Razgriz-Specter
Member
Yo Snake, Samus fell in love with you during your time together in Smash Bros and decided to join you in your universe as a Russian pilot of some sort.
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Women Characters Redesigned by Women SFF Artists
- Thread starter FlyinJ
- Start date
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Samus?! Colonel, what's a Russian pilot doing here?
Dice//
Banned
What's a masculine feature? What's effeminate? Are women stuck with long hair and men must cut theirs after a certain length? Of course not. Are men entitled to being the only ones with muscles?
If it helps, we don't want women to look like men (^), just women who don't gotta show T&A and pander to a simple crowd. I doubt it'll stop games like Senran Kagura, and it doesn't have to, but more mainline (ie; less niche) games would be a huge boon in terms of making gaming more inclusive.
It's true, there are many ways to create strong women, not just in their clothes but in personalities (which is why the "Anita List" from a week or so ago was so popular because it talk about crafting less simple personalities as well as not putting women in ridiculous bikini armour). Design is a component, but I also guess part of the problem is that personalities don't match up, girls are often "the girl character", dress accordingly, and you get that same old happening all over.
Japanese games are super notorious for "rewarding" revealing clothes.
Paz's swimsuit model viewer (IIRC) is something you get for getting S-rank in a mission.
Metroid at least covers up Samus more, I'd definitely argue ZSS is more sexualized these days though.
Resonance of Fate lets you buy a skirt for a ridiculous price more than any other skirt because it's the one without leggings
And so on. =/
On Shulk: Yeah, they totally gave him some bulge in Smash (dunno why I'm so surprised).
Anton Sugar
Member
Ah, I see--I have a hazy memory of those games, so I probably skipped over that conversation.
This. Men and women are sexualized in different ways. Having a man in skintight clothing is not a get out of jail free card for the design of women in the game. Men in skintight outfits also ALWAYS have uni-crotch syndrome and are rarely displayed in sexual poses.
Dice//
Banned
Actually, I always get stumped at this part of the argument. I agree, putting in sexy men isn't the way to go (even if it would, on some level be appreciated as trying to get women to look, and I've had NO problem with the games that have done it (Res Evil, I guess Xenoblade, and a few others)) -- but how DO you get women more interested in games? Is there a "similar thing" that can draw them in? Appealing visuals will probably do better than just distinctly "sexy visuals".
I'm ashamed to say but I am a sucker for some romance is games, but I'm not sure that's always the way to go either (it certainly doesn't help that romance is such a hit or miss thing, being either done right enough, or terribly and hammy). I guess guys don't hate romance either, otherwise it'd be surprising that it keeps popping up in games.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
At that point, can we accredit it to just being Japanese culture? In another thread like this there was discussion that well, representation of Genders is completely different between the East and West. Like, I'm sure there are more female characters in Japanese games than in Western games, both playable and non-playable. At the same time though there's a number of them that become sexualized, like you mentioned Paz, the chick from RoF, etc. Smash isn't immune from this. Palituna(....Green haired chick) is quite....bodacious as well.
So when do we say 'It's because of their culture and how they treat the genders' from calling it sexist and objectifying, especially since Japanese values are far different from our own, a mostly Western forums?
Apollo Cree
Member
Large muscles are 100% a masculine feature. Women can not reproduce this without being complete outliers or pumping themselves full of hormones found in vastly greater levels in men. That's why I think there's so much more complexity designing female characters. If you want a strong and powerful male character, you simply give him a first class ticket on the swole train.
Dice//
Banned
Yeah, of course I attribute it to cultural thing. I don't care (I just roll my eyes a little when it does happen, maybe giggle a bit and say "good grief, Charlie Brown").
Actually, I was surprised and happy in Kid Icarus Uprising that their model viewer doesn't let the camera go 'upskirt' on a few characters. Palutena is one of them (the best you'll get is a sight of her upper leg) and, fortunately, a little girl character.
So? The point is that it doesn't HAVE to be and muscular women CAN happen. And even still, watch any athletic event women can still get quite fit; they're not just slender hour glass figures with large breasts. Samus sort of lost her muscles when they started focus on her ZSS aspect being a Barbie doll
Samantha Wright being a great example of a thick and muscular lady who isn't a "titan" either.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
What would be the male equivalent of ZSS then? Because guys in Smash run the full spectrum of looks and body types. You have the bishies like Marth and Link, the average looking guys like Robin and Shulk, muscular guys like Ike, Falcon and Snake and ugly dudes like Ganondorf
I think the male equivalent would be injecting DMC3-era Dante into the game.
You're missing the real point, the mass majority of men are not sexual objects in video games, females are. Samus as a character concept bucks that tradition and it's why shes so cool. ZSS is silly, does not make sense, and pushes her down the same path that the majority of female characters are forced down, being nothing but an object. It doesn't really matter much if Snake or Falcon are sexualized because they would be a drop in the sea of male characters who have nothing but agency.
I still disagree that ZSS is silly and doesn't make sense, but you're right about a majority of male characters.
Dice//
Banned
I guess that matter of taste happens here. But face-wise, Chris Redfield is a dreamboat.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
So? The point is that it doesn't HAVE to be and muscular women CAN happen. And even still, watch any athletic event women can still get quite fit; they're not just slender hour glass figures with large breasts. Samus sort of lost her muscles when they started focus on her ZSS aspect being a Barbie doll
Samantha Wright being a great example of a thick and muscular lady who isn't a "titan" either.
Aside from Samus having a smaller core and bigger boobs, her physique isn't that much different...there are women with curves despite being muscular, Serena Williams being an example of one.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Project Diva redeemed!
Seriously though, cultural relativism helps explain differences in gender portrayal, but doesn't really justify it. We can't say "Well Samus' Zero Suit clings to each individual breast because Japan." There should still be kayfabe justification for it.
I don't know how common this view is, but I don't even care about whatever the author has to say about his work. What matters is the work and what it contains, not whatever the author wanted to do. Cultural aspects of that process seem just as irrelevant to me.
But I guess if we seriously started getting upset at Japanese games for their very particuluar sexualization we'd never get anything else done, lol.
Samantha Wright being a great example of a thick and muscular lady who isn't a "titan" either.
She's also what I always wanted Zero Suit Samus to look like since seeing her new look with the helmet off in Metroid Prime 1.
Her current look is absolutely ridiculous. I get she's meant to be quick and agile, but really no matter how you twist it her actual body shape and that heavy armor just don't add up.
TheRedSnifit
Member
I said all this literally one post above you. Samus's supermodel proportions look overly sexy in the Zero Suit. But she's had those same proportions in every game with the processing power to show them, so going "BLARGH NEW SAMUS" is disingenuous. Samus has pretty much always been designed to be a sexy space chick.
Yeah, if I were in an exploding spaceship, I wouldn't stop for anything at all. It's a cheap excuse to shove in the typical post-credits "let's show Samus in skimpy clothes lol" thing, but there's a pretty good story reason for not wasting time.
Cool, we can agree to disagree with the ZSS outfit general idea (especially sense I can admit that I can really be hard on scifi when it comes to suspension of disbelief) I'm just happy that it seems like we can agree the actual execution is garbage and that as a whole this objectification of strong female characters is bad.
Zoe
Member
No matter how you twist it, no body can turn into a tiny ball.
Intheflorsh
Banned
Not really, Samus's arms are very thin compared to Wright's. Samus's physique is much more Barbie than athlete.
For what it's worth in the big picture of objectified female characters I think ZSS is fairly low on the totem pole of worst offenders. I'd rather they address stuff like the bikini armor level absurdity before going after more tame by comparison stuff like ZSS. I just wish the Zero Suit countered to her body more like a natural jumpsuit (mostly around the chest area, which is where it mostly gets unreal), and that they ditched the heels (this is mostly a Smash thing). Other than that I don't have much of an issue with ZSS.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Wright is also like 5'2" while Samus is over 6' tall. Bulk on shorter people is always more pronounced, but yeah her arms probably aren't as thick. Samus with that amount of bulk would look like that Overwatch character
Anton Sugar
Member
The tricky part is making a blanket statement like, "men like X, women like Y", because there are ALWAYS exceptions to this and it's impossible to speak for an entire gender. There's also the assertion that women are not as visually stimulated as men, but I don't know how accurate that is or if it's been rejected.
Like, when the design for Zero Suit Samus was being made, when they decided she would have huge boobs, a fat ass, a gorgeous face, AND be blonde...who were they designing her for? There is nothing wrong with having an amazing body or a beautiful face, but in terms of design, "blonde with hourglass figure" isn't exactly original. I actually like the general design of the Zero Suit, simple as it is, but it's obviously tweaked to be more pleasing to men.
I don't think "it's a different culture" is a valid excuse for a lot of the ways women are sexualized or objectified. Some, maybe, but not all. If a culture values objectifying women, that's a shitty value, IMO.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
When Marvel started their whole Marvel Now phase in 2012 they introduced her in that costume. She wore it for about 3 years. Now since the relaunch of Uncanny Avengers she has a new costume.Has the Scarlet Witch ever used this suit in the comics?
hurricanes
Member
You don't know what you are talking about. The lady in the gif is clearly more muscular than ZSS. Look at Samus' thighs and compare to the gif lady's thigh or Chun Li's(who has large boots and muscular) thigh. Samus has a barbie-y/skinny model body type and has little muscle.
Apollo Cree
Member
We're only going to be playing with semantics if we stick with this. There's no masculine or feminine features when you ignore the very real biological differences that define males and females. Cultural definitions? Sure, we can go back and forth all we want.So? The point is that it doesn't HAVE to be and muscular women CAN happen. And even still, watch any athletic event women can still get quite fit; they're not just slender hour glass figures with large breasts. Samus sort of lost her muscles when they started focus on her ZSS aspect being a Barbie doll
Samantha Wright being a great example of a thick and muscular lady who isn't a "titan" either.
Samantha Wright is strong compared to most women her size (5'2 ~115lbs) and again, she's an outlier. She is not an average woman, just as Samus wouldn't be. I'm not denying that women can be fit, just that a musclebound example such as Zarya isn't a healthy standard. The best argument in the thread, is just that the diversity needs to be there and I can get behind that.
A lot of them didn't respected the character
They could've changed the clothes design without changing the face+hair but they did, so some of them lost their personality, imo.
From the article
Sorry to say this BUT drows are dominant.
Your art doesn't represent that side/statut of her at all.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
How are people missing the point all the time?!
I would say that they are going for a wider range of body type then the clothes/armour per sey.
DragonGirl
Member
While her model is better in Smash 4, in Other M, her arms were actually concave, exactly like a Barbie doll. Samus is not portrayed cohesively across games.
I hate the Zero Suit. I did not hate it in game but since then it has been an excuse to show off her "assets" which are made to supermodel proportions. I'd rework the Zero into a functional survival suit with padded armor and pockets for survival gear. Something appropriate to wear under the armor. Actual skin tight clothing, like what gymnasts wear or wet suits, do not look painted on.
Yup your idea for the zero suit is exactly what I was arguing for.
man, this article had me going until chun li, where it takes a drastic nosedive in quality
also, I take huge issue with this. yes, it's not great that the zero suit is obviously making Samus' features stand out way too much, but this design does not fulfill the original purpose, which is to leave her resourceless without her suit. the original design notes for the zero suit are almost perfectly fine, it's just the adjustments made over time that drag it down. you don't fix that by changing the design to be something that has literally no application to the universe of the game. even the smash 4 sports bra is a better fix. design something that covers her body from the neck down, offers freedom of movement, and does not give her any opportunity for defense other than what's in her hands. that's the best option you've got
also, I take huge issue with this. yes, it's not great that the zero suit is obviously making Samus' features stand out way too much, but this design does not fulfill the original purpose, which is to leave her resourceless without her suit. the original design notes for the zero suit are almost perfectly fine, it's just the adjustments made over time that drag it down. you don't fix that by changing the design to be something that has literally no application to the universe of the game. even the smash 4 sports bra is a better fix. design something that covers her body from the neck down, offers freedom of movement, and does not give her any opportunity for defense other than what's in her hands. that's the best option you've got
The notion goes around that it's because of the 3DS' limitations.
DannyDanger
Member
Samantha Wright being a great example of a thick and muscular lady who isn't a "titan" either.
I don't really care about this thread anymore
I'm in love
So, here's a great video in anticipation of International Women's Day (plus a bunch more at the end of the video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMBYFXZknGQ
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I know, right? Pixie Warrior is the best.
Anton Sugar
Member
I think their point (which you quoted) was that this was a redesign intended for SSB. In that game, she is clearly not "helpless". He has her gun, her whip, her rocket boots, etc. If we're going (again) down the "that's not its purpose" road, Zero Suit Samus shouldn't even be in Brawl because she's in a weakened state and not prepped for combat.
Outrageous! Look at Wright's arms, tighs, shoulders. Zamus is nothing like that, she's just a run-of-the-mill "babe" with huge knockers. Her only outstanding feature are her big feet.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Wasn't that how she was presented in Brawl? She only appeared after your final smash where your suit broke apart, which falls in line contextually with why you used her in Zero Mission
I agree with this but in the same vein, Kkuem is a female game artist and many of her designs fall very much in line with what most men would traditionally find "sexy."
So I'm a bit conflicted on how I feel about sexy visuals rather than sex as exploitation. Maybe we're just not at the point of being able to have that more subtle conversation until the underlying issue is addressed? I find that a lot of these conversations are often about the lack of consideration for different ways of knowing and appreciating reality. Gender-queer and genderless considerations are also stereotyped based on the exaggeration of their formal visual qualities but whether or not that's exploitation seems to be based on character and candor; that is, whether or not they are forced into existing stereotypes rather than having a voice outside of fulfilling their "role."
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
But there's no "combat." Not in the sense that their's any danger for the character since it's a spin-off gimmick game in some pocket dimension. No character is "in character" or in their actual lore. The first Smash even sort of implied they weren't the characters themselves but rather dolls someone is playing with (a theme modern Smash maintains with the whole master hand thing.)
And by that logic almost no character should be in Smash. Cpt. Falcon, Star Fox and Falco, NES, Peach, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina and Pac Man would be out. It'd be horrible and taking a fun side-show much too seriously.
Anton Sugar
Member
To be clear, I have no problem with her inclusion in SSB.
I'm just getting frustrated that people are falling back on "Zero Suit is helpless Samus in underwear, she's not ready for combat, so that redesign makes no sense" and yet she is in a fighting game, thus kinda destroying the context of the Zero Suit, which leaves it open for a reinterpretation. Like, if she had her Zero Suit AND had to get ready for combat, what would she bring if the Varia Suit weren't available?
That's exactly my point--my "she shouldn't even be in the game" is an extrapolation of how ridiculous it is to cling to the story/context of the suit. If we're ignoring the context of these outfits and just playing a sport-ish tournament, why does the context of the outfit matter at all? The Zero Suit isn't Link's iconic green garb or anything like that.
I'm totally down with taking her out of Smash 4 as a standalone character (with Bayonetta-esque rocket heels to justify the absurd heels on an outfit from a platforming game) but in Brawl it makes perfect sense.
Talk about disingenuous. Samus has pretty much always been designed to be a space bounty hunter. Shoots aliens and doesn't afraid of anything (sans Other M). The sexualization part confined itself to a few seconds in the credits.
No, she would not. That's an exaggeration.
I mean her design has been somewhat fluid over the years but aside from a loss of muscle tone (which is regrettable), the features you're pointing out describe most incarnations of the character prior to ZSS.
Those aren't mutually exclusive.
Yet they factually were in the all but the most recent games.
This. So Japan has a culture of sexualizing women. Doesn't excuse anything.
You're explaining too much. They just took the design they already had from previous games and only tweaked it. Remember, this is Nintendo. They always play it safe.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Because it matters in Zero Mission, a game that's actually part of the text used to build Samus as a character. I'm aware by now the article is updated to refer to the Smash version specifically, but the image used is still in comparison to the Zero Mission ZSS where the story/context is important. And this discussion about context started before the article distanced itself from the canon.
Most people, including me, that argued the ZSS redesign (however cool I think it is) doesn't fit the original setting because that's one of our primary sources of characterization for Samus where the design matters a whole lot. It doesn't matter in a spin-off non-canon game by a different developer.
Anton Sugar
Member
No one says that nudity is immoral (if you read the article, you'd understand that, as she specifically points out sexy vs sexualized).
Fair enough. I just find it really odd to complain about redesigning a suit to make her more ready for combat, when the game itself makes her more ready for combat by giving her additional abilities/weapons.
Sweet Ivy
Member
I "like" the absolutism of "what women want", didn't know we all want/like/appreciate/are offended by the same things.
Personally I like skin-tight and sensual clothes.
I wear skin-tight shirts at home all the time, alone, in front of my pc; just because I feel more comfy like that I like how I look.
The fact that sexy/sensual clothes are worn to please males, is the most sexist statement in my humble, womanly, personal and totally unique opinion.
That said what I find outrageous and sexist in designs is heels.
Honestly, you can easily kickass in bikini, but high heels? blah. Counter-action par excellence.
Personally I like skin-tight and sensual clothes.
I wear skin-tight shirts at home all the time, alone, in front of my pc; just because I feel more comfy like that I like how I look.
The fact that sexy/sensual clothes are worn to please males, is the most sexist statement in my humble, womanly, personal and totally unique opinion.
That said what I find outrageous and sexist in designs is heels.
Honestly, you can easily kickass in bikini, but high heels? blah. Counter-action par excellence.