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[Ekdrm2d1]

I like Bernie's haircut.

lol

 

[FiggyCal]

Just Google "Sanders marriage equality". Don't be sad, it was the entire party. It was the entire country.

This country really lets me down a lot

 

[SenorArdilla]

Obviously this is armchair consulting, but if I were a GOP strategist, my dream match up would be Sanders v Rubio, especially if he can backtrack his immigration stance to what it was pre primary.

Young, dynamic candidate who challenges the notion of the GOP as a white party versus an angry old white guy who has difficulties appealing to minorities. Would be a nigh lockup.

Of course, Trump and Cruz has basically made that an impossibility.

You mean they want Sanders because he would be the weaker candidate?

This country really lets me down a lot

Remember that interracial marriages were illegal in some parts of the US until 1967? Remember how people thought only gay people got AIDs? Things change.

 

[Neifirst]

Lol CNN burying Sanders. They just played the soundbite of him on tv about raising taxes, but cut off his explanation of the benefits on health care costs.

This obsession by the media is so tiresome, especially when they don't similarly harp on Clinton's proposal to pay for expanded family medical leave by raising the payroll tax on everyone.

 

[Staccat0]

Oh please. That is EXACTLY the same shit that GOP members are saying NOW.

Thats a step forward for them as well...

 

[JesseEwiak]

This country really lets me down a lot

LBJ went from a segregationist Dixiecrat to "We Shall Overcome" in a bout a decade. People can change. And that's a good thing.

 

[kcp12304]

From Politico

“I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages,” while running in 1996 for Illinois state Senate, in a written response to a questionnaire from Chicago’s Outlines gay newspaper.

“I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix.” - April 17, 2008, while running for president, defining marriage at the Saddleback Presidential Forum.

“I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that’s not what America’s about.” - Nov. 2, 2008, while running for president, in an interview with MTV.

I have been to this point unwilling to sign on to same-sex marriage primarily because of my understandings of the traditional definitions of marriage. But I also think you’re right that attitudes evolve, including mine.” - Oct. 27, 2010, as president, in an interview with a group of liberal bloggers.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

You mean they want Sanders because he would be the weaker candidate?

Yes, the RNC would clearly prefer to run against Sanders than Clinton. They're even sending out press releases tonight trumpeting how well Sanders did in the debate.

 

[FiggyCal]

Bernie Sanders actually did say "yes, his actions were deplorable" while saying that he's not going to answer the question on Bill Clinton. The absolute madman.

 

[Emarv]

This country really lets me down a lot

Don't be. It's called progress. It's a great thing. Be happy your children will be able to marry who they want and this will be a thing of the past.

Politicians evolve. It's vital to progressivism.

 

[lenovox1]

Has he?

He's been consistent regarding marriage equality from my understanding.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/...riage_equality_he_s_no_longtime_champion.html

He didn't care about gay rights 25 years ago and didn't support full marriage equality as recently as 2006.

But the tides change. None of the candidate on that stage would support stripping LGBT people of our constitutionally granted rights or an anti-marriage amendment, and that honestly should be what matters at the end of it.

 

[GnawtyDog]

This obsession by the media is so tiresome, especially when they don't similarly harp on Clinton's proposal to pay for expanded family medical leave by raising the payroll tax on everyone.

Hillary isn't the one saying he'll go and beat wallstreet down, Sanders is. Enemies are made. CNN is corporate media at its best.

 

[watershed]

Every politician has shifted on gay marriage unless they haven't in which case they are still against it. Simple as that.

 

[FiggyCal]

You mean they want Sanders because he would be the weaker candidate?



Remember that interracial marriages were illegal in some parts of the US until 1967? Remember how people thought only gay people got AIDs? Things change.

Yeah. But just consistently. It's just really bad.

 

[Tesseract]

welp, gg all

vote bernie / warren 2016

 

[Ekdrm2d1]

From Politico

 

[sssstententen]

If you openly state you will crush all economy super powers what else can you expect? Even with a good intention, I can't imagine Bernie can realistically work with this country given his "all rich are evil" attitude....unless what he really wants is a civil war/revolution?

Except he doesn't think all the rich are evil, that's just how people paint it to show him as an enemy.

I don't think anyone who is pro single payer, pro fixing the income gap, and/or pro removal of corruption in politics, want the rich to be gone, or inherently hate them. We just want them to play as the same rules as the rest of the country does, and pay their FAIR share of taxes. They will also surely reap the benefits of a more balanced system, which is increased economic prosperity for all when consumer confidence and spending power goes up, and the increased benefits of improved infrastructure, cheaper healthcare, and free college. These are all things the rich and poor can both benefit from.

 

[Ekdrm2d1]

nevermind

 

[Epsilon-delta]

My last post in this thread from watching this debate:

Trump is going to hit Hillary hard about Wall Street, and I hope she responds significantly better than what she has shown in the last four debates.

 

[Prodigal Son]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/...riage_equality_he_s_no_longtime_champion.html

He didn't care about gay rights 25 years ago and didn't support full marriage equality as recently as 2006.

But the tides change. None of the candidate on that stage would support stripping LGBT people of our constitutionally granted rights or an anti-marriage amendment, and that honestly should be what matters at the end of it.

While I (now) know he's changed his opinion about it relatively recently, what would voting against DOMA be if not a silent push in favor of equality?

Spoiler

I feel like I'm getting into revisionist-history territory with this argument.

 

[JesseEwiak]

My last post in this thread from watching this debate:

Trump is going to hit Hillary hard about Wall Street, and I hope she responds significantly better than what she has shown in the last four debates.

Considering Donald Trump's tax plan massively cut taxes for Wall Street people and by the general election, he'll likely have said he'll get rid of Dodd Frank because he's still running for the Republican nomination, I'm not that worried about it.

 

[AstroNut325]

Obviously this is armchair consulting, but if I were a GOP strategist, my dream match up would be Sanders v Rubio, especially if he can backtrack his immigration stance to what it was pre primary.

Young, dynamic candidate who challenges the notion of the GOP as a white party versus an angry old white guy who has difficulties appealing to minorities. Would be a nigh lockup.

Of course, Trump and Cruz has basically made that an impossibility.

That's the way I see it too.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Whoever was the first to coin this silly "my opinion evolved" phrase is annoying. It's called changing your mind. It's ok to change your mind. Doesn't matter who is speaking -- Barrack, Hillary, Sanders -- just say "I changed my mind about gay marriage. I want everyone to have the same protections under the law, regardless of who they love."

"I evolved." Oh, shit, well good for you. What if I always thought that any two adults should be able to marry? Am I primitive dinosaur because I didn't get to evolve?

 

[B-Dubs]

While I (now) know he's changed his opinion about it relatively recently, what would voting against DOMA be if not a silent push in favor of equality?

Spoiler

I feel like I'm getting into revisionist-history territory with this argument.

He said he voted against it because he felt it should be a state's issue, he later said Vermont shouldn't legalize same-sex marriage.

 

[User 463088]

I'm gay, obviously. I have no ill will against Bernie, Hillary or Obama for being pragmatic about their evolution on the issue. Obviously, they were wrong to be against it, or not seeing how it was important, but they're right now.

Hillary has been an amazing ally. She was the 1st First Lady to march in a gay pride parade. She's said she wants to be the first President to do the same. While she was at State, she focused on LGBT issues extensively. She's on the right side now.

The only time I criticize Bernie's stance is when someone pretends he's always been waiving the pride flag. He hasn't. He did what most of Americans did. He evolved.

 

[Dangansona]

Well unfortunately the local news stations with the distinct advantage of being in the city where the debate took place aren't bothering to conduct polls on the people in attendance apparently.

 

[lednerg]

I'm gay, obviously. I have no ill will against Bernie, Hillary or Obama for being pragmatic about their evolution on the issue. Obviously, they were wrong to be against it, or not seeing how it was important, but they're right now.

Hillary has been an amazing ally. She was the 1st First Lady to march in a gay pride parade. She's said she wants to be the first President to do the same. While she was at State, she focused on LGBT issues extensively. She's on the right side now.

The only time I criticize Bernie's stance is when someone pretends he's always been waiving the pride flag. He hasn't. He did what most of Americans did. He evolved.

Hate to be one of those guys, but here's Bernie in 1995:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49wD6_g_Bs

 

[Chezzymann]

Whoever was the first to coin this silly "my opinion evolved" phrase is annoying. It's called changing your mind. It's ok to change your mind. Whoever it is -- Barrack, Hillary, Sanders -- just say "I changed my mind about gay marriage. I want everyone to have the same protections under the law, regardless of who they love."

"I evolved." Oh, shit, well good for you. What if I always thought that any two adults should be able to marry? Am I primitive dinosaur because I didn't get to evolve?

I guess the reasoning is that when someone changes their mind, that means they're inconsistent, and if they're inconsistent then how do you know if they will change their mind again when they're president. Not saying I agree with that.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

You mean they want Sanders because he would be the weaker candidate?

I think they believe Sanders would be an easier opponent against an establishment candidate. Rubio would be the first choice, but Bush, Christie or even Fiorina (at least back when she was relevant) would do in a pinch.

It's harder to tell with Trump and Cruz. Sanders, Trump and Cruz are all tapping into the anger and disillusionment felt by their respective bases, who have long been neglected by their respective parties. This I feel is tougher to predict. I would personally bet Sanders, but the GOP might have good reason to think otherwise, especially considering Sanders has barely been attacked yet.

 

[Tesseract]

Whoever was the first to coin this silly "my opinion evolved" phrase is annoying. It's called changing your mind. It's ok to change your mind. Doesn't matter who is speaking -- Barrack, Hillary, Sanders -- just say "I changed my mind about gay marriage. I want everyone to have the same protections under the law, regardless of who they love."

"I evolved." Oh, shit, well good for you. What if I always thought that any two adults should be able to marry? Am I primitive dinosaur because I didn't get to evolve?

yer splitting hairs, m8

 

[Emarv]

Hate to be one of those guys, but here's Bernie in 1995:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49wD6_g_Bs

Please look up his full history. It's not a bad thing.

 

[Kangi]

Whoever was the first to coin this silly "my opinion evolved" phrase is annoying. It's called changing your mind. It's ok to change your mind. Doesn't matter who is speaking -- Barrack, Hillary, Sanders -- just say "I changed my mind about gay marriage. I want everyone to have the same protections under the law, regardless of who they love."

"I evolved." Oh, shit, well good for you. What if I always thought that any two adults should be able to marry? Am I primitive dinosaur because I didn't get to evolve?

It means you were born pre-evolved.

You were that baby at the end of 2001.

 

[danm999]

My last post in this thread from watching this debate:

Trump is going to hit Hillary hard about Wall Street, and I hope she responds significantly better than what she has shown in the last four debates.

It's a lot easier to hit Trump on that issue than Bernie.

He's proposing dropping the corporate tax rate to 15% for instance. He'd be Wall Street's best friend.

 

[royalan]

My last post in this thread from watching this debate:

Trump is going to hit Hillary hard about Wall Street, and I hope she responds significantly better than what she has shown in the last four debates.

The big difference is Trump doesn't have a leg to stand on making those kind of attacks on Hillary like Bernie does. Trump is a corrupt businessman who has actually used that corruption as a talking point with the extreme right . He tries to go at Hillary on that level, and she'll unleash on him.

 

[ant1532]

I'm gay, obviously. I have no ill will against Bernie, Hillary or Obama for being pragmatic about their evolution on the issue. Obviously, they were wrong to be against it, or not seeing how it was important, but they're right now.

Hillary has been an amazing ally. She was the 1st First Lady to march in a gay pride parade. She's said she wants to be the first President to do the same. While she was at State, she focused on LGBT issues extensively. She's on the right side now.

The only time I criticize Bernie's stance is when someone pretends he's always been waiving the pride flag. He hasn't. He did what most of Americans did. He evolved.

Bernie walked in pride parade as Vermont Mayor in '83. He's been always protecting anti-gay legislation.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

yer splitting hairs, m8

I know. I wasn't making any kind of political statement -- just an off-topic tangent. It's just one of those stupid word tools that politicians in general use to make themselves seem better, even when they were wrong in the first place.

 

[besada]

Oh please. That is EXACTLY the same shit that GOP members are saying NOW.

Did they also sign a Marriage Equality Act in 2009, as the first state to pass Marriage Equality via the legislature? Did they, at the time, already have civil unions in their state?

Bernie hasn't always been right on LGBT issues, but he's been more right, and earlier, than Clinton (either Clinton, or Obama) has. And comparing him to Republicans on the issue is just silly. Clinton waited another four years before she came out for marriage equality.

And let's not ignore that he voted against DOMA, and more importantly, to me, against Don't Ask, Don't Tell, a truly terrible policy that started a generation of anti-gay prosecutions.

Bernie Sanders, in 1976, as a plank in his platform, called for the abolition of the laws against homosexuality. In 83, he supported Vermont's first ever Pride march.

It's super fine not to want to vote for Bernie or not to like him, but it does a profound disservice to act as if he's anything like the Republicans have been on the issue.

 

[B-Dubs]

Hate to be one of those guys, but here's Bernie in 1995:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49wD6_g_Bs

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/sanders-has-evolved-same-sex-marriage-too-n454081

News reports from the early 2000s reveal a senator reluctant to embrace gay marriage even when his own relatively liberal state was going through its own debate on the issue. Sanders issued a statement "applauding" the Vermont Supreme Court for ruling that gay couples should be afforded the benefits of marriage — but not explicitly the right to marry — in 1999.

But the court sent the issue to the legislature to decide, and there Sanders initially refused to take a position.

As a well-respected columnist for the Vermont independent newsweekly Seven Days wrote in 2000, sussing out Sanders' stance on gay marriage at the time was like "pulling teeth…from a rhinocerous."

Gov. Howard Dean, Sen. Jim Jeffords and Sen. Patrick Leahy all took a position, all in opposition to gay marriage. Other Democrats in the state, including the two candidates for Senate and Sanders' successor as Mayor of Burlington, spoke out in favor of gay marriage.

Sanders, meanwhile, won the Vermont delegation's "Wishy-Washy Award," the columnist wrote, for his "carefully crafted non-statement" on the issue.

"By all accounts the legislature is approaching this issue in a considered and appropriate manner and I support the current process," the statement read.

It was a stance the paper decried as being informed by "gut-level paranoia" and a fear of saying "something that might alienate his conservative, rebel-loving rural following out in the hills."

After the legislature passed a civil unions bill, Sanders expressed support for that, but he stopped short of pushing for gay marriage to be recognized.

Six years later, when the George W. Bush Administration was pushing an amendment to the Constitution to define marriage as between one man and one woman, Sanders dismissed the move as "divisive." But asked by a reporter whether Vermont should legalize same-sex marriage, Sanders said "not right now; not after what we went through."

Everyone evolved on the issue dude.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Hearing very conflicting things about Sander's history.

 

[lednerg]

Please look up his full history. It's not a bad thing.

Don't take me as someone who worships the man and thinks he's never done wrong. I've got plenty of problems with him just like all the other politicians. Just so happens, I have less problems with him in comparison. If I'm only going to compare him with some golden standard that doesn't exist, then what the hell am I doing?

 

[ThisGuy]

I'm still indecisive on voting between hill and bern. Of course hill would beat repubs. In my mind at least.

But bern has been rising and now I'm not so sure if hill has this in the bag. Can Bernie beat Trump? Dems winning mean more than anything.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Did they also sign a Marriage Equality Act in 2009, as the first state to pass Marriage Equality via the legislature? Did they, at the time, already have civil unions in their state?

Bernie hasn't always been right on LGBT issues, but he's been more right, and earlier, than Clinton (either Clinton, or Obama) has. And comparing him to Republicans on the issue is just silly. Clinton waited another four years before she came out for marriage equality.

And let's not ignore that he voted against DOMA, and more importantly, to me, against Don't Ask, Don't Tell, a truly terrible policy that started a generation of anti-gay prosecutions.

Bernie Sanders, in 1976, as a plank in his platform, called for the abolition of the laws against homosexuality. In 83, he supported Vermont's first ever Pride march.

It's super fine not to want to vote for Bernie or not to like him, but it does a profound disservice to act as if he's anything like the Republicans have been on the issue.

I don't think Bernie was ever anti-gay. But, I do think he probably thought it as part of identity politics that got in the way of the revolution. Much like many current day liberals do when non-straight white males talk about anything that isn't inequality.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Did they also sign a Marriage Equality Act in 2009, as the first state to pass Marriage Equality via the legislature? Did they, at the time, already have civil unions in their state?

Bernie hasn't always been right on LGBT issues, but he's been more right, and earlier, than Clinton (either Clinton, or Obama) has. And comparing him to Republicans on the issue is just silly. Clinton waited another four years before she came out for marriage equality.

And let's not ignore that he voted against DOMA, and more importantly, to me, against Don't Ask, Don't Tell, a truly terrible policy that started a generation of anti-gay prosecutions.

Bernie Sanders, in 1976, as a plank in his platform, called for the abolition of the laws against homosexuality. In 83, he supported Vermont's first ever Pride march.

It's super fine not to want to vote for Bernie or not to like him, but it does a profound disservice to act as if he's anything like the Republicans have been on the issue.

I was in no way bringing it up as a negative towards Bernie. As already mentioned, all the candidates have evolved on the issue.

I was simply rebutting the poster''s attempt to use that stance as an excuse for not being for gay marriage, as if saying "its a states rights issue" isn't just a massive cop out.

 

[90sRobots]

FYI knew lotsa gay guys in the 90s that were ALSO against gay marriage! It was a silly notion!

 

[watershed]

Hearing very conflicting things about Sander's history.

Bernie was not always in favor of gay marriage, he is now. That's pretty much all you need to know. This isn't a dividing issue for any of the democratic candidates. None would "walk back" gay rights.

 

[lednerg]

I'm still indecisive on voting between hill and bern. Of course hill would beat repubs. In my mind at least.

But bern has been rising and now I'm not so sure if hill has this in the bag. Can Bernie beat Trump? Dems winning mean more than anything.

1) Two thirds of the country can't stand Trump and would never vote for him.

2) In order for a Republican to win the general election, they need to get 30% of the non-white vote.

 

[besada]

I don't think Bernie was ever anti-gay. But, I do think he probably thought it as part of identity politics that got in the way of the revolution. Much like many current day liberals do when non-straight white males talk about anything that isn't inequality.

Sure, but I think you also have to concede that he got to the right answers earlier than most of his peers, too.

 

[B-Dubs]

Bernie was not always in favor of gay marriage, he is now. That's pretty much all you need to know. This isn't a dividing issue for any of the democratic candidates. None would "walk back" gay rights.

Pretty much, it doesn't matter when any of them got there at this point. What matters is they are all there now and no one is going the wrong way.

Sure, but I think you also have to concede that he got to the right answers earlier than most of his peers, too.

Don't forget that he had cover for that view a lot earlier as well, he came around after Vermont legalized it. Not before.

 

[Meowster]

All it matters is that you are for gay marriage now (speaking as a young gay man). If you were in favor in the past, then you are a beast and an amazing person, but I'm not going to hold you for the sins that the VAST majority fell for.

 

[platformmaster918]

Whoever was the first to coin this silly "my opinion evolved" phrase is annoying. It's called changing your mind. It's ok to change your mind. Doesn't matter who is speaking -- Barrack, Hillary, Sanders -- just say "I changed my mind about gay marriage. I want everyone to have the same protections under the law, regardless of who they love."

"I evolved." Oh, shit, well good for you. What if I always thought that any two adults should be able to marry? Am I primitive dinosaur because I didn't get to evolve?

No that means we just caught up to your evolution level on that subject