with a particular race.

 

[The Faceless Master]

This is probably the best one. It's egged on later and implied in a previous posts by others. Even the tl;dr as mentioned before.

i responded to that Collingwood post. just saying...

 

[royalan]

You gave a shit answer and I'm telling you it's shit. Nobody deserves anyone an explanation for wearing something or having their hair in a particular way just because of a supposed affiliation with a particular race.

Clearly, you're upset, but it isn't at the content of my post. Hell, nowhere did I say or imply the bold.

A question was asked. I answered. I don't understand why you're so mad at my "shit answer" when it's basically the same thing you just said: the girl should be allowed to do what she wants to do with her hair. Just in case you're not following me, here's where I said that:

I don't think the girl is under any real obligation to change her hairstyle, just as Gwen Stefani wasn't under any real obligation to stop touring with 4 Japanese dancers that she had dress up as exaggerated harajuku girls:

Also, in case you're wondering, Gwen Stefani never stopped touring with her harajuku girls.

 

[Igo]

Racist fucks exposing themselves over some braids. Gotta love it.

Screaming cultural appropriation as you attempt to bully a child away from a hairstyle associated with your culture is beyond idiotic. What sense does it make to claim exclusive ownership over something while simultaneously struggling and fighting for that thing to be accepted outside the culture. How are increased exposure and acceptance not a huge net positive.

The fear of losing your identity and anger at your history and contribution not being properly acknowledged are understandable, but openly sharing and inviting others into your culture is clearly superior to using persecution suffered as justification to exclude. That kind of behaviour is so obviously counterproductive that I feel like i'm missing something here.

 

[The Faceless Master]

You gave a shit answer and I'm telling you it's shit. Nobody deserves anyone an explanation for wearing something or having their hair in a particular way just because of a supposed affiliation with a particular race.

is English not your first language?

 

[BlackBanditSho]

And again, I'm not talking about the little girl anymore, she can shave her head for all I care. I'm speaking WHY people complain about cultural appropriation. The answer while obvious to me is apparently lost on many people in this thread, as they write about these fictious utopias in which all groups are treated equal and complaining about cultural appropriation is stupid.

The MAIN reason any group ever complains about culture appropriation is because that group feels oppressed. If people want minority groups to stop crying about cultural appropriation the answer is simple. Stop being complacent on how America treats minority groups. If said groups were treated nearly as well as so many people's utopic visions...I doubt this thread would even exist.

The little girl did nothing wrong, the argument of hair being exclusive to one group is dumb. Now divorcing ourselves from this little girl, I'm going to explain to people why some people draw issues with something as insignificant as hairstyles. In America the metric standard of beauty has and still is straight luscious hair. It's the standard that all women are measured at. This is doubly damining toward black females as straight hair is not the natural state of black female hair. The various methods to achieve said hair is scarring and expensive. Every day that idea is reinforced to black women by TV, Music, movies, photos and all other avenues. They're often told their natural hair is "ugly and unkempt", "nappy headed" and that they would look better if they straightened it.

Many black women started embracing hair styles more suitable to their hair, and again are greeted with the same negative attitudes towards it. And for just as long as these women have been ridiculed for their hairstyles; magazines and other avenues pour on accolades when the fairer skinned females do the same thing (Bo Derek as an exampled was lauded for it and many found the style refreshing and new, despite the fact at the same time many establishments and news/media were flat out calling black women who had this hairstyle "ghetto" or "unattractive". Or a better example would be Kylie Jenner or whatever her name is when she rocked half braids or whatever and Vogue or whoever stated it was "brand new, bold, and innovative hair style" rightfully black people, females especially were upset with the statements and the magazine and much less Kylie, in fact most people gave two fucks about Kylie herself and drew issue with the magazine perpetuating the idea that white is right and black is wack.

Or a better example check out that NeoGAF thread on Lupita's hair style, many suggesting she grow it out and straigten it, and many more saying she looks like a boy and her hairstyle is ugly. That is what black women face, that is what America says to black women and their natural hair. Or check the NeoGAF thread about the young African American girl who was expelled from her school for keeping her hair natural and the school telling her to straighten it.

The issue shouldn't be with this little girl, the issue should be and is with how American media views the two groups when they do the same thing and the effect it has on members of each group in how they perceive themselves and how they perceive themselves relative to the other group. Much like you and others don't want people judging this little girl for simply doing box braids, the same needs to be applied to these twitter users. They're not representatives of black culture, yet too many people in here are making damning statements about the culture because of what a few bumfucks stated on NeoGAF and that irony is lost on these posters.

Or to make it relatable to anyone with a drop of empathy. Imagine have two sons/daughters; and they both do the same thing. You constantly praise one for it and insult/demean the other for doing the same thing...what is the expected outcome? How do you think it'll affect how they view not only his/herself and you but also the sibling who has done absolutely nothing wrong. Then you have the mother who doesn't care that this is happening. Obviously in my analogy the sibling in question would most likely realize that father is an asshole and would probably try to shine light on their sibling. This too is done in our society you see those people all the time throughout history, whites who rallied with MLK and did the million man march, those who take part in the #BlackLivesMatter movement. You also have the equivalents of mothers in our society, you know these as the "I don't see race" or "It's not happening to me so who cares" type people. And much like in society, mom and dad's voice and influence is so much more powerful than your siblings and will mark you much more deeply.

At this point, most of us aren't talking about the little girl anymore and we're now talking about American society at large (tends to happen with these threads). We've already had a number of people with the usual "Cultural appropriation is stupid because here is my utopia dream of how we treat each other in the US". and other such nonsense that really should be dismissed but we can't help but respond to such nonsense.

Again, divorce yourself from the little girl because it's no longer about her. I'm no longer talking about her, she is an anchor to none of my posts anymore. She doesn't speak for America at large much like any one black person doesn't speak for African Americans at large.

The girl can do with what she wants with her hair, no one should draw issue with that. People should redirect their anger to the massive cog that is American news, media, employment and how they they view and treat the different groups of people when they do the same thing. It is because of that different treatment that we have the cries of cultural appropriation.

A few posters have made the suggestion that blacks are segregating themselves and that they should be trying to assimilate and this is the best way...these people (bless their hearts) clearly speak from a place of either privilege (trigger word!) or ignorance (double trigger!). Black people have been trying to "assimilate" since they were brought here. Blacks are simply responding to the segregation being afflicted upon them, in order for blacks to segregate themselves you have to put forward the argument that segregation has ended....it really hasn't. Segregation ends when racism ends and racism in this country is far from over.

It was called white flight not black flight, black people have been trying to assimilate for fucking ages, too bad the majority group by large doesn't want said assimilation and passes law after law to disenfranchise, imprison and generally keep blacks in a fucked state out of hatred, fear and stupidity, and what's worse is that so many Americans are completely fine with it, and others even blame black people saying things like "earn it first". Black people have "earned" equality 600x over.

I went on a craaaazy bit of tagents but meh.

TL;DR - No one is talking about the little girl at this point, divorce yourself from her.

slow clap

 

[The Faceless Master]

Racist fucks exposing themselves over some braids. Gotta love it.

Screaming cultural appropriation as you attempt to bully a child away from a hairstyle associated with your culture is beyond idiotic. What sense does it make to claim exclusive ownership over something while simultaneously struggling and fighting for that thing to be accepted outside the culture. How are increased exposure and acceptance not a huge net positive.

The fear of losing your identity and anger at your history and contribution not being properly acknowledged are understandable, but openly sharing and inviting others into your culture is clearly superior to using persecution suffered as justification to exclude. That kind of behaviour is so obviously counterproductive that I feel like i'm missing something here.

why is one option clearly superior to the other when neither has produced adequate results?

 

[terrene]

You gave a shit answer and I'm telling you it's shit. Nobody deserves anyone an explanation for wearing something or having their hair in a particular way just because of a supposed affiliation with a particular race.

"Supposed affiliation" is off. That's just straight up erasure of the cultures that originate these things which isn't right. It may be okay to borrow sometimes, but at least acknowledge.

Also, no idea why you're being such a jerk to royalan, who has been nothing but level-headed and cogent in this thread.

 

[Trey]

Pretty much this. But why so hung up on a word though? I'm finding it hard to conflate the word with the ideologies people are attaching to it. Saying you just saw a cool hairstyle is a hell of a big difference from saying ' you don't see racial inequalities in society or a socioeconomic setting'.

I rolled my eyes when the SC basically voided parts of the voting rights act with their post racism bull. All it takes is looking at a map of voting districts to tell that isn't true.

I'm personally hung up by the term 'colorblind' due to factors best explained in Mumei's extremely relevant and helpful post on the issue, particularly this quote:

color-blind racism serves today as the ideological armor for a covert and institutionalized system in the post-civil rights era. And the beauty of this new ideology is that it aids in the maintenance of white privilege without fanfare, without naming those who it subjects and those who it rewards.

This is absolutely true, and its true genius is that it appeals to people on a fundamental and intuitive level. Because we're all created equal right? Otherwise well meaning people will empathize with this world view because it's so finely specious.

---

Yes he was. Telling people the discussion is not about the girl in the OP is policing the discussion.

Edit: And if the context matters so much, why do you think it needs to be on every page?

There's being said a couple of times that the thread isn't no longer about the girl.

I spoke to this a little earlier:

Sure.

A lot of the posts in this thread complaining about culture appropriation are fueled by reactions to these twitter posts about this young girl's hair. Nearly every poster in this thread shedding light on the subject of culture appropriation are taking great care to explain the issue in a general sense. No one is justifying the treatment this girl has faced, and she should be commended for taking the experience positively and learning the context behind her hair style. She has as much right as anyone to wear her hair how she wants.

This is why the discussion of the topic has necessarily shifted from this girl in particular into the topic of cultural appropriation as a whole, because there is little leverage with which to discuss her particular point of view. Many of these discussions center around behavior in the aggregate, which is where much of the miscommunication between the two "sides" comes from. To invoke cultural appropriation is not saying this girl or any person couldn't wear their hair in a way that is most associated with a particular culture. To invoke cultural appropriation is to explain what still occurs in our society which causes POC to be wary of situations such as these. And some people take their apprehension too far, or exploit the meta in order to hurt people. There are various motivations, but understanding the current state of affairs is important. It's extremely easy to tell people to "get over it" when it doesn't personally affect or bother you.

So, some of the replies this young girl received can be considered racist and/or prejudiced. All sorts of notions can be corrupted, all kinds of ideas can be processed and channeled through hate. No one will say this girl deserved to be called "mayo" or "white bitch" or what have you. But the discussion honestly transcends this particular instance given all the context which lead to the situation, and why some POC are sensitive to seeing their image reflected by a race associated with appropriating their culture.

 

[diamount]

Clearly, you're upset, but it isn't at the content of my post. Hell, nowhere did I say or imply the bold.

A question was asked. I answered. I don't understand why you're so mad at my "shit answer" when it's basically the same thing you just said: the girl should be allowed to do what she wants to do with her hair. Just in case you're not following me, here's where I said that:



Also, in case you're wondering, Gwen Stefani never stopped touring with her harajuku girls.

I'm not upset in the slightest. I am annoyed at the constant derailment when it comes to topics, especially from the posters with the 'us vs them' attitude.

 

[Rembrandt]

You guys are so patient to still type up responses to people not making any effort to understand.

 

[royalan]

I'm not upset in the slightest. I am annoyed at the constant derailment when it comes to topics, especially from the posters with the 'us vs them' attitude.

And again, what does this have to do with me? I never once denied this girl the right to wear her hair however she wants, nor have I constructed any "us vs. them" arguments.

 

[Derwind]

You guys are so patient to still type up responses to people not making any effort to understand.

I'm surprised its gone to 22 pages in such a short span.

 

[GYODX]

I think a lot of it is case-by-case really. Culture is something that seeps into you by living as part of it -- so if you are living in an area with a strong black culture even though you were born white, I think -- without meaning anything by it -- you would just start liking those styles more, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think what people complain about isn't that kind of cross-germination.

See, this is what I'm not so sure about. When I posted earlier about how I thought that "cultural appropriation is an utterly stupid concept", I wasn't thinking about the sort of thing you describe in your second paragraph, which makes your position sound perfectly reasonable.

When I do see that term thrown around, it has almost always been in a context like the OP's. I have no way of knowing if these people are just a loud minority; if the majority of the people pushing this term really do hold as reasonable views as you.

I don't want 'cultural appropriation' to be a thing if the former is going to be what most people are going to be complaining about.

 

[diamount]

"Supposed affiliation" is off. That's just straight up erasure of the cultures that originate these things which isn't right. It may be okay to borrow sometimes, but at least acknowledge.

Also, no idea why you're being such a jerk to royalan, who has been nothing but level-headed and cogent in this thread.

This is what I'm failing to understand. When have hairstyles ever had any cultural significance when it's not used as an excuse to racially abuse someone?

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Can anyone tell me why would anyone be attacked because of that?

I mean if thats a valid reason to attack someone, then non-Germans would constantly being attacked when they wear leather trousers and the stupid Bavarian hat.

 

[Rembrandt]

This is what I'm failing to understand. When have hairstyles ever had any cultural significance when it's not used as an excuse to racially abuse someone?

Afros in the 60s, dreads and rastas.

Can anyone tell me why would anyone be attacked because of that?

I mean if thats a valid reason to attack someone, then non-Germans would constantly being attacked when they wear leather trousers and the stupid Bavarian hat.

Just read this page. Come on, it's not hard. People have explained this once on each page and I'm really surprised they're still doing it. Stop being so eager to let people know you don't know what you're talking about and try to at least read a page of the thread.

 

[royalan]

See, this is what I'm not so sure about. When I posted earlier about how I thought that "cultural appropriation is an utterly stupid concept", I wasn't thinking about the sort of thing you describe in your second paragraph, which makes your position sound perfectly reasonable.

When I do see that term thrown around, it has almost always been in a context like the OP's. I have no way of knowing if these people are just a loud minority; if the majority of the people pushing this term really do hold as reasonable views as you.

I don't want 'cultural appropriation' to be a thing if the former is going to be what most people are going to be complaining about.

Well, the lesson to be taken here is that if you going to Twitter, you're likely going to get the hasty/reactionary/ill-formed version of pretty much every debate. It's not the place to go for a nuanced, intelligent discussion on cultural appropriation. It's like going to Youtube comments for a discussion on race. Mostly all you're going to get is stupidity on both sides.

I can just as easily tell you that I know of plenty of places and forums for discussion where thoughts on culture, the appropriation of culture, and how this white girl's harmless braids breeched those issues could be and have been had without people immediately going for "racist mayo bitch!" I mean, you're having a discussion on that level with a few GAF posters right now...

 

[killatopak]

And they said racism was one sided.

 

[royalan]

And they said racism was one sided.

...who said that?

 

[……forgetit]

And they said racism was one sided.

No one ever said that?

 

[Mumei]

Afros in the 60s, dreads and rastas.

I haven't read a whole lot about the culture and politics of black hair besides that, but it is a good place to start. Or this piece by Melissa Harris-Perry (who provides the foreword to that book!) about why black hair still matters. And this!

If you don't understand why there is sensitivity around issues of appropriation and hair after those, you're hopeless.

 

[Maddness]

And again, I'm not talking about the little girl anymore, she can shave her head for all I care. I'm speaking WHY people complain about cultural appropriation. The answer while obvious to me is apparently lost on many people in this thread, as they write about these fictious utopias in which all groups are treated equal and complaining about cultural appropriation is stupid.

The MAIN reason any group ever complains about culture appropriation is because that group feels oppressed. If people want minority groups to stop crying about cultural appropriation the answer is simple. Stop being complacent on how America treats minority groups. If said groups were treated nearly as well as so many people's utopic visions...I doubt this thread would even exist.

The little girl did nothing wrong, the argument of hair being exclusive to one group is dumb. Now divorcing ourselves from this little girl, I'm going to explain to people why some people draw issues with something as insignificant as hairstyles. In America the metric standard of beauty has and still is straight luscious hair. It's the standard that all women are measured at. This is doubly damining toward black females as straight hair is not the natural state of black female hair. The various methods to achieve said hair is scarring and expensive. Every day that idea is reinforced to black women by TV, Music, movies, photos and all other avenues. They're often told their natural hair is "ugly and unkempt", "nappy headed" and that they would look better if they straightened it.

Many black women started embracing hair styles more suitable to their hair, and again are greeted with the same negative attitudes towards it. And for just as long as these women have been ridiculed for their hairstyles; magazines and other avenues pour on accolades when the fairer skinned females do the same thing (Bo Derek as an exampled was lauded for it and many found the style refreshing and new, despite the fact at the same time many establishments and news/media were flat out calling black women who had this hairstyle "ghetto" or "unattractive". Or a better example would be Kylie Jenner or whatever her name is when she rocked half braids or whatever and Vogue or whoever stated it was "brand new, bold, and innovative hair style" rightfully black people, females especially were upset with the statements and the magazine and much less Kylie, in fact most people gave two fucks about Kylie herself and drew issue with the magazine perpetuating the idea that white is right and black is wack.

Or a better example check out that NeoGAF thread on Lupita's hair style, many suggesting she grow it out and straigten it, and many more saying she looks like a boy and her hairstyle is ugly. That is what black women face, that is what America says to black women and their natural hair. Or check the NeoGAF thread about the young African American girl who was expelled from her school for keeping her hair natural and the school telling her to straighten it.

The issue shouldn't be with this little girl, the issue should be and is with how American media views the two groups when they do the same thing and the effect it has on members of each group in how they perceive themselves and how they perceive themselves relative to the other group. Much like you and others don't want people judging this little girl for simply doing box braids, the same needs to be applied to these twitter users. They're not representatives of black culture, yet too many people in here are making damning statements about the culture because of what a few bumfucks stated on NeoGAF and that irony is lost on these posters.

Or to make it relatable to anyone with a drop of empathy. Imagine have two sons/daughters; and they both do the same thing. You constantly praise one for it and insult/demean the other for doing the same thing...what is the expected outcome? How do you think it'll affect how they view not only his/herself and you but also the sibling who has done absolutely nothing wrong. Then you have the mother who doesn't care that this is happening. Obviously in my analogy the sibling in question would most likely realize that father is an asshole and would probably try to shine light on their sibling. This too is done in our society you see those people all the time throughout history, whites who rallied with MLK and did the million man march, those who take part in the #BlackLivesMatter movement. You also have the equivalents of mothers in our society, you know these as the "I don't see race" or "It's not happening to me so who cares" type people. And much like in society, mom and dad's voice and influence is so much more powerful than your siblings and will mark you much more deeply.

At this point, most of us aren't talking about the little girl anymore and we're now talking about American society at large (tends to happen with these threads). We've already had a number of people with the usual "Cultural appropriation is stupid because here is my utopia dream of how we treat each other in the US". and other such nonsense that really should be dismissed but we can't help but respond to such nonsense.

Again, divorce yourself from the little girl because it's no longer about her. I'm no longer talking about her, she is an anchor to none of my posts anymore. She doesn't speak for America at large much like any one black person doesn't speak for African Americans at large.

The girl can do with what she wants with her hair, no one should draw issue with that. People should redirect their anger to the massive cog that is American news, media, employment and how they they view and treat the different groups of people when they do the same thing. It is because of that different treatment that we have the cries of cultural appropriation.

A few posters have made the suggestion that blacks are segregating themselves and that they should be trying to assimilate and this is the best way...these people (bless their hearts) clearly speak from a place of either privilege (trigger word!) or ignorance (double trigger!). Black people have been trying to "assimilate" since they were brought here. Blacks are simply responding to the segregation being afflicted upon them, in order for blacks to segregate themselves you have to put forward the argument that segregation has ended....it really hasn't. Segregation ends when racism ends and racism in this country is far from over.

It was called white flight not black flight, black people have been trying to assimilate for fucking ages, too bad the majority group by large doesn't want said assimilation and passes law after law to disenfranchise, imprison and generally keep blacks in a fucked state out of hatred, fear and stupidity, and what's worse is that so many Americans are completely fine with it, and others even blame black people saying things like "earn it first". Black people have "earned" equality 600x over.

I went on a craaaazy bit of tagents but meh.

TL;DR - No one is talking about the little girl at this point, divorce yourself from her.

I don't think you could ask for a better explanation of the situation. Well said.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Just read this page. Come on, it's not hard. People have explained this once on each page and I'm really surprised they're still doing it. Stop being so eager to let people know you don't know what you're talking about and try to at least read a page of the thread.

I read 2-3 pages but still dont get it. I mean maybe because I am European and I do not have a clue what "black culture" is, but this hairstyle is not that uncommon in Germany and I never saw anyone being attacked for that.

And if someone likes the hairstyle why not wear it? It doesnt seem like some kind of blackface. The comments in the OP also dont really seem intelligent to me. Especially getting riled up about something trivial as some hairstyle. "Its my culture" and things like that sound ridiculous.

 

[Angelus Errare]

And they said racism was one sided.

Said no one ever.

 

[Rembrandt]

I haven't read a whole lot about the culture and politics of black hair besides that, but it is a good place to start. Or this piece by Melissa Harris-Perry (who provides the foreword to that book!) about why black hair still matters. And this!

If you don't understand why there is sensitivity around issues of appropriation and hair after those, you're hopeless.

Nice, I'll be sure to check those videos out. You're always so informative and it's much appreciated.

I read 2-3 pages but still dont get it. I mean maybe because I am European and I do not have a clue what "black culture" is, but this hairstyle is not that uncommon in Germany and I never saw anyone being attacked for that.

And if someone likes the hairstyle why not wear it? It doesnt seem like some kind of blackface. The comments in the OP also dont really seem intelligent to me. Especially getting riled up about something trivial as some hairstyle. "Its my culture" and things like that sound ridiculous.

Did you read Angelus' post above yours? And Mumei posted videos and a book that should explain more.

 

[Trey]

And they said racism was one sided.

It's not. But this is a weird hill to plant your flag on.

Out of the mere 7 tweets referenced in the OP, only 2 directly reference this little girl. The other five speak to why black women don't generally like when whites take on their image.

So if you want to balance the above against centuries of dogma specifically created to enslave, debase, destroy, demean, exploit and pervert an entire people, that's your jam shorty.

It's kind of why I've been slightly annoyed with this thread since it began: so many drive by posts saying something to the effect of what I'm replying to, or chiming in that this is a disgusting display. What is disgusting, in particular? What about this PC culture just riles you up so much? These people just need to get over cultural appropriation? Who are you to tell them that? Do you even understand the issue?

The OP insufficiently represents the scale of this issue, I have to believe, while the topic title gives the impression that this girl was really put through the gauntlet. If you want to condemn the use of mayo as a racial epithet against whites, no one will argue with you.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Did you read Angelus' post above yours? And Mumei posted videos and a book that should explain more.

Yeah. And I think this part:

The girl can do with what she wants with her hair, no one should draw issue with that. People should redirect their anger to the massive cog that is American news, media, employment and how they they view and treat the different groups of people when they do the same thing. It is because of that different treatment that we have the cries of cultural appropriation.

is the best part of that.
Cant check the video though since I am in China and dont have a VPN at work.

 

[Derwind]

I read 2-3 pages but still dont get it. I mean maybe because I am European and I do not have a clue what "black culture" is, but this hairstyle is not that uncommon in Germany and I never saw anyone being attacked for that.

And if someone likes the hairstyle why not wear it? It doesnt seem like some kind of blackface. The comments in the OP also dont really seem intelligent to me. Especially getting riled up about something trivial as some hairstyle. "Its my culture" and things like that sound ridiculous.

Its not about controlling what or how people wear themselves. Its about understanding that the same natural hairstyles on a black woman is not socially acceptable unless a white woman tries them out and its still exclusive to the white experience.

Maybe if society could say not derride black women wearing their hair in natural styles that have been worn for centuries on other black women, maybe there wouldn't be a discussion.

And there have already been others who expressed this sentiment far more eloquently than I ever could. So I'd try at least to read their posts inits entireity.

 

[Hero Prinny]

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SONNNNN they called her mayo, thats funny yo. Nah but its just a hairstyle, get over it. black people don't "own" it. what kind of racist shit is that to say any culture "owns" something, especially something as trivial as a hairstyle. besides, it looks really nice on her. haters gonna hate. if i was her i would've just told everyone to smd.

 

[Floridian]

I haven't read a whole lot about the culture and politics of black hair besides that, but it is a good place to start. Or this piece by Melissa Harris-Perry (who provides the foreword to that book!) about why black hair still matters. And this!

If you don't understand why there is sensitivity around issues of appropriation and hair after those, you're hopeless.

My parents have that book, but i've never bothered on reading it. Maybe i'll check it out sometime when I have the time.

 

[Mumei]

Said no one ever.

No one ever said that?

...who said that?

You haven't heard that argument before? You can find it in anti-racist advocacy sometimes, like here:

Racism: For Whites Only?

Frequently someone will say, "You keep talking about White people. People of color can be racist, too." I once asked a White teacher what it would mean to her if a student or parent of color accused her of being racist. She said she would feel as though she had been punched in the stomach or called a "low-life scum." She is not alone in this feeling. The word racist holds a lot of emotional power. For many White people, to be called racist is the ultimate insult. The idea that this term might only be applied to Whites becomes highly problematic for after all, can't people of color be "low-life scum" too?

Of course, people of any racial group can hold hateful attitudes and behave in racially dscriminatory and bigoted ways. We can all cite examples of horrible hate crimes which have been perpetrated by people of color as well as Whites. Hateful behavior is hateful behavior no matter who does it. But when I am asked, "Can people of color be racist?" I reply, "The answer depends on your definition of racism." If one defines racism as racial prejudice, the answer is yes. People of color can and do have racial prejudices. However, if one defines racism as a system of advantage based on race, the answer is no. People of color are not racist because they do not systematically benefit from racism. And equally important, there is no systematic cultural and institutional support or sanction for the racial bigotry of people of color. In my view, reserving the term racist only for behaviors commited by Whites in the context of a White-dominated society is a way of acknowledging the ever-present power differential afforded by Whites by the culture and institutions that make up the system of advantage and continue to reinforce notions of White superiority. (Using the same logic, I reserve the word sexist for men. Though women can and do have gender-based prejudices, only men systematically benefit from sexism.)

Despite my best efforts to explain my thinking on this point, there are some who will be troubled, perhaps even incensed, by response. To call the racially motivated acts of a person of color acts of racial bigotry and to describe similar acts commited by Whites as racist will make no sense to some people, including some people of color. To those, I will respectfully say, "We can agree to disagree." At the moments like these, it is not agreement that is essential, but clarity. Even if you don't like the definition of racism I am using, hopefully you are now clear about what it is. If I also understand how you are using the term, our conversation can continue - despite our disagreement.

From "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?": A Psychologist Explains the Development of Racial Identity.

It's the essentially an attempt to differentiate - in the context of race relations in the Unitd States - between the "racism" that white people might experience (personal, individualized, unsupported by larger structural or institutional forces - think something like anti-white hate crimes) and the "racism" that black people might experience (both personal and institutional / structural, with the two having a sort of synergistic effect). There are some people (like Beverly Daniel Tatum) who attempt to differentiate between the two by calling one "racism" and the other "prejudice."

I tried making this argument ... once, and realized that it's sort of a fruitless argument to be having since simply arguing that there's a qualitative difference between the racism that black people and white people might experience is enough without getting into the mud of, "What do you mean black people can't be racist against white people?!"

But he's not pulling it out of thin air, anyway.

 

[Rembrandt]

Yeah. And I think this part:



is the best part of that.
Cant check the video though since I am in China and dont have a VPN at work.

Nobody is saying otherwise. Nobody in here is defending those tweets or attacks. We're talking about the intentions behind them and this has been explained several times. You're actively trying not to understand our viewpoints of the situation.

 

[talisayNon]

Disgusting, the girl is 12. People need to get lives.

 

[CapHarlock]

That hair is not really that uncommon for goths as well. Below Cruxshadow's Johanna, one of my favs. There are many more

 

[royalan]

That hair is not really that uncommon for goths as well. Below Cruxshadow's Johanna, one of my favs. There are many more

That's not the same hairstyle.

You haven't heard that argument before? You can find it in anti-racist advocacy sometimes, like here:




From "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?": A Psychologist Explains the Development of Racial Identity.

It's the essentially an attempt to differentiate - in the context of race relations in the Unitd States - between the "racism" that white people might experience (personal, individualized, unsupported by larger structural or institutional forces - think something like anti-white hate crimes) and the "racism" that black people might experience (both personal and institutional / structural, with the two having a sort of synergistic effect). There are some people (like Beverly Daniel Tatum) who attempt to differentiate between the two by calling one "racism" and the other "prejudice."

I tried making this argument ... once, and realized that it's sort of a fruitless argument to be having since simply arguing that there's a qualitative difference between the racism that black people and white people might experience is enough without getting into the mud of, "What do you mean black people can't be racist against white people?!"

But he's not pulling it out of thin air, anyway.

I figured that poster was referencing a misunderstood form of this idea.

 

[Jack Remington]

The braids in question:

twitter reaction:



She even apologized:

I haven't seen many white girls with braids. But I personally don't see anything wrong with it.

This is real life?

Not a parody article?

 

[Nephtis]

If the issue is no longer about the girl being bullied, then perhaps the thread should be closed. This reminds me of Royalan's thead - GAF, do you think this is unintentional racism, or thoughtful parenting?

If we were to divorce the girl in the OP with the discussion that is ongoing, perhaps that thread would be the better place for it.

It's just an observation though. I'm honestly just tired of seeing people shove each other into a certain camp - while it's good to provide an explanation why it may be a sensitive topic to some (even though I personally disagree with it), there is no need to be condescending or accusatory when addressing others.

[edit] Also, people who are dismissive of others for talking about what went on in the OP, or saying things like "you should read the thread!" are being utterly ridiculous. If you're gonna take the time to tell people to read all what, 22 pages now? of back-and-forth (I mean, c'mon, 22 pages, fuck that), at least have the decency to just throw a link to some highlights.

 

[Deified Data]

Personally I wouldn't walk into a thread about male on female domestic violence and argue "men are acting on a history of ingrained cultural norms, and that while it doesn't excuse their actions, it does help explain them. The woman is in no way wrong here, but perhaps if some women were more sensitive to the needs and emotions of men this sort of thing would happen less".

Because that would be ridiculous. Of course it could be argued that the two scenarios are night and day, but not without admitting that you're trying to justify the assault on some level. "I'm not saying this is in any way justified buuuut..."

 

[SamuelSupreme]

Black lives matter!

Box braids matter!

Seriously, don't try to undermine the movement that's fighting for equality.


OP: Shit's getting out of hand

 

[Dreams-Visions]

looks like angelus and the usual suspects are doing god's work.

i need not weight in, then. carry on, soldiers.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Kid was way nicer about the whole mess than the grown women dogging her deserved

 

[Rembrandt]

If the issue is no longer about the girl being bullied, then perhaps the thread should be closed. This reminds me of Royalan's thead - GAF, do you think this is unintentional racism, or thoughtful parenting?

If we were to divorce the girl in the OP with the discussion that is ongoing, perhaps that thread would be the better place for it.

It's just an observation though. I'm honestly just tired of seeing people shove each other into a certain camp - while it's good to provide an explanation why it may be a sensitive topic to some (even though I personally disagree with it), there is no need to be condescending or accusatory when addressing others.

[edit] Also, people who are dismissive of others for talking about what went on in the OP, or saying things like "you should read the thread!" are being utterly ridiculous. If you're gonna take the time to tell people to read all what, 22 pages now? of back-and-forth (I mean, c'mon, 22 pages, fuck that), at least have the decency to just throw a link to some highlights.

It doesn't require reading every page because the same posts are getting quoted at least once a page. If you can't even read a page of this, then maybe you shouldn't chime in.

Personally I wouldn't walk into a thread about male on female domestic violence and argue "men are acting on a history of ingrained cultural norms, and that while it doesn't excuse their actions, it does help explain them. The woman is in no way wrong here, but perhaps if some women were more sensitive to the needs and emotions of men this sort of thing would happen less".

Because that would be ridiculous. Of course it could be argued that the two scenarios are night and day, but not without admitting that you're trying to justify the assault on some level. "I'm not saying this is in any way justified buuuut..."

Lmao, yeah, this is really comparable to domestic violence.

 

[royalan]

Personally I wouldn't walk into a thread about male on female domestic violence and argue "men are acting on a history of ingrained cultural norms, and that while it doesn't excuse their actions, it does help explain them. The woman is in no way wrong here, but perhaps if some women were more sensitive to the needs and emotions of men this sort of thing would happen less".

Because that would be ridiculous. Of course it could be argued that the two scenarios are night and day, but not without admitting that you're trying to justify the assault on some level. "I'm not saying this is in any way justified buuuut..."

Well, I imagine before you got anywhere with this, you'd have to begin to explain those "ingrained cultural norms" that state that men beating women is socially acceptable, and how this is ingrained in every man, apparently.

On no level does this analogy work.

 

[C4Lukins]

Poor girl.

It is a bad look despite color, but her feeling the need to apologize after seeing all of those rancid comments is more sad.

She handled it well, but really the critics of her hair choice were not worthy of such a respectful response. She should have gone with fuck you all.

 

[Nephtis]

It doesn't require reading every page because the same posts are getting quoted at least once a page. If you can't even read a page of this, then maybe you shouldn't chime in.

You're right, it doesn't require reading every page, but it's been thrown around. Like, you shouldn't post if you haven't read the whole thread or, people shouldn't have posting rights until at least half the thread has been read, etc