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[Toxi]

One of the best things about the Steven Universe cast is that all the characters have unique body shapes, both male and female. You can identify any of them just from their silhouette.

I'm vying for less violence against men in video games.

I agree. You should make a thread about it!

 

[Cyber Caesar]

I'm glad I visited this thread. I like most of these redesigns.

 

[Intheflorsh]

It still separates her breasts, which appears to be a major point of contention for lots of people.

Maybe, but it still looks substantially less "painted on" than the ZS to me. Plus Samus herself is better.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

I think you are mixing up male idealization with female objectification.

No confusion here. The words "male fantasy" and "dude in loincloth" don't belong in the same sentence (unless you are not straight). Characters like Vega and Benimaru try to be "sensual" and "provocative", but the result is a more feminine appearance. The male repertoire is limited in this regard.

The whole ZSS thing- I'm failing to understand. I haven't player Metroid. So she got the Chris Redfield treatment and got enhanced proportions. Big deal. So she wears a bodysuit made of spandex under her armor. So does Tony Stark. Big deal. You call those heels? Nope. Big deal. So there are rear end shots, etc. Big deal.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Well I don't know about that...barring the third one (her hair is very boyish, it does kind of look like they were going for an androgynous look), it would be odd for anybody to be confused by those designs imo.
I'd be incredibly hard pressed to believe that CN (especially after the whole gay couple thing on Clearance...but then again, it looks like they're fine with Jeff's moms) would have allowed for RS and the crew to create a male hero character that looks like the second Pearl design, that one looks incredibly feminine to me and so does the first one (mostly due to her boobs).

Not saying that the old designs were males and that she got turned into a female. Just saying that her designs were older designs didn't exactly look feminine aside from the outfits compared to her current design.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

As a man I just have no problem with this. None whatsoever. I know it's perplexing to the opposite side.

 

[Palculator]

As a man I just have no problem with this. None whatsoever. I know it's perplexing to the opposite side.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/snk/images/9/9c/Benimaru_Nikaido.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20091121143209[IMG][/QUOTE]

What's the opposite side here? And what's supposed to be the problem with that guy?

 

[Toxi]

As a man I just have no problem with this. None whatsoever. I know it's perplexing to the opposite side.

So would Benimaru be a Rembrandt or a Michelangelo?

It's no laughing matter. The depiction of perfectly designed ideal female physiques are being defamed; it's like violating a Rembrandt or Michelangelo. I'm offended. I'm really offended here, borderline violated myself. And vulnerable.

 

[Last Hearth]

So who's stopping these women from making games and comic books based on their own designs?

Don't tell me what you'd do with other people's characters. Just go out and make products with your designs and let people decide what they want to spend their money on.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

When Marvel started their whole Marvel Now phase in 2012 they introduced her in that costume. She wore it for about 3 years. Now since the relaunch of Uncanny Avengers she has a new costume.

Bah. I think the 2012 one is better. It keeps what like about her OG costume from the early days and makes it look a helluva lot less goofy in terms of sexualization. And even so, it still manages to look sexy and somewhat functional. Ugh.

 

[Anton Sugar]

So who's stopping these women from making games and comic books based on their own designs?

Don't tell me what you'd do with other people's characters. Just go out and make products with your designs and let people decide what they want to spend their money on.

I don't think you understand how criticism works.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Not saying that the old designs were males and that she got turned into a female.

No no, I never thought you said (or implied) anything like this.

I was objecting to this

In terms of Pearl, her older designs did look way less feminine than her current design.

I really don't think Pearl's current design is more feminine than the 2nd design in this pic or her pilot design (which I actually think are much girlier-looking, and read more like female characters on a first glance).
If the third design (and maybe...the 1st design) in that picture was the only Pearl we saw for like a year or something I'd totally understand why people got confused.
As it stands it's a bit odd to me that people read some of those designs as male characters.
And like I said...(going by the company's past history) I don't think CN is open enough to allow thin/wispy effeminate/girly male hero characters in their shows just yet...so I personally don't understand how people didn't also take that into account after they read pearl as a boy.

 

[Ants]

 

[Toxi]

So who's stopping these women from making games and comic books based on their own designs?

They may not be interested in making comics or video games?

Don't tell me what you'd do with other people's characters. Just go out and make products with your designs and let people decide what they want to spend their money on.

Why shouldn't they say what they would do with other people's characters? Nobody's forcing you to read their comments or look at their fanart.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

So would Benimaru be a Rembrandt or a Michelangelo?

Probably, if you fancy men. No discrimination here bro.

 

[bone_and_sinew]

The whole ZSS thing- I'm failing to understand. I haven't player Metroid.

Then you have no feet to stand on regarding ZSS. Imagine if Ellen Ripley got sexualized and turned into a sniveling coward willing to be abused by some asshole, cause that's exactly what happened and that's what ZSS means to many Metroid fans.

 

[Trickster]

What's the opposite side here? And what's supposed to be the problem with that guy?

Body paint clothes and showing off excessive skin, basically 2 of the chief complaints when it comes to female superhero designs.

 

[captainpat]

Then you have no feet to stand on regarding ZSS. Imagine if Ellen Ripley got sexualized and turned into a sniveling coward willing to be abused by some asshole, cause that's exactly what happened and that's what ZSS means to many Metroid fans.

Was that mainly because of the zero suit or Other M?

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Then you have no feet to stand on regarding ZSS. Imagine if Ellen Ripley got sexualized and turned into a sniveling coward willing to be abused by some asshole, cause that's exactly what happened and that's what ZSS means to many Metroid fans.

Or literally ran around in her underwear, which actually happened

 

[Palculator]

Body paint clothes and showing off excessive skin, basically 2 of the chief complaints when it comes to female superhero designs.

Sure, I figured as much but I just want the original poster to be more clear in that regard. Just like this "opposite side" he's talking about.

Also, that dude looks cool. SNK designs are fun.

 

[lensoftruth]

ISO900WOMENGAMERS

Why are these people so concerned? Who is sponsering this? There's plenty of female character designs that'd adhere to there "specs", plenty that don't. Are they also ignoring the women that like the stereotypical designs too? I doubt any of my friends young girls would want "Business Suit Barbie" over "Princess Lovely Barbie"!?

This all seems aimed at the AAA pubs like EA/UBI which is even stranger you can't be that interested in games to be bothered about their output at that end of the market as we all know it's designed by 20-40 years old beards and aimed at 12-60 year old kids

 

[Galactic Fork]

As a man I just have no problem with this. None whatsoever. I know it's perplexing to the opposite side.

But if most guys in games were like that? Over and over, no matter the profession? A cop... Just like that guy. A doctor, just like that guy, but maybe with a little lab coat. A door to door dictionary sales man? Just like that guy. A power suit wearing bounty hunter? Just like that guy, but with spandex that has specially made socks for his penis and testicles. Etc...

 

[Alchemy]

There is no reason that Samus redesign couldn't have armor over it. It reminds me more of what a knight would wear under their armor, you wouldn't wear a skin suit under a shit load of metal plate unless you wanted all your skin torn off. Plus it is still semi functional as equipment, so there is a bit of a reason to be wearing it instead of the masturbation material that is the current ZSS.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Body paint clothes and showing off excessive skin, basically 2 of the chief complaints when it comes to female superhero designs.

You forgot suggestive posing. That's three for three.

 

[bone_and_sinew]

Was that mainly because of the zero suit or Other M?

At this point, there's no separation between the two really. They have conflated and symbolize the ruin of Samus' character.

Bayonetta loudly showed sexualization and empowerment don't juxtapose each other, in fact sexualization can be a form of empowerment. But SakaLucas fucked it up big time with Samus and Samus was never the character to try it with anyway.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Or literally ran around in her underwear, which actually happened

I'm kinda shocked at how disingenuous you're being here.

Crossing Eden provides actual evidence, in screenshots, of how ZSS's ass and tits have inflated (almost comically in SSB) over the last few years, and you brush it off as artistic interpretation.

It is laughable that you're really comparing ZSS to Ripley. Ripley strips down to her underwear at the end of Alien because she is about to enter cryo sleep and exhausted as fuck. She doesn't run around.

The only way this would be equivalent, is if Ripley returned in Aliens, wearing the same underwear, but with huge tits and a fat ass with a camera that often reminded you of these points.

And then the next movie, they got even bigger. And then the next movie, her waist got even smaller.

C'mon, son.

But if most guys in games were like that? Over and over, no matter the profession? A cop... Just like that guy. A doctor, just like that guy, but maybe with a little lab coat. A door to door dictionary sales man? Just like that guy. A power suit wearing bounty hunter? Just like that guy, but with spandex that has specially made socks for his penis and testicles. Etc...

This. All of these "but a man wore skintight/skimpy clothing!" posts are driving me insane.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

But if most guys in games were like that? Over and over, no matter the profession? A cop... Just like that guy. A doctor, just like that guy, but maybe with a little lab coat. A door to door dictionary sales man? Just like that guy. A power suit wearing bounty hunter? Just like that guy, but with spandex that has specially made socks for his penis and testicles. Etc...

Dude, I'm totally okay with that. Let the girls eat some cake.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

As a man I just have no problem with this. None whatsoever. I know it's perplexing to the opposite side.

Did you ever stop to think that it may because you don't live in a universe where the majority of game designers are young straight women who lack perspective?
I mean...you'd have a point if 80% of male character designs in our universe's game industry looked like the image in your post while also serving the purpose of being helpless victims or sexy things to look at...but obviously this isn't the case in reality.
In our universe Benimaru is a complete rarity who also happens to be a very stereotypical pretty boy male character who was created by straight dudes to be the token fighting effeminate/queer-looking man who traditionally masculine straight guys should want to punch for being/looking like a sissy.
I mean, you can't be serious with this comparison...it's not even remotely applicable to the situation at hand.
It's the definition of a false equivalency.

Edit: No problem owning up to the fact that he's apparently not gay, bi, or anything in-between; changed my language to reflect this.

 

[Femmeworth]

This is the same person who created arguably the best female character ever.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140524103634/metalgear/images/d/de/The_Boss.jpg[/IG]

And knows full well how a combat ready female soldier would look.
[IMG]http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130724063431/video-game-championship-wrestling/images/9/99/Meryl_MGS4.png[/IG]

Who made one of the most bad ass OLDER women ever, I mean seriously, old women in anything are rare, old women in video games are one in a million, but bad ass old women in videogames? Fucking holy grail rare.
[IMG]http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070920074129/metalgear/images/1/16/EVA_MGS4.png[/IG]

And in general has created tons of female characters that have entire individual identities, power, intelligence and cool.
[IM]http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130414110439/metalgear/images/3/3b/MPW_Strangelove.png[IM]http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/metal-gear-rising-revengeance/1/1a/220px-Sunny-Rising.png[/IG]http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060802225327/metalgear/images/1/12/Sniper_Wolf.jpg[/IG][IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-G451BHsNFtA/Uc9sZAr-OqI/AAAAAAABseY/AZ7NmpKlEs4/s484/Amanda_Valenciano_Libre+(5).jpg[/IG]
[/QUOTE]
Eww no. Kojima's depiction of women is still on the conservative side even if some of them can kick ass.

 

[Toxi]

ISO900WOMENGAMERS

Why are these people so concerned? Who is sponsering this?

I don't know, maybe you should actually read the article linked in the OP.

There's plenty of female character designs that'd adhere to there "specs", plenty that don't. Are they also ignoring the women that like the stereotypical designs too? I doubt any of my friends young girls would want "Business Suit Barbie" over "Princess Lovely Barbie"!?

Again, try actually reading the article in the OP.

Before we begin, I would like to lay some foundation.

First: I am a woman, and I do not speak for all women. I am taking my experience and the collective experiences of the hundreds-strong Women in Fantasy Illustration group* and trying to make this post as general as possible. But including everyone’s specific experience is impossible. However, I feel very confident in saying many if not most women have experienced the issues we will be discussing.

This all seems aimed at the AAA pubs like EA/UBI which is even stranger you can't be that interested in games to be bothered about their output at that end of the market as we all know it's designed by 20-40 years old beards and aimed at 12-60 year old kids

The article in the OP doesn't have any redesigns of EA or Ubisoft characters, which you would know if you actually read it.

 

[lensoftruth]

Crossing Eden provides actual evidence, in screenshots, of how ZSS's ass and tits have inflated (almost comically in SSB) over the last few years, and you brush it off as artistic interpretation.

LOL. I need pixel to polygon comparisons.

 

[Anton Sugar]

LOL. I need pixel to polygon comparisons.

Do your eyes work?

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

I'm kinda shocked at how disingenuous you're being here.

Crossing Eden provides actual evidence, in screenshots, of how ZSS's ass and tits have inflated (almost comically in SSB) over the last few years, and you brush it off as artistic interpretation.

It is laughable that you're really comparing ZSS to Ripley. Ripley strips down to her underwear at the end of Alien because she is about to enter cryo sleep and exhausted as fuck. She doesn't run around.

The only way this would be equivalent, is if Ripley returned in Aliens, wearing the same underwear, but with huge tits and a fat ass with a camera that often reminded you of these points.

And then the next movie, they got even bigger. And then the next movie, her waist got even smaller.

C'mon, son.

I'm not brushing it off, I'm pointing out how disingenous you guys are making a relatively minor part of Samus and Metroid to be. Samus was literally only running around in her ZS before getting her normal suit for the rest of the game. It's the exact same situation! In no game has her zero suit ever been a main, or even primary, or even large focus.

Look at the Smash promotion. Aside from the video where ZSS was revealed ever other video/trailer/reveal/etc that features Samus is in her normal power suit. Is the problem that they made her a separate character in Smash 4? Becuase, as I've explained, that was done across the board with all transforming/multi characters, not just for the sake of Samus fanservice.

Yes, her proportions have gotten curvier, but that still doesn't change the fact that ignoring her characterization in Other M (which I'm not arguing against, and was terrible both in and out of power suit) she's still the same.

I can understand how some people think the mere existence of ZSS somehow undermines everything else about Samus, but I've never believed one perceived negative about a character outweighs the tons of positives. I mean, out of 9 Metroid games + 4 Smash games, the fact that ZSS appears in 4 of them, with 2 instances (the Metroid games) being minor appearances won't suddenly make me stop liking her character

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Did you ever stop to think that it may because you don't live in a universe where the majority of game designers are young straight women who lack perspective?
I mean...you'd have a point if 80% of male character designs in our universe's game industry looked like the image in your post while also serving the purpose of being helpless victims or sexy things to look at...but obviously this isn't the case in reality.
In our universe Benimaru is a complete rarity who also happens to be a very stereotypical queer male character who was created by straight dudes to be the token fighting effeminate gay boy who straight dudes should want to punch for being a sissy.
I mean, you can't be serious with this comparison...it's not even remotely applicable to the situation at hand.
It's the definition of a false equivalency.

But Benimaru is not gay -quite the opposite. So post fail.

 

[Austriacus]

Samus wearing heels as a bounty hunter is so dumb. Seriously hope one day character designers stop doing that shit altogether.



The last costume makes her look like Sarah from Virtua Fighter.

Seriously this is the kind of posts that fuels the "they are gona take my games away " narrative.

Its ok that you dont like it but there are people who do. I personally do, i think they are cool. The shit she pulls with them in smash looks awesome.

Not every game should be like that tho.

 

[lensoftruth]

Do your eyes work?

Direct my eyes to "crossing eden" whatever that is.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Seriously this is the kind of posts that fuels the "they are gona take my games away " narrative.

Its ok that you dont like it but there are people who do. I personally do, i think they are cool. The shit she pulls with them in smash looks awesome.

Not every game should be like that tho.

If anything Sakurai should be commended for making them into rocket boots. Heels, that is. They have function over form

 

[Palculator]

Direct my eyes to "crossing eden" whatever that is.

Maybe read the thread next time.

And don't say "Oh but it's like 30 pages!" because that's from 1 page ago.

 

[lensoftruth]

Maybe read the thread next time.

And don't say "Oh but it's like 30 pages!" because that's from 1 page ago.

Cheers, Didn't get the "crossing eden" reference.

Hahah, whoopy-do, people are offended by that? And took screenshots no less. Surely there's some real examples out there? This is a rather bizarre non-issue - any fiction will have these or not have these and only the examples that offend certain people will be displayed.

 

[not psycho]

Seriously this is the kind of posts that fuels the "they are gona take my games away " narrative.

To be honest, people who have been over-served (I'd include myself) have to get used to the idea that, yes, there will probably have to be less games/designs aimed at you in order to make more aimed at people who have been under-served. And we'll have to accept that is not a bad thing.

This article tries to wave it away with "there are ways to please both genders in every depiction of a woman." But that is completely false. People genuinely differ in what they like, within and among gender groups. Cammy and Ivy are two of my favorite designs for any character in any game, and I know for a fact that people who don't like those designs are not going to be "pleased" by the same design as me for those characters. Not gonna happen (and it's not along gender lines either, many women like those characters). I also know that I personally don't interpret them as sex objects, they are probably the characters I imagine the most personality to in their games and like to play as. But then there are people who see sex objects. Again... not gonna please us both.

It's really not about designs being sexist imo. The more fundamental issue is that some people have been greatly under-served in designs that they like, can relate to, etc. I don't think zero suit Samus with the proportion changes is inherently sexist, nor do I think every woman in the world hates it... but I do hate the design, because it clashes terribly with how I imagine the character and world. And then I think "what if virtually every design clashed terribly with how I want to imagine the character and world." That would be awful. And that's what some people are dealing with.

Spoiler

But please don't change Cammy

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Suggestive tongue innuendo. Still not offended.

 

[captainpat]

Creepy individual toes aside, I like this redisign of the zero suit waaaaaaay better.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The only issue I see with Edens posts is the fact that the characters are cross generation(smash) and from a different dev(the M Prime examples.) Its like the difference between Snake in MGS1 and MGS2 . other than the basics, they look completely different. Even Big Boss has changed from MGS3, Spec Ops(?), Peace Walker, to MGSV. The point is that Samus looking slightly different each time is probably because of the artists rendition. You can say the same thing for Link looking different in each Smash or even Peach looking different each Smash game.

 

[Crossing Eden]

No no, I never thought you said (or implied) anything like this.

I was objecting to this


I really don't think Pearl's current design is more feminine than the 2nd design in this pic or her pilot design (which I actually think are much girlier-looking, and read more like female characters on a first glance).
If the third design (and maybe...the 1st design) in that picture was the only Pearl we saw for like a year or something I'd totally understand why people got confused.
As it stands it's a bit odd to me that people read some of those designs as male characters.
And like I said...(going by the company's past history) I don't think CN is open enough to allow thin/wispy effeminate/girly male hero characters in their shows just yet...so I personally don't understand how people didn't also take that into account after they read pearl as a boy.

Imo i think it's because of the shape of her head combined and also the hairstyle is the main factor in why she looks more feminine now compared to before. And CN is much more open to things than they were before. I mean we're talking about the same company who allowed this.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/1388625_o.gif
^ This somehow made it past the censors man. And there's the whole Stevannie thing that happened recently.

They're not super super in your face about it but they're getting there. I'd give it about two years before we're there.

Direct my eyes to "crossing eden" whatever that is.

My post was literally on the last page? Also the passive aggressive stab at my username is completely uncalled for. -_-

Cheers, Didn't get the "crossing eden" reference.

Hahah, whoopy-do, people are offended by that? And took screenshots no less. Surely there's some real examples out there? This is a rather bizarre non-issue - any fiction will have these or not have these and only the examples that offend certain people will be displayed.

So your first reaction in the face of compelling evidence against your stance was "People were offended by this? loollololol! I deem this to be a non-issue" Uh yes, for the same reason that people were offended by Lightning getting more and more sexualized overtime to the point that her breast size went up. It's pointless and it takes what is previously a character who isn't explicitly sexualized, or at least not to this extent. And no, the constant sexualization of female protagonists is not a non issue at all. It's a huge issue that the industry is still dealing with.

 

[Palculator]

The only issue I see with Edens posts is the fact that the characters are cross generation(smash) and from a different dev(the M Prime examples.) Its like the difference between Snake in MGS1 and MGS2 . other than the basics, they look completely different. Even Big Boss has changed from MGS3, Spec Ops(?), Peace Walker, to MGSV. The point is that Samus looking slightly different each time is probably because of the artists rendition. You can say the same thing for Link looking different in each Smash or even Peach looking different each Smash game.

Portable Ops. Spec Ops is that shooter by 2K and Yager.

 

[lensoftruth]

My post was literally on the last page? Also the passive aggressive stab at my username is completely uncalled for. -_-

Not seen your post or your username, so no stab dude.

 

[Ants]

Creepy individual toes aside, I like this redisign of the zero suit waaaaaaay better.

It's a bit much. That's riiiiight over the line of "too armored". At a certain point, you have to ask "If I'm gonna design this to be so armored up, what's the point of having a Zero Suit in the first place?"

Now it's just Suit.

Spoiler

Also she probably can't bend her Federation-helmet knees.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The only issue I see with Edens posts is the fact that the characters are cross generation(smash) and from a different dev(the M Prime examples.) Its like the difference between Snake in MGS1 and MGS2 . other than the basics, they look completely different. Even Big Boss has changed from MGS3, Spec Ops(?), Peace Walker, to MGSV. The point is that Samus looking slightly different each time is probably because of the artists rendition. You can say the same thing for Link looking different in each Smash or even Peach looking different each Smash game.

You don't see the issue with the artists rendition just happening to make the character bustier literally every time? You really think that's unintentional? Also here's the evolution of big boss. He's incredibly consistent.

 

[lensoftruth]

Lightning getting more and more sexualized overtime to the point that her breast size went up.

Don't know who lightening is, I'll take you're word for it.

It's a huge issue that the industry is still dealing with.

Clearly seems to bother people who are looking for these things. Why is it such a problem when theres so many examples of designs that follow these guidlelines?

 

[KingV]

Creepy individual toes aside, I like this redisign of the zero suit waaaaaaay better.

This one is cool, I always sort of figured the zero suit was kind of cat suit because the armor was meant to fit snugly and feel like a second skin, hence why it was so good. The bulkier designs (leather jacket, buckles, and so on) kind of ruin that, but would make sense if she wore something like that when she wasn't in and out of her armor. This one actually kind of improves the high tech nature of the suit by making it look like a secondary component of it or something.

Also, I would love to play a game with exaggerated dick and ball physics. Especially if it was a serious game....

This should be a cheat mode in the last of us, actually. All infected have wildly swinging sacks.