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I don't think Dragon's Crown is very good.

Warxard

Banned
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I wasn't actually expecting to make a thread on this, but seeing as a previous post I made in another thread was met with a bit of eyebrow raising, I wanted to at least articulate my thoughts in a seperate thread to prevent derailing.

So! Let me preface this by saying that I genuinely adore the brawler genre a whole lot with games like Streets of Rage, Dungeons and Dragons, Spikeout, Sengoku, Guardian Heroes, Fighting Force and more recently Scott Pilgrim and Muramasa being my favorite in the series. Next to character action games they're my most favorite genre of all time. Dragon's Crown, on the other hand is something I just cannot enjoy as much as these. Not because the aesthetic doesn't appeal to me, because I genuinely love Kamitani's art (I have a framed Muramasa poster in my living room that looks real nice!) but...it's lacking in a lot of issues in game design that really irk me.

Combat

I think the biggest issue with the combat of Dragon's Crown is that the combat feels incredibly cheap in encounters. The contributing factor to that 'cheap' feel would have to be the lack of hitstop or the look of the supposed hitstop that's in the game is nonexistent. At the most the enemy character turns red and vibrates a bit. Now most would consider "why would hitstop be needed in a game like this?" Consider that later in DC there are enemies that can take an additional hit without 'flinching' and, if you have a class like the Archer, can pretty much eat through your attacks for free. It's apparent even with the tank classes like the Fighter (who is my second favorite class next to the elf) and the Amazon.

Another issue I find with the combat would also have to do with how Party Formation is a contributing factor to how combat in dungeons work. In DC I usually tended to run Elf/Wizard/Fighter/Sorceress because most, if not all of the maps contain either wood or bones that can be used for the spellcaster classes to make more friendly AI to wade through bigger monsters. That's great! But the issue within lies with enemy scaling. Meaning the AI doesn't actually get any more difficult when more players are added, instead the health of the enemies just get bigger. There's no challenge added to the dungeons with a full team. It eventually becomes a session of whittling down sponging enemies, which is kind of boring.

Movement
Dragon's Crown is pretty fast when you're moving left/right, but switching between 'lanes' (I call the foreground and backgrounds of brawlers 'lanes' because Guardian Heroes broke me lol) is a slog. Archer is my main, and she's arguably the fastest character in the game so WHY, even in later levels is her base up/down movements so damn slow? It becomes a huge issue playing solo and weaving through groups of enemies between lanes doesn't become exciting, but rather incredibly tedious. Which is why when as Archer I always remain in the air when switching lanes because it seems o be faster than simply walking.

UI/Towns/Misc.

Returning back to the 'party formation' issue, when golems, skeletons and your four members are on the field battling more monsters the screen becomes more difficult to distinguish your player characters and the other PCs from the AI both friendly and enemy. It becomes chaotic yes but the chaos is kind of a bitch when you both have to fight and protect the thief as he's scavenging in certain scenarios.

The thief. The thief is the worst. Why do I have to protect AI to open a chest? Why is there another thief that randomly shows up, that makes me stop fighting to kill him? It isn't smart to have another PC guard the thief because the risk/reward isn't worth it at all when the chest has a high chance of being a low rank chest. All four players have to be on the field to deal with the now sponging enemies.

Tiki is an unnecessary addition to the game when searching for secrets results in mostly undesirable rewards. Mapping her to the right stick to make the user manually search for secrets is a genuine waste control potential and should be reserved to a novelty as, say, a second player managing Tiki.

The Town setup is just a preference thing. I really would prefer if the entire game's contents were restricted to just a world map, and we could navigate the town through main points.

--

I think Dragon's Crown is a fine looking game on both PS3 and PSV. But as a brawler, it's probably one of the weaker brawlers I've played. There's more game design related reasons that contribute to my distaste for the game, but these are the main ones that highlight why.

Looking forward to the counterpoints/disucssion!
 

lt519

Member
Something with the game didn't click for me and I think it was the combat too. Put it down after only a few hours.
 

Usoto215

Neo Member
Sorry you feel that way. It's the best beat 'em up I've ever played and I still find myself running missions online. Great fun.
 

pantsmith

Member
Looking forward to the counterpoints/disucssion!
Well, you're wrong.

This is the exact opposite of a constructive rebuttal/conversation. Its the intellectual equivalent of writing "first".

I am genuinely curious for some well articulated counterpoints to your argument, OP, because I felt the same way about the game that you did.

Love the art, and its fine in short bursts, but ultimately the mechanics rang hollow. Was really looking for a different game, and given how some people rave about it I'm curious what the disconnect is on my end. It looks to have a healthy end game, and I'd be more than willing to give it a shot if someone could explain what I was missing.
 
I really loved the game. I thought the combat was great. Enough for me to plow through the game with each character and enjoy my time. I think the UI is totally subjective. I didnt think it was as bad as you make it out to be. The town design is actually the only thing I kind of agree with you on.
 

Corpekata

Banned
It's okay.

It felt overstuffed with systems, something that's a common issue with Vanillaware games. Like the poking around for hidden items. Should have scaled things back a bit and been more like the games it was inspired by.
 
yep. Im with you TC. Played for about 2 hours and couldnt bring myself to ever pick it back up again, never understood the hype behind this one.
 

entremet

Member
I had tons of fun with it. One of my favorite games of that year. I got both Vita and PS3 versions.

However, it does overstay it's welcome after a while. But I put a good 20 hours into it.
 
I can't really agree. While I do think something like Guardian Heroes is better and Dragon's Crown could have been better in ways I still found it a very fun game to play in Co Op and it's a gorgeous game to boot.
 

Adam Blue

Member
I really wanted to like this but I've never felt compelled to finish it. I don't know what it is, so maybe it's just the combat in general.
 
Vanillaware games always go this way for me, which is too bad. they look so pretty (character design aside in some cases), but I can never really find much enjoyment in them.
 

Abylim

Member
I think its a great game. I just used the Amazon though. Got to the "end" game. Doing the Labyrinth got repetitive, but everything felt ok to me.

Using the elf for a little while, I got frustrated. But I thought it was mostly due to me not having any of her stuff unlocked.

Sorry to hear you didnt like it, though. I'd think if you liked Muramasa you would like this!
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I never found the importance of party formation to be a negative. It's not poor design, it's just deliberately caters to diversity. If you have a well constructed and diverse party, you'll tear through the game. As for the balancing, most brawlers in a co-op setting don't get additional moves or A I tweaks, so I'm not sure what Dragon's Crown is doing wrong here necessarily.

Considering the angle of view, I don't think the vertical movement is really limiting in any way. I suppose they could have added some sort of side roll, and maybe they'll do that in the future, but I can't view this as an actual negative.

As for identifying your character when things are frenetic, they've actually patched this a number of times and tweaked it to make it easier to see your character. It can be difficult, but they're cognizant of the issue and have attempted to remedy it.

The thief and Tiki are non issues to me.

EDIT: wait there is a side roll mechanism, I think.
 

ChanMan

Member
I really loved the game. I thought the combat was great. Enough for me to plow through the game with each character and enjoy my time. I think the UI is totally subjective. I didnt think it was as bad as you make it out to be. The town design is actually the only thing I kind of agree with you on.

Yeah I think the UI was probably the biggest issue with it. Other than that I really liked the game and put over 100 hours into it. Thought combat was fun and simple probably one of the best beat-em-ups I have played.

Also I am curious on what you (OP) enjoyed more about Fighting Force than DC. (although it is a 3D versus 2D). As much as I loved playing that game as a kid it was really flawed and definitely did not age well like plenty of the beat em ups from the past.
 
Well thats like your opinion man.

When I was a kid, Golden Axe was my favorite arcade game. Back when there were arcades.

Then in my teens I got into RPG's.

Dragon's Crown is a marriage of both types of games for me. Side scrolling beat em up action with a leveling up system and weapons\equips. Add in beautiful artwork and you have one hell of a game.

Whenever Vanillaware wants to do a PS4 port or a sequel my money will be there waiting.
 

BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
All valid criticisms but I really liked the game anyway. I played the Vita version and the framerate was really rough when there's a lot going on especially with more than one spellcaster.

I just love Vanillaware's art so much that I'm willing to look past some flaws. I hope this is the game they're talking about bringing to PC because I would love to see it at super high res and a smooth framerate. I do think Muramasa was better overall tho.
 

Rival

Gold Member
I was really excited to try this game and it just fell kind of flat with me and I put it down after a couple hours. Maybe I should try it again.
 

MissChief

Member
I didn't like the game either.
- The combat little or no depth
- the isometric depth made it difficult to evade certain attacks
- you could defeat any boss using special items, I defeated the final boss using almost nothing else than thunder and fire rings.
 
I didn't really enjoy it either. I was excited at the time it came out cus my poor Vita wasn't getting very much use, but I thought it was very meh. Might just be a genre that I don't enjoy.
 

Seraphis Cain

bad gameplay lol
Also you rarely see games with post-launch support as great as DC. The game we have now is so much better than the game we had at launch.
 
it isn't very good.

it's real pretty though. beautiful music too.

it's also a pretty awful local co-op experience, especially in towns and menus.
 

Vandole

Member
I was never able to play the game for more than about 30 minutes at a time before I would start to feel bored. At first I thought maybe I had just outgrown the brawler but in truth I had only played Chronicles of Mystara a few months earlier, and was able to sink in a lot more time and still enjoy myself with that game.

I think the hub town threw off the urgency and sense of progression. it made me feel like I was simply completing mission after mission instead of advancing towards a greater goal. It was certainly required for what they were doing with the game but I can't help but feel that threw something off for me.
 
I agree OP, though it's mainly due to that when I play a beat-em-up game, I want to get right into the actual beating-em-up without having to stop into town to fiddle with crap. I really did not care for that town aspect at all; it killed the tempo of the game for me. I much prefer the classic style of "Here's 5-7 stages back-to-back, just walk your way through them and punch anyone who strays near you."
 

zethren

Banned
I thought the art and music were great, but I didn't think it was very fun when I tried it out last year. Granted I probably didn't give it a fair enough shake, it just didn't grab me.
 
It wasn't for me. I realised after playing it (for a short time admittedly) that that kind of gameplay is better left as rose-tinted memories of smokey arcades and 20p pieces.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I agree OP, though it's mainly due to that when I play a beat-em-up game, I want to get right into the actual beating-em-up without having to stop into town to fiddle with crap. I really did not care for that town aspect at all; it killed the tempo of the game for me. I much prefer the classic style of "Here's 5-7 stages back-to-back, just walk your way through them and punch anyone who strays near you."

Well this is because Dragon's Crown is very much a hybrid loot whoring, action RPG, brawler. It's not just a traditional beatemup, so your mileage may vary depending on how much that appeals to you.

A lot of the issues about the grind, pacing, endgame, or party formation are elements inherent to loot games.
 
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