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Super Mario Maker physics debate thread of Mario moving back.... and to the left.

If its not in the game, they'll probably add it in DLC. It'd just be a few sprites to add for SMB and that'd be about it.

*nods* That's definitely what I'm hoping for. One thing that I think would have been great, but is probably never going to happen, is if we see the rolling platforms found in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. That'd be really cool to see in SMB.
 

RagnarokX

Member
How so? We see Mario control his position in-air only when he has zero momentum. When he has momentum, we can see him doing a nice sinusoid curve to the right while his sprite shows the player is actually moving to the left. If it were SMW or NSMBU physics (BTW, it'd be nice if people stopped saying "NSMB physics", because NSMB/NSMBW physics are completely different from NSMB2/NSMBU physics), then he'd cancel his momentum much quicker.


Except he has zero clue about the actual player input, which is the most important, so it's all worthless. There is no way you can know precisely what a player is doing simply from a far away video of his hands. The only elements he uses with some sort of value are the trajectories from the Treehouse where the guy is explicitly saying what he's doing.

In the bottom line, what actually matters is how things feel when you play. And basically all people who played the game say the physics are obviously different between styles.

The "placebo" thing is pretty comical too, because people who use it to make a point in this thread miss the fact that the placebo effect applies much more to people who simply watch videos than to people who actually experience a game.
How do I have no clue about player input? All of the footage shows the same air control physics, but I deliberately chose the example that I did because we can see the player's hands. There can be no doubt as to what buttons the player is pressing because we can see them very clearly. We know he held left because we can very clearly see he's holding left. We know he did not release Y because yoshi extends his tongue every time you press Y and he runs after the jump without Yoshi extending his tongue.

Also, people are subject to perceptual tricks regardless of how they experience something. Eye-witness testimony is notoriously flawed as evidence. The trick to overcoming perception is through detailed analysis and measurement.

He's actually pretty clear about it:

Why would he say they're "a little bit closer" to modern Marios, if they were going to be straight up identical?

Yer fancy college DEE-grees don't scare me none, perfessor.

Let's go back to my tractor example. As we already established, the tractor only has a top speed of 10 miles an hour. Say we have a large landmark (a rock, or whatever, it doesn't matter) that's say, 20 miles away from the tractor. Now let's say I start driving toward that landmark and I'm driving for 5 minutes.

During this travel time, I could claim that, despite only actually driving 10 miles an hour, I felt like I was driving at 110 mph. This may appear absurd to an outside observer, but that's my perception, so it is what it is.

But you know what I can't say? I can't claim that I'm driving so fast that I've already passed that landmark within that 5 minute frame of time. Passing the landmark is an actual goal/objective, whereas the feeling of moving fast, is just perception.

Similarly, you could reasonably claim that I could be mistaken about SMW's physics when I'm simply jumping around happily on a flat plane. However, when I'm playing SMW and I'm going through a course that consists of one block platforms scattered about at full speed, and I'm able to complete it in the first try, well that's an actual goal/objective and no longer perception. One can't placebo their way to victory in this situation.

They are?
That's not clear. Clear would be using no uncertain terms.

He could mean that the games are a little bit closer to modern Marios in they share physics, but they retain their own abilities, which is a major gameplay difference. For most of the games in this game the physics thing is probably not a huge difference. SMW is pretty different from the other 3 and that's why I chose to focus on it. SMB has much more air control than it should and SMW has much less air control than it should. Footage indicates they move identically.

Right, you can't claim you passed the landmark. That's the point of my analysis. You could have felt like you were going faster than you actually were, but then someone measures your speed and shows that you didn't actually go any faster.

To put it in visual terms:
LH55Uhg.jpg


Imagine the ice block is the rock and Mario is the tractor. You may have felt like Mario was being as agile as he was in SMW at the time you were playing but then when you measure what happened you find that you didn't pass the ice block.

Mario has damn good intuitive game design. The levels in the demo were designed around Mario's abilities and physics, so of course you were able to make jumps running at full speed. The Treehouse folks changed styles and showed that the style does not affect your ability to make jumps. They even changed NWC1 to SMW style and completed it all the same.
 
I played SMM at Best Buy both days they did the event, and played exclusively SMW stages because I love that game and have played the shit out of it. It felt pretty spot on, controls-wise, but I'm not going to sit here and swear that it's EXACTLY the same, because plenty evidence says otherwise.
I was concerned about this, but the game felt great either way.
 

ika

Member
W
hoa wait, you can't make slopes

I mean

I'm not cancelling my pre-order, but I think that this makes it sound like a non-definitive Mario game-making tool, haha. I mean shit, Mario 3 was one of the very first platform games to even do slopes, so it's just weird to me that they would omit something that impacted SMB3's level design so much. No sliding down hills or nothing.

I'm not saying for us to do something like the Metroid Prime petition, but... I think we definitely should try and communicate the best we can about some of the things that are lacking from this game that are essential. Hopefully they'll add them later in DLC.



I would be very happy if that was the case.

Yeah I'm with you. I'm sure they'll add slopes and other enemies/power-ups/terrain options via DLC. Maybe they're already there hidden @ E3 demo (on some videos we only see the first two tool bars and we don't know how we'll unlock the other ones, if they're not available form the beginning).

Some things i'm missing and I hope they'll add later on:

-Slopes
-Banzai Bill
-Blue and Yellow Koopas (we need more Yoshi power!)
-Giant ghosts / that cloud ghost cloud with that fishing rod / other enemies from ghost houses
-Snake platforms from SMW
-Giant wheels from NSMBU
-Spiky pillars from SMW
-Terrain that moves up and down in caves from SMW and NSMBU
-Complex pipe puzzles and shapes like SMB3
-Vertical levels / towers
-Koopalings / Renzor / Boom Boom
-Scalable grids with revolving doors like SMW and NSMBU
-Desert, Ice, Sky, Pipe, Night, Lava, Chocolate, Forest themes and that cool impressionist NSMBU theme.
-More enemies from SMB3 and SMW
-More music (athletic themes and other variations)
-Yoshi coins / star coins for exploration levels
-Can't remember more right now lol...

That's a big number of DLC packs, Nintendo! I'll pay for all of them!

And asking the impossible... maps, secret exits and warp zones!
 

maxcriden

Member
Regarding DLC, wasn't there an E3 interview GameXplain did with Tezuka where he said there are no plans for DLc but some surprises still to come for the game?

Although, it is really weird to think no DLC would come for this game. It's so well suited to it in theory.
 

Kouriozan

Member
Yeah, the game is pretty stuffed in content and features and there is still much they can do/add, also hoping for some surprise.
 
Yeah I'm with you. I'm sure they'll add slopes and other enemies/power-ups/terrain options via DLC. Maybe they're already there hidden @ E3 demo (on some videos we only see the first two tool bars and we don't know how we'll unlock the other ones, if they're not available form the beginning).

Some things i'm missing and I hope they'll add later on:

-Slopes
-Banzai Bill
-Blue and Yellow Koopas (we need more Yoshi power!)
-Giant ghosts / that cloud ghost cloud with that fishing rod / other enemies from ghost houses
-Snake platforms from SMW
-Giant wheels from NSMBU
-Spiky pillars from SMW
-Terrain that moves up and down in caves from SMW and NSMBU
-Complex pipe puzzles and shapes like SMB3
-Vertical levels / towers
-Koopalings / Renzor / Boom Boom
-Scalable grids with revolving doors like SMW and NSMBU
-Desert, Ice, Sky, Pipe, Night, Lava, Chocolate, Forest themes and that cool impressionist NSMBU theme.
-More enemies from SMB3 and SMW
-More music (athletic themes and other variations)
-Yoshi coins / star coins for exploration levels
-Can't remember more right now lol...

That's a big number of DLC packs, Nintendo! I'll pay for all of them!

And asking the impossible... maps, secret exits and warp zones!

I'd love to see these things in the game. I think a lot of what you said might end up being in the final version, except for maybe the different themes and the vertical levels (though the latter I could see being a different toggle or something).
 

ika

Member
Regarding DLC, wasn't there an E3 interview GameXplain did with Tezuka where he said there are no plans for DLc but some surprises still to come for the game?

Although, it is really weird to think no DLC would come for this game. It's so well suited to it in theory.

Nintendo's policy is "officially" not doing or thinking about DLC until the main game is done and out. They said similar things with Smash and Mario Kart IIRC. Pretty sure we'll get SMM DLC.
 
Here's what we need for DLC (or to be announced in the coming months for launch):

1. Slopes
2. Different Yoshi colors (shit, maybe even add like, Purple, White, Black, Orange, Brown, Pink, and Light Blue as well, each with its own power? :D)
3. As many bosses as conceivable from the games (so we'd have Bowser, Bowser Jr., Boom Boom, Sumo Brother, Petey Piranha, the Koopalings, etc.)
4. More enemy variety (examples suggested include Banzai Bill and Fishin' Boo)
5. Turnips
6. World maps (based on SMW2, SMB3, SMW, and the various New SMB games - maybe even one based on SM3DW?)
7. Music maker
8. All the power-ups
9. Auto-scrolling levels (are there any?)
10. More themes
11. Playable Mario, Luigi, Peach, Rosalina, Wario, Toad, Blue Toad, Yellow Toad, Nabbit, and Toadette
12. Sprites from SMW2 and SPM
13. Enemies from SMB2
14. Vertical levels
 

Platy

Member
Here's what we need for DLC (or to be announced in the coming months for launch):

1. Slopes
2. Different Yoshi colors (shit, maybe even add like, Purple, White, Black, Orange, Brown, Pink, and Light Blue as well, each with its own power? :D)
3. As many bosses as conceivable from the games (so we'd have Bowser, Bowser Jr., Boom Boom, Sumo Brother, Petey Piranha, the Koopalings, etc.)
4. More enemy variety (examples suggested include Banzai Bill and Fishin' Boo)
5. Turnips
6. World maps (based on SMW2, SMB3, SMW, and the various New SMB games - maybe even one based on SM3DW?)
7. Music maker
8. All the power-ups
9. Auto-scrolling levels (are there any?)
10. More themes
11. Playable Mario, Luigi, Peach, Rosalina, Wario, Toad, Blue Toad, Yellow Toad, Nabbit, and Toadette
12. Sprites from SMW2 and SPM
13. Enemies from SMB2
14. Vertical levels

All the power ups for EVERY style

8 bit mini mushroom.... mario turns into a píxel
 

Ranger X

Member
Ok I wasn't aware there was THAT much stuff missing in this game...

As a level designer I am quite deceived. Why so much stuff is missing? Are they seriously sorta testing the waters and leaving room for a Super Mario Maker 2 or something?

Also, anybody knows if you can link a bunch of levels together like a game and share it like that?
 
Check out past discussions on Sonic physics around the time Sonic 4 released.
It was way more obvious once footage and play demos came out for Sonic 4 it just hastily reused Sonic Rush's engine with the trick/boost system removed though. Rush is great but in a 'classic' Sonic setting those weird sticky-floor, momentum-less physics are abysmal and the overpowered homing attack was probably only in to try and mask that flaw. Episode 2 is better in that respect, but too little too late.

The differences being listed here for the various Mario Bros. games are like, way more smaller and pedantic in comparison to how wildly inconsistent 2D Sonic games can get.
 
Ok I wasn't aware there was THAT much stuff missing in this game...

As a level designer I am quite deceived. Why so much stuff is missing? Are they seriously sorta testing the waters and leaving room for a Super Mario Maker 2 or something?

Also, anybody knows if you can link a bunch of levels together like a game and share it like that?

DLC has to be a solution for adding much of this stuff. I hope.
 

Gsnap

Member
This thread is actually really cool. Ultimately it won't matter in the end because the game will come out and then we'll know. But it's pretty refreshing seeing several pages dedicated things like controls, physics, etc, instead of graphics and sales.
 

Ranger X

Member
DLC has to be a solution for adding much of this stuff. I hope.

Maybe but how about pulling out your original idea and game complete instead? Especially since the WiiU isn't as much DLC oriented than the other platforms, we know we are dreaming into place here. (unless this game suddendly sells10 millions copies or something)

After reading this thread, I sadly am only interested into making SMB1 style levels since the other Mario games are severely imcomplete.
 

Maggots

Banned
yes. every game plays like the game it was

Last E3 it was not so. I remember lots of people making that request at the demo stations and it looks like nintendo listened and agreed.

This year I played Mario maker and can confirm all the physics are as they should be
 
If you ever need to explain NeoGAF to someone, just let them read through this thread. Not hating, but it's one of the GAFiest threads of all time.
 

Maggots

Banned
Here are both SMB and SMW jumps in Mario maker lined up for when they started the jump:
ElIlYcM.jpg


QuerulousInsidiousCoot.gif


They are identical. He jumped slightly later in the SMW style and held left so he wouldn't die on the second red koopa as result, slightly altering the course of the jump after the first koopa.

I'm sorry but the spacing is completely different ... I'm an animator and I know timing and spacing... why is this even a debate? Haven't hundreds upon hundreds of people played the game? The physics are based on the game that the visuals represent... Just because mario has the same jump arch doesnt mean anything... you can clearly see mario's spacing in the mario world visuals is different ... the grid isnt even lined up


Been playing and replaying mario sidescrollers with timesucking frequency for the last 29 years. Played smm extensively on the e3 showfloor last week. Absolutely no doubt in my mind that the physics change depending on what "game" you select. They are at the very least commendable approximations of how mario maneuvered in the original games. Some here seem strangely hellbent on believing otherwise.

Thank You. My experience was exactly the same

As I said Last year all physics were based on the original mario bros. when switching to NSMB style it was still Original physics and it was jarring and not as good. I guarantee 100% that this year they matched the physics of each game to it's respective visuals.
 

HIUHAU

Member
This is proving to be THE game with this physics's news. I wonder if any sort of multiplayer (even take-turns style) is included, which, judging from Nintendo's obliviousness, probably isn't. It would've been perfect to enjoy some less hardcore levels along with a friend, even though I know some levels just can't work with two players.
 

Simbabbad

Member
For multiplayer they'd have to require the author to prove it can be beat in multiplayer, otherwise it'd be clunky and frustrating from the player's point of view to play unsolvable levels. It doesn't work for this game.
 

HIUHAU

Member
For multiplayer they'd have to require the author to prove it can be beat in multiplayer, otherwise it'd be clunky and frustrating from the player's point of view to play unsolvable levels. It doesn't work for this game.

All this "have to be beatable proven" is a little unnecessary imo, as anyway an unplayable level would naturally suck in user ratings, BUT, if this process is by no means skippable, then again we could have the option to "oficially" take turns in the levels as the former games did.
 

Social

Member
the slopes not being in the game is probably for technical reasons as they are a bitch for hit detection as anyone that programmed a platforming engine before will tell you.

I mean, this game does come from the same company that didn't include Peach in New Super Mario Brothers Wii because her skirt was a technical issue...
 

RagnarokX

Member
I'm sorry but the spacing is completely different ... I'm an animator and I know timing and spacing... why is this even a debate? Haven't hundreds upon hundreds of people played the game? The physics are based on the game that the visuals represent... Just because mario has the same jump arch doesnt mean anything... you can clearly see mario's spacing in the mario world visuals is different ... the grid isnt even lined up

Thank You. My experience was exactly the same

As I said Last year all physics were based on the original mario bros. when switching to NSMB style it was still Original physics and it was jarring and not as good. I guarantee 100% that this year they matched the physics of each game to it's respective visuals.
Of course the grid isn't lined up. The player jumped at different points on the grid. Lining things up based on the grid would be meaningless. If you want to compare the jumps you line them up based on where the jump started. They match up identically. The person I was replying to thought the jumps looked different but they are not.

According to Tezuka, the physics were based around NSMBU. Mario has almost no air control in SMB and footage from E3 2014 shows that it doesn't control like SMB. https://youtu.be/lvWA3xB4HjA?t=10m20s

NI8OPQf.jpg

This is a screenshot from E32014. Mario jumped right but was able to change direction midair and almost return to the jump spot.
 

FyreWulff

Member
All this "have to be beatable proven" is a little unnecessary imo, as anyway an unplayable level would naturally suck in user ratings, BUT, if this process is by no means skippable, then again we could have the option to "oficially" take turns in the levels as the former games did.

"Prove your thing works" is standard in games where there's a definite beginning and end goal. Prevents trolling but also forces players to verify their level actually works before throwing it up to the internet and giving the map download community a bad reputation.

Trackmania also forces you to verify your track can actually be completed.
 
It was way more obvious once footage and play demos came out for Sonic 4 it just hastily reused Sonic Rush's engine with the trick/boost system removed though. Rush is great but in a 'classic' Sonic setting those weird sticky-floor, momentum-less physics are abysmal and the overpowered homing attack was probably only in to try and mask that flaw. Episode 2 is better in that respect, but too little too late.

The differences being listed here for the various Mario Bros. games are like, way more smaller and pedantic in comparison to how wildly inconsistent 2D Sonic games can get.
Yep. The Classic physics were truly something special, and Sonic 4 pretended to be a part of that lineage. It wasn't, and shit all over the accomplishment of Sonic 1-3

This feels authentic enough, and they're paying respect with the feel that those games had. Far, far from Sonic 4.
 

The Hermit

Member
Regarding DLC, wasn't there an E3 interview GameXplain did with Tezuka where he said there are no plans for DLc but some surprises still to come for the game?

Although, it is really weird to think no DLC would come for this game. It's so well suited to it in theory.

Unlockables

Its a Mario Game after all
 

Simbabbad

Member
All this "have to be beatable proven" is a little unnecessary imo, as anyway an unplayable level would naturally suck in user ratings.
You can't offer players a level which can't technically be beaten. It would completely break the game, it'd be a gigantic design flaw and ruin the experience. No way Nintendo would ever allow that, and the huge majority of editors neither.

the slopes not being in the game is probably for technical reasons as they are a bitch for hit detection as anyone that programmed a platforming engine before will tell you.
I also think people underestimate the implication of slopes. This game has a LOT going on. I'd love to have them in, though.

This is a screenshot from E32014. Mario jumped right but was able to change direction midair and almost return to the jump spot.
A lot has changed since, though.
 

RagnarokX

Member
A lot has changed since, though.

Yes, a lot has changed since. Like the addition of game-specific abilities. But what hasn't changed is the thing that was relevant to the conversation. Person I was talking to said that the E3 2014 build played like SMB regardless of style, but in actuality the physics were closer to NSMBU regardless of style since they had NSMBU's air control. That air control is still there in the 2015 build.
 

Ninja Dom

Member
Hi I'm very late to the discussion.

While creating a level you can switch between the different Super Mario styles. But what about when playing somebody else's level? Can the creator 'lock' the level to the style of Super Mario they desire or can the player change to whatever style they choose?
 

HawthorneKitty

Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
Hi I'm very late to the discussion.

While creating a level you can switch between the different Super Mario styles. But what about when playing somebody else's level? Can the creator 'lock' the level to the style of Super Mario they desire or can the player change to whatever style they choose?
Finished levels are locked when playing.
 
Hi I'm very late to the discussion.

While creating a level you can switch between the different Super Mario styles. But what about when playing somebody else's level? Can the creator 'lock' the level to the style of Super Mario they desire or can the player change to whatever style they choose?

When a level is published, it's "locked" into the mode it was published in, and when someone else plays it they play it in that mode.

However you can then download the level and edit it - which includes changing the mode. You can never reupload someone else's course though, no matter how many changes you make to it.
 

Mistle

Member
Yeah I'm with you. I'm sure they'll add slopes and other enemies/power-ups/terrain options via DLC. Maybe they're already there hidden @ E3 demo (on some videos we only see the first two tool bars and we don't know how we'll unlock the other ones, if they're not available form the beginning).

Some things i'm missing and I hope they'll add later on:

-Slopes
-Banzai Bill
-Blue and Yellow Koopas (we need more Yoshi power!)
-Giant ghosts / that cloud ghost cloud with that fishing rod / other enemies from ghost houses
-Snake platforms from SMW
-Giant wheels from NSMBU
-Spiky pillars from SMW
-Terrain that moves up and down in caves from SMW and NSMBU
-Complex pipe puzzles and shapes like SMB3
-Vertical levels / towers
-Koopalings / Renzor / Boom Boom
-Scalable grids with revolving doors like SMW and NSMBU
-Desert, Ice, Sky, Pipe, Night, Lava, Chocolate, Forest themes and that cool impressionist NSMBU theme.
-More enemies from SMB3 and SMW
-More music (athletic themes and other variations)
-Yoshi coins / star coins for exploration levels
-Can't remember more right now lol...

That's a big number of DLC packs, Nintendo! I'll pay for all of them!

And asking the impossible... maps, secret exits and warp zones!
Wow, I didn't realise the game was missing so many cool things.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
That's not clear. Clear would be using no uncertain terms.

He could mean that the games are a little bit closer to modern Marios in they share physics, but they retain their own abilities, which is a major gameplay difference.

That wouldn't make sense. He's obviously referring to SMB's physics and not his movesets because clearly SMB lacks virtually any additional new moves, especially from NSMB.


Right, you can't claim you passed the landmark. That's the point of my analysis. You could have felt like you were going faster than you actually were, but then someone measures your speed and shows that you didn't actually go any faster.

What? No you're comparing two completely different things and acting like they're the same thing. They're not. I can feel like I'm going really fast, even if I'm only going 10 mph, but I can't feel like I passed the landmark when I'm clearly, obviously no where even close to it.

To put it in visual terms:
LH55Uhg.jpg


Imagine the ice block is the rock and Mario is the tractor. You may have felt like Mario was being as agile as he was in SMW at the time you were playing but then when you measure what happened you find that you didn't pass the ice block.

Sorry, not getting this at all.

Mario has damn good intuitive game design. The levels in the demo were designed around Mario's abilities and physics, so of course you were able to make jumps running at full speed. The Treehouse folks changed styles and showed that the style does not affect your ability to make jumps. They even changed NWC1 to SMW style and completed it all the same.

That's not what I meant. I didn't mean just simply jumping at full speed, but jumping at full speed while being incredibly maneuverable. Meaning that in SMW I could constantly keep moving without completely having to slow down and gauge things. For me, such a thing is only possible with SMW's (or a reasonable facsimile's ) physics. With NSMB, I'd have to stop at each block and carefully guide myself. Most likely failing multiple times, which wouldn't be a problem with SMW.
 

RagnarokX

Member
You're remembering it wrong. That jump is doable in SMB.
I busted out SMB before making the post. You have a very small amount of air control and can make a similar jump from a standing position but you lose most control going into a run like that.

That wouldn't make sense. He's obviously referring to SMB's physics and not his movesets because clearly SMB lacks virtually any additional new moves, especially from NSMB.

What? No you're comparing two completely different things and acting like they're the same thing. They're not. I can feel like I'm going really fast, even if I'm only going 10 mph, but I can't feel like I passed the landmark when I'm clearly, obviously no where even close to it.

Sorry, not getting this at all.

That's not what I meant. I didn't mean just simply jumping at full speed, but jumping at full speed while being incredibly maneuverable. Meaning that in SMW I could constantly keep moving without completely having to slow down and gauge things. For me, such a thing is only possible with SMW's (or a reasonable facsimile's ) physics. With NSMB, I'd have to stop at each block and carefully guide myself. Most likely failing multiple times, which wouldn't be a problem with SMW.

Tezuka was kinda mixing together physics and controls in his reply. SMB's lack of NSMB abilities is something that makes it control less like NSMB. Heh, he could even be talking about stuff how they kept it so that Mario's sprite never changes direction while in the air in SMB style.

The only way to know for certain if you actually went faster or not is to measure it. You didn't take any video so you can't measure your own experience (we don't know how you compared to the landmark), but we did get a ton of video from other people and there's stuff we can measure. Since we can safely assume you played the same demo it's a fair substitute. SMW only has a quarter of the air control as the original, which is identical to the other styles along with jumps. It's not possible that your experience was different, so that leaves perception. It is very possible to feel like and believe you were more precise/etc when the only thing that was actually different was visuals. It may have even made you play better.

Again, Mario generally has excellent control and levels are designed around that control. It appears that overall the game is a bit snappier than NSMBU, but seems to apply across the board. Mario looks all-around more nimble in all styles apart from SMW's air control. NSMBU has great physics and level design, so I don't see why you'd need to slow down and gauge things at all. It's not doing anything the footage from E3 isn't showing besides having more technical level design. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uADg99zfJlg
 

Durante

Member
I'm looking forward to the game releasing and exact measurements being performed.

Regardless of how it turns out, someone will have egg on their face :p

(Personally, I'd like the story better if the physics are actually the same, because I'm always impressed by how much the brain can fool itself)
 
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