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[speculawyer]

Are there any good podcasts out there that would cover this debate/the election in general? Live in Europe so hard to watch them.

Majority report has a podcast with full debate &commentary. Also post debate commentary. It is leftie commentary.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Well done.

Now could you please elaborate on how cost-of-living data (source please) can be used to judge specific economic policy in California?

We could probably have a 400 page thread just on the cause of the real estate crisis in Northern California. And while it would be interesting, and nothing would get solved, I do have to get up for work tomorrow. So I'm probably going to be bowing out of this thread fairly soon. Plus I probably don't have the kind of source you would be satisfied with, my experience is just from living here.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I hope Fox News realizes that they just helped out Donald Trump immensely.

Fox News have been sabotaging the Republicans for years now. This is because Roger Ailes is actually pushing his own personal agenda which only vaguely aligns with the overall Republican agenda on a few edge cases. Most of what Ailes wants is understandably so far away from normal human beings want. What's baffling is how the Republicans have gotten so dependent on Fox News that they are no longer able to exist without that network nor are they aware that Fox News is actually destroying their party.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

lol I knew I shouldn't have bothered

 

[Lime_In_Da_Coconut]

We could probably have a 400 page thread just on the cause of the real estate crisis in Northern California. And while it would be interesting, and nothing would get solved, I do have to get up for work tomorrow. So I'm probably going to be bowing out of this thread fairly soon. Plus I probably don't have the kind of source you would be satisfied with, my experience is just from living here.

Bailing right after being called out.

There's a shocker there.

 

[Fenderputty]

Well, SD is south of LA and is the 3rd largest city!

Orange county is conservative, but it's not the same as Mississippi conservative. A lot of OC is simply rich dudes wanting to get more tax breaks and less gov't welfare cuz fuck it, they got theirs. They aren't that socially conservative and religious.

I work in and live on top of the OC. Half my family lives in the OC. There's a good share of social conservatives. It might not be Mississippi, but it's pretty red. I don't talk politics at all while at work and hold my tongue quite often.

 

[obin_gam]

is it on youtube?

 

[speculawyer]

As a rare conservative here, I thought Rubio and surprisingly Huckabee had a good night. Cruz, Kasich were decent. Bush was blah, as was Walker.

Trump was horrific and his poll numbers will likely drop quickly despite his loyal followers voting him winner on Drudge polls.

The only one who did worse today than Trump was Lindsey Graham who sounded awful and looked fucking constipated and in dire need of a bathroom. I was half expecting him to be gone after each commercial break.

Jindal and Fiorina were the only two that did a decent job at the kids table. She did well in interview with Chris Mathews on Harball as well. Perhaps she gets enough of a bump to be at the adult table next debate.

I think you will be surprised by how others rated Trump's performance.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Bailing right after being called out.

There's a shocker there.

The real shocker is how you expect me to sit here and argue on an internet forum for the next 3 hours. Call it what you want, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[danthefan]

Majority report has a podcast with full debate &commentary. Also post debate commentary. It is leftie commentary.

Thanks will check it out.

 

[speculawyer]

We could probably have a 400 page thread just on the cause of the real estate crisis in Northern California. And while it would be interesting, and nothing would get solved, I do have to get up for work tomorrow. So I'm probably going to be bowing out of this thread fairly soon. Plus I probably don't have the kind of source you would be satisfied with, my experience is just from living here.

Real estate crisis? What?

 

[Black Mamba]

I work in and live on top of the OC. Half my family lives in the OC. There's a good share of social conservatives. It might not be Mississippi, but it's pretty red. I don't talk politics at all while at work and hold my tongue quite often.

Social conservatives exist in San Francisco, too. I'm not going to ever argue they don't exist.

But even a lot of the social conservatives aren't the same. Take gay marriage. I'd say it's a lot more likely someone in the OC who is against gay marriage kind of stops at that. But someone in, say, the South thinks not only should it not be allowed, but homosexuality should be outlawed.

Hell, remember that poll in like Missouri on interracial marriage!? No way it's near that in the OC. Not even close.

Cali is very diverse, no doubt. But I'd say the average conservative is not as far right here and even the average social conservative isn't as far right on social issues as the South and other parts.

 

[OuterLimits]

Personally do you feel good about any of these people being president? Even the conservatives I know seem to be down on the whole group. Who are you pulling for?

Not really pulling for anyone at the moment. Not a fan of Bush, Trump or Rick Perry. But yeah, the options are somewhat mediocre. I think Rubio has the most potential in the long term although perhaps not this election cycle.

I honestly think Democrats have the same kind of lethargic feeling towards their candidates as well. Clinton doesn't get as many people excited like Obama does.

 

[linsivvi]

Stick near UCI and you'll be fine. The rest of the County indeed sucks.

 

[border]

Watching the full debate on YouTube now -- wow, the moderators are all over Trump. Every question directed to Trump is aggressive and intent on exposing his flaws. I think he did a pretty great of handling a hostile room. Well at least "great" in the sense that he knows how to deflect and play to a crowd, not "great" in the sense that he's a master of debate and rhetoric.

I guess this very obvious revelation didn't occur to me until tonight, but he can basically blackmail Republicans into supporting him by threatening to run as a third party. If they don't line up and offer him support, then he will torpedo whoever does get the nomination. I'm surprised that our democracy has existed for 200+ years without anyone else pulling this sort of power play. I was probably 12 years old when Ross Perot ran -- did he do it merely to spite Republicans, or did he legitimately think he had a shot at the presidency?

 

[obin_gam]

Watching the full debate on YouTube now -- wow, the moderators are all over Trump. Every question directed to Trump is aggressive and intent on exposing his flaws. I think he did a pretty great of handling a hostile room. Well at least "great" in the sense that he knows how to deflect and play to a crowd, not "great" in the sense that he's a master of debate and rhetoric.

I guess this very obvious revelation didn't occur to me until tonight, but he can basically blackmail Republicans into supporting him by threatening to run as a third party. If they don't line up and offer him support, then he will torpedo whoever does get the nomination. I'm surprised that our democracy has existed for 200+ years without anyone else pulling this sort of power play.

Where? All the links I've seen has had their videos removed

 

[AstroNut325]

For those that missed it, you can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E1qbqEh_ww

Thank you. This is highly appreciated.

 

[davepoobond]

Biggest loser of the night was Rand Paul. He looked so tired and frustrated for the entire night.

I laughed when Paul tried to accuse Trump of being corrupt because he gave money to candidates to get favors. Then Trump struck back saying, "Yeah, and I also gave money to you".

that was funny. paul rolling his eyes to christie during the 9/11 invoking was great, too.


everyone said trump didnt give them money though pretty much. i wonder if thats actually true

 

[border]

Where? All the links I've seen has had their videos removed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E1qbqEh_ww

It's working for me now, but I'm not sure if it's been taken down.

 

[SmackCrackleNPop]

The difference is that California conservatives aren't the same breed as the "God talks to me" types that you might find more commonly in the rest of the country.

In Orange County at least, it's more foreign policy and economics than social issues.

Not too many Republicans I know would argue too hard about climate change either or separation of church and state.

We can all agree that the Ducks are the best hockey team though.

 

[Mathunilx]

Just to be clear, I would probably not be willing to change my mind that the problem remains unsolved after reading one study, yes. I might be able to agree that the problem is solved under some narrow set of assumptions made by the paper. I certainly would not be convinced that it is a future-proof model of economics that can be adapted to any geography, any culture, any demographic, and any political environment. Economic theory is based largely on empirical data and studying history, and you can't study the effects of things that haven't happened yet.

If we were talking about a mathematical paper I would certainly believe it, because each step can be derived from the previous step with no unknown variables.

This is true. cultural models change from place to place based on the things you mentioned. Economics aim to adapt to those things.

However, economics is not sorely based on distant history, it's based on how our current model reacted to different scenarios. We know what happens when government spends money (http://www.investopedia.com/exam-guide/cfa-level-1/macroeconomics/multiplier-effect.asp). And we know a lot of things about the current economic issues. However, I would recommend reading the IMF study, because there is a lot of math and explaining in there and you can easily retrace every step. It's not as useless a study as you might believe.

And there will always be unknown variables. You can have a company that can output 100 pieces a day every day for a year and then that might fall to 98 because some people get sick. It would mean that you can anticipate a production of 95 to 100 units a day safely. Economics kinda work the same way. You can't be 100% sure but you can judge reasonably well.

You are assuming that all individuals are open to a change of perspective. Go to Rick Santorum and change his 'opinion' on personhood at conception. To the individuals saying that racism is a thing of the past. Marriage equality should be a states rights issue. Climate change, evolution, vaccines causing autism, etc. etc. A very large portion of this stuff is based in something that is impermeable to facts, reason, and evidence. If you are going to continually hold these views and hide behind, hey bro it's my opinion you have to respect it...well sorry no.

The thing is that Rick Santorum is as much the result of his gene predisposition as he is social polarization. He sees the world one way and all people do is challenge it crudely by making fun of him, which is why he will go back to his "bubble".

And yes, I do believe that it is possible to change his opinion. My friend was a hardcore conservative who believed gays were the devil. After years of hanging out with me and my friends he ended up changing his mind. The problem though is that it's a long and complicated process, and I know that it's far easier to just tell people they're stupid and send them studies or things like that to make them feel stupid. That doesn't work though. Beliefs can change, but it requires a lot of hard work.

And just to be clear, I do not agree with Rich Santorum on any issue, it's just that I see how polarized the debates have become and I don't see it stopping unless we take a new approach.

 

[Mathunilx]

The real shocker is how you expect me to sit here and argue on an internet forum for the next 3 hours. Call it what you want, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Just want to point out that this post is probably going to polarize people that are against you and it will paint their view of people from the right as people who bail out because they can't argue.

Even if that's not the case, it won't matter at all. Sociology at work here.

As for the debate, I felt like trump was really good at playing the crowd. Politics is an image thing and he comes off as confident and honest. Even if I think that most of what he says is very ignorant, this will give him points because the public and people who don't really know much about politics will like him. It's sad because other than his charisma, he pretty much has nothing.

 

[Fenderputty]

Social conservatives exist in San Francisco, too. I'm not going to ever argue they don't exist.

But even a lot of the social conservatives aren't the same. Take gay marriage. I'd say it's a lot more likely someone in the OC who is against gay marriage kind of stops at that. But someone in, say, the South thinks not only should it not be allowed, but homosexuality should be outlawed.

Hell, remember that poll in like Missouri on interracial marriage!? No way it's near that in the OC. Not even close.

Cali is very diverse, no doubt. But I'd say the average conservative is not as far right here and even the average social conservative isn't as far right on social issues as the South and other parts.

It's probably confirmation bias on my part. I wasn't really trying to counter your point either. I'm just shocked at some of the shit I hear. The APMnext to me talks about his best friend being hospitalized for three weeks. He used to have no insurance. Obamacare saved his family and this dude and his sick friend hate it. I've never been surrounded by people like this before. Great job otherwise lol

 

[AstroNut325]

HOLY SH!!!!!

Fox really had it out for Trump tonight! And he came out leading in the polls as a result? Massive fail AHOY!

 

[OuterLimits]

I agree with the majority of this. Except trump. He got railroaded and countered in the exact way he got his #'s. I wish there were more Kasichs on the right. Would be good for actual conversation

You may be right. However, I do think the majority of trump supporters are those who hate the GOP leadership more than Democrats. I could see Cruz starting to gain traction with Trump voters since he is being critical of McConnell, Boehner and other leaders.

It is much easier to say you will vote for Trump in a poll than actually following through with it on election day.

 

[mattiewheels]

So when they asked that question about who wasn't ruling out running as an independent...is that a question that ever gets asked at these debates? Or was it used just to rub Trump nose in shit?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It is much easier to say you will vote for Trump in a poll than actually following through with it on election day.

People believed that about Schwarzeneggar too. They didn't take him seriously either.

That's 1.5 terms* Governor of California Schwarzeneggar to you.

*He was first elected halfway through Gray Davis's recall-shortened term.

 

[Oddduck]

Trump attacking Fox News on Twitter right now.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Trump attacking Fox News on Twitter right now.

Go to sleep Trump, you are drunk lol

 

[speculawyer]

Trump attacking Fox News on Twitter right now.

This is hilarious. Fox news came out with the daggers to shiv Trump in the back. But it backfired and peasants are storming the Facebook pages of Fox news.

 

[davepoobond]

So when they asked that question about who wasn't ruling out running as an independent...is that a question that ever gets asked at these debates? Or was it used just to rub Trump nose in shit?

it was a snub.


as soon as he said yes, fox news put their anti-trump campaign into action

 

[ISOM]

People believed that about Schwarzeneggar too. They didn't take him seriously either.

That's 1.5 terms* Governor of California Schwarzeneggar to you.

*He was first elected halfway through Gray Davis's recall-shortened term.

It's much easier to live in fantasies too. I will start to believe the hype that he could win against HIllary when I actually see him well polling well against her.

 

[Officerrob]

Trump attacking Fox News on Twitter right now.

Hilarious yet really stupid.

 

[PopeReal]

Trump attacking Fox News on Twitter right now.

Fox news getting destroyed. They did come off as complete fucking idiots.

 

[Moff]

can't they just invite Trump to the democrat debate as well?

 

[Clydefrog]

Biggest loser of the night was Rand Paul. He looked so tired and frustrated for the entire night.

I laughed when Paul tried to accuse Trump of being corrupt because he gave money to candidates to get favors. Then Trump struck back saying, "Yeah, and I also gave money to you".

Rand Paul is a different kind of Republican. He stands up against Tronald Dump.

 

[watershed]

Trump isn't wrong though. It's quite odd to see an entire network collude to take down one presidential candidate.

 

[Gnome]

Trump isn't wrong though. It's quite odd to see an entire network collude to take down one presidential candidate.

He's revealing Fox News for what it is, they created him after all. They're probably honestly scared of him.

 

[aspiegamer]

So when they asked that question about who wasn't ruling out running as an independent...is that a question that ever gets asked at these debates? Or was it used just to rub Trump nose in shit?

It was 100% a trap to put him in a corner from the instant they started. There's no one single other question they could have put up that would have divided him so severely from the rest of the field. They knew what his answer would be, and how the other 9 would react. It wouldn't shock me if some were warned ahead of time about it. Trump doesn't have to give a shit, though. He doesn't need any conservative money and he'll stay in the race as long as it's good for his personal brand and he thinks he can broker power from it. If he honestly thinks he's the best candidate for President he'll run third party because he'll have convinced himself of it.

It's just assumed in the US that you never run third party unless you're either a total clown of a person desperate for attention, or painfully wealthy with a point to prove. There are people that want to make an ideological statement with no ulterior motives that want to exist as a third party and you see them on the list of 50 names you've never heard of on the bottom of the ballot. I generally assume good faith with that lot. Anyone who polls under 1% I salute for their dedication. The notable third-party people (anyone you would ever recognize by name) make up the first two categories, though.

Perot was the later of serious and got Clinton elected in 1992. Nader (FUCKING NADER) was of the first inclination and handed W the election in 2000. I will never not hate that man for what he did. Fuck Nader.

 

[danthefan]

If Ted Cruz was born in Canada, and his parents weren't on military duty there, how is he eligible to be POTUS?

Thought you had to be born in the US?

 

[thepotatoman]

If Ted Cruz was born in Canada, and his parents weren't on military duty there, how is he eligible to be POTUS?

Thought you had to be born in the US?

You have to be a "natural born citizen". It has never been defined in court what that actually means.

 

[pigeon]

If Ted Cruz was born in Canada, and his parents weren't on military duty there, how is he eligible to be POTUS?

Thought you had to be born in the US?

All children born to Americans are American at birth. Military duty isn't required.

 

[danthefan]

You have to be a "natural born citizen". It has never been defined in court what that actually means.

All children born to Americans are American at birth. Military duty isn't required.

Ok thanks, didn't know that. I thought you had to be born in the US.

 

[davepoobond]

Ok thanks, didn't know that. I thought you had to be born in the US.

By blood or if you're born on American ground you are a citizen

 

[Toxi]

Archiving all of Futurezombie's posts for later, because I still can't stop laughing at this shit.

 

[Averon]

Trump is brass, unapologetic, hate political correctness, never backs down, and is rich.

Trump is the very ideal Fox News and the GOP has been cultivating for the pass 10-15 years, if not longer. Fox News and the GOP have for years feed their audience and voters the notion that the aspects Donald Trump is known for is what's required to be a strong, tough leader.

Fox and the GOP are trying to get the piss out of the pool and (unsurprisingly) are failing spectacularly at it.

 

[ICKE]

I love that attitude even if he is a total loon, Trump simply will not take shit from anyone.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It's much easier to live in fantasies too. I will start to believe the hype that he could win against HIllary when I actually see him well polling well against her.

I don't know that Trump can beat Hillary now at this moment, but the Democrats haven't even begun to campaign yet because Hillary is basically running unopposed for time being. A Swift Boat incident could be enough to put Trump in the race against Hillary, assuming he can get past the hellbent efforts of the RNC and Fox News to prevent his nomination.

can't they just invite Trump to the democrat debate as well?

Well we all know he would show up if they invited him.

They should invite him. I want to see Hillary's reaction to his statement that she and Bill showed up at his third wedding because he gave her money. Trump is many things but disloyal to his friends isn't one of them and he's reportedly good friends with the Clintons despite his bluster tonight about having them in his pockets.

 

[Officerrob]

Trump is the definition of the Republican embrace of the tea party coming back to bite them

 

[mattiewheels]

It was 100% a trap to put him in a corner from the instant they started. There's no one single other question they could have put up that would have divided him so severely from the rest of the field.

Definitely seemed like a trap. But boy does this strategy backfire for Fox, since his appeal is directly proportional to his appearing to be silenced by the media and not being in anyone's pocket. Way to go, guys, your Frankenstein's on the loose now.