Razgriz-Specter
Member
Yo Snake, Samus fell in love with you during your time together in Smash Bros and decided to join you in your universe as a Russian pilot of some sort.
Yo Snake, Samus fell in love with you during your time together in Smash Bros and decided to join you in your universe as a Russian pilot of some sort.
Yo Snake, Samus fell in love with you during your time together in Smash Bros and decided to join you in your universe as a Russian pilot of some sort.
This kind of confused me. The way to empower a woman character is to give her masculine features? It doesn't really highlight what it is to be a strong woman. Maybe I'm off key and don't understand what a strong woman is supposed to be in a video game setting.
Well, seeing as all her result screens with her wearing sports clothing or a skintight suit were a sort of bonus for beating the game fast..yeah it's pretty objectifying. But it's not her default outfit, and if true based off Aliens. Or something. Either way I don't have a problem with it because when it hink of Samus, I think of her power suit. That's just me though. I can see why someone would be offended by it.
We had a discussion with Crossing Eden yesterday about The Boss' involvement in the Normandy invasion from WW2, even though she was pregnant at the time. Sure, I can understand why it seems weird to him/her but being pregnant does not render women useless and The Boss especially has been built up as the most legendary soldier in that universe. So it's not far fetched that she was too important for the mission to be left out.
(Completely ignoring that it fits her character, sets up part of the MGS3 story and she even says in the game that she discovered her pregnancy much too far into the planning stages of that mission.)
First I think swimming trunks Shulk is pretty silly, but it is only a costume variant not a whole separate and better character selection. Second if the situations were reversed and 90% of male characters were cardboard cut out, sexualized objects and then they took snake one of the few great and fully realized male characters and put him in a latex suit perfectly outlining his junk (which btw while both falcon and snake have tight suits on, they are nothing like ZSS) then yes I'd be pissed about it. The reality of the situation, and the context of gaming as a whole points to the opposite being true.
This. Men and women are sexualized in different ways. Having a man in skintight clothing is not a get out of jail free card for the design of women in the game. Men in skintight outfits also ALWAYS have uni-crotch syndrome and are rarely displayed in sexual poses.
Japanese games are super notorious for "rewarding" revealing clothes.
Paz's swimsuit model viewer (IIRC) is something you get for getting S-rank in a mission.
Metroid at least covers up Samus more, I'd definitely argue ZSS is more sexualized these days though.
Resonance of Fate lets you buy a skirt for a ridiculous price more than any other skirt because it's the one without leggings
And so on. =/
On Shulk: Yeah, they totally gave him some bulge in Smash (dunno why I'm so surprised).
Large muscles are 100% a masculine feature. Women can not reproduce this without being complete outliers or pumping themselves full of hormones found in vastly greater levels in men. That's why I think there's so much more complexity designing female characters. If you want a strong and powerful male character, you simply give him a first class ticket on the swole train.What's a masculine feature? What's effeminate? Are women stuck with long hair and men must cut theirs after a certain length? Of course not. Are men entitled to being the only ones with muscles?
At that point, can we accredit it to just being Japanese culture? In another thread like this there was discussion that well, representation of Genders is completely different between the East and West. Like, I'm sure there are more female characters in Japanese games than in Western games, both playable and non-playable. At the same time though there's a number of them that become sexualized, like you mentioned Paz, the chick from RoF, etc. Smash isn't immune from this. Palituna(....Green haired chick) is quite....bodacious as well.
So when do we say 'It's because of their culture and how they treat the genders' from calling it sexist and objectifying, especially since Japanese values are far different from our own, a mostly Western forums?
Large muscles are 100% a masculine feature. Women can not reproduce this without being complete outliers or pumping themselves full of hormones found in vastly greater levels in men. That's why I think there's so much more complexity designing female characters. If you want a strong and powerful male character, you simply give him a first class ticket on the swole train.
What would be the male equivalent of ZSS then? Because guys in Smash run the full spectrum of looks and body types. You have the bishies like Marth and Link, the average looking guys like Robin and Shulk, muscular guys like Ike, Falcon and Snake and ugly dudes like Ganondorf
I've personally never liked this argument/statement because what a woman will find sexual isn't a 1 to 1 translation compared to what a male will find sexual.
Personally I think Captain Falcon having visible rock hard Superman abs through what looks to be a racing coat is makes less sense than Samus wearing a form fitting undersuit, but that's just me.
You're missing the real point, the mass majority of men are not sexual objects in video games, females are. Samus as a character concept bucks that tradition and it's why shes so cool. ZSS is silly, does not make sense, and pushes her down the same path that the majority of female characters are forced down, being nothing but an object. It doesn't really matter much if Snake or Falcon are sexualized because they would be a drop in the sea of male characters who have nothing but agency.
What would be the male equivalent of ZSS then? Because guys in Smash run the full spectrum of looks and body types. You have the bishies like Marth and Link, the average looking guys like Robin and Shulk, muscular guys like Ike, Falcon and Snake and ugly dudes like Ganondorf
So? The point is that it doesn't HAVE to be and muscular women CAN happen. And even still, watch any athletic event women can still get quite fit; they're not just slender hour glass figures with large breasts. Samus sort of lost her muscles when they started focus on her ZSS aspect being a Barbie doll
Samantha Wright being a great example of a thick and muscular lady who isn't a "titan" either.
Yeah, of course I attribute it to cultural thing. I don't care (I just roll my eyes a little when it does happen, maybe giggle a bit and say "good grief, Charlie Brown").
Actually, I was surprised and happy in Kid Icarus Uprising that their model viewer doesn't let the camera go 'upskirt' on a few characters. Palutena is one of them (the best you'll get is a sight of her upper leg) and, fortunately, a little girl character.
Samantha Wright being a great example of a thick and muscular lady who isn't a "titan" either.
A lot of the backlash from the ZSS redesign isn't about her suit. Super Metroid ending bikini Samus might not be particularly classy, but her body proportions aren't particularly over-idealized and she's got some notable muscle definition. Fanservice aside, they took into account that, hey, this is a girl that operates inside a heavy suit of power armor, let's make her look the part a little.
However functional or apropos the design of the actual Zero Suit is, the design of the woman wearing it has thrown away that contextualization. There is no shred of "make her look like a powerful bounty hunter" apparent in Samus's Zero Suit redesign, the overriding design intent was clearly "make her look sexy." Defined muscles into the dustbin, increase boob size, lengthen those legs, apply comically high heels, little pallet of perfect plastic hair dolloped on top, and hey let's garnish with a little Marilyn Monroe mole. ZSS, as has oft been said, is a fucking Barbie doll.
Do you think it takes five minutes to put on the Varia Suit? We even see it take only a few seconds in other scenes in Other M. The Zero Suit sequence in Other M was just Samus being an idiot (which to be fair, is consistent with her characterization in Other M).
I still disagree that ZSS is silly and doesn't make sense, but you're right about a majority of male characters.
Her current look is absolutely ridiculous. I get she's meant to be quick and agile, but really no matter how you twist it her actual body shape and that heavy armor just don't add up.
Aside from Samus having a smaller core and bigger boobs, her physique isn't that much different...there are women with curves despite being muscular, Serena Williams being an example of one.
Cool, we can agree to disagree with the ZSS outfit general idea (especially sense I can admit that I can really be hard on scifi when it comes to suspension of disbelief) I'm just happy that it seems like we can agree the actual execution is garbage and that as a whole this objectification of strong female characters is bad.
Not really, Samus's arms are very thin compared to Wright's. Samus's physique is much more Barbie than athlete.
Actually, I always get stumped at this part of the argument. I agree, putting in sexy men isn't the way to go (even if it would, on some level be appreciated as trying to get women to look, and I've had NO problem with the games that have done it (Res Evil, I guess Xenoblade, and a few others)) -- but how DO you get women more interested in games? Is there a "similar thing" that can draw them in?
I'm ashamed to say but I am a sucker for some romance is games, but I'm not sure that's always the way to go either (it certainly doesn't help that romance is such a hit or miss thing, being either done right enough, or terribly and hammy).
So when do we say 'It's because of their culture and how they treat the genders' from calling it sexist and objectifying, especially since Japanese values are far different from our own, a mostly Western forums?
When Marvel started their whole Marvel Now phase in 2012 they introduced her in that costume. She wore it for about 3 years. Now since the relaunch of Uncanny Avengers she has a new costume.Has the Scarlet Witch ever used this suit in the comics?
Aside from Samus having a smaller core and bigger boobs, her physique isn't that much different...there are women with curves despite being muscular, Serena Williams being an example of one.
We're only going to be playing with semantics if we stick with this. There's no masculine or feminine features when you ignore the very real biological differences that define males and females. Cultural definitions? Sure, we can go back and forth all we want.So? The point is that it doesn't HAVE to be and muscular women CAN happen. And even still, watch any athletic event women can still get quite fit; they're not just slender hour glass figures with large breasts. Samus sort of lost her muscles when they started focus on her ZSS aspect being a Barbie doll
Samantha Wright being a great example of a thick and muscular lady who isn't a "titan" either.
This is some great stuff. A bunch of women concept artists got together and did redesigns on several video game and comic characters:
http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2015/03/what-women-wantin-women-characters.html
Sorry to say this BUT drows are dominant.Pirotess (Record of Lodoss War) redesign by Elif Siebenpfeiffer "Pirotess is a drow, a fighter and a powerful sorceress - let’s not put her in a fancy sexy nurse dress."
What women want in female characters...
I thought generalizing was a bad thing?
Make diverse characters, attract a diverse audience.
Wright is also like 5'2" while Samus is over 6' tall. Bulk on shorter people is always more pronounced, but yeah her arms probably aren't as thick. Samus would that amount of bulk would look like that Overwatch character
While her model is better in Smash 4, in Other M, her arms were actually concave, exactly like a Barbie doll. Samus is not portrayed cohesively across games.
I hate the Zero Suit. I did not hate it in game but since then it has been an excuse to show off her "assets" which are made to supermodel proportions. I'd rework the Zero into a functional survival suit with padded armor and pockets for survival gear. Something appropriate to wear under the armor. Actual skin tight clothing, like what gymnasts wear or wet suits, do not look painted on.
Update: Yes, we KNOW the Zero suit is supposed to go under her battle armor, we're professionals. We're talking about the high-heeled version in Super Smash Bros, which was clearly marketed just to make Samus more sexy. Which was unfortunate because she was such an amazing character without needing to be sexified. (Yes, I'm old enough to remember when it was actually a shock that she was a girl at the end of the original Metroid.) So enough with the mansplaining, please.
The notion goes around that it's because of the 3DS' limitations.It's kind of weird, they slit up Sheik and Zelda this time around as well. Not saying it's bad since I like all of those characters but they definitely deviated from Brawl in that regard.
Samantha Wright being a great example of a thick and muscular lady who isn't a "titan" either.
I don't really care about this thread anymore
I'm in love
also, I take huge issue with this. yes, it's not great that the zero suit is obviously making Samus' features stand out way too much, but this design does not fulfill the original purpose, which is to leave her resourceless without her suit. the original design notes for the zero suit are almost perfectly fine, it's just the adjustments made over time that drag it down. you don't fix that by changing the design to be something that has literally no application to the universe of the game. even the smash 4 sports bra is a better fix. design something that covers her body from the neck down, offers freedom of movement, and does not give her any opportunity for defense other than what's in her hands. that's the best option you've got
Outrageous! Look at Wright's arms, tighs, shoulders. Zamus is nothing like that, she's just a run-of-the-mill "babe" with huge knockers. Her only outstanding feature are her big feet.Aside from Samus having a smaller core and bigger boobs, her physique isn't that much different...there are women with curves despite being muscular, Serena Williams being an example of one.
I think their point (which you quoted) was that this was a redesign intended for SSB. In that game, she is clearly not "helpless". He has her gun, her whip, her rocket boots, etc. If we're going (again) down the "that's not its purpose" road, Zero Suit Samus shouldn't even be in Brawl because she's in a weakened state and not prepped for combat.
I agree with this but in the same vein, Kkuem is a female game artist and many of her designs fall very much in line with what most men would traditionally find "sexy."Female artist!
Fumi Ishikawa's run as a Suiko artist was great. Generally you need a great artist to draw over 100 unique N/PCs, but I loved her style. Indeed, males, females, fat, skinny, muscular, chubby, busty, duck people, and so on. They were a diverse cast and look great for it quite often.
I also love that Chris' design doesn't have "boob pockets" either in the armor
I think their point (which you quoted) was that this was a redesign intended for SSB. In that game, she is clearly not "helpless". He has her gun, her whip, her rocket boots, etc. If we're going (again) down the "that's not its purpose" road, Zero Suit Samus shouldn't even be in Brawl because she's in a weakened state and not prepped for combat.
Wasn't that how she was presented in Brawl? She only appeared after your final smash where your suit broke apart, which falls in line contextually with why you used her in Zero Mission
But there's no "combat." Not in the sense that their's any danger for the character since it's a spin-off gimmick game in some pocket dimension. No character is "in character" or in their actual lore. The first Smash even sort of implied they weren't the characters themselves but rather dolls someone is playing with (a theme modern Smash maintains with the whole master hand thing.)
I think their point (which you quoted) was that this was a redesign intended for SSB. In that game, she is clearly not "helpless". He has her gun, her whip, her rocket boots, etc. If we're going (again) down the "that's not its purpose" road, Zero Suit Samus shouldn't even be in Brawl because she's in a weakened state and not prepped for combat.
Talk about disingenuous. Samus has pretty much always been designed to be a space bounty hunter. Shoots aliens and doesn't afraid of anything (sans Other M). The sexualization part confined itself to a few seconds in the credits.so going "BLARGH NEW SAMUS" is disingenuous. Samus has pretty much always been designed to be a sexy space chick.
No, she would not. That's an exaggeration.Wright is also like 5'2" while Samus is over 6' tall. Bulk on shorter people is always more pronounced, but yeah her arms probably aren't as thick. Samus with that amount of bulk would look like that Overwatch character
Like, when the design for Zero Suit Samus was being made, when they decided she would have huge boobs, a fat ass, a gorgeous face, AND be blonde...who were they designing her for? There is nothing wrong with having an amazing body or a beautiful face, but in terms of design, "blonde with hourglass figure" isn't exactly original. I actually like the general design of the Zero Suit, simple as it is, but it's obviously tweaked to be more pleasing to men.
Talk about disingenuous. Samus has pretty much always been designed to be a space bounty hunter. Shoots aliens and doesn't afraid of anything (sans Other M). The sexualization part confined itself to a few seconds in the credits.
Yet they factually were in the all but the most recent games.Those aren't mutually exclusive.
This. So Japan has a culture of sexualizing women. Doesn't excuse anything.I don't think "it's a different culture" is a valid excuse for a lot of the ways women are sexualized or objectified. Some, maybe, but not all. If a culture values objectifying women, that's a shitty value, IMO.
You're explaining too much. They just took the design they already had from previous games and only tweaked it. Remember, this is Nintendo. They always play it safe.also, I take huge issue with this. yes, it's not great that the zero suit is obviously making Samus' features stand out way too much, but this design does not fulfill the original purpose, which is to leave her resourceless without her suit. the original design notes for the zero suit are almost perfectly fine, it's just the adjustments made over time that drag it down. you don't fix that by changing the design to be something that has literally no application to the universe of the game. even the smash 4 sports bra is a better fix. design something that covers her body from the neck down, offers freedom of movement, and does not give her any opportunity for defense other than what's in her hands. that's the best option you've got
That's exactly my point--my "she shouldn't even be in the game" is an extrapolation of how ridiculous it is to cling to the story/context of the suit. If we're ignoring the context of these outfits and just playing a sport-ish tournament, why does the context of the outfit matter at all? The Zero Suit isn't Link's iconic green garb or anything like that.
I see more bare-chested male characters than topless female characters in video games.
Nudity (male or female) isn't immoral, the flaws are in the eyes of the beholder.
Because it matters in Zero Mission, a game that's actually part of the text used to build Samus as a character. I'm aware by now the article is updated to refer to the Smash version specifically, but the image used is still in comparison to the Zero Mission ZSS where the story/context is important. And this discussion about context started before the article distanced itself from the canon.
Most people, including me, that argued the ZSS redesign (however cool I think it is) doesn't fit the original setting because that's our primary source of characterization for Samus where the design matters a whole lot. It doesn't matter in a spin-off non-canon game by a different developer.