Waylon Drums
Member
I've only now realized that the Amiibo stuff only works in SMB. What a stupid, Nintendoey thing to do.
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Super Mario Maker physics debate thread of Mario moving back.... and to the left.
- Thread starter Oblivion
- Start date
It makes sense. SMB is the most basic-looking/controlling style of the bunch and lacks the more interesting powerups of its successors so they gave it the mystery mushroom as an incentive for more people to make levels with it.
crisdecuba
Member
So did I. You're wrong here.
tim_pkmn89
Member
It replaces the slot left empty due to the lack of a flying item in SMB1.
Simbabbad
Member
He's right, though, that jump is doable in SMB since in this sequence Mario has little to no momentum. You have air control in SMB as long as you don't have too much momentum, so that sort of sequence isn't conclusive, unlike Cosmo in NWC who can't cancel his momentum in-air at all despite trying repeatedly (he's trying to grab the vine at the top of the saw blade).
You already answered to this by pointing out the conveyor belt could skew things up, but conveyor belt or not, there is no way SMW Mario would behave like this. SMW Mario is able to cancel a full speed jump momentum near instantaneously in-air and go back a good distance. Here, he can't even cancel his momentum at all.
It makes perfect sense given that there is a ridiculously high amount of Amiibo, SMB is the one that asks the less work to design sprites for, and it gives an extra incentive to make SMB levels. Expecting Nintendo to design two sets of 8-bit sprites, one set of 16-bit sprites, and full NSMB 3D models for every single Amiibo is flat out nuts. No other editor would bother to do this. In fact, only Nintendo can do stuff like even designing 8-bit sprites for every Amiibo in the first place.
robertlebrone
Member
This game is going to be awesome.
I'm looking forward to the game releasing and exact measurements being performed.
Regardless of how it turns out, someone will have egg on their face
(Personally, I'd like the story better if the physics are actually the same, because I'm always impressed by how much the brain can fool itself)
Knowing NeoGAF if it turns out they're the same, people won't admit it and just say that they changed it in the months between E3 and release.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
It's the Magic Jumping Theory
No. Mario does not have the kind of mobility displayed there. Tezuka said they weren't using SMB physics.
He gets a good couple of block run before the jump. That kills air control almost completely in SMB.
Despite the conveyor belts Cosmo does cancel his momentum several times in that video. Sometimes he chooses to hold left and crosses several blocks back before he lands and sometimes he switches to right and tries to land on the mushroom instead. That's a considerable amount of air control. The whole end of that level depends on having air control since you need to land on the pipe. John found the air control too strong and ended up hitting the saw blade instead.
Here are some gifs (I slowed the footage to 1/4 speed):
Cosmo tries to reach the vine, completely kills his forward momentum by the apex of the jump, then decides to go for the mushroom and manages to land on it, followed by Cosmo not deciding to go right and continuing left after the apex.
John's various displays of air control at the end of the level.
The same level in SMW style.
I wish Mario's sprite changed direction so that it was easier to tell when the player changed inputs.
And yet it has a very easy to use and intuitive editor and looks like it plays extremely well no matter what physics it may or may not be using. We have already seen that the tools are powerful and I can't wait to see what people create. There may be stuff missing but there is a ton there and whether more gets added is icing IMO.
This game is my most anticipated by a mile.
Yeah, agreed. Plus, while there's things missing, there's also a ton of new tools that have never been seen in any Mario game, so it sort of balances it out.
We still don't know EVERYTHING .... compare to each released trailer in release order and you will see that it is totaly possible that everything there is already in the game, just didn't showed yet
SatoAilDarko
Member
Question RagnarokX. Is your point that the physics are not the same as the originals or that all four styles have the exact same physics as each other?
I could understand the former but with all of the impressions from people I would think the latter isn't correct.
I mean I could believe each game has unique physics but those physics aren't exactly the same as the original.
I could understand the former but with all of the impressions from people I would think the latter isn't correct.
I mean I could believe each game has unique physics but those physics aren't exactly the same as the original.
John's various displays of air control at the end of the level.
The same level in SMW style.
After playing a bit of SMB and SMW today I think these gifs and the video footage from those parts show that the base physics have changed and remain the same or nearly the same across styles, at least for me personally;
1. You cannot do high bounces off enemies like that in original SMB
2. You cannot change direction going forward with that amount of momentum in original SMB
3. Height of jumps after enemy bounce looks the same in Mario Maker SMW and SMB
4. They play through that part of the NWC stage and it looks like it performs the same regardless of switching between SMW and SMB.
Could be wrong as I'm not doing crazy pixel measurements or anything, but the footage from that part is pretty telling for me.
Only someone like Nintendo would think to do something so unique with them in the first place. It's an awesome idea and you found a way to piss on it as "stupid," congrats!
I did notice that the sound effects for the Wii Fit trainer sounded modern instead of 8-bitty, which is a bit of a bummer. But there's gonna be so many of these. Didn't the Animal Crossing one get placed in Slot 70 or something crazy like that? You didn't actually expect them to make them all animate in NSMB style, did you?
Me_Marcadet
Member
It's awesome and very charming, but blocking content behind amiibo in a game where the whole point is to have complete control and freedom over what you can do is kinda offputing and disgusting. I know I would have enjoyed several hours of fun just testing all the sprites, I love those kind of details. I hope you can unlock them without amiibo...
One major point of the argument is that human perception isn't reliable, even more so on a demo unit with limited time of play. There could be thousands of reports, it still wouldn't be a proof. No offense to anyone who played the demo, I know I have already got tricked by perception when I was discussing technical details in video games.
Simbabbad
Member
We already know the physics aren't the same as the originals. His point is the physics are the exact same between all the styles, while basically everybody who has played the game argues the physics are different to evoke the original games.
It's a fun little extra with next to no incidence on gameplay, and you can play them from levels made by Amiibo owners. You can also unlock them. There no reason whatsoever to use words like "disgusting".
And even more so, by a very wide margin, when it's only looking at videos.
Let me ask you this: which opinion would you trust more, the opinion of someone who plays a game, or of someone who watches the guy play the game?
Yeah, this type of hyperbole is the norm on this board. People use the most specific words to condemn things they don't understand. Silliness
Me_Marcadet
Member
If you can unlock them without owning any amiibo, it's an awesome addition. It's disgusting only if the only way to use them is buying amiibo or playing a level from someone who owns the amiibo. Those nice touches and fanservice things used to be free and included just for their awesomeness. Locking them for amiibo users is just greedy and ruins my enjoyment of the game because it reminds me I'm playing a product made only for profit, not for the pure enjoyement of the players and fans. SMM is a dream come true for any Mario and nintendo fan, it should be 100% pure. It's "fine" when amiibo is used with average games like mario party or the like because they are not very genuine by nature. The top productions should be free of any bullshit. I can tolerate it only if the unlock is done by one amiibo made only for the game. When I learn that I need to buy dozens of amiibo to see everything that a game has to offer, I'm quite saddened. Yoshi is guilty of that, those cute costumes should have been unlockables. If nintendo don't think I'm worthy of those trinklets because I don't want to afford amiibos, I don't think their games are worth my time neither.
Let's get back to the topic.
I can't answer your question because it's not a matter of playing the game versus watching it, all I want it's some proof. I dont reject the idea of different physics because of all the impressions, it's just that I can't trust them because RagnarokX showed good evidences and I don't see so much differences when watching videos... I trust nobody in this case, I'm in the wait and see camp. It's not helping that people who played the game aren't very eloquent and can't describe convincingly why the physics are different. Instead of getting offended by RagnarokX and telling "you just watched while I played, your opinion is invalid", they should explain exactly why it's not the same. Oblivion arguments aren't great, "I suck at NSMBU, but I nailed the SMW style level" isn't convincing.
I will be fine with whatever the results are. It's not a contest or anything. I have enough trust in nintendo to know that no matter what, the gameplay in SMM will be top notch.
EDIT:
I understand completely the situation and I used the right term. Yes, it disgusts me when a game is tarnished by scummy practices. One of the reason I love nintendo and trust them is because they always had the philosophy of realeasing great complete games full of nice little touches at launch. That's why I'm always happy to pay the full price at launch. Seeing them becoming more and more like any big publishers is disgusting. For your information, I'm someone who rarely buys any ubisoft, activision or EA games because they have disgusting practices too.
According to what I remember from the Treehouse feed: If you design a course that uses Link's sprite, you need to use a Link amiibo. Anyone who downloads and plays that course will be using that Link power-up for it, regardless of whether or not they own the amiibo.
I seem to remember something about the same sprites being unlocked in the 100 Mario Challenge, but I may be incorrect or am unsure of those details. If I understood correctly, you'll eventually unlock Link in those challenges and therefore wouldn't need the amiibo to put him in courses, though you'd have to work get it. I also am not clear if that's true for every sprite or just certain ones.
Also, you sure throw the word "disgusting" around willy-nilly. It's a cute little bonus, rather appropriate for the functionality. The gameplay suffers absolutely 0% without them. In fact, I'm fairly certain that amiibo functionality is HOW this cool idea came about in the first place. Without amiibo, there's almost no way they'd thought of it.
Geez - having watched that round of the NWC before, I completely missed what he was trying to do. "How come he keeps giving up on making that jump?" I wondered. Maybe he thought it was a trap, but I was surprised Cosmo didn't immediately grasp what he needed to do.
Yup, Mario 2 used it a crap ton throughout it's level design
So when is someone going to put together a pack of gifs and materials to make sure everyone downloads and busts out the eye dropper tool in Photoshop.
Marios eyes are green guys.
The physics look to be close approximations of each game, which is evidenced to me by the fact that you can't change styles mid level like you seemed to be able to do when it was first unveiled. They probably decided to add the different physics as time rolled along. There's no real way to know for sure unless a developer outright says so, or we get our hands on it in a few months.
Marios eyes are green guys.
i kid I kid
The physics look to be close approximations of each game, which is evidenced to me by the fact that you can't change styles mid level like you seemed to be able to do when it was first unveiled. They probably decided to add the different physics as time rolled along. There's no real way to know for sure unless a developer outright says so, or we get our hands on it in a few months.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Speaking of SMB2/Lost Levels, since they're already copying the high jump from it, they should go all out and put in all the changes the game got from the original. The poisoned mushroom and the red piranha plants that ignore the players proximity and come out no matter what.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
This thread keeps on giving.
Yeah, I'm sure that Wii Fit Trainer skin would have been included as an unlockable without amiibo.
That's hilarious. You can unlock one Yoshi costume in every goddamn level. The amiibo costumes are are additional tidbits for people who already own some amiibo or collect them. They are not even trying to 'force' people into amiibo collecting who don't want to, because otherwise the content would be much more meaningful. It's pretty clear, that the amiibo content with every game is tacked on an (conceptually) already finished game. You wouldn't have gotten more costumes in Yoshi without amiibo.
Sort of. The bounce is higher than in SMB but holding the jump button doesn't seem to do anything. If you skip off an enemy's head while Mario and the enemy are ascending, however, it's possible to leave the screen.
I admit, there is quite a bit of difficulty trying to convince people one is right without any real visual evidence. While I still say that RagnarokX's gif comparisons are flawed, it's pretty tough to make the "who are you gonna believe gaf, me or your lying eyes" argument.
Still, I maintain that the game played very differently depending on which one you played, with SMW being way more floaty, way more maneuverable, and way more precise. Guess we'll find out for sure once the game comes out.
Also, I do not "suck" at NSMB. I can play the game just fine, just in the context of that game. If NSMB and SMW shared the same physics, then I should have sucked equally at both.
The wind too!
Me_Marcadet
Member
My comment was kinda harsh, hope you didn't take offense, it was a tongue-in-cheek simplification.
For the amiibo people, whatever you want to believe and tolerate, I know I don't like this kind of practice and can't support games with them. I don't have any grudge with people who can tolerate or support amiibo, I just don't like to be treated like I don't understand the situation. I'm radical because today's gaming offer lot of choices and it's a mere sacrifice to boycott amiibo stuff. Hope it's stay that way.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I gotta say, this thread title is God Tier.
So you want to boycott the game because it supports amiibo at all even though you can get the content by playing the game or ?
Me_Marcadet
Member
No, I said I was fine with the unlocks, I will certainly buy SMM. It's too awesome to miss.
It's just that I don't want any amiibo stuff near my Mario or Zelda. With smash, I was fine with amiibo because they really didn't add anything, even if I had one I would not have bothered with the feature. Since amiibo are successful, nintendo started to add really meaningful content that I care about and since it is created, they should always be an option to unlock it in game. That's amiibo exclusive content I find off-putting. It reminds me that amiibo is not a nice thing for the fans, but a new way to nickel and dime them. Any content unlocked by buying another product is scummy in my book. I hope my point is clear and that we stop the derail. No argument will change my mind anyway and I don't care if people love amiibo,I just don't like when I'm told I don't understand the situation although I have put a lot of thoughts into it and I even was kinda supportive at first.
Amiibos would be the greatest thing ever if each content created for them would also be unlockable for everyone. If people stopped buying them because of this, it would prove that they are not genuine nice things to possess.
It's just that I don't want any amiibo stuff near my Mario or Zelda. With smash, I was fine with amiibo because they really didn't add anything, even if I had one I would not have bothered with the feature. Since amiibo are successful, nintendo started to add really meaningful content that I care about and since it is created, they should always be an option to unlock it in game. That's amiibo exclusive content I find off-putting. It reminds me that amiibo is not a nice thing for the fans, but a new way to nickel and dime them. Any content unlocked by buying another product is scummy in my book. I hope my point is clear and that we stop the derail. No argument will change my mind anyway and I don't care if people love amiibo,I just don't like when I'm told I don't understand the situation although I have put a lot of thoughts into it and I even was kinda supportive at first.
Amiibos would be the greatest thing ever if each content created for them would also be unlockable for everyone. If people stopped buying them because of this, it would prove that they are not genuine nice things to possess.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
I have to agree with Amiibo haters. It's glorified on disc DLC whatever way you slice it. Locking content already in the game is a bullshit move. Cosmetic only or gameplay affecting, you're not letting me access the game I paid for in its entirety. It's bullshit of the highest order. Everyone else does it with preorder bonuses. Nintendo is doing it with Amiibo. They're just as bad as each other. Hell maybe Amiibo is even worse since Amiibo are way more expensive, there's no way to get any kind of Amiibo free with games, and they're more limited than DLC. I think it's a terrible practice that screws over paying customers and it's a shame it's actually successful.
Simbabbad
Member
Yeah, the commentators were also embarrassed. I also first didn't understand what he was trying to do at all, it was weird.
Then again the control schemes are different: you can't grab shells in SMB, you can spin and toss shells upward in SMW, and you can wall jump in NSMB. Maybe you can't switch because of control schemes and not physics...
(also, people are taking Amiibo way too seriously, be it one way or the other)
BassForever
Member
FWIW Amiibo are slightly better then pre-order dlc or unlock codes or even straight up cosmetic dlc since we know they'll never be pulled from the digital market place/will only be available as pre-order only. Just as an example you still can not use sgt johnson in halo 3 odst unless you pre-ordered, yet in 20 years someone could hunt down a copy of wooly world and whatever amiibo they want to get access to those costumes.
Others have touched on it but I agree with them. It would take a ton of man power to model all those characters.
Although I'd pay for DLC to "upgrade" skins to be used in other styles.
I don't get this attitude about on-disc DLC. Whether you have to download it, unlock it with an Amiibo, or it is already on the disc, it is still bonus content. What difference does the delivery mechanism make? Nintendo offers a product. If the amount of accessible content is worth it to you, buy the game. If it is not, don't. Complaining that they aren't giving you everything for that one initial price is just greedy.
To get back on topic: the SMB physics seem like a slight evolution of the original physics, probably expanded to make navigating the new obstacles possible.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
Ugh. Apologists are the worst. Yeah I'm the one being greedy, not the companies making people fork out extra cash for something already done and completed in the game. Suuuure. It would be very easy to flip a switch and make all that content available to everyone. They don't because they can make extra money by locking it. It's only bonus content because they decide it is so they can nickel and dime people. It shouldn't be. It should be available to everyone that bought the game. Bonus content should be what they work on and add post launch. But alas what should be is not what happens in this industry today. They can make some extra money from these crappy practices, and what's worse is you've even got people defending it.
Simbabbad
Member
Also, one big difference: you can lend Amiibo. A lot of content unlocked by Amiibo is actually unlocked only once, so if your friend of nephew comes with his Amiibo, you can unlock everything his Amiibo gives access to in all your games without spending a dime.
And as it's been said, SMM content can be unlocked without Amiibo. At this point it's complaining for the sake of complaining.
This kind of reply is the worst.
I agree with him. Is the game worth the money? Is the additional content worth the additional money? If so, I don't see the issue. The additional content wouldn't exist without the DLC or Amiibo mechanics. This is literally the exact same as expansion disks in computer games in the 90s, which nobody ever complained about.
It's been mentioned several times already, yet people keep complaining.
