It's already been known for a long time that Nintendo developed a tech demo for Star Fox and sat on it since the Wii, only for them to resuscitate it for the sake of the Wii U and eventually try securing a secondary team that could weave a full game out of it - hence the way it was displayed in 2014. Much of the game play and mechanics is Nintendo while the design in the full game is mostly Platinum's work.
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NWReport rumor: Nintendo "doubled down" on motion controls for Star Fox Zero
- Thread starter Oddduck
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It's already been known for a long time that Nintendo developed a tech demo for Star Fox and sat on it since the Wii, only for them to resuscitate it for the sake of the Wii U and eventually try securing a secondary team that could weave a full game out of it - hence the way it was displayed in 2014. Much of the game play and mechanics is Nintendo while the design in the full game is mostly Platinum's work.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
Oh no. I have been waiting for the game that stands up to my favorite N64 game, Starfox 64, for a long time. I'm not against motion controls in principle, but I am against motion controls that don't work and that don't add anything to the game control-wise that another type of control would do just fine.
We actually know that this is the case. Platinum was contracted mid-way through to create assets and the boss battles.
TDLink
Member
Yup, this is exactly where I'm coming from.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
I don't disagree with this either, especially since we already had SF64 remade on the 3DS five years ago. So for Zero to look like a wholesale throwback to 64 in light of that just makes the project even more uninspired and low-budget than it already is.
I think that one guy who predicted that the game wouldn't even exist had Miyamoto not shown interest in adapting the Wii U's controller capabilities with the StarFox series is exactly on the money, unfortunately. I have faith that Platinum will probably be able to deliver an engaging gameplay experience that is faithful to classic SF gameplay, but everything I've seen and heard about Zero so far reads to me as a low-budget experiment being promoted as a headlining new entry.
In terms of getting a well-received, new classic SF experience...Zero just comes off as wasted potential to me. It might turn out to be alright, but I bet I'm not alone when I say it could had been considerably bigger and better than what we're getting now.
GhostTrick
Banned
That's pretty much obvious Platinum was just contracted for the raw work. Not the creative side, otherwise we would have a fast paced action game with over the top sequences.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
They work great in Splatoon.
V_V
This is exactly how I feel. Same core gameplay, new content, new story, new levels, new ideas.
Instead we're getting different core gameplay, rehashed content, rehashed story, rehashed levels etc. We don't need to go back to Corneria and Zoness etc. We don't need the same characters following the same arcs.
Eh, it's early, so these fears might be unfounded but it certainly looks like the very opposite of what I'd want.
timetokill
Banned
Guess you'll be skipping VR entirely huh
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
Fair enough. I'm not too familiar about Assault or its reception, but I have heard some positive remarks about it, at least regarding its take on the classic SF gameplay. The on-foot segments and other things, not so much.
I did make a small note about how what happened with the Wii U / 3DS wasn't the first time Nintendo has come up on delivering a consistent flow of titles, which is part of why I'm skeptical about how the NX's library release schedule turns out.
This is sort of obvious in terms of Miyamoto's mentality in sequel development - he's not all that interested in making them unless there's a brand new spin on things that can be brought to the table. Things like turning Metroid into a first person shooter, simultaneous multiplayer in 3D Mario, and in this case, having the unique control method in Star Fox. In many ways that mentality has paid off, especially for something people wouldn't expect, but in some others it hasn't, probably because more people that seem to yearn for a game like Star Fox or F-Zero to return are complete enthusiasts at heart.
timetokill
Banned
When I think Mario, I think forced analog controls. What's wrong with traditional D-Pad controls? Miyamoto has lost it!
-GAF 20 years ago
-GAF 20 years ago
Miyamoto needs to retire. His ideas that everything needs to be new or there is no reason to release a sequel is non sense. Sometimes games hit a good formula and pistols love it and they just want new content on that formula.
A new Starfox and FZero that played like their predecessors but with better graphics, longer levels and more things happening on screen would have been fine and still sold well.
Stripping the story and funny script from sticker star or making every Zelda radically different from the other are some things I just don't agree with.
A new Starfox and FZero that played like their predecessors but with better graphics, longer levels and more things happening on screen would have been fine and still sold well.
Stripping the story and funny script from sticker star or making every Zelda radically different from the other are some things I just don't agree with.
TDLink
Member
Assault did a great job with the classic Star Fox gameplay. It had a new antagonist, new story, new locations, and progressed the characters in new and interesting ways. Overall that's pretty great. The problem is it was only 10 levels and only 3 of those were classic SF gameplay. The rest was crummy on foot stuff. Assault did a lot of things rights, but it needed to do more. It's too bad really. But it was more or less a step in the right direction. The multiplayer was great too.
Lionel Richie
Member
ITT:
And the bonus subsequent piling on Nintendo "legacy" games (goddamn I hate this term) and/or Shigeru Miyamoto dissing.
And the bonus subsequent piling on Nintendo "legacy" games (goddamn I hate this term) and/or Shigeru Miyamoto dissing.
I'm mostly glad that I stopped caring about Star Fox after SF64. I liked Assault well enough, but you can tell that SF concept had run its course by then. The idea of talking animals fighting in space is one that should have stayed buried in the 90's.
It's why Kid Icarus: Uprising was so refreshing. It took some of those Star Fox mechanics, expanded them and put them into a world that was interesting and full of possibilities. Give me a sequel to that.
I don't think SF Zero looks bad. It looks like the game Miyamoto talked about when he first unveiled it. Remember when he talked about it being a sort of episodic game? This game seems like it was always intended to be a lower budget experiment.
Those are my expectations for it anyway.
It's why Kid Icarus: Uprising was so refreshing. It took some of those Star Fox mechanics, expanded them and put them into a world that was interesting and full of possibilities. Give me a sequel to that.
I don't think SF Zero looks bad. It looks like the game Miyamoto talked about when he first unveiled it. Remember when he talked about it being a sort of episodic game? This game seems like it was always intended to be a lower budget experiment.
Those are my expectations for it anyway.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
This is disingenuous. Mario 64 floored everyone from the beginning.
abstract alien
Member
This pic will remain true until the end of time or boards aren't a thing anymore.ITT:
brandonh83
Banned
Game will bomb and be fucking off the chain awesome just like Wonderful 101 and some other PG developed titles.
True.
But, if we want to be topical and current, Miyamoto was also the one who got the developers for Splatoon on track with their project (a modern day Metroid Prime moment of sorts). So, should he retire because his influence farted out a bad Star Fox or should he not retire because his influence made one of the best games of this generation?
Miyamoto hardly develops anything anymore, all he does is serve as a consultant. The question becomes what the developers under him do with his consultancy. In Splatoon's case, they made a great game. In SMM's case, they made a great game out of it. In Star Fox Zero, they seemingly made a trainwreck. In Sticker Star they gutted the story and went some other way with it.
At the end of the day, all I see is people calling for Miyamoto to retire because they have nothing but cursory comprehension of what he does and have no desire to learn. He will no doubt make (and does make) missteps in his ideas and what he pushes or throws at the developers actually making the games, but they also have the ability to defend their projects and say "no" to him or spin his ideas into good ideas.
Only for the charger. My problem with Splatoon motion controls is that it interprets my natural resting position as "down" and everything fucks up from there, so i have to constantly be thinking about the positioning of my body along with playing the game.
I'd love it more if it was just aim assist, like, motion controls were only on when you're holding the firing button down. Playing the amiibo charger challenges made me tempted to try the motion controls again, but it just doesn't work.
kitchenmotors
Banned
Exactly.
When it comes to Nintendo I don't take any rumors seriously, even if it's from members here. I feel like shit is made up way too often.
I skipped reading most of the posts because I figure it's mostly reactionary complaints. (Perhaps I'll take a deep breath afterwards and take a peek. *shudder*) EDIT: tried reading first page. OMG I'm right.
Anyway, this sounds like good news. It's better for them to go all the way with the vision for how the game should play. Well implemented motion controls can be very effective and I'm not particularly attached to traditional Star Fox controls.
Anyway, this sounds like good news. It's better for them to go all the way with the vision for how the game should play. Well implemented motion controls can be very effective and I'm not particularly attached to traditional Star Fox controls.
GhostTrick
Banned
This has nth to do with W101 nor usual PG titles. Where's the action, where's the ambition, where's the over the top scenes, where's the fast pace ?
SF0 just look like a slow and boring shooter with a gimmick shoehorned to it. It would've been a lot more appealing with a faster gameplay and just the arwing transforming into a mech or the dinosaur thing for on foot gameplay.
It's pretty obvious PG here is doing an asset work, not a creative work.
TDLink
Member
Miyamoto's a genius. There's no denying that. But I think his policy that a new game has to have some big new idea is inherently flawed. Sometimes more of the same is a good thing. With Miyamoto in charge of software development we basically never get that. It leads to lots of great and diverse games within a series, but it's still disappointing when they hit it out of the park and refuse to give you more. Some franchises go completely dormant because Miyamoto doesn't have an idea. This was one of them. F-Zero is another. I don't want Nintendo to be like Assassin's Creed where every game is essentially the same and coming out on an annual basis, but another title in the vein of the classic games of the franchise should be acceptable after a decade hiatus.
Agent Unknown
Member
Sounds like it could have been Star Fox Zero Mission but is shaping up to be more like Star Fox Other F.
Pro from Dover
Member
I dig motion controls, but that's my problem.
Star Fox 0 is gonna be fun!
For those who need regular controls, I can't lie to you about your chances, but... you have my sympathies.
Star Fox 0 is gonna be fun!
For those who need regular controls, I can't lie to you about your chances, but... you have my sympathies.
Indeed. If it weren't for Miyamoto putting the team on the spot, Splatoon ran the risk of being a low-key IP about weird bunnies, or more likely, yet another Mario spin-off. Instead he had them think outside the box and out of it we've got the most successful new first party IP this generation. For all the misinformed Paper Mario horror stories I still find it funny people omit the time he actually put his foot down on a project which came to everyone's benefit.
The entire reason of wanting Miyamoto gone is wholly contingent and looking passed the things we don't hear about him which effectively boils down to a large majority of Nintendo's output since he's still responsible for overseeing what these teams at Nintendo push out, and the hits far outweigh the duds.
This isn't the case. This is a myth that people have invented in their heads and then perpetuate in echo chambers such as this one.
He didn't demand a "new thing" from the guys working on Splatoon. He just asked them why anyone would even play their game, or what it was that they were looking to accomplish with it. Guess what, they realized they had no idea what they were doing until they were questioned on it. He's a consultant who gives direction and suggestions, he doesn't develop the games or demand they be developed in some way.
Go read the Splatoon dev interview. That's what Miyamoto does nowadays and what he's done for years since becoming a head of the company rather than a developer. He doesn't run into offices, flip over tables, and demand that they reinvent third person shooting.
This is also because his comment is bundled with an article not so clever written.
GhostTrick
Banned
The difference is, Miyamoto's input on Splatoon and on other games is a different one. On Splatoon, he didn't brought an idea or creative decision. He encourage younger devs. On the projects he's being criticized for, he actually had a creative input, actively insisting on a precise idea, like the "no story" bit for Paper Mario Sticker Star or the "include this gimmick" for Star Fox Zero.
I hope "doubling down on motion" means they've added an intuitive control scheme that far surpasses analog stick controls, allows for separate aiming and flight, suffers no calibration issues, and all without the distraction of two screens or any strain on the graphics:
I'm still holding out hope it'll turn out alright, but it certainly doesn't look good and almost everyone who's played it has confirmed it doesn't play any better. Even in the best case scenario, there's no way this gamepad setup is going to top Sin and Punishment's IR controls, which would have translated perfectly to Starfox. Zero's control scheme is almost the embodiment of everything people dislike about the system itself; the uninteresting dual screen gimmick, the distraction being split between two screens brings, the huge hit to the hardware/graphics the gamepad caused. In a way, it's the perfect Wii U game. All the mistakes of the hardware are represented in the software.
With any luck there'll still be a wii remote option. The game was in development for 6 years on Wii, so hopefully it ends up like Pikmin 3 and retains that option. It won't fix the shitty dual screen graphics, though.
Gyro controls may technically be more accurate, but in use they're slower because they require much more physical movement and are prone to calibration issues.
This isn't a case like Skyward Sword where "accuracy" matters. All that's needed is manipulating a cursor on screen, and the IR camera does a faster, more reliable job of that than a gyroscope. Most people consider a mouse to be the best pointer control, and it's hardly sophisticated compared to a gyro.
I'm still holding out hope it'll turn out alright, but it certainly doesn't look good and almost everyone who's played it has confirmed it doesn't play any better. Even in the best case scenario, there's no way this gamepad setup is going to top Sin and Punishment's IR controls, which would have translated perfectly to Starfox. Zero's control scheme is almost the embodiment of everything people dislike about the system itself; the uninteresting dual screen gimmick, the distraction being split between two screens brings, the huge hit to the hardware/graphics the gamepad caused. In a way, it's the perfect Wii U game. All the mistakes of the hardware are represented in the software.
With any luck there'll still be a wii remote option. The game was in development for 6 years on Wii, so hopefully it ends up like Pikmin 3 and retains that option. It won't fix the shitty dual screen graphics, though.
Gyro controls may technically be more accurate, but in use they're slower because they require much more physical movement and are prone to calibration issues.
This isn't a case like Skyward Sword where "accuracy" matters. All that's needed is manipulating a cursor on screen, and the IR camera does a faster, more reliable job of that than a gyroscope. Most people consider a mouse to be the best pointer control, and it's hardly sophisticated compared to a gyro.
I agree that the gameplay seemed kind of slow at e3. That was one of my concerns after seeing SF0 for the first time. However that could be because they demoed what were basically tutorial levels. I expect it to get a bit more hectic later after the controls have been mastered.
Surely just pressing Y to re-center the camera when in the resting position should solve that?
The interesting thing is that a lot of the different stuff they've introduced for StarFox over the years since 64 are, many of them, good ideas that were implemented weirdly, or ideas that were not enough to define the game on their own. On-foot combat in Assault wasn't a bad idea, the engine for it was just terrible (imagine if it controlled as well as Splatoon). Command's strategic concerns were well-executed, but the main gameplay was barebones due to DS limitations and the story was a hot mess. Now we've got gyro controls, transforming vehicles, and independent aiming, also all good ideas.
Half of it is that Nintendo hasn't treated this as a AAA property since SF64. An ambitious game could take some of everything that we've seen since then, and polish it all to a shine, but a lot of the angst over this title, as others here have noted, seems to revolve around the fact that Nintendo isn't giving this game the prominence they feel it deserves.
Although I agree that the game could be a blockbuster if Nintendo did try to give it more focus. It'd be ripe for a cartoon tie-in, for one, and there's a lot of different stuff you could do in a single game, taking inspiration from all of the post-64 games but taking the time and the budget to do it all right.
Half of it is that Nintendo hasn't treated this as a AAA property since SF64. An ambitious game could take some of everything that we've seen since then, and polish it all to a shine, but a lot of the angst over this title, as others here have noted, seems to revolve around the fact that Nintendo isn't giving this game the prominence they feel it deserves.
Although I agree that the game could be a blockbuster if Nintendo did try to give it more focus. It'd be ripe for a cartoon tie-in, for one, and there's a lot of different stuff you could do in a single game, taking inspiration from all of the post-64 games but taking the time and the budget to do it all right.
thekiddfran
Member
Is this the 3ds looking Starfox game that is coming to Wii u?
Glorious.
Glorious.
Agent Unknown
Member
It's not something he should be allowed to insist and force every time, that's for sure, but otherwise you nailed it in that sometimes he goes a bit overboard with this for certain series like Star Fox. I remember when Dan Owsen used to do the old Nintendo.com weekly fan e-mail Q&A in the late '90s, of course one of the most frequent questions was how come we haven't gotten a sequel to Star Fox 64? At one point Dan replied 'Mr. Miyamoto felt Star Fox 64 satisfied him with all of the great features and modes it included and feels that before he could consider a sequel he would need a really fresh, exciting new idea to base it on.' Not having sequels to games like Star Fox and Mario 64 (not sure if that also fell under this reasoning but guessing it did) just compounded the N64's awful draughts.
You've got to be kidding me if that's the one thing i could have done to solve this :-(
Now i want to leave work and try it...
(thank you).
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
ITT:
And the bonus subsequent piling on Nintendo "legacy" games (goddamn I hate this term) and/or Shigeru Miyamoto dissing.
At least those complaining about message boards about games they haven't played are actually on topic. And save for some (inevitable) exceptions, they're at least providing (reasonable) explanations as to why they're complaining.
IMO it's a giant step up than drive-by shitposts like this one that complain against complainers more on principle rather than anything else.
TDLink
Member
I'm not talking about Miyamoto's influence and guidance for younger teams and with new projects/IP like Splatoon. I'm talking about his policy on existing Nintendo franchises. He has stated, for example, that he has to think of a way a new F-Zero could be different in order for it to be worthwhile to make. That same principle is being applied to Star Fox, which he previously applied in Command as recounted by Dylan Cuthbert in interviews. And it's now been a decade since that game as well.
So most people haven't played this game yet, right? Just wanted to make sure how much weight I should add to these comments.
I love motion controls when they are responsive, immersive and done well, so I'll wait for the finished product and try it myself rather than listening to people who react like they've heard the boogeyman is in their room when they hear the words "motion control".
All the people crowing about VR will have to inherently use motion controls if they want to have true interaction with their VR environements, anyway.
I love motion controls when they are responsive, immersive and done well, so I'll wait for the finished product and try it myself rather than listening to people who react like they've heard the boogeyman is in their room when they hear the words "motion control".
All the people crowing about VR will have to inherently use motion controls if they want to have true interaction with their VR environements, anyway.
I would not be at all surprised if this rumor is true. Nintendo's complete inability to give people want they want with certain series/IP is insane. They've even acknowledged in the past the know what people want but they want to offer more. Doing so is how we end up in possible situations like this.
If true this will be the second known time where Miyamoto unfortunately has very likely hurt a game by forcing design decisions. The motion control in Star Fox Zero has always gotten a mixed reaction. Some thought it was okay and others disliked it. I've yet to read a impression where anyone loved it or thought it was great. For a Nintendo game to have that reaction in regard to the controls is never a good sign. If they can't make them work well it should be scrapped. Do not force it. Certainly do not make the level design dependent on the motion controls. That's what I fear might be happening. In that situation disabling the motion controls and scrapping them might not improve the game in the end. You'd have to redesign the levels.
If true this will be the second known time where Miyamoto unfortunately has very likely hurt a game by forcing design decisions. The motion control in Star Fox Zero has always gotten a mixed reaction. Some thought it was okay and others disliked it. I've yet to read a impression where anyone loved it or thought it was great. For a Nintendo game to have that reaction in regard to the controls is never a good sign. If they can't make them work well it should be scrapped. Do not force it. Certainly do not make the level design dependent on the motion controls. That's what I fear might be happening. In that situation disabling the motion controls and scrapping them might not improve the game in the end. You'd have to redesign the levels.
Like Vena said; that's not the kind of thing Miyamoto really does at all these days. The original source of Miyamoto going against a "story" wasn't presented as a demand but as a legitimate developer question to ponder. This is the actual quote from the Iwata Asks where this was first confirmed:
You know what fits into that particular bill? Mario & Luigi Paper Jam - a game which did not have that much of a "story" either with it's standard plot but was nonetheless filled to the brim with funny writing and moments. Not to mention, the choice to cut an elaborate story was one IntSys made predominantly on their own accord after they conveyed surveys when they found out people didn't care for Super Paper Mario's extensive story. The problem wasn't that Miyamoto leveled the idea; the problem was that IntSys didn't challenge it and actually completely agreed.
And in spite of the limitations of a story they came up with an incredibly tepid solution. By "focusing on characters from the Super Mario world", they instead had every NPC be a Toad and the fun writing mostly took a complete nose dive.
This myth that Miyamoto "killed" Paper Mario needs to die, and even if he did kill it, it did not stop IntSys from shitting out a poorly designed game.
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