Support NeoGAF

[Sir_Crocodile]

Boris wants out, BBC understands http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Boris to never be PM

Farage, Gove, Galloway, Boris

whata club

 

[Beefy]

In the end it is a gamble, i have reasons as a leftie to vote for exit, and reasons to fear how events can spiral out of control.

I despise Boris, i think it is a perfectly valid position to hold.

Cameron and Osborne more then level it out for me. I am slightly leaning towards a stay vote.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

No government can provide state aid to protect an industry thus creating one members industry be anti competitive against the rest. France did it for example did it with the games industry and blocked attempts for the UK to do the same.

This is the thing how can France give state aid to their industries but also have the ability to block the UK from doing the same ? The more I hear about the EU, the more it comes across as a club where France and Germany can do what ever the hell they like but the rest have to tow the line or else.

As for people choosing a side based on the personalities involved, I mean really. I cannot stand IDS I think he is a loathsome sorry excuse for a human being but it won't stop me voting to leave the EU.

 

[Vashetti]

Boris wants out, BBC understands http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Boris is about to speak live on Sky News at 5pm

 

[uncleniccius]

Yeah, he's on team out.

 

[PJV3]

This is the thing how can France give state aid to their industries but also have the ability to block the UK from doing the same ? The more I hear about the EU, the more it comes across as a club where France and Germany can do what ever the hell they like but the rest have to tow the line or else.

As for people choosing a side based on the personalities involved, I mean really. I cannot stand IDS I think he is a loathsome sorry excuse for a human being but it won't stop me voting to leave the EU.

I find it strange you don't factor in the politicians and the agenda that will be pushed by them after the referendum. Voting to exit will be the start of a process and will strengthen people like Boris and his ambitions.

There is a lot more to this than just staying in or not.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Yeah, he's on team out.

Godspeed, you glorious buffoon

 

[Tak3n]

Boris to never be PM

Farage, Gove, Galloway, Boris

whata club

No, the consensus is for him to be PM he had to be on the out, as he needs the core Tory support who are eurosceptic

 

[Beefy]

Godspeed, you glorious buffoon

My uncle knows him. He is anything but a buffoon. He puts on a act to look dumb to appeal to people.

 

[Tak3n]

From team Boris.. Round 1 to the Out campaign

BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said Mr Johnson's decision would be seen as a huge boost to the Out campaign and a major blow to the prime minister, who had hoped to persuade friends and rivals to back the campaign to remain.
Addressing reporters outside his home in north London, Mr Johnson said the EU was a "political project" that was in "real danger of getting out of proper democratic control".
He praised the prime minister for the deal he negotiated with EU leaders to reform the British relationship with the EU, saying Mr Cameron had done "fantastically well" in a short space of time.
"But I don't think anybody could realistically claim this is fundamental reform of the EU or of Britain's relationship with the EU," he said.
The MP added: "It's my view, after 30 years of writing about this, we have a chance, actually to do something. I have a chance to do something," saying he wanted a relationship with the EU based on "trade and co-operation".

 

[QuicheFontaine]

My uncle knows him. He is anything but a buffoon. He puts on a act to look dumb to appeal to people.

I was only kidding Beef, I like Boris. That photo of him ziplining always makes me laugh though.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

I find it strange you don't factor in the politicians and the agenda that will be pushed by them after the referendum. Voting to exit will be the start of a process and will strengthen people like Boris and his ambitions.

There is a lot more to this than just staying in or not.

Yeah and if we vote to leave we critically damage Davey and ensure his only legacy is "The PM that failed to keep the UK in Europe". Now having said that I am not voting to leave simply because I want to stick it to Davey, but it is a nice lil bit of icing on the cake.

At the end of the day both sides have their fair share of cunts so it all balances itself out.

 

[kmag]

In the end it is a gamble, i have reasons as a leftie to vote for exit, and reasons to fear how events can spiral out of control.

I despise Boris, i think it is a perfectly valid position to hold.

The thing is Boris is the son of a Euro-securitrac, was brought up in Brussels, the rest of his family are avowedly pro-european, and while's he's largely taken shots at the EU in his newspaper columns he's never exactly been anti-EU, he's not Clarke by any means but he's not exactly Bill Cash either, he's largely been a lukewarm EU supporter. This road to damascus moment where he suddenly decided that he's out is basically a political calculation as a move which gives him the best shot at Tory leadership/being PM.

 

[Beefy]

I was only kidding Beef, I like Boris. That photo of him ziplining always makes me laugh though.

Ah. I thought you were one of many that bought his act. He seems ok for a mp.

 

[Tak3n]

The thing is Boris is the son of a Euro-securitrac, was brought up in Brussels, the rest of his family are avowedly pro-european, and while's he's largely taken shots at the EU in his newspaper columns he's never exactly been anti-EU, he's not Clarke by any means but he's not exactly Bill Cash either, he's largely been a lukewarm EU supporter. This road to damascus moment where he suddenly decided that he's out is basically a political calculation as a move which gives him the best shot at Tory leadership/being PM.

This, they even said on Daily politics that his hopes of becoming PM had been made clear to him by his supporters and and desire to be PM meant he had to be a 'out' campaigner

 

[Jumeira]

Whatever Boris does, he an endearing individual that ozzes charisma. He's likeable, which in politics is rare.

He'll keep his distance from Farage/Galloway, and the public is smart enough to see that IMO.

 

[Tak3n]

Whatever Boris does, he an endearing individual that ozzes charisma. He's likeable, which in politics is rare.

He'll keep his distance from Farage/Galloway, and the public is smart enough to see that.

I love the fact that Cameron even publicly wooed him on national TV and it backfired

 

[CalamityPixel]

Whatever Boris does, he an endearing individual that ozzes charisma. He's likeable, which in politics is rare.

He'll keep his distance from Farage/Galloway, and the public is smart enough to see that IMO.

Boris is just a funny guy, it's definitely an act like Beefy said above, but he knows how to appeal to the public.

 

[Newline]

Boris is just a funny guy, it's definitely an act like Beefy said above, but he knows how to appeal to the public.

In my mind the charade he keeps going just makes him even more repulsive. The guy is a typical career politician. I'd feel sick in the stomach if he became our PM.

 

[Bold One]

In my mind the charade he keeps going just makes him even more repulsive. The guy is a typical career politician. I'd feel sick in the stomach if he became our PM.

You better stock up on sick bags, look over the pond and see the rise of Trump

brace yourself

 

[Oriel]

To answer the failures of the EU, we must have more EU.

It's funny how Euroskeptics lambast any failings by the EU despite insisting they not be given the powers to tackle any problems in Europe. I'm reminded of those who criticise the EU for the migrant crisis despite also being the same people who demand that the EU return to being an exclusively economic free trade area. FTA's don't patrol the border you know?

This is not just because of Britain. Nobody wants this, at least in the short term. You can't make a federation out of different countries without massive trouble. That is still the main problem in the EU, we are not European, we are French, German, Spanish, etc. Just look at the complaints when money goes towards other countries for development or subsidies there. We don't want to pay for other countries. Forcing a new government like that on top of the current nations is impossible. That has to grow slowly, or start with a few states in and proving joining is a good thing. Now it is too late.

It is because of Britain that the EU is too weak to adequately deal with the problems facing it. Every attempt at closer integration and cooperation is repeatedly vetoed by the British, most recently the Fiscal Treaty which didn't even affect the UK, it was voluntary for non-Eurozone countries.

As for your claim that you don't want to pay for other countries I'd remind you that fiscal transfers take place between the "nation's" within the UK, with England subsidising Wales ands NI (Scotland is a net contributor to the UK budget). Also the UK provides overseas development aid to developing countries. Presumably you want that nearly 1% of GDP that goeon overseas aid to be abolished? Sounds rather selfish if I'm being honest.

this is why

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35604776

a whole town ruined because one companies exploitation and landlords creating shanty towns... of course your answer will be that the police and council need to control it, but we know that is not possible..

The area might of been shit before (I don't know the area at all) but if you have lived in that area your whole life and you see it become this, I expect you would be against mass uncontrolled immigration

I know Bolsover quite well and it's long been a dump. But if thousands of Scots were imported by SportsDirect to the town would that mean you'd favour Hadrian's Wall being rebuilt?

 

[Tak3n]

It's funny how Euroskeptics lambast any failings by the EU despite insisting they not be given the powers to tackle any problems in Europe. I'm reminded of those who criticise the EU for the migrant crisis despite also being the same people who demand that the EU return to being an exclusively economic free trade area. FTA's don't patrol the border you know?



It is because of Britain that the EU is too weak to adequately deal with the problems facing it. Every attempt at closer integration and cooperation is repeatedly vetoed by the British, most recently the Fiscal Treaty which didn't even affect the UK, it was voluntary for non-Eurozone countries.

As for your claim that you don't want to pay for other countries I'd remind you that fiscal transfers take place between the "nation's" within the UK, with England subsidising Wales ands NI (Scotland is a net contributor to the UK budget). Also the UK provides overseas development aid to developing countries. Presumably you want that nearly 1% of GDP that goeon overseas aid to be abolished? Sounds rather selfish if I'm being honest.



I know Bolsover quite well and it's long been a dump. But if thousands of Scots were imported by SportsDirect to the town would that mean you'd favour Hadrian's Wall being rebuilt?

No, but I was replying to someone who posted that he did not understand anyone not liking free movement...

you have clarified it is a dump, but it did not make the main news for being a dump, it made the news because of companies and landlords abusing the freedom of movement to better their own ends, but be it Scottish, Polish or Chinese, if you have lived there your whole life and suddenly the area has now changed so much to what it is now, you would not be reaching to understand people who live there not liking mass immigration

 

[AHA-Lambda]

All the way IN

 

[Oriel]

It really wasn't bullshit. The Scottish government wrote to the EU Commission asking if they would have to reapply as a new member state and were told categorically yes, they would.

The EU isn't looking for new members right now, and in any case new members have to be unanimously approved by existing not members. Certain members (cough, Spain) have a vested interest in not approving.

If a part of a US State broke away, say New York City's repeated threats to secede from New York State they don't suddenly stop being part of the United States. It's the same principle behind the EU and the Commission's assertion Scotland (and Catalonia) would need to rejoin was more about politics and pressure from Britain and Spain than anything else. All the thousands of pages of EU law, regulations and directives that are in effect in Scotland wouldn't suddenly cease to exist in the effect of Scottish independence.

 

[Maledict]

It is because of Britain that the EU is too weak to adequately deal with the problems facing it. Every attempt at closer integration and cooperation is repeatedly vetoed by the British, most recently the Fiscal Treaty which didn't even affect the UK, it was voluntary for non-Eurozone countries.

That's nonsense.

Sorry - I'm an "in" person, and am volunteering for the In campaign, but to blame the UK for the reason Europe cannot handle its current issues is on every level factually incorrect. For one thing, it wasn't British voters who rejected the referendum on the European constitution. For another, what has Britain's veto got to do with the migrant crisis on the eastern borders? And the Fiscal treaty went ahead despite the British veto and that made absolutely no difference to the end result?

Claiming that all of Europe's ills are a result of British negligence ignores the rising tide of anti-EU populism sweeping across Europe, and the massive fundamental problems that setting up any fiscal union without political union was always going to bring. Europe is flawed - it's just a much better option than anything else.

 

[DavidDesu]

In. Europe isn't perfect but maintaining good ties with our continental friends is better than isolating ourselves from them. My main concern is that the EU often derails the Tories in their frankly evil machinations.

Only reason they want to remove the a human rights act and to replace it with their own version is to lead us into a corporate overlord fantasy land. Working time directive? Nah, work 80 hour weeks as standard says our Tory overlords!

They of course use the fear of terrorism to try and push all this crap through but EU laws do a good job of stopping them going balls to the wall fascist dictatorship on our asses. The fact the main proponents of leaving include Ian Duncan Smith tells you all you need to know.

IN.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Only reason they want to remove the a human rights act and to replace it with their own version is to lead us into a corporate overlord fantasy land. Working time directive? Nah, work 80 hour weeks as standard says our Tory overlords!

Don't we already have an opt-out for the working time directive?

 

[Audioboxer]

All the way IN

You never go all the way in ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[SporeCrawler]

That's nonsense.

Sorry - I'm an "in" person, and am volunteering for the In campaign, but to blame the UK for the reason Europe cannot handle its current issues is on every level factually incorrect. For one thing, it wasn't British voters who rejected the referendum on the European constitution. For another, what has Britain's veto got to do with the migrant crisis on the eastern borders? And the Fiscal treaty went ahead despite the British veto and that made absolutely no difference to the end result?

Claiming that all of Europe's ills are a result of British negligence ignores the rising tide of anti-EU populism sweeping across Europe, and the massive fundamental problems that setting up any fiscal union without political union was always going to bring. Europe is flawed - it's just a much better option than anything else.

the treaty on the functioning of the european union is pretty much a european constitution though. three independent organizations (EC, EURATOM and the Montan Union) were merged into one and there is a bill of rights/human rights charter. from a legal perspective it has been an incredible leap from what was there before.

and I agree that the european union should be a political union not only a fiscal union. there is a need to make the next step and I am just not seeing UK as part of that next step as they think they can solve their problems alone (which is their prerogative).

 

[operon]

IN
quite why anyone worries what Boris thinks I don't know

 

[Cheeseman Battitude]

Together we stand, divided we fall.

IN.

 

[Beefy]

Together we stand, divided we fall.

IN.

Or Together we fall, divided we fall.

 

[jelly]

In. Europe isn't perfect but maintaining good ties with our continental friends is better than isolating ourselves from them. My main concern is that the EU often derails the Tories in their frankly evil machinations.

Only reason they want to remove the a human rights act and to replace it with their own version is to lead us into a corporate overlord fantasy land. Working time directive? Nah, work 80 hour weeks as standard says our Tory overlords!

They of course use the fear of terrorism to try and push all this crap through but EU laws do a good job of stopping them going balls to the wall fascist dictatorship on our asses. The fact the main proponents of leaving include Ian Duncan Smith tells you all you need to know.

IN.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too. Nothing to hold them back.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

If a part of a US State broke away, say New York City's repeated threats to secede from New York State they don't suddenly stop being part of the United States. It's the same principle behind the EU and the Commission's assertion Scotland (and Catalonia) would need to rejoin was more about politics and pressure from Britain and Spain than anything else. All the thousands of pages of EU law, regulations and directives that are in effect in Scotland wouldn't suddenly cease to exist in the effect of Scottish independence.

Lol, the hell? That's a completely different scenario. We're talking about Scotland leaving the UK. So yes, it would suddenly stop being part of the UK. That's the whole point.

The rUK would have been the successor state and yes, indy Scotland would have been a third-country with respect to the EU. The Commission's letter made this clear, they'd have to reapply.

Would it have been fast-tracked? I dunno. Probably, as that would be pragmatic. But they would have to reapply as a new state.

As for EU law "ceasing to exist", indy Scotland would of course be free to keep enforcing that law within their territory. That doesn't make them a member of the EU though.

 

[Dabanton]

IN
quite why anyone worries what Boris thinks I don't know

Boris is a very deft, very ruthless political animal. Who uses a well honed 'buffoon' act.

And is able to connect with a lot of the general public by not acting like a politician.

 

[danthefan]

I'm from Ireland and I think there will be huge consequences for us if the UK leave the EU. The UK is by an absolute mile our biggest trading partner, we have an open border with the UK, so I'm certainly hoping they don't leave the EU.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

Yeah, that's my thoughts too. Nothing to hold them back.

Wouldn't voting for the other guys hold them back? Don't need the EU to do that.

 

[kharma45]

I'm from Ireland and I think there will be huge consequences for us if the UK leave the EU. The UK is by an absolute mile our biggest trading partner, we have an open border with the UK, so I'm certainly hoping they don't leave the EU.

There was also an open border before the EU. that won't change.

 

[OgTheClever]

Crap, I didn't read the poll description and I clicked yes to stay in the EU. (due to the thread title of in or out) Is there a way to re-vote?

 

[ATF487]

In. I think the UK stands to lose more than it gains with independence.

Spoiler

Can I vote as UK GAF if my UK passport will come before the referendum?

 

[dose]

I'm on the fence right now but who gives a shit what Boris thinks? I have no idea why the press are so interested in what he says.

 

[gofreak]

I'm on the fence right now but who gives a shit what Boris thinks? I have no idea why the press are so interested in what he says.

The 'Westminster bubble'. It adds another political story of Tory leadership to the whole thing even if that ought to be relatively small potatoes next to the core issue here.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

I'm on the fence right now but who gives a shit what Boris thinks? I have no idea why the press are so interested in what he says.

He's popular, very popular.

 

[jelly]

Wouldn't voting for the other guys hold them back? Don't need the EU to do that.

Tories are in for a good few years more to do what they like and none of the parties are trust worthy to do anything but for themselves or really interests and idiotic ideas. EU has at least some sanity with broad laws and regulation so it's a decent balance.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

In. I think the UK stands to lose more than it gains with independence.

Spoiler

Can I vote as UK GAF if my UK passport will come before the referendum?

The requirement depends on citizenship rather than you having a passport.

You might also be able to vote in the referendum even if you aren't a UK citizen - for example, if you're a Commonwealth citizen resident in the UK.

 

[Oriel]

No, but I was replying to someone who posted that he did not understand anyone not liking free movement...

you have clarified it is a dump, but it did not make the main news for being a dump, it made the news because of companies and landlords abusing the freedom of movement to better their own ends, but be it Scottish, Polish or Chinese, if you have lived there your whole life and suddenly the area has now changed so much to what it is now, you would not be reaching to understand people who live there not liking mass immigration

That's not the fault of free movement, that's the fault of giant knobheads like Mike Ashley who treat their employees like shit. If it wasn't Polish or Romanians being treated like serfs it would be Scots or Irish, as was the case back in the 60's when Irish workers flooded to England to build motorways and public housing schemes. Want to stop all this exploitation, lobby your MP for proper enforcement of labour laws and local councils clamping down on dodgy landlords.

That's nonsense.

Sorry - I'm an "in" person, and am volunteering for the In campaign, but to blame the UK for the reason Europe cannot handle its current issues is on every level factually incorrect. For one thing, it wasn't British voters who rejected the referendum on the European constitution.

I never mentioned the European Constitution.

For another, what has Britain's veto got to do with the migrant crisis on the eastern borders?

The common argument by Europhobes is that the European Union needs to go back to being about the "Common Market" and yet they complain about its "failings", most recently the issue of 1 million refugees flooding into the EU. Britain has already expressed scepticism surrounding the Commission proposed European Coast Guard to help deal with the migrant crisis. Wow, what a surprise. Every single time there's proposals for better coordination among Europe's members Britain (though admittedly not just them in many cases) is often in the lead opposing such measures and getting it watered down. It's why I want Britain out, because they've held back European integration for too long.

That's nonsense.
And the Fiscal treaty went ahead despite the British veto and that made absolutely no difference to the end result?

It only got implemented because it was enacted as an international agreement outside the EU structures. Cameron could have just kept quiet and allowed the Eurozone to go ahead with this much needed piece of legislation that wouldn't have affected British in any manner. Why did Cameron even veto the FT to begin with, to show how strong and powerful he was? It showed how infantile and childish Cameron and the Tories really were.

Claiming that all of Europe's ills are a result of British negligence ignores the rising tide of anti-EU populism sweeping across Europe, and the massive fundamental problems that setting up any fiscal union without political union was always going to bring. Europe is flawed - it's just a much better option than anything else.

Anti-EU populism is completely overstated. How many MP's does Pegida have in the German Parliament? How did Le Pen get on in the recent French regional elections? Hell even when they do get into power, like Syriza in Greece they end up meekly adopting EU policies anyway. Europe IS flawed, but that's because it's not integrated enough. Only when we get true federalism can Europe move forward.

Lol, the hell? That's a completely different scenario. We're talking about Scotland leaving the UK. So yes, it would suddenly stop being part of the UK. That's the whole point.

I said Scotland leaving the UK would still be part of the EU. Of course they'd stop being part of the UK.

The rUK would have been the successor state and yes, indy Scotland would have been a third-country with respect to the EU. The Commission's letter made this clear, they'd have to reapply.

The Commission letter isn't a legal ruling, it would take a judgement from the ECJ to actually determine Scotland's status in the EU but it's more than likely they'd rule that Scotland would still be part of the EU in the event of leaving the UK. Please refer to the US State analogy.

Would it have been fast-tracked? I dunno. Probably, as that would be pragmatic. But they would have to reapply as a new state.

If the ECJ ruled they were still part of the EU Scotland would simply need to be given a seat at the Council, Commission and some extra MEP's in the Parliament.

As for EU law "ceasing to exist", indy Scotland would of course be free to keep enforcing that law within their territory. That doesn't make them a member of the EU though.

Again debatable.

 

[Oriel]

I'm from Ireland and I think there will be huge consequences for us if the UK leave the EU. The UK is by an absolute mile our biggest trading partner, we have an open border with the UK, so I'm certainly hoping they don't leave the EU.

We trade more with the US and EU than UK so it wouldn't be that much of an issue, especially if the Brits, as expected, go into the EEA. And we have the CTA so the common movement between the two countries will remain whatever happens.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I said Scotland leaving the UK would still be part of the EU. Of course they'd stop being part of the UK.

The Commission letter isn't a legal ruling, it would take a judgement from the ECJ to actually determine Scotland's status in the EU but it's more than likely they'd rule that Scotland would still be part of the EU in the event of leaving the UK. Please refer to the US State analogy.

If the ECJ ruled they were still part of the EU Scotland would simply need to be given a seat at the Council, Commission and some extra MEP's in the Parliament.

Again debatable.

Uh huh. Judgement from the ECJ? "Simply give" them a seat on the Council, Commission and some extra MEPs? I'm done with this.

 

[iceatcs]

Leave EU, then join EuRussiAsia.

Few more steps, then New World Order.

 

[Oriel]

Uh huh. Judgement from the ECJ? "Simply give" them a seat on the Council, Commission and some extra MEPs? I'm done with this.

When West Virginia seceded from Virginia it didn't suddenly stop being part of the United State, did it? It's the same principle with the EU. This isn't like the the UN, OECD, IMF or any other international organisation, the EU is a proto-federal entity with much of the trappings of statehood so you cannot just say for sure that Scotland would be outside the EU if it left the UK. No judge or court has made a ruling on this and anyone claiming for sure that they know Scotland would have to reapply is just spoofing.