Been playing and replaying mario sidescrollers with timesucking frequency for the last 29 years. Played smm extensively on the e3 showfloor last week. Absolutely no doubt in my mind that the physics change depending on what "game" you select. They are at the very least commendable approximations of how mario maneuvered in the original games. Some here seem strangely hellbent on believing otherwise.
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Super Mario Maker physics debate thread of Mario moving back.... and to the left.
- Thread starter Oblivion
- Start date
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
Well we know for a fact that jump height and length is the same across all versions, and it's sure as hell cleae that SMB in Mario Maker has way better midair control than the original. I don't doubt that there may be differences, but jump height and length certainly isn't and the physics certainly aren't identical to their original versions across all games. Specifically what felt different? Different levels of midair control? Weight?
TheSlySoul
Member
Yep, valid point.
I think the reason why run speed and angle had to be consistent was for the changing of themes on the fly.
Imagine making a level with SMB then changing to SMB3 theme and then all your old specific timing designs are invalid.
I don't think they are the same physics in each game. Too many videos to prove it. It may be the same code tweaked around when you change the theme.
Storm Kyleis
Member
Nope, the player is always going to the right in that segment. Here's what happened:
1. Midway through the jump, the player starts pressing left to slow down his momentum.
2. He's still pressing left when he touches the ground. As a consequence, Mario turns around as soon as he lands.
3. The player then jumps toward the Bob-omb while still facing left.
Now here's the difference: NSMBU Mario would turn around in mid-air to face the new direction. SMB Mario, on the other hand, retains the direction he was originally facing until the end of the jump. It's a very minor graphical difference, but it's tricking people into thinking the jump itself is different. What we should look for instead is the height, length and momentum of the jump, and that appears to be exactly the same as far as I can tell.
*puts down the magnifying glass*
Nope, the player is always going to the right in that segment. Here's what happened:
1. Midway through the jump, the player starts pressing left to slow down his momentum.
2. He's still pressing left when he touches the ground. As a consequence, Mario turns around as soon as he lands.
3. The player then jumps toward the Bob-omb while still facing left.
Now here's the difference: NSMBU Mario would turn around in mid-air to face the new direction. SMB Mario, on the other hand, retains the direction he was originally facing until the end of the jump. It's a very minor graphical difference, but it's tricking people into thinking the jump itself is different. What we should look for instead is the height, length and momentum of the jump, and that appears to be exactly the same as far as I can tell.
*puts down the magnifying glass*
Yep.. This is what I've noticed too. Or at least what I thought I noticed.... The animation is different but the trajectory appears the same between different game styles.
However, also notice that NSMBU has double and triple jumps. In that sense, it will not have the same physics as the other games and second/third jumps with the same timing will not have the same trajectory when palette swapping.... So..... ? Still I'm still not sure about this game's physics one week later. All I know is that the games physics are not "identical" to the original games... but they may also not be identical to each other....
I think Nintendo took a middle of the road approach: bringing the physics closely in line with each other to make palette switching easier while keeping a few unique quirks intact for each palette.
But this is what I DO know: anyone who says the games retain their original physics is wrong. I'm 100% certain of that just by seeing footage. But that's really not a bad thing nor do I think we should count that as a negative. The game looks like it controls well.
SpiceMelange
Member
Nope, the player is always going to the right in that segment. Here's what happened:
1. Midway through the jump, the player starts pressing left to slow down his momentum.
2. He's still pressing left when he touches the ground. As a consequence, Mario turns around as soon as he lands.
3. The player then jumps toward the Bob-omb while still facing left.
Now here's the difference: NSMBU Mario would turn around in mid-air to face the new direction. SMB Mario, on the other hand, retains the direction he was originally facing until the end of the jump. It's a very minor graphical difference, but it's tricking people into thinking the jump itself is different. What we should look for instead is the height, length and momentum of the jump, and that appears to be exactly the same as far as I can tell.
*puts down the magnifying glass*
Yep, just look at segments when the player use the wii fit trainer sprite which does not use this visual trick and you can instantly tell the physics are not SMB1.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Only thing I'm sure of is SMM is NOT using an exact replica of the NES SMB1's physics. So it goes to reason that they've all been modified a bit to resemble each other.
Simbabbad
Member
Or, the player is trying to correct his jump but is still carried by his momentum, SMB style. We can't know if we don't have user input.
At this point, it's established, see my post above. The question is: are they all the exact same, or are they tweaked to evoke each game? Again, it'd be weird to have different controls schemes (P meter, launching shells up, double and triple jump, wall jump, etc.) but the exact same physics. I don't believe it for one second, especially since 99% of people who actually played the game say the physics are different in each style.
Why should the Wii Fit Trainer sprite behave differently? It's just a sprite swap.
UncleSporky
Member
Sorry if it's been posted before, has anyone posted any sort of comparison of the various Mario physics? Like, how many blocks high is your shortest jump, how many blocks high is your tallest jump, how long does it take to reach that max height, how fast do you fall, all of that. For each version of Mario.
Seems like that would be useful information for the examination of this stuff?
Or is it all actually pretty close, which complicates matters?
Seems like that would be useful information for the examination of this stuff?
Or is it all actually pretty close, which complicates matters?
SpiceMelange
Member
It does NOT behave differently and it's my whole point. It has the same physics as the regular sprite but it does not keep the visual trick of not flipping the sprite on the Y axis when changing air direction. With the visual trick gone it's easier to see how the air control is totally different from SMB1.
Storm Kyleis
Member
.
These:
Are the same jump. They look different because the animation is different. If you watch the entire Wii Fit Trainer level you can tell that he's indeed able to control his momentum in mid-air.
That would require someone to record specifically for this purpose. We can't know for how long a button has been pressed in a standard gameplay footage.
Simbabbad
Member
You've just contradicted yourself. Again, why would the WiiFit trainer sprite behave differently than Mario's sprite by not "keeping the visual trick"? The amiibo sprites are obviously just sprite swaps. Why would they bother fiddling with sprite behaviour for a minor franchise amiibo?
You have absolutely no way to know that. You don't have access to player input, and again, why would they bother changing the code of SMB style for a minor amiibo? For all we know, the Wii Fit trainer player could adjust his jump by going left then right, and the Mario player can adjust his jump by going all the way to the left. Also, the initial speed momentum may not be the same. By editing out just a jump and not giving any clue to initial speed before the jump, you can "prove" anything.
UncleSporky
Member
I mean the actual SMB1, SMB3, SMW, and NSMB stats.
For example if SMB1 Mario jumps 6 blocks high from a standing start and SMW Mario jumps 7 blocks high from a standing start, well, there you go. You couldn't support both and have the levels easily translate with a palette swap.
SpiceMelange
Member
You have some serious lack of reading comprehension. THEY DO NOT BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY, THEY ARE ONLY DIFFERENT VISUALLY. This VISUAL difference makes it clearer that smb1 in super mario maker does not use the same air control as the original SMB1. Look at Storm Kyleis's post since people can't be bothered with my youtube link in the previous page.
Portugeezer
Gold Member
I mean, it would be easy to tell SMW controls apart from SMB.
I'm sure this will happen once SMM is actually released and Gaffers can dissect it properly.
Raptomex
Member
Other than physics there are other things a friend and I noticed. Mostly with Mario World. I'm sure most of these have been discussed already.
- No slopes?
- No block to run up walls?
- The circle of boos have static faces.
- No Reznor?
- No Koopa kids? Or bosses at all other than Bowser and Bowser Jr.?
- The fact that amiibo characters only work in SMB annoys me.
- No SMW Bowser? He's redesigned?
I'm hoping DLC can add some of this stuff if it doesn't make it.
- No slopes?
- No block to run up walls?
- The circle of boos have static faces.
- No Reznor?
- No Koopa kids? Or bosses at all other than Bowser and Bowser Jr.?
- The fact that amiibo characters only work in SMB annoys me.
- No SMW Bowser? He's redesigned?
I'm hoping DLC can add some of this stuff if it doesn't make it.
UncleSporky
Member
We need to get away from how the games feel and look in offscreen footage, and get down to data.
Here's some info from the original games I dug up.
Information on gravity from the original games - assuming their calculations are correct, you can see that the games didn't all have the same gravity. Super Mario Bros. had g at 9.31, Mario 3 had g at 9.42, Mario World had it at only 6.32.
A guy here did a ton of work on cataloging the physics of each Mario game. It may take some deciphering, for example he sometimes writes in a shorthand and records values in hex, but it's good info on the differences between the engines.
Mario 1
Mario 3
Mario World
Like I said above, I was looking for the stats on the original games so they can properly be compared to the new one. And I appear to have found some.
Here's some info from the original games I dug up.
Information on gravity from the original games - assuming their calculations are correct, you can see that the games didn't all have the same gravity. Super Mario Bros. had g at 9.31, Mario 3 had g at 9.42, Mario World had it at only 6.32.
A guy here did a ton of work on cataloging the physics of each Mario game. It may take some deciphering, for example he sometimes writes in a shorthand and records values in hex, but it's good info on the differences between the engines.
Mario 1
Mario 3
Mario World
Like I said above, I was looking for the stats on the original games so they can properly be compared to the new one. And I appear to have found some.
I mean... it'd be nice if they could include literally everything in the universe, but I'd consider these to be minor gripes considering what they've achieved with this editor.
Wait... but they both are SMB1 style examples, aren't they? Why does the animation change between them?.
These:
Are the same jump. They look different because the animation is different. If you watch the entire Wii Fit Trainer level you can tell that he's indeed able to control his momentum in mid-air.
Raptomex
Member
Slopes seems significant considering the game is about designing levels. I may even be able to say the same about running up walls. It's a feature that could affect level design. But I guess you just have to keep in mind you can't do that now.
The circle of boos, the faces don't even move. Not the mouths, nothing. Just static. Seems odd.
EDIT: And if Nintendo based this game on a tool they use to design Mario levels I don't see why most of this stuff can't be included.
Storm Kyleis
Member
#PhysicsGate #TeamSamePhysics
Each character has its own animation to simulate their original game. Link's idle pose faces towards the camera, for example.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
- Slopes didn't exist in SMB and would be out of place. Since things need to be back ported, it's an honest thing to leave out.
- Same as above. No equivalent in any other SMB game. But this one could be made an exception if they wanted to.
- Yeah, hopefully they figure that one out and add in randomness for the SMW theme.
- More bosses would be nice. BOOM BOOM in SMB3/NSMB and Reznor in SMW. But what would go in SMB1?
- Same. Would be nice to have the kids. But what would they do differently?
- Don't really care about Amiibo. But I do want that LE one. Hope they release that limited edition package here.
- Bowser in World was only in his clown car. There is no original Bowser sprite to use. Of course he needs to be completely redesigned for the SNES style.
Raptomex
Member
I see your point but I think the arguments would be valid if they didn't redesign other sprites to fit each game. For example, I may be wrong but I don't think Bob-Ombs were in the original SMB, yet they made a sprite for it. From what I've seen I think they have done this with other enemies as well. They had the time to design 50+ amiibo sprites only for SMB? Maybe they could have designed sprites for everything that's missing.
Ah, that makes sense, thanks.
There's more costumes than there are amiibos so there's at least some number that you can only unlock through regular gameplay, and they're also probably a lot less work than redesigning elements with actual gameplay implications.
Storm Kyleis
Member
Most of Mario Maker's content wasn't in SMB. Slopes have been pretty important since SMB3.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Lack of slopes is a bit of a bummer but I can see why it wouldn't be there. The editor uses a grid based system and as said above would be weird in smb style.
SpiceMelange
Member
Plenty of grid based editors have slopes, including smash bros's stage editor (when you put the grid option on)
Raptomex
Member
If the physics are proved to be universal then all they would need to do is design missing elements for the corresponding games, no? They've done it already with some elements but why other elements are missing is questionable. Slopes seems significant to me as it effects level design.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
True but it seems like they want to keep this editor as simple as possible.
They probably still want each style to have its own identity even with all the crossover elements, though I agree that slopes are a weird omission. Without knowing exactly the circumstances that went into designing all the different forms of costume Mario it's hard to say that they could've put all their effort into something else. For all we know this could be an 11th hour addition because they were ahead of schedule.
Dude you're just arguing semantics. He's not saying they're the exact same jump input for input. He's just saying they're the same in the general sense that both jumped to the right then turned left mid jump.
And the simple point both him and Helacious are trying to make that you somehow keep struggling to get is that both sprites behave exactly the same, except that the amiibo sprite does flip left while the Mario one does not. You are right, they aren't bothering with changing the sprite behavior of a minor franchise amiibo, no one at any point said that. The point is when the Mario sprite doesn't flip, you get the false impression that there's little to no air control when there actually is. With the amiibo sprite removing that illusion by having the sprite actually flip when changing direction mid air, you can clearly see that there is air control, the same exact air control the Mario sprite has but easier to see.
Simbabbad
Member
I perfectly got your point from the start, thanks, it's you who don't understand mine. Why. Would. The Wii Fit trainer sprite. Behave differently (or "would be displayed differently", if you prefer). Than the standard Mario one?
Where do you get the idea the sprite would "be displayed" (since "behave" disturbs you) differently than Mario's? Again, why on Earth would the developers bother with this and not just do a sprite swap?
Pretty much. I doubt 99% of people who played the game would make such a mistake.
No reason to think the animation changes, the player input isn't the same, the original momentum isn't either.
I perfectly got this. But what makes you think the Mario sprite doesn't flip and the Wii Fit trainer's flips? That's what I'm saying from the start, and what you're all three missing. There is no reason to think Mario and the Wii Fit trainer's sprites are displayed differently, one that would "actually flip" and the other which wouldn't. Why on Earth would developers alter this and not just swap sprites, especially since there's 50 sets to design?
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Well they went to the effort of putting in unique animations for each amiibo sprite (link holding up triforce, wii fit trainers poses, marths taunt) so I don't think thats a good argument.
SpiceMelange
Member
You can't seriously think that every single Amiibo sprites has different jump physics from Mario.
Because that's how he was visually in SMB, and the amiibo sprites weren't in SMB
Because that's how he was visually in SMB, and the amiibo sprites weren't in SMB
After reading all the arguements, its going to be very interesting to play the tutorial and see what the devs say the differences are.
I did notice that simply in the NWC the behaviors of each game are there, NSMB stage had wall jumping, the SMW stage seemed to have Spin Jumping, etc.
Actual physics physics though? I can't confirm until I play the game, but 8 bit Mario seems like there is a minor difference and looks a bit floatier than what I'm used to seeing when I play SMB. But I have not played SMM, and am excited to buy and play the heck out of this game for the rest of the year.
I did notice that simply in the NWC the behaviors of each game are there, NSMB stage had wall jumping, the SMW stage seemed to have Spin Jumping, etc.
Actual physics physics though? I can't confirm until I play the game, but 8 bit Mario seems like there is a minor difference and looks a bit floatier than what I'm used to seeing when I play SMB. But I have not played SMM, and am excited to buy and play the heck out of this game for the rest of the year.
darkness_s
Member
Because the Mario sprite never flips while it's is in the air, even when the player is clearly changing the direction they are pressing, and the Wii Fit trainer's sprite does change in mid air.
From that particular gif, it's a bit difficult to tell that the player is pressing left, but you can easily find footage where it's clear the player is changing the direction they press, and the Mario sprite doesn't flip.
In this video, for example, after jumping on the second turtle, the player clearly presses left to land on the same platform, yet the sprite never changes direction. In all the footage that we have of WFT's sprite, it changes direction while it's mid-air pretty frequently, you can clearly see this in the same video a little bit later .
It's more likely that the Mario sprite is the one with special behaviour programmed to not change direction in mid-air. The probably did it to preserve some of the SMB 1 feel.
Oh I never would've guessed that's what you meant because the sprites displaying differently is a given.
What do you mean there's no reason to think that? It's perfectly clear in any of the SMB footage, Mario's sprite doesn't flip, the amiibo's sprite does, I don't know why the developers did it that way. Sorry I don't feel like making any gifs or anything but just go watch the SMB level from the NWC, he constantly changes direction midair and the sprite doesn't flip.
Simbabbad
Member
I don't. I never did. I never thought anyone would ever think this. It never occurred to me.
But "being displayed facing right" instead of "being displayed facing left" and vice-versa is sprite behaviour. Again, why would that behaviour be different (not talking about physics or controls, obviously)? Hard coding "if it's Mario, display the sprite facing right, but if it's the Wii Fit trainer, display the sprite facing left" is weird. So my question is, what makes you think it's the case?
Thank you. From the footage I've seen, it wasn't clear at all, I thought the difference came from user input. I guess it makes sense.
Still, I don't think it's conclusive regarding SMB physics in SMM. If you did the same sort of hack in the actual SMB, if wouldn't feel SMB. So the illusion goes both way: maybe some people feel SMM SMB doesn't have comparable physics with actual SMB because they're tricked by amiibo sprite logic?
Not to me, I haven't watched much footage with amiibo sprite swap. Also, not being a native English speaker creates misunderstandings, I guess. I wouldn't have guessed "behaviour" would be understood as "physics/controls" and not "display".
Storm Kyleis
Member
From Lunar Magic, I think it's simple enough. Plus, slopes are fun.
Yup, abilities are indeed different.
SpiceMelange
Member
It's literally answered in the second half of the post that you quoted.
No, I could instantly tell the air control was not the same in the previous mario maker videos before amiibos were a thing. The amiibo only serve to make it more apparent to people who have trouble seeing it because of the fact Mario doesn't flip around.
FFS I'm repeating myself at least 10 times now.
Simbabbad
Member
I know, I wanted to clarify first.
SpiceMelange
Member
Well then why ask the question again?
Simbabbad
Member
Because I answered your post before reading darkness_s's useful answer, and then I left that answer in my post to clarify our misunderstanding, like I just said?
Is it important?
From Lunar Magic, I think it's simple enough. Plus, slopes are fun.
Maybe it's one of the "surprises" they mentioned?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Whoa wait, you can't make slopes
I mean
I'm not cancelling my pre-order, but I think that this makes it sound like a non-definitive Mario game-making tool, haha. I mean shit, Mario 3 was one of the very first platform games to even do slopes, so it's just weird to me that they would omit something that impacted SMB3's level design so much. No sliding down hills or nothing.
I'm not saying for us to do something like the Metroid Prime petition, but... I think we definitely should try and communicate the best we can about some of the things that are lacking from this game that are essential. Hopefully they'll add them later in DLC.
I would be very happy if that was the case.
I mean
I'm not cancelling my pre-order, but I think that this makes it sound like a non-definitive Mario game-making tool, haha. I mean shit, Mario 3 was one of the very first platform games to even do slopes, so it's just weird to me that they would omit something that impacted SMB3's level design so much. No sliding down hills or nothing.
I'm not saying for us to do something like the Metroid Prime petition, but... I think we definitely should try and communicate the best we can about some of the things that are lacking from this game that are essential. Hopefully they'll add them later in DLC.
I would be very happy if that was the case.
SpiceMelange
Member
You're the most confusing dude I've ever argued with.
GameGuru59
Banned
If its not in the game, they'll probably add it in DLC. It'd just be a few sprites to add for SMB and that'd be about it.