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[Vizzeh]

When Stalin was alive the USSR wouldn't need to do that, it would be in a position of material and numerical superiority (roughly on par technologically) and thus on the offensive. It could very possibly have driven NATO into the Atlantic by the end of the first campaign season. Dropping A-bombs would probably be necessary to stop this from occurring.

OTOH if Stalin was in charge of Russia today, digging in at the Urals and waiting for winter isn't really a viable strategy. The technological landscape of today is very different to what it was in his day, and Russia has changed in general. Russia has been subject to negative population growth, and lost Ukraine, the Baltics, Belarus, Kazakhstan and the central Asian republics. It's <150 million people now, which is fewer than it had during WWII (~170mln on the eve of WWII). NATO is ~900 million people now. It is outmatched numerically, technologically, and financially. Stalling for time is only favorable to Russia if Russia can build a military sufficiently powerful to actually win. Stalling for time would, in reality, let NATO fully re-arm and drown Russia in a sea of war material the likes of which the world has never seen.

This is all moot, of course, since various NATO countries and Russia both possess significant nuclear arsenals, and they would not risk open war with each other for fear of this. And even if that wasn't true, nobody has the stomach for a major war at the moment anyway.

What happens if we factor in nuclear weapons? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons#Statistics_and_force_configuration

According to that, Russia, by far outnumbers every other country by a ridiculous amount in the EU, wouldn't Putin basically be able to level Europe without much resistance as I would presume the US are possible too far away to cause "as" much damage as they would like too.

Other thing to consider would be china, India and N.Korea for example. I think I read not long ago that india acknowledged their support, they have some serious man-power, then there is china, recently been doing military drills in co-operation with the Russians.

Are we convinced it would soley be West v Russian alone, or could it escalate into a war, that could pretty much end the planet.

 

[Oriel]

What happens if we factor in nuclear weapons? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons#Statistics_and_force_configuration

According to that, Russia, by far outnumbers every other country by a ridiculous amount in the EU, wouldn't Putin basically be able to level Europe without much resistance as I would presume the US are possible too far away to cause "as" much damage as they would like too.

Other thing to consider would be china, India and N.Korea for example. I think I read not long ago that india acknowledged their support, they have some serious man-power, then there is china, recently been doing military drills in co-operation with the Russians.

Are we convinced it would soley be West v Russian alone, or could it escalate into a war, that could pretty much end the planet.

There is no military alliance between Russia and India/China. SCO is merely a regional security forum, it's nothing like NATO. If war (god forbid) ever broke out between NATO and Russia there would be obligation for China to intervene. India even less so as it actually has quite strong ties with the West.

Take nukes out of the equation and the West would steamroll across Russia.

 

[Guileless]

That's kind of the point. The idea is laughable, which is why it is amusing when anyone on the Russian side takes it seriously.

I'd bet on the Cubs to 8-peat before I bet on NATO invading Russia. This must be analogous to how in the 80s the CIA and academic experts had no idea the Soviet Union was about to implode.

 

[Mully]

Yahoo: Poland Kicks Off Unprecedented Military Spending Spree

Warsaw (AFP) - Looking east to the bloody conflict gripping Ukraine, NATO-member Poland has kicked off an unprecedented military spending spree worth billions to overhaul its forces as Warsaw believes peace in Europe is no longer a given.

The escalation of tensions with Russia over its annexation of Ukraine's Crimean peninsula and subsequent role in the crisis in that country's east has sounded the alarm on NATO's eastern flank in countries that were under Moscow's thumb during the Cold War.

Russia has also rattled its neighbours by repeatedly testing their air defences. NATO intercepted nuclear-capable Russian bombers and other warplanes in European airspace on more than 100 occasions last year, three times more than in 2013.

Even though a Ukraine ceasefire deal was hammered out this past week in Minsk by Paris, Berlin, Moscow and Kiev, the risk of the conflict heating up remains, Polish officials believe.

More at the link.

 

[Xando]

What happens if we factor in nuclear weapons? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons#Statistics_and_force_configuration

Everyone dies because russia nukes europe, europe nukes russia, the US nukes russia and russia nukes the us.
Don't forget russia, the us and some europeans have subs with nukes patrolling on their coasts.

Other thing to consider would be china, India and N.Korea for example. I think I read not long ago that india acknowledged their support, they have some serious man-power, then there is china, recently been doing military drills in co-operation with the Russians.

Are we convinced it would soley be West v Russian alone, or could it escalate into a war, that could pretty much end the planet.

War against the west would be economic suicide for china and india which most likely would cause massive social riots. India and china are far too dependant on the west to fight them (even talking about bringing millions of troops to europe is nearly impossible). Russia without nukes would get it's ass kicked by Nato, probably even the EU.
Cyber and financial attacks combined with technological superiority is too big to overcome.

 

[kess]

Yahoo: Poland Kicks Off Unprecedented Military Spending Spree



More at the link.

Elsewhere

Russia has spent a record amount on defense in January

The sharp jump in the cost was associated with large-scale spending on defense. For a month the government has spent on these purposes 710 billion rubles, or 21.7% of the amount allocated for the year.

spreadsheet here

 

[Konka]

What happens if we factor in nuclear weapons? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons#Statistics_and_force_configuration

According to that, Russia, by far outnumbers every other country by a ridiculous amount in the EU, wouldn't Putin basically be able to level Europe without much resistance as I would presume the US are possible too far away to cause "as" much damage as they would like too.

Other thing to consider would be china, India and N.Korea for example. I think I read not long ago that india acknowledged their support, they have some serious man-power, then there is china, recently been doing military drills in co-operation with the Russians.

Are we convinced it would soley be West v Russian alone, or could it escalate into a war, that could pretty much end the planet.

The US and Russia both have enough Nukes to end the world. There are diminishing returns at a point where more nukes don't matter. You know that entire Cold War thing happened...

 

[Fiktion]

So according to popular Russian news media/propaganda tool LifeNews, the "militia" are saving the civilians of Debaltseve from "drunken dancing negros" with tanks looting their homes.

This is too good. There needs to be a thread on this.

 

[Engell]

So apparently the Russians are shooting mortars after TV Crews for fun and giggles.(but guess that should not be a surprise when they even do it against themselves)
Could also be that they are trying to prevent the reporters from going inside and finding the dead Ukrainian soldiers, that are dead with their hands tied. Something they had no trouble showing on Russian TV.

BBC: Fleeing artillery fire during ceasefire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bVF7U8stRIU

 

[MysticX]

What happens if we factor in nuclear weapons? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons#Statistics_and_force_configuration

According to that, Russia, by far outnumbers every other country by a ridiculous amount in the EU, wouldn't Putin basically be able to level Europe without much resistance as I would presume the US are possible too far away to cause "as" much damage as they would like too.

Other thing to consider would be china, India and N.Korea for example. I think I read not long ago that india acknowledged their support, they have some serious man-power, then there is china, recently been doing military drills in co-operation with the Russians.

Are we convinced it would soley be West v Russian alone, or could it escalate into a war, that could pretty much end the planet.

lol, if you add in the nukes, the world will end...even though russia´s arsenal may be the biggest it won´t matter. the amount of nukes in the world is so ridiculously that it could end the world I dunno 10 times over or more.

so russia nukes eu, eu/us nukes russia, russia´s perimeter kicks in and empties it´s arsenal, usa does the same....noone survives

and china only thinks about china, and there is also that economic thing that china owns most of usa´s debt which would mean they would loose a hell of a lot of money and if india would consider going into attack mode then I wouldn´t be surprised that pakistan would use the chance and declare full scale war against india

 

[Nivash]

Dragging up China and India is rather pointless because even if they wanted to join in (and they don't, for the record) they lack the power projection to do anything outside their immediate territory. China could invade Taiwan, but that's about it. They can't even touch Japan yet because of their navy still being lackluster compared to the JMSDF. India is even worse off. They could maybe hit Pakistan but the nukes in play over there would probably be enough of a deterrent.

And as for the chance of NATO invading Russia: of course that's not on the table. It never really was, even during the Cold War. The problem is that the Russians appear to honestly believe there's a risk. It's not just propaganda. The way it's continously brought up and the way it affects Russian policies strongly point to it being a genuine fear. They're paranoid and we need to take that into account in our response if we want to avoid this escalating out of control.

 

[chadskin]

FWIW:

MarQs__: BBC: Pro-Russian rebels say they have taken control of large parts of key town of Debaltseve in east #Ukraine http://t.co/wHIzxuCtAE

https://twitter.com/marqs__/status/567647752256241664

GorseFires: For what it's worth, TASS (Kremlin) report "Donbas fighters control Debaltseve railway terminal, eastern outskirts — defense ministry"

https://twitter.com/gorsefires/status/567647663299239936

BenjaminBidder: Interfax has it, too: Rebell-commander Bassurin: "Peoples Republic Donezk" army took 80% of #Debaltseve http://t.co/tqYDdKStFW (ru) #Ukraine

https://twitter.com/benjaminbidder/status/567656378475741184

 

[Oriel]

Yahoo: Poland Kicks Off Unprecedented Military Spending Spree



More at the link.

Given how many times Poland has had its ass kicked by hostile neighbours it's not all that surprising they are tooling up now. They know what it's like to live under Russian occupation, and are among the most vocal in warning of Putin's aggression in Eastern Europe. Such a shame weakling, "letsgetalong" leaders in Western Europe aren't paying attention. They think by appeasing Putin peace can be maintained and we can all go back to being best buddies. Such an attitude is a recipe for disaster.

 

[lenos16]

Given how many times Poland has had its ass kicked by hostile neighbours it's not all that surprising they are tooling up now. They know what it's like to live under Russian occupation, and are among the most vocal in warning of Putin's aggression in Eastern Europe. Such a shame weakling, "letsgetalong" leaders in Western Europe aren't paying attention. They think by appeasing Putin peace can be maintained and we can all go back to being best buddies. Such an attitude is a recipe for disaster.

And your solution would be to either agitate Russia into a full out war with Ukraine, either through increased economic sanctions or actual troops? This doesn't even sound like a good idea on paper.

 

[Engell]

And your solution would be to either agitate Russia into a full out war with Ukraine, either through increased economic sanctions or actual troops? This doesn't even sound like a good idea on paper.

or alternatively we could just let them invade what ever country they want to, because that's an awesome plan as well.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

So apparently the Russians are shooting mortars after TV Crews for fun and giggles.(but guess that should not be a surprise when they even do it against themselves)
Could also be that they are trying to prevent the reporters from going inside and finding the dead Ukrainian soldiers, that are dead with their hands tied. Something they had no trouble showing on Russian TV.

On last night's Channel 4 News, the separatists took the C4 reporter to the airport and showed him dead Ukrainian soldiers with tied hands. Seemed a bit unclear what point they were trying to make since they basically admitted to executing prisoners.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I mentioned it in a previous post - I'm not sure why the UAF keeps getting stuck in kettles.

Because they're a beaten army just going through the motions at this point. Their best troops (regulars) are all dead, and their most enthusiastic (far right) recently had an airport collapsed on their heads.

 

[Kabouter]

Because they're a beaten army just going through the motions at this point. Their best troops (regulars) are all dead, and their most enthusiastic (far right) recently had an airport collapsed on their heads.

Unfortunately pretty much true from what I can tell. I think Ukraine's about to lose themselves some more territory to Russia. Well, either that or it'll be in limbo like all those other breakaway territories Russia has facilitated.

 

[EUA]

Unfortunately pretty much true from what I can tell. I think Ukraine's about to lose themselves some more territory to Russia. Well, either that or it'll be in limbo like all those other breakaway territories Russia has facilitated.

Not true at all. Our best forces are still there: 95th brigade, 79th, 3rd polk spetsnaz and so on, batallions Donbass, Azov, Dnipro, they are all fighting. As to why we keep getting surrounded and losing territories, many blame (experts and soldiers) the chief of General Staff and commander of army Viktor Muzhenko. They say hes responsible for Ilovaisk tragedy, Airport failure and so on. Why he is still in charge i got no idea.

 

[Tommyhawk]

A study suggests that Russian artillery (on Russian ground) fired upon Ukrainian troops and positions (yes I know, shocking news):

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ians-from-within-its-own-territory-says-study

And here is the complete study:

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-conte...igin_of_artillery_attacks_02-12-15_final1.pdf

 

[Nivash]

A study suggests that Russian artillery (on Russian ground) fired upon Ukrainian troops and positions (yes I know, shocking news):

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ians-from-within-its-own-territory-says-study

And here is the complete study:

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-conte...igin_of_artillery_attacks_02-12-15_final1.pdf

They're actually referring to Bellingcat as "British investigative journalists" - that's pretty awesome! They've come a long way in a really short while. Well deserved too, they've been beating the old media hands-down for some time now. I remember following Brown Moses' updates on Libya back in the day on Something Awful (I assume it's the same guy). It's great to see him and the rest of the team get some well-earned recognition.

 

[Oriel]

And your solution would be to either agitate Russia into a full out war with Ukraine, either through increased economic sanctions or actual troops? This doesn't even sound like a good idea on paper.

Agitate Russia? Go away you appeasnik. All the West has been doing up until now has been placating Russia and tip-toeing around Putin, trying not to "agitate" him. And guess what, the very opposite has happened. Entire regions of Ukraine are under Russian occupation with the country now at war with its neighbour. Increased sanctions against Russia and military support in the form of modern offensive weaponry for Ukraine are now the only logical next steps.

 

[Oriel]

Depressing:

Russian forces moving into central Debaltseve:

Ceasefire dead. Time to ramp up the sanctions and arm the Yukies to the teeth.

 

[chadskin]

Ceasefire dead. Time to ramp up the sanctions and arm the Yukies to the teeth.

I sincerely hope the silence from Merkel/Hollande/Obama at the moment is because they're in the process of negotiating an appropriate response to Russia's clear violation of the Minsk II ceasefire agreement.

 

[IndoAssassin]

lol, if you add in the nukes, the world will end...even though russia´s arsenal may be the biggest it won´t matter. the amount of nukes in the world is so ridiculously that it could end the world I dunno 10 times over or more.

so russia nukes eu, eu/us nukes russia, russia´s perimeter kicks in and empties it´s arsenal, usa does the same....noone survives

and china only thinks about china, and there is also that economic thing that china owns most of usa´s debt which would mean they would loose a hell of a lot of money and if india would consider going into attack mode then I wouldn´t be surprised that pakistan would use the chance and declare full scale war against india

It would be in China's and India's best interest that all three regions don't nuke each other. The radiation levels from the fallout will hit China and India. In fact with the amount of nukes launched into these regions no one in the world will survive.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

I sincerely hope the silence from Merkel/Hollande/Obama at the moment is because they're in the process of negotiating an appropriate response to Russia's clear violation of the Minsk II ceasefire agreement.

From those only Obama has any real chance of doing something. If it's one thing these past 3 years have proved, it's that the major Euro powers are toothless tigers when it comes to foreign policy.

 

[Vizzeh]

#StillBothSides

 

[graffix13]

From those only Obama has any real chance of doing something. If it's one thing these past 3 years have proved, it's that the major Euro powers are toothless tigers when it comes to foreign policy.

What are his options at this point? Arming Ukraine?

Man this is scary/depressing stuff...

 

[Purkake4]

What are his options at this point? Arming Ukraine?

Man this is scary/depressing stuff...

Accepting that Russia in its current state does not negotiate in good faith or hold to signed agreements would be a good start.

 

[Abinash117]

What are his options at this point? Arming Ukraine?

Man this is scary/depressing stuff...

Probably there would be arming and sanctions, just sanctions, or do nothing. Maybe some other like more talks, but I don't think that is realistic at this point. Imo the agreement was dead before it began it was never going to succeed. Arming is probably the next thing that will happen, obviously Russia will probably ship more stuff, but I think the intention is to add more costs to Russia and slow advances down. If more equipment and soldiers are defeated it would be much harder for them to support the conflict in the long run and maybe Ukraine can get more territory.

 

[Vizzeh]

Swedish site The PROFESSORS' BLOG &#8211; Science, Culture & Human Rights For All (summary) claiming that they have new evidence that

Excepts from the article&#8217;s Summary:

&#8220;Prior to its tragic downing on July 17, flight MH17 had avoided the battlefield, flying around it at least back to the 6th (last day I downloaded data from the FlightAware web site). The above screenshots * prove that FlightAware.com historic route data has now been changed to make MH17&#8217;s route down the middle of a hot battlefield appear to be the &#8220;regular route&#8221;. In fact it was not. MH17 had avoided the battle zone everyday until it was redirected into the kill zone, shadowed by a fighter, and shot down using multiple air to air missiles.

The fact that the old flight routes are being changed on web sites, speaks volumes about the degree of the cover up. You see if MH17 was re-directed, set up to be shot down, then it clearly was not an accident. As of writing, neither Poland, nor the Ukraine have released air traffic control tapes. No doubt because they once again would point to MH17 being set up.&#8221;

full analysis and much more info/telemetry:
(http://becircumspect.blogspot.co.nz/p/mh17-historic-flight-paths-have-been.html?m=1)

---------

I am sceptical of everything I read, however a scientific Swedish website holds a little weight, if anything, if conclusive evidence is based on tamper-proof? air traffic control tapes, by either Poland or Ukraine, they should really release them and end uncertainty, I am not sure of any reason why they wouldn't?

Only thing I could find was an excerpt from the bbc on "15:29: Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner" - Again why haven't these been released?

Obviously the entire story is inconclusive but seemingly some things are being held back.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

What are his options at this point? Arming Ukraine?

Man this is scary/depressing stuff...

There are 3 things,short term is to supply Ukraine with lethal aid. Advisers and trainers could help them as well. Long term is more sanctions less targeting and more sweeping to hurt the Russian economy. Sadly there isn't a good solution for Ukrainians and average Russians with Putin not negotiating in good faith.

 

[chadskin]

From those only Obama has any real chance of doing something. If it's one thing these past 3 years have proved, it's that the major Euro powers are toothless tigers when it comes to foreign policy.

A "good cop, bad cop" situation in which the US arms Ukraine (with defensive weapons) while the EU assumes the role of a "middle man" between Russia and the US is a good thing to me, though, not a sign of weakness. The EU should leave the door open for further attempts to negotiate a peaceful resolution with Russia as long as possible, the EU arming Ukraine may shut that door and we'd be likely heading towards a full-on East vs. West military confrontation.

What are his options at this point? Arming Ukraine?

Man this is scary/depressing stuff...

In response to the ceasefire violation in Debaltseve, I think both the EU and the US will just ratchet up sanctions once more. In terms of arming Ukraine, it likely depends on if the Russian forces will continue to be on the offensive and gain more ground beyond the demarcation line or if they will adhere to the Minsk II agreement after they've captured Debaltseve which - by the looks of it - may just be a matter of days now.

As capturing Debaltseve was always Russia's goal, my last glimmer of hope for Minsk II is that the fighting will largely stop once they have done so. Because otherwise, the OSCE said today the ceasefire is "largely held in most areas with the exception of Debaltseve (55km north-east of Donetsk) and Horlivka (44km north-west of Donetsk)".

 

[Nivash]

Swedish site The PROFESSORS' BLOG &#8211; Science, Culture & Human Rights For All (summary) claiming that they have new evidence that



I am sceptical of everything I read, however a scientific Swedish website holds a little weight, if anything, if conclusive evidence is based on tamper-proof? air traffic control tapes, by either Poland or Ukraine, they should really release them and end uncertainty, I am not sure of any reason why they wouldn't?

Only thing I could find was an excerpt from the bbc on "15:29: Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner" - Again why haven't these been released?

Obviously the entire story is inconclusive but seemingly some things are being held back.

First of all it's not a "scientific" website, it's a personal blog by someone who just happens to be a professor in medicine. The title "Professor's Blog" is technically accurate thanks to that but the byline is not - I can't find a single post by anyone other than the by de Noli himself. As for de Noli, he appears controversial to say the least. A quick Google search reveals that he has a habit of making statements without real evidence in lots of questions. And as far as the blog goes it's biased as fuck - he's out-RTing RT on anything having to do with Russia or NATO.

If you look at the primary source for his post it just makes things worse. It's another blog attempting to prove that MH17 was shot down by using screenshots of online aircraft tracking sites that have supposedly been "altered" which somehow proves a conspiracy. Never mind that those sites aren't that accurate, have nothing to do with Ukraine (and thereby necessitating one hell of a US clandestine operation and cove-rup to pull off the alteration) and oh, I don't know, flight plans for MH17 probably not being that hard to get access to in the first place. Although I guess conspiracy theorists will claim that those have been altered too.

EDIT: Oh and about those ATC tapes: there's no reason for them to release them. The air crash investigators, who are the only ones with legitimate need for the tapes, will get access. But there's no point in releasing them to the general public just to appease conspiracy theorists. Especially since it wouldn't do a damn thing, there's nothing they don't consider tamper prone.

 

[Damerman]

man, this is surprising... but not surprising at the same time... wtf.

 

[Vizzeh]

Some photos of the war which give chilling reality.

Source: http://l-instant.parismatch.com/Jour-apres-jour/La-guerre-fait-rage-en-Ukraine-706770#706790

 

[Liha]

Some photos of the war which give chilling reality.

These photos are so surreal, thanks for sharing.

 

[chadskin]

TobiasBunde: #Putin at press conference with Orban: American weapons have already been supplied. #Ukraine

https://twitter.com/tobiasbunde/status/567766583515553792

Well then.

 

[Engell]

Obviously the entire story is inconclusive but seemingly some things are being held back.

I like you link to the blog of a some crazy maniac.. Also you know they actually admitted to shooting down the plane on Russian TV before they found out it was a commercial airliner. One of the leaders from east Ukraine also admitted in an interview with vice that they shot down the plane(plus admitting it was his voice on the released phone calls where they also admitted they did it) plus actual photos of the missile trail, plus actual burned earth from where the missile was fired from... but yes lets pretend that the unlikely happened??

Also i actually flew over Ukraine just about 2 weeks before this "accident", and when looking at my screen in the airplane looking at the little dot moving over east Ukraine, I was thinking wow this is a bad idea. There was also several other airlines/planes in the airspace, on that route that day... do you know why.. because its the cheapest route to fly if you are going to the asian countries(from the top half of Europe). And yes the other route drawn is the alternative route that is used in case of bad weather etc.

 

[Kabouter]

Swedish site The PROFESSORS' BLOG – Science, Culture & Human Rights For All (summary) claiming that they have new evidence that



I am sceptical of everything I read, however a scientific Swedish website holds a little weight, if anything, if conclusive evidence is based on tamper-proof? air traffic control tapes, by either Poland or Ukraine, they should really release them and end uncertainty, I am not sure of any reason why they wouldn't?

Only thing I could find was an excerpt from the bbc on "15:29: Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner" - Again why haven't these been released?

Obviously the entire story is inconclusive but seemingly some things are being held back.

Oh, they changed the route because of bad weather (thunderstorms) over the normal route. There is literally no chance of MH17 having been shot down by an SU-25, the plane is completely incapable of doing so. It's just a rubbish site, even a cursory glance at the rest of it should tell you that the author is full of it.

 

[Engell]

One of the leaders from east Ukraine also admitted in an interview with vice that they shot down the plane(plus admitting it was his voice on the released phone calls where they also admitted they did it)

Btw.. the guy almost immediately disappeared after giving that interview.. i guess someone was butt hurt, basically making the lies that all trolls come with regarding MH17 invalid.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Swedish site The PROFESSORS' BLOG – Science, Culture & Human Rights For All (summary) claiming that they have new evidence that



I am sceptical of everything I read, however a scientific Swedish website holds a little weight, if anything, if conclusive evidence is based on tamper-proof? air traffic control tapes, by either Poland or Ukraine, they should really release them and end uncertainty, I am not sure of any reason why they wouldn't?

Only thing I could find was an excerpt from the bbc on "15:29: Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner" - Again why haven't these been released?

Obviously the entire story is inconclusive but seemingly some things are being held back.

So it's the same tired theory that it was a false flag attack. I wouldn't give that site much thought given the sources they use. It conveniently ignores the rebels bragging about shooting down a Ukrainian cargo jet and the fact that they were shooting down jets the weeks leading up to MH17. The air traffic tapes are being "held back" because there is an ongoing investigation. There's no reason to release them to the public just to quell people cherry picking evidence as they see fit.

What would be Ukraine's reason for the false flag attack anyway? They already had western support through sanctions (and the coup if you believe certain websites) at this point. Not everything is a conspiracy, sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

 

[Xando]

Anyone remember Russian planes flying over the North Sea last month without their transponders on?

German BILD is reporting they might have had nukes onboard and members of the Bundestag have been briefed about it.

 

[Jackpot]

Swedish site The PROFESSORS' BLOG – Science, Culture & Human Rights For All (summary) claiming that they have new evidence that



I am sceptical of everything I read, however a scientific Swedish website holds a little weight, if anything, if conclusive evidence is based on tamper-proof? air traffic control tapes, by either Poland or Ukraine, they should really release them and end uncertainty, I am not sure of any reason why they wouldn't?

Only thing I could find was an excerpt from the bbc on "15:29: Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner" - Again why haven't these been released?

Obviously the entire story is inconclusive but seemingly some things are being held back.

*sigh* you know there is such a thing as being so open-minded your brain falls out.

 

[Resident_UA]

Putin is just trolling EU and US right now. His latest comment about Debaltsevo:

"Of course it is bad to loose. Especially if you loose to coal miners and tractor drivers"

He's probably very impressed how they re-purposed tractors as T-72s...

 

[Veritigo_X]

Putin is just trolling EU and US right now. His latest comment about Debaltsevo:

"Of course it is bad to loose. Especially if you loose to coal miners and tractor drivers"

He's probably very impressed how they re-purposed tractors as T-72s...

Especially if you lose during an apparent ceasefire. That is very bad.

 

[Vizzeh]

"The fact that the old flight routes are being changed on web sites"

That line alone, without actually spending time checking the data myself, left me questioning the reliability, not so sure why there wouldn't be some 'whistleblowers' should the authorities in question call for telemetry on the websites to be changed. Still feel if evidence is in existence, that would prove things beyond doubt, especially with both sides pointing fingers, it would appease many if released. (kinda old news now anyway)

However he/they seemed to have fairly decent credentials listed on the above site and Sweden, typically pro-eu/us, so thought it was worth a share, unless as you guys said, the article blogger is simply mentally unwell...

 

[Engell]

Sweden, typically pro-eu/us, so thought it was worth a share, unless as you guys said, the article blogger is simply mentally unwell...

Every country have crazy people.. you should know this

 

[Vizzeh]

Paul Sonne @PaulSonne tweets...
Asked about foreign weapons deliveries to Ukraine, Putin says: "According to our information, they're already being delivered."

Putin on any weapons deliveries to Ukraine: "The number of deaths may increase but the result will be the same as today."

Putin: American weapons have not big impact. #Ukraine's soldiers don't want to kill their brothers while #NAF has strong defence motivation.

Putin says Ukrainian government shouldn't prevent its soldiers surrounded in Debaltseve from surrendering and laying down their arms.

Putin: “To lose is always painful. It’s a hardship especially when you lose to yesterday’s miners and tractor drivers. But life is life."

Putin really needling Poroshenko when he says "of course it's hard to lose," "especially when you lose to former miners and tractor drivers"


In Hungary, Putin tells Ukraine that "losing is always painful" but says "life will go on"

 

[TarNaru33]

"The fact that the old flight routes are being changed on web sites"

That line alone, without actually spending time checking the data myself, left me questioning the reliability, not so sure why there wouldn't be some 'whistleblowers' should the authorities in question call for telemetry on the websites to be changed. Still feel if evidence is in existence, that would prove things beyond doubt, especially with both sides pointing fingers, it would appease many if released. (kinda old news now anyway)

However he/they seemed to have fairly decent credentials listed on the above site and Sweden, typically pro-eu/us, so thought it was worth a share, unless as you guys said, the article blogger is simply mentally unwell...

Would you just stop this already please... It is okay to be open-minded, but you are incredibly close to being naive or purposely obtuse. There is no reason to release it because it would not change the mind of conspiracy theorist. Conspiracy theorist will go for any hole, no matter how small it is and make a story of it, there is no appeasing this mindset.

Leave it to investigators, unlike what conspiracy theorist believe, they are largely honest in they're findings. Only when said investigators have stake in it, should the findings need to be released in full.