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[McHuj]

As awesome as Polaris is I really doubt its in PS4.5. There will be a power jump but nothing that big not to mention thats a total different architecture to program for.

If Nintendo are pushing things though I could see Polaris being in the NX

I think Polaris is probably the only way they could achieve a significant upgrade to qualify as a PS4.5. Sure you get better performance per watt going to a smaller process, but why not utilize an architecture already built and optimized for that process.

Assuming a PS4.5 is real, there are two options I see:

1. Shrink existing PS4 SOC and increase clocks on GPU and CPU. This is possible, but will require an update to faster GDDR5 or GDDR5x. Simply increasing clocks may starve the higher performing CPU and GPU.

2. Update the GPU IP with more efficient architecture designed for 14nm that performs better at same memory BW (and or clocks). This would certainly offer much better performance.

I'm not really sure anything other than option 2 makes sense in that with option 1 would probably only offer only 20-30% perf gains. Not enough to really matter.

 

[Kathian]

the misreporting just continues ... amazing.


the 4k media supporting PS4 would not surprise me if it was debuted April 4th to tie in with this..

http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/29/11325628/sony-ultra-4k-streaming-service-launch-april-4

You think its launching...Next Monday...?

 

[El_Chino]

the misreporting just continues ... amazing.


the 4k media supporting PS4 would not surprise me if it was debuted April 4th to tie in with this..

http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/29/11325628/sony-ultra-4k-streaming-service-launch-april-4

No.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

If Nintendo are pushing things though I could see Polaris being in the NX

https://youtu.be/tgbkN9vb__8?t=45

 

[IrishNinja]

ive seen this before, sony...think i'll hold off for now
also no way im trading up & losing PT!

 

[jeffram]

ive seen this before, sony...think i'll hold off for now
also no way im trading up & losing PT!

Then you should know it's not the same thing.

 

[DISSESHOWEDO]

ive seen this before, sony...think i'll hold off for now
also no way im trading up & losing PT!

Same here, i won't loose the chance to droll over my limited MGS PS4! Well if they allow me to just to switch the hardware inside and keep the shell of the limited, i'll upgrade but at a later date, since I'm not spending over $800 on both the new PS4 and PSVR in 2016!!!

 

[The_Lump]

I'm sorry, you are wrong. The PC is perhaps the single most fragmented platform that exists.

The load times you refer to are an example of fragmentation, as is any discrepancy in the user-experience between different hardware or software platforms.

For more information, I highly recommend you read this short article.

I don't know how I can make it any more simple for you. If you have one single piece of software running on two different systems, and the user experience is different in any way, that is fragmentation. Sometimes fragmentation is not an issue, but a lot of times it is (Such as in Hyrule Warriors) and that is why people should be concerned about the ramifications of having games consoles that whilst sharing an operating system, differ in hardware specifications.

...But this isn't what the vast majority of people mean by fragmenting a userbase.

An example of fragmenting a userbase as most people on this forum tend to mean, would be requiring a certain piece of hardware to play a game. In this scenario you are literally splitting up your potential userbase by saying those with that piece of hardware can play and those without it cannot. Ergo: Fragments of an larger install base are created.

So if the potential userbase is not being divided, then you aren't fragmenting your userbase in the traditional sense.

A good example is new 3DS:
Hyrule Warriors is playable on both systems, so the userbase for that game is the entire 3DS range of hardware.

SNES VC games are only playable on new 3DS, so the userbase for those games is limited to new 3DS owners. They fragment the 3DS family.

 

[Davide]

The only issue I see with this for Sony is that as a customer if PS4K and PSVR are out at the same time I'd probably only buy PS4K.

 

[Hayvic]

Hmmm, I wonder who of the two will be the first to completely open up the architecture for other companies to purchase manufacturing rights . Imagine the Samsung Gamebox®, compatible with the Playstation EcoSystem™. Want something cheaper? How about Huawei Gamemaster™ running Xbox UNIVERSE® games.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

...But this isn't what the vast majority of people mean by fragmenting a userbase.

An example of fragmenting a userbase as most people on this forum tend to mean, would be requiring a certain piece of hardware to play a game. In this scenario you are literally splitting up your potential userbase by saying those with that piece of hardware can play and those without it cannot. Ergo: Fragments of an larger install base are created.

So if the potential userbase is not being divided, then you aren't fragmenting your userbase in the traditional sense.

Good post.

Of course thats what "fragmenting the userbase" actually means, but it's just easier not to understand the actual phrase and post pictures of failed Sega add-ons instead.

 

[IrishNinja]

Then you should know it's not the same thing.

you're right; 32X was like $150 & i didn't lose any games in the upgrade

 

[sun-drop]

You think its launching...Next Monday...?

why not ..e3 should be all about PSVR .. why dilute the spotlight.

the 'upgrade' is going to be 100% about supporting 4k media formats ..so why wouldn't it make sence to debut it along side yr new 4k media streaming service?

 

[jstripes]

Hmmm, I wonder who of the two will be the first to completely open up the architecture for other companies to purchase manufacturing rights . Imagine the Samsung Gamebox®, compatible with the Playstation EcoSystem™. Want something cheaper? How about Huawei Gamemaster™ running Xbox UNIVERSE® games.

That's what 3DO tried to do, and what Xbox was originally supposed to be.

Third party manufacturers don't get a cut of the software licensing royalties. You know, the part that actually makes it profitable to manufacture a console for the first couple of years. So it's not that appealing for them.

Just a minor detail there.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

That's what 3DO tried to do, and what Xbox was originally supposed to be.

Third party manufacturers don't get a cut of the software licensing royalties. You know, the part that actually makes it profitable to manufacture a console for the first couple of years.

Just a minor detail there.

So why would game devs be discussing it at GDC and Sony have hardware ready?

Edit: And according to Patrick Klepek, this hardware has a code name....

 

[todahawk]

I still don't believe this will be anything other than a 4k scaler and built in VR capabilities.

Same, plus Sony is launching their 4k streaming service on April 4th... Sony TVs only via an app atm. With PSVR around the corner the tie-in with that makes sense, but not iterative hardware supporting higher resolution, even if it's on the same disc. I don't know why Sony would risk the confusion. But yet here we are trying to figure all of this out. Gotta be official news soon.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

...But this isn't what the vast majority of people mean by fragmenting a userbase.

Well... they're wrong.

Anyway, onto what you said though. You are partially correct. Fragmentation also extends to the inability to even start or have access to particular applications based on your hardware, but that is not the exclusive definition and should not ever be used as such.

Like I have said several times before, it is any difference that occurs by running the same piece of software in different environments. The frame rate issues in Hyrule Warriors Legends are a prime example of fragmentation in a console "ecosystem", and should serve as a warning to the dangers that having multiple hardware revisions can bring.

Why? Because Nintendo hasn't used any (old) 3DS footage in any of their promotional material. It would be incredibly easy for a consumer to think that the experience they see in the promos is what they're going to get on their (old) system. And considering that now (in the UK at least) it can be very difficult to return games once purchased, I feel that it's borderline misleading.

And believe me, these issues will occur if a revised PS4 is released into the market too.

Of course thats what "fragmenting the userbase" actually means, but it's just easier not to understand the actual phrase and post pictures of failed Sega add-ons instead.

[/s] ?

 

[StereoVsn]

It will be interesting if Sony does go Polaris route with GDDR5X. That would bring improvement in COU, GPU and memory bandwidth and GDDR5X is same or more efficient vs GDDR5.

Question is when would Polaris be available. We do know Micron already started testing GDDR5X with customers.

 

[Dahaka]

Even though I want that thing like right now I still favor HBM2.

 

[Marty Chinn]

ive seen this before, sony...think i'll hold off for now
also no way im trading up & losing PT!

This is a terrible comparison and isn't anything like what's going on here. For starters, 32X games were not playable on the Genesis.

...But this isn't what the vast majority of people mean by fragmenting a userbase.

An example of fragmenting a userbase as most people on this forum tend to mean, would be requiring a certain piece of hardware to play a game. In this scenario you are literally splitting up your potential userbase by saying those with that piece of hardware can play and those without it cannot. Ergo: Fragments of an larger install base are created.

So if the potential userbase is not being divided, then you aren't fragmenting your userbase in the traditional sense.

A good example is new 3DS:
Hyrule Warriors is playable on both systems, so the userbase for that game is the entire 3DS range of hardware.

SNES VC games are only playable on new 3DS, so the userbase for those games is limited to new 3DS owners. They fragment the 3DS family.

I'm one of the people vocalizing fragmentation and what you're describing is not my concern because from all accounts, both will play the same games. That doesn't mean that the fragmentation you describe is the only bad possible way of having fragmentation. I'm more concerned about the expectations of the end users, the impact of what becomes the focal target platform, market confusion, market expectation, and other issues that can be attributed to fragmentation. Fragmentation introduces potential problems. To what extent, we don't know yet since we are severely lacking details on the scope of fragmentation and the details that will cause that fragmentation. Fragmentation on its own can be minor and a non issue, or it could be major and definitely be an issue. We just don't know where we are on that scale. But make no mistake, this is fragmentation and there's definitely negative things that can come with it.

 

[bitbydeath]

ive seen this before, sony...think i'll hold off for now
also no way im trading up & losing PT!

You won't lose PT if you either
A. Switch out the HDD;
B. Perform a backup and restore.

 

[The_Lump]

Well... they're wrong.

Yeah then we fundamentally disagree here. I'm going with the commonly accepted definition of the term "fragmented userbase" for the reasons I've stated, and for which you've provided no counter point.

If we use your logic, then the ability to install a larger/faster HDD is also fragmenting a userbase since it can improve load times.

That's clearly not what anybody rationally means when they use this phrase.

Using the literal definition of the word does not mean that is the correct interpretation of a phrase within an established demographic.

 

[Zoetis]

no polaris, why do some even think this ?

 

[IrishNinja]

This is a terrible comparison and isn't anything like what's going on here. For starters, 32X games were not playable on the Genesis.

all like 20 of them, no - but it was a holdover, and a poor idea, both of which i find relevant here

You won't lose PT if you either
A. Switch out the HDD;
B. Perform a backup and restore.

oh? still not looking to do this, but i'm glad to know this all the same, thanks!

 

[Marty Chinn]

all like 20 of them, no - but it was a holdover, and a poor idea, both of which i find relevant here

I think there are definitely potential problems here, but the 32X had a whole host of other issues with it. It was an optional upgrade that required the Genesis, and had unique games on it that only worked with the 32X. Nobody bought it because it lacked games and it lacked games because nobody was buying it. I agree it was a bad idea and a stop gap, but it had a ton of problems that aren't going to be issues here if this really comes out. The fact that it will play all PS4 games by default is a huge difference.

 

[Hayvic]

That's what 3DO tried to do, and what Xbox was originally supposed to be.

Third party manufacturers don't get a cut of the software licensing royalties. You know, the part that actually makes it profitable to manufacture a console for the first couple of years. So it's not that appealing for them.

Just a minor detail there.

Well it might have not been worth it at the start of the generation bur right now I'm sure some chinese manufacturers could make a "ps4 compatible" device cheap enough to make it worth it.

 

[GOOCHY]

It won't be gaming at 4K.

I can see it being something that supports 4K streaming and 4K discs.

Gaming at 4K would set the price way, way too high. Do the math and find out how much it costs to build a PC that can run games properly at 4K. It ain't cheap.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

Using the literal definition of the word does not mean that is the correct interpretation of a phrase within an established demographic.

You have to be kidding me.... I'm wrong because I'm using the correct definition of the word?

And in response to your HDD analogy, yes. That would fragment the userbase. It may not be the biggest issue in the world, but it has been something that has come into play with MMO and multiplayer games with persistent for a very long time. When moving through zones or areas with loading screens, those who can load faster are at an advantage over the others. Be it for loot / monster choice / positioning etc. It all comes into play.

 

[MrBS]

I'm in complete denial about this GAF. No matter how many 'confirmations' come through until I hear it from Sony I can not believe they would offer a new model that runs games with better performance. Sure a 4K model to output 4K media I get that but a mid generation hardware upgrade? Say it isn't so!

 

[Hellshy.]

no polaris, why do some even think this ?

B/c without an insider explaining what it will be people start to speculate. If not polaris than what??

 

[Apt101]

I've had my PS4 for almost three years, I'm game to buy a stronger one. Suck it poor people.

 

[jimbobsmells]

I'm in complete denial about this GAF. No matter how many 'confirmations' come through until I hear it from Sony I can not believe they would offer a new model that runs games with better performance. Sure a 4K model to output 4K media I get that but a mid generation hardware upgrade? Say it isn't so!

I wouldn't call it being in denial. I'd call it sensible to wait for concrete sources instead of hearsay and conjecture.

 

[HyperCubed4]

They made a handheld for the same reason. Look at how that turned out.

 

[Marty Chinn]

You have to be kidding me.... I'm wrong because I'm using the correct definition of the word?

And in response to your HDD analogy, yes. That would fragment the userbase. It may not be the biggest issue in the world, but it has been something that has come into play with MMO and multiplayer games with persistent for a very long time. When moving through zones or areas with loading screens, those who can load faster are at an advantage over the others. Be it for loot / monster choice / positioning etc. It all comes into play.

Yep. Fragmentation in itself isn't necessarily a super bad thing that is going to kill it. It's the question of what are the consequences of the fragmentation and its impact which is what comes in to play.

Nintendo DS and Nintendo DSi were fragmented but inconsequential. Nintendo 3DS and New Nintendo 3DS is mostly inconsequential but a few points stand out. PC gaming has a much bigger degree on how fragmentation affects it. All three of these have fragmentation but have a varying degree of consequence.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I'm in complete denial about this GAF. No matter how many 'confirmations' come through until I hear it from Sony I can not believe they would offer a new model that runs games with better performance. Sure a 4K model to output 4K media I get that but a mid generation hardware upgrade? Say it isn't so!

Still waiting for the industry insiders to update and clarify......

 

[bitbydeath]

no polaris, why do some even think this ?

Do you know for sure if it is included or was it not mentioned?

 

[James93]

I think this is the VR/4k box. Nothing more. As it sits there is no way a ps4 is going to run games at 4k.
I foresee a 599.99 price point though.

 

[Zoetis]

B/c without an insider explaining what it will be people start to speculate. If not polaris than what??

fair enough, but this is a homeconsole and polaris is not cheap.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

Yep. Fragmentation in itself isn't necessarily a super bad thing that is going to kill it. It's the question of what are the consequences of the fragmentation and its impact which is what comes in to play.

Nintendo DS and Nintendo DSi were fragmented but inconsequential. Nintendo 3DS and New Nintendo 3DS is mostly inconsequential but a few points stand out. PC gaming has a much bigger degree on how fragmentation affects it. All three of these have fragmentation but have a varying degree of consequence.

Very well said. I take umbrage with the issue, however, as since the advent of mobile devices fragmentation has been becoming more and more of a big issue. The emphasis on "Developing and showcasing for our top-model device" has meant that the experiences on older devices suffer greatly.

If a PS4.5 were a single "boost" before a totally different platform launches another 3-4 years down the line (PS5), I wouldn't worry too much, as supporting one extra configuration isn't too much work on the development side of things. However, if this becomes the start of a much more frequent iteration cycle, then we will definitely end up seeing parallels with the user experiences that are present on mobile devices, and that is going to be terrible.

 

[IrishNinja]

I think there are definitely potential problems here, but the 32X had a whole host of other issues with it. It was an optional upgrade that required the Genesis, and had unique games on it that only worked with the 32X. Nobody bought it because it lacked games and it lacked games because nobody was buying it. I agree it was a bad idea and a stop gap, but it had a ton of problems that aren't going to be issues here if this really comes out. The fact that it will play all PS4 games by default is a huge difference.

you're right, it's a stretch...i just like using classic sega stuff where i can, haha. really, the fact that they're not (yet) looking to offer 4.5 exclusive software is the big separator here...though if i'm understanding it right & VR won't work with the standard system we all currently have, that's troubling.

 

[ZOONAMI]

no polaris, why do some even think this ?

Because Polaris 11 would make a lot of sense. And if we are talking about 4k gaming, the 2x perf/watt Polaris provides makes a lot of sense. Polaris is one of the few options out there that makes any sense, that or you'd have to increase the die space dramatically on the launch Apu and add shaders and CUs, which also isn't cheap. Polaris 11 based apu would arguably be just as cheap, as amd touted it as a budget chip with dramatically improved performance over a gtx 950. I can't imagine it's product cost would be close to $100, and throwing in evolved jaguar cpu cores isn't going to add much to the cost.

That said, if it doesn't have Polaris, most likely this is a very minor performance improvement by unlocking the original Apu due to better yields and higher clocks, which simply isn't enough for 4k gaming outside of 2.5d sidescrollers.

 

[Caayn]

B/c without an insider explaining what it will be people start to speculate. If not polaris than what??

How about this.

1.) Yields have gone up, better yields mean a higher chance at a fully functional chip. The current PS4 GPU for example has two compute units(good for 128 additional stream processors.) turned-off to increase initial yields. Now tha the yields are better, the fully functioning chips are produced at a sufficient rate for mass-production of a more powerful end-product. End result: PS4.5 with a fully enabled GPU and perhaps a few Mhz extra to boot.

1.1.) Or Sony simply opts to increase clock speeds, as a result of better yields, of the apu instead of enabling the extra compute units.

2.) Current APU will receive a die shrink, which will allow for higher clocks but yields are hard because of the new node it's produced on. End result: PS4.5 with a smaller baked apu, which allows for higher clocks.

Polaris is a new chip, new tech and a new node. It's probably way too expensive. I've said it before and I'll say it again, most of the whish-lists in these PS4.5 threads are nice but highly unlikely.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Very well said. I take umbrage with the issue, however, as since the advent of mobile devices fragmentation has been becoming more and more of a big issue. The emphasis on "Developing and showcasing for our top-model device" has meant that the experiences on older devices suffer greatly.

If a PS4.5 were a single "boost" before a totally different platform launches another 3-4 years down the line (PS5), I wouldn't worry too much, as supporting one extra configuration isn't too much work on the development side of things. However, if this becomes the start of a much more frequent iteration cycle, then we will definitely end up seeing parallels with the user experiences that are present on mobile devices, and that is going to be terrible.

Yep, that's how I'm leaning towards. Big questions such as how many iterations are we going to get per generation and is there still such thing as a generation can greatly change what the consequences are.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

fair enough, but this is a homeconsole and polaris is not cheap.

Don't think anyone has claimed it is cheap? Point is the reports and yourself, IIRC, have said 4K gaming. This can't be the case if it is a die shrunk current APU. Even if clock speeds are raised it wouldn't be enough for me to be classed as an upgrade and definitely not enough for any sort of 4K gaming.

I'm a bit surprised at your confusion now considering your earlier posts.

 

[Drifters]

I'm convinced thus will replace the current SKU and the games will scale based on some wizardry that Sony has worked on.

 

[El_Chino]

no polaris, why do some even think this ?

I knew it wouldn't have it.

This why I'm I'm sticking to my 2.3-2.5 tflop prediction.

 

[Hellshy.]

fair enough, but this is a homeconsole and polaris is not cheap.

I am not one that believes it is polaris.,though I would like to know how it will support 4k and what would be stopping a dev from adding other performance gains?

 

[HandsomeCharles]

Yep, that's how I'm leaning towards. Big questions such as how many iterations are we going to get per generation and is there still such thing as a generation can greatly change what the consequences are.

I sincerely hope that "Generations" do remain. I find it very frustrating (as a consumer who can't afford to upgrade all that frequently) when software is advertised as being "compatible" with my device, but upon installing and executing I find that it's barely functional. I'd much rather just be told that It's not supported.

It's especially annoying when that software previously worked just fine, but was severely crippled by an update (that on some occasions I was forced to install to continue using the service.)

These are all problems that console gaming could start to face.

 

[PdotMichael]

Well, I guess Sony is hitting the problem that the console doesn't really get cheaper to produce anymore.
BD-drive, HD disk, all the connectors with license fees - they don't get cheaper. I wouldn't even surprised if there is even a negative production cost developement for producing and buying the electronic at some point.

So Sony needs to find ways to justify the $300-400 pricetag.

 

[Hermii]

Because WSJ didn't use a 3D printer for their article.

NX threads usually gets closed because they aren't discussing the original article and devolve into general discussion. That's exactly what happened to this thread so where the hell are you modbot?

I know it's a silly thing to be bitter about.