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[BashNasty]

We totally need a Mario Maker Direct so they can clarify all this doubts on the physics. The science side of GAF is doing a splendid work on trying to discover the real physics in Super Mario Maker but we need official confirmation.

Also, thread title is A+++

It's been clear since the treehouse stream that the actual physics of how Mario moves are the same across all four styles, beyond the initially incorrect title proclaiming that the physics were different in each style I'm not sure why this has sparked so much debate.

Mario will have different abilities in each style (wall jumps, ability to pick up shells, ect), but his movement physics will stay the same.

 

[Simbabbad]

beyond the initially incorrect title proclaiming that the physics were different in each style I'm not sure why this has sparked so much debate

Except nearly all the people who played the game in the thread say the physics are different. And nearly all the people who say the physics are the same haven't played the game.

September is going to be interesting.

 

[jimi_dini]

It's only bonus content because they decide it is so they can nickel and dime people. It shouldn't be. It should be available to everyone that bought the game.

First of all, this amiibo content in Super Mario Maker can be unlocked regulary. That was confirmed various times.

Second, I personally don't see this at all.
I just bought Yoshi's Woolly world. And 2 Yoshi amiibos.

Why do you ask?

Because I wanted to get the extra skins? Nope. Because I actually wanted the amiibos. Because they are really cute. They unlock extra skins inside the game, which are basically pointless? Now that's nice. Would I buy those skins? Nope. Would I buy an Amiibo to get those skins unlocked? Nope. It's simply a bonus, that I'm getting for buying the Amiibo.

Nickel + diming would be to sell those skins for let's say 0.50EUR each in the eShop. Or would you be happy, that you could unlock the skins without buying Amiibos?

Maybe it's weird to see it that way, but that's how I see it.

Let's just look at the current amiibo support:

Mario Kart 8: racer suits
Smash Bros: train your amiibo
Hyrule Warriors: get items every day and 1 extra weapon for Link
Splatoon: play single player maps again beating special challenges to get exclusive in-game gear
Captain Toad: hide and seek 8-bit toad search challenges
Rainbow Curse: basically make the game easier once per day
Codename Steam: 4 amiibos supported for extra team members
Xenoblade 3DS: get points/stars to unlock bonus content (which can be gotten via streetpass or coins too)
Woolly World: get special Yoshi skins for each Amiibo and the plush Yoshis unlock a second copy in the game
(i hope i haven't forgotten a game)

Is that a problem? I would say no. Especially when the current industry-standard is to sell single missions here and there for a few bucks each. Without giving me something physical, that I actually want.

You could probably complain about the single Hyrule Warriors weapon. I personally don't have an actual problem with that, simply because Hyrule Warriors has insane amount of content already and I'm using the master sword anyway.

If you actually buy an amiibo just to get one of those minor features, then I don't know what to say. I sure wouldn't. I would probably buy Shulk at some point. Why? Because I want to get extra points/stars? Nope. Because I actually want Shulk. I got like 700 points/stars via streetpass anyway.

Or let's look at those timed Virtual Console demos. Would you buy an Amiibo to unlock that? I sure wouldn't. But it's nice that I get 3 minutes of playtime just because I own one of those.

Or do you also complain about for example games, where you can unlock extra stuff in case you already own the predecessor? There are quite a few of those. And you could see it for those the same way. "What? I'm supposed to buy the predecessor although the content is on disc? Rip-off!!!". I see it - at least for the games that I own and that have that feature - exactly the same as the amiibo support. I'm simply getting something minor on top.

Predecessor/other game unlockables:
Professor Layton: entering the key of another Layton game gets you additional content
Tales of Xillia 2: unlock certain costumes in case you got a saved game of Xillia 1 + Graces
Darksiders 2: bonus items when you played the predecessor
Metroid Prime 1: NES Metroid + Fusion suit when you connect Metroid Fusion via GBA cable
Zero Mission: unlock all pictures including additional concept art when linking with Prime or Fusion, not sure

 

[Durante]

Let me ask you this: which opinion would you trust more, the opinion of someone who plays a game, or of someone who watches the guy play the game?

It depends on what arguments are being presented and the reasoning behind those arguments.

If the "player" says "it felt like A", while the "watcher" says "I measured N pixels after X seconds, and M pixels after Y more seconds, therefore it's B" -- and it checks out -- I'm more inclined to believe the latter.

Note that I really have no personal stake in this debate on either side.

 

[Me_Marcadet]

First of all, this amiibo content in Super Mario Maker can be unlocked regulary. That was confirmed various times.

Second, I personally don't see this at all.

Nobody complained, I just called the use of amiibo exclusive content disgusting and I was called out. I was misinformed and didn't know that you can unlock every sprites through the game. I have told many times that I don't mind them if you can unlock them without amiibos.
This whole derail started because someone told me that I don't understand the situation with amiibo and that's why I don't like them. Like if you are well informed, the only outcome is to be glad they exist. That's bullshit. Everyone as a different set of standard and expectations and nobody disrespected amiibo lover like you. You find them fine and don't mine the exclusive content, good for you, that doesn't mean it gives you the right to judge my sentiment against the whole thing. You and I can vote with our wallet. I hope this derail will end because it's annoying and clearly not the topic. It's just great that there's no amiibo exclusive feature in SMM and I think we can all agree that if every amiibo bonus created were also unlockable by everyone, it would be the best thing possible.

It depends on what arguments are being presented and the reasoning behind those arguments.

If the "player" says "it felt like A", while the "watcher" says "I measured N pixels after X seconds, and M pixels after Y more seconds, therefore it's B" -- and it checks out -- I'm more inclined to believe the latter.

Note that I really have no personal stake in this debate on either side.

Exactly, you can analyse and tell a lot of technical things by just watching a video.

It's been clear since the treehouse stream that the actual physics of how Mario moves are the same across all four styles, beyond the initially incorrect title proclaiming that the physics were different in each style I'm not sure why this has sparked so much debate.

Mario will have different abilities in each style (wall jumps, ability to pick up shells, ect), but his movement physics will stay the same.

A lot of people who played the game are 100% certain that the physics are different.

 

[Simbabbad]

If the "player" says "it felt like A", while the "watcher" says "I measured N pixels after X seconds, and M pixels after Y more seconds, therefore it's B" -- and it checks out -- I'm more inclined to believe the latter.

The problem is, again, we don't know user input from the videos. We can't know which direction is taken in the air in SMB style, and we don't know if/when the user presses the run button in any style. So anybody can read what he wants from the videos. I'd rather trust what the people who actually played the game say, because they know their input and actually experienced the game.

 

[maxcriden]

Sites are reporting that the Mystery Mushroom characters can also be unlocked through the 100-Mario Challenge mode.

So, uh, there you go.

I believe that comes from the PR from E3, specifically the fact sheet, which I think was discussed earlier in the thread. The language indicates the 100 Mario Challenge will unlock *some* characters, but it's not entirely clear if they're the same ones you get through amiibo. I hope so, though.

 

[optimiss]

Ugh. Apologists are the worst. Yeah I'm the one being greedy, not the companies making people fork out extra cash for something already done and completed in the game. Suuuure. It would be very easy to flip a switch and make all that content available to everyone. They don't because they can make extra money by locking it. It's only bonus content because they decide it is so they can nickel and dime people. It shouldn't be. It should be available to everyone that bought the game. Bonus content should be what they work on and add post launch. But alas what should be is not what happens in this industry today. They can make some extra money from these crappy practices, and what's worse is you've even got people defending it.

You do understand that the video game industry is a business, right? They make their money by nickel and diming customers.They design that "extra" content to be extra, regardless of how it is delivered. So really I guess you are just mad that they developed the main game and bonus content in parallel?

 

[piratethingy]

Ugh. Apologists are the worst. Yeah I'm the one being greedy, not the companies making people fork out extra cash for something already done and completed in the game. Suuuure. It would be very easy to flip a switch and make all that content available to everyone. They don't because they can make extra money by locking it. It's only bonus content because they decide it is so they can nickel and dime people. It shouldn't be. It should be available to everyone that bought the game. Bonus content should be what they work on and add post launch. But alas what should be is not what happens in this industry today. They can make some extra money from these crappy practices, and what's worse is you've even got people defending it.

You are living in a fantasy world and do not understand what it means to be a publicly traded company with shareholders to answer to.

 

[Red Devil]

From what I can see on videos, yes, it looks like it's identical to the original.

Regarding a direct to appease all the doubts, don't expect any until 3 weeks before it releases. Although to me evry critical point has been clarified already. The only thing I would like but I don't think will happen is if one could modify what the Hammer Brothers throw like you can modify Bill Blasters.

 

[jonezer4]

Ugh. Apologists are the worst. Yeah I'm the one being greedy, not the companies making people fork out extra cash for something already done and completed in the game. Suuuure. It would be very easy to flip a switch and make all that content available to everyone.

Why doesn't iTunes just give me all their musics? I know it's already done and completed and sitting on a server somewhere. It would be very easy for Apple to flip a switch and make all their music downloadable for me. But no, instead it's like, they want to make me give them money first.

It's almost as if they're a business and are selling a product?

Amiibos, and the digital content they unlock, are a product. It's essentially a license you purchase to make extra content accessible for you. Whether it's sitting on the disc, or a server, or the moon is completely irrelevant.

If they don't sell Amiibos and make a gazillion dollars, they don't bother spending the money and resources adding all the Amiibo DLC. The two are intrinsically connected (the commodified plastic toys and the digital content they unlock) and likely wouldn't exist without the other.

 

[schlongdog]

SMB and SMW jumps are exactly the same...

 

[Machinehead]

I'm loving all the SMW love here <3
Gamechanger. I remember hearing it, but it is nice to have it confirmed. Makes the game a lot cooler for that.

 

[TheMoon]

SMB and SMW jumps are exactly the same...

We've already slaughtered each other over this. Let's just wait 6 more weeks and play it ourselves lol.

 

[Simbabbad]

SMB and SMW jumps are exactly the same...

Old, and nope, what this shows is that SMB and SMW full speed, full height jumps are the same. As already debated, this says nothing about in-air manoeuvrability or slipperiness, which could have been set to evoke the original games. This doesn't prove that physics are the same.

(also, does anybody have a graph which compares full speed/height jumps of actual SMB and SMW?)

 

[The Boat]

Old, and nope, what this shows is that SMB and SMW full speed, full height jumps are the same. As already debated, this says nothing about in-air manoeuvrability or slipperiness, which could have been set to evoke the original games. This doesn't prove that physics are the same.

(also, does anybody have a graph which compares full speed/height jumps of actual SMB and SMW?)

From what I played, the maneuverability seemed the same across all games. I tried jumping at different speeds and turning left mid air and Mario always reacted the same way, the only difference was the the SMB sprite didn't turn backwards.

 

[maxcriden]

From what I played, the maneuverability seemed the same across all games. I tried jumping at different speeds and turning left mid air and Mario always reacted the same way, the only difference was the the SMB sprite didn't turn backwards.

I'm trying to remember if I only played SMB levels or SMB3 as well. I think it was both, and I want to say they felt the same to me...but in all fairness I think I only played 2-3 levels and this was during the Best Buy event about 1.5 months ago so I don't remember terribly well. I am of the mind that the physics are the same across all the games with some different abilities, though.

 

[Simbabbad]

From what I played, the maneuverability seemed the same across all games. I tried jumping at different speeds and turning left mid air and Mario always reacted the same way, the only difference was the the SMB sprite didn't turn backwards.

Some other people also played the game and deliberately checked if physics were the same, and came to the conclusion they clearly weren't, and that each physics fit well their according style.

Doesn't mean they're right, and that's why I think the most plausible explanation is something in-between: physics would be close to each other, but keep a few particularities to fit the games. It'd fit all the testimonies.

We don't have much longer to wait anyway, and the really important thing is that absolutely nobody complained the physics didn't feel natural for the games. Honestly, at this point I don't even have a preference for the outcome, I trust Nintendo chose for the best.

 

[The Boat]

I'm trying to remember if I only played SMB levels or SMB3 as well. I think it was both, and I want to say they felt the same to me...but in all fairness I think I only played 2-3 levels and this was during the Best Buy event about 1.5 months ago so I don't remember terribly well. I am of the mind that the physics are the same across all the games with some different abilities, though.

Some other people also played the game and deliberately checked if physics were the same, and came to the conclusion they clearly weren't, and that each physics fit well their according style.

Doesn't mean they're right, and that's why I think the most plausible explanation is something in-between: physics would be close to each other, but keep a few particularities to fit the games. It'd fit all the testimonies.

We don't have much longer to wait anyway, and the really important thing is that absolutely nobody complained the physics didn't feel natural for the games. Honestly, at this point I don't even have a preference for the outcome, I trust Nintendo chose for the best.

Yeah, I'm not claiming I'm right, just sharing my experience. I actually filmed it, but I don't have the videos with me.
And yes, everything feels great, so either way, it's not a problem.

 

[Portugeezer]

IGN is fucking useless. In their lets play they get asked about it and they're not even sure when they're playing.

 

[TheMoon]

IGN is fucking useless. In their lets play they get asked about it and they're not even sure when they're playing.

All this does is tell me that it doesn't matter.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

IGN is fucking useless. In their lets play they get asked about it and they're not even sure when they're playing.

lmao

 

[Piers]

Old, and nope, what this shows is that SMB and SMW full speed, full height jumps are the same. As already debated, this says nothing about in-air manoeuvrability or slipperiness, which could have been set to evoke the original games. This doesn't prove that physics are the same.

(also, does anybody have a graph which compares full speed/height jumps of actual SMB and SMW?)

Think I mentioned this before, but if the physics were separate between styles then it should technically be impossible for the game to show Mario's recorded movement data during editing since one jump from A to B is going to change depending on air control.
(Amongst other aspects like acceleration speed to a run, which is very quick in SMW iirc)

 

[Simbabbad]

Think I mentioned this before, but if the physics were separate between styles then it should technically be impossible for the game to show Mario's recorded movement data during editing since one jump from A to B is going to change depending on air control.
(Amongst other aspects like acceleration speed to a run, which is very quick in SMW iirc)

Why not? The recorded movement data is wiped anyway when you change style since styles have different movement properties (spin jump, wall jump, etc.), different physics wouldn't change anything.

 

[TFRazorsaw]

SMB and SMW jumps are exactly the same...

am I the only one who notices that the first Troopa is a one tile further to the right in the SMB map?

 

[Salbug]

am I the only one who notices that the first Troopa is a one tile further to the right in the SMB map?

it's kinda hard for me to tell with the transition. >.>

 

[TFRazorsaw]

so they do.

that still doesn't seem conclusive. The movement data could just be carried over because of the style change in the menu and being player input.

 

[TheMoon]

that gif is just all around terrible for anything.

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

am I the only one who notices that the first Troopa is a one tile further to the right in the SMB map?

As is the ground. It's the same distance regardless.

Also LOL at this thread returning. This should be fun.

 

[Simbabbad]

This should be fun.

It'll certainly return at 9/11, and it'll be hilarious, regardless of the outcome.

 

[RagnarokX]

Old, and nope, what this shows is that SMB and SMW full speed, full height jumps are the same. As already debated, this says nothing about in-air manoeuvrability or slipperiness, which could have been set to evoke the original games. This doesn't prove that physics are the same.

(also, does anybody have a graph which compares full speed/height jumps of actual SMB and SMW?)

Full speed jump arcs from all 4 games:

SMB:

SMB3:

SMW:

NSMBU:

Put 'em all together:

SMB3 is most surprising as it's higher and much longer than the other games. SMB is less high and much shorter. SMW and NSMBU are very close. SMW jumps slightly higher but they both get about the same distance.

Every style in Mario maker is identical to the NSMBU line:

Also, you misunderstand my argument. The premise of this thread was that each style uses the physics from their respective games. This is definitely not true. The jump arcs are identical to NSMBU; and the air control in SMW, which is a huge part of the game's identity, is absent (we know for certain that the player doesn't release the run button because yoshi doesn't extend his tongue and none of the footage shows SMW air control). It's possible that there are minor harder to see differences between styles, but I'm doubtful of that because there's no video evidence to support that and they didn't make changes for important things like jump distance/height and air control.

am I the only one who notices that the first Troopa is a one tile further to the right in the SMB map?

The maps don't line up because the player jumped at different points. The point of the image is to compare the jumps, so they have to be lined up based on where the jumps started, not the topography of the level.

so they do.

that still doesn't seem conclusive. The movement data could just be carried over because of the style change in the menu and being player input.

That's not the same jump with the style changed. They did a jump in SMB style and I took a screen of the ghost trail. Then they changed it to SMW and did another jump and I took a screen of the ghost trail that one left. Two different jumps. That's why the levels aren't lined up.

that gif is just all around terrible for anything.

?

 

[Simbabbad]

Thank you, that's actually very interesting. I have always felt NSMBU was pretty close to SMW, but here it's obvious (NSMBU is just a bit more "tense", like SMB3). I wonder how it compares with NSMBW (then again, it's mostly speed and air manoeuvrability that was different in NSMBW).

I'm surprised SMB is actually pretty close to SMW and NSMBU, it's the exact same before the peak. And SMB3 being that different from the rest is unexpected. Then again, SMB3 was designed so you couldn't run at full speed most of the time, to avoid you flying over everything, so it makes sense.

Also, you misunderstand my argument. The premise of this thread was that each style uses the physics from their respective games. This is definitely not true.

I know your argument: for you, the main point is that the SMM styles don't play like the original games.

But thanks to you and to other facts, we all already know that. IMO, the real question is: do the styles really handle all the exact same, or have developers kept some specificities so that even if they're not exactly like the original games, the styles still correctly represent them? That configuration would explain everything, including the different testimonies.

Anyway, thanks to your post we can now see the difference isn't that big, it's no wonder SMM developers aligned some of their characteristics. It's mostly in air manoeuvrability and slipperiness that matter, and in this area I'm still not convinced, and testimonies are IMO still the most important.

Just one month to go anyway.

 

[RagnarokX]

Thank you, that's actually very interesting. I have always felt NSMBU was pretty close to SMW, but here it's obvious (NSMBU is just a bit more "tense", like SMB3). I wonder how it compares with NSMBW (then again, it's mostly speed and air manoeuvrability that was different in NSMBW).

I'm surprised SMB is actually pretty close to SMW and NSMBU, it's the exact same before the peak. And SMB3 being that different from the rest is unexpected. Then again, SMB3 was designed so you couldn't run at full speed most of the time, to avoid you flying over everything, so it makes sense.


I know your argument: for you, the main point is that the SMM styles don't play like the original games.

But thanks to you and to other facts, we all already know that. IMO, the real question is: do the styles really handle all the exact same, or have developers kept some specificities so that even if they're not exactly like the original games, the styles still correctly represent them? That configuration would explain everything, including the different testimonies.

Anyway, thanks to your post we can now see the difference isn't that big, it's no wonder SMM developers aligned some of their characteristics. It's mostly in air manoeuvrability and slipperiness that matter, and in this area I'm still not convinced, and testimonies are IMO still the most important.

Just one month to go anyway.

You're welcome. It was very enlightening working on it. The differences between SMM and SMB1/SMB3 aren't small. I was honestly quite surprised at how big a difference there was and also that SMW and NSMBU were very close. I really did not expect SMB3 to have the highest and furthest jump and certainly not 4 blocks longer.

We definitely know that SMW's air maneuverability isn't anything close to the original game. I have been looking at a lot of footage to see if SMB1 handles any differently since that would be the other style where a difference would be noticeable but unfortunately none of the footage gave a definite answer; and in testing SMB1 on virtual console I found that it is sometimes possible, though not very common, to reverse direction in the air before landing after jumping from a run to a similar degree as the maneuverability shown in the SMM SMW style analysis. It's possible that it's somewhat stiffer than the other styles, I'm honestly not sure, but after testing and reviewing footage at the very least it plays a lot less stiffly overall than the original game. We'll just have to wait until the game comes out on that one.

 

[Oblivion]

SMB and SMW jumps are exactly the same...

Did...did you bump the thread cause you discovered a gif that was made by RagnarokX in this very same thread?

IGN is fucking useless. In their lets play they get asked about it and they're not even sure when they're playing.

Our wonderful gaming press, ladies and gentlemen.

It says a lot that the first result on google for "Super Mario Maker Phsyics" after all these months is this thread.

It'll certainly return at 9/11, and it'll be hilarious, regardless of the outcome.

Wait, this is coming out on 9/11? LOL

 

[kyongwon]

Wait, this is coming out on 9/11? LOL

never forget

 

[BTA]

Wait, this is coming out on 9/11? LOL

It is very specifically coming out on "the 11th of September". They're using the same phrasing for the Amiibos releasing on that date as well.

 

[bomma_man]

It is very specifically coming out on "the 11th of September". They're using the same phrasing for the Amiibos releasing on that date as well.

That's the phrasing used in places with normal date systems

 

[Simbabbad]

Just to close the thread: I have the game, and physics are the same.

 

[NCR Redslayer]

Just to close the thread: I have the game, and physics are the same.

By the mark of my dignity, I must check youtube first.

 

[Zero²]

Just to close the thread: I have the game, and physics are the same.

The same as in the original games or the same physics across all styles?

 

[PRjumpman124]

Do we really still not know?

 

[Ranger X]

The physics apparently are the ones of SMBU.
I think its the most intelligent choice as it resembles SMB and SMB3 physics sorta melt together. Only Mario World would feel odd at first.

 

[Simbabbad]

The same as in the original games or the same physics across all styles?

Oops, sorry, just realized my phrasing was ambiguous. They're all identical across styles. It handicapped me when playing SMB1 levels, BTW, but you get used to it.

It's been established in other threads, but I just thought it was appropriate to mention it here.

 

[clav]

Oops, sorry, just realized my phrasing was ambiguous. They're all identical across styles. It handicapped me when playing SMB1 levels, BTW, but you get used to it.

It's been established in other threads, but I just thought it was appropriate to mention it here.

Disappointing but expected given the nature of the game.

 

[Oblivion]

On the other hand...

The change between Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario World is far more than pallet swaps. Super Mario Bros. levels control differently than Super Mario World. The physics are different. Mario’s run is different.

http://venturebeat.com/2015/09/02/s...ond-youre-playing-or-building-a-wondrous-joy/

You can optionally choose to run through some sample courses to get a sense of what the various tools can do, but you're never told in explicit terms how a mine functions, which physics features are unique to each different visual set, or how you can turn a plain green Koopa Troopa into a flying, red, gigantic Koopa Paratroopa.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/super-mario-maker-wii-u-review-infinite-fundiscovery

We all know exactly how Super Mario Bros 3 feels different than Super Mario World, and the physics models here provide that sensation to a tee.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/91069/super-mario-maker-review-its-a-we-mario

It’s easy to switch between the different eras of 2D Mario (Bros., Bros. 3, World, and New) while creating, but there is no cross-pollination among them, since each uses different physics and power-ups. All the pieces and templates translate within each era, though, which offers an interesting opportunity to see how familiar mechanics and art assets have gone through subtle changes through Mario’s 30 years.

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/s...2/game-informer-super-mario-maker-review.aspx

Part of what makes Super Mario Maker so charming is in how it retains the spirit of each of the games it derives from. There are a total of four games themes available – Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario World and New Super Mario Bros. – and each of them follows the same physics and mechanics as the games they originate from.

http://gamingtrend.com/reviews/the-keys-to-the-mushroom-kingdom-super-mario-maker-review/

 

[chaobreaker]

Even when the game has been out for hours this whole thing is still up for debate. I love it.

 

[TheMoon]

On the other hand...



http://venturebeat.com/2015/09/02/s...ond-youre-playing-or-building-a-wondrous-joy/



http://www.usgamer.net/articles/super-mario-maker-wii-u-review-infinite-fundiscovery



http://www.shacknews.com/article/91069/super-mario-maker-review-its-a-we-mario



http://www.gameinformer.com/games/s...2/game-informer-super-mario-maker-review.aspx



http://gamingtrend.com/reviews/the-keys-to-the-mushroom-kingdom-super-mario-maker-review/

All of them have no clue what physics are. Replace the word physics with "movesets" or "abilities" and then you got what they were going for. They're talking about wall-jumps, butt stomps, spin-jumps...

 

[Refreshment.01]

Oops, sorry, just realized my phrasing was ambiguous. They're all identical across styles. It handicapped me when playing SMB1 levels, BTW, but you get used to it.

It's been established in other threads, but I just thought it was appropriate to mention it here.

Thnak you i was planning on revisiting this thread since months ago, even though i wasn't an active part in the discussion.

It is really something to see people geting work up and personally invested in topics that can easily approached objectivly, but as most times agendas and personal bias get in the way of honest and smart debate. There are a place for those of course but not in topics such as the functionality of a game.

 

[Oblivion]

Thnak you i was planning on revisiting this thread since months ago, even though i wasn't an active part in the discussion.

It is really something to see people geting work up and personally invested in topics that can easily approached objectivly, but as most times agendas and personal bias get in the way of honest and smart debate. There are a place for those of course but not in topics such as the functionality of a game.

You sayin' I was intentionally trying to mislead the good people of gaf?

 

[The Hermit]

so, whats the verdict?