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[Eradicate]

So, recently in a few threads, discussion has started revolving around cartridges as game media making a comeback. Sure, they are still used in systems such as the 3DS, but they have been absent from consoles for quite some time. I’m not aware of any threads focused on this topic (at least recently), but those conversations were always enlightening in so many ways (from both sides of the matter) that a focused thread on the topic seems pertinent.

First, no good thread of this type can begin without this winning primer on logistics by Terrell. (Again, the discussions around this topic have been varied and interesting!)

To lead discussion, I wanted to do a breakdown of pros and cons that have come up. ozfunghi provided one particularly thorough list, but I delved back through many of the posts and discussions to flesh out a list to provide as a starting point for people to reference.

Pros:

• No disc drive – Cheaper console (no cost of drive, cheaper stocking/shipping, cheaper throughout supply chain); smaller size console; more reliable (no moving parts, less defects requiring repair); runs cooler (better ventilation from less cramped internals, passive cooling); quieter; energy savings
  
• Smaller packaging for media – Cheaper (stocking, shipping, packaging); less shelf space
  
• Speed – Faster loading times
  
• Possibility to share game library between devices (e.g. handheld and home console) – Could lead to larger audience overall as well
  
• Faster switching of games – Easier to leave cartridges exposed, out of box, compared to discs
  
• No need for game installs
  
• Less internal storage need – Also helps to lessen the cost of the hardware
  
• Multiple cartridge slots possible – Possibility of multiple cartridges plugged in simultaneously (games, accessories) for speed and optional functions
  
• Storage space – Cartridges have a wide range of storage options; can be much larger than current disc media
  
• Potential to install patches/DLC directly into a cartridge – Could be useful in digital transition due to ability to install a game on your own cartridge for posterity, collection, etc.
  
• Piracy – Potentially harder to pirate cartridge-based games

Cons:

• Cost – More expensive than existing disc media (manufacturing more involved, more pieces to put together, costs scale based on amount of storage space needed); special ROM types could cost even more (though could potentially lower cost somewhat depending on arrangements and what was requested); console developer may have to eat cost to keep competitive pricing for third parties
  
• Lack of DVD/BR playback
  
• HDD still required – OS functions; storage place for downloading large game patches/DLC; possibility for allowing external drives, though extra cost to consumer
  
• Third parties – Could be turned off (cost; “different” media conceptually and compared to competitors)
  
• Physical media in general– Increasing prevalence of digital sales; capability of no interest to those favoring “all digital” approach (though neither would an optical drive either)
  
• Speed – While most disc-based games are installed for speed, the cartridge selling point of speed must be fast enough to not need to install the game in the first place requiring special ROM types, especially with larger games
  
• Piracy – Con for all physical media and only requires the right hardware to pirate

Certainly this isn’t every strength and weakness to the idea, and I’ll gladly update the list above as the conversation progresses. It’s also organized fairly loosely, so don’t take stock in there being more pros than cons right now; I really am interested in all sides of this. But, to put my opinion out there, I really think that cartridges present an attractive option to disc-based media. They’ve never entirely left public usage, just finding a home in different devices through things like flash drives and SD cards. It is still familiar enough of a concept that I really think it could prove popular and advantageous.

Who would have thought that we could potentially go full circle and return to this? What do you all think about the feasibility of consoles returning to cartridges?

 

[yyr]

As far as I can tell, we're in the midst of a shift to digital. Consumers are slowly, but surely, learning to accept digital purchases. They are also turning more to streaming for their media, which involves no ownership at all. Companies are happy with this.

This fact reduces the feasibility of a return to cartridges to near-zero.

 

[Laevateinn]

With respect to piracy, blu-rays and other disc media are easy to copy as well. I don't need a special EPROM reader or anything like that to copy a blu-ray, although I've never tried and they could be doing something unstandard for all I know to the discs. Couldn't a cartridge based system just use the same kind of encryption based anti-piracy measures that disc based games use?

As far as I can tell, we're in the midst of a shift to digital. Consumers are slowly, but surely, learning to accept digital purchases. They are also turning more to streaming for their media, which involves no ownership at all. Companies are happy with this.

This fact reduces the feasibility of a return to cartridges to near-zero.

When consoles shift to removing physicality as an option, I will happily end my interest in consoles that existed after the fall of Sega. I think cartridges are a middle way for this option because it potentially provides the speed that modern disc technologies can't but it still let's us have things we can hold.

 

[Majukun]

As far as I can tell, we're in the midst of a shift to digital. Consumers are slowly, but surely, learning to accept digital purchases. They are also turning more to streaming for their media, which involves no ownership at all. Companies are happy with this.

This fact reduces the feasibility of a return to cartridges to near-zero.

they are?
last time i checked an entire marketing campaign of a major console was completely destroyed by trying to going all digital while the campaign of its main adversary based their entire campaign on NOT having that feature

 

[TheExodu5]

How much would a 32-64GB ROM chip with acceptable read speeds cost? Do they even make large/fast ROMs?

I don't think they do. In that case we'd be looking at 32GB flash storage, with a controller to prevent unauthorized writes. I don't think that would be very cheap. I don't think the benefits outweigh the prohibitive costs.

 

[DannyDanger]

they are?
last time i checked an entire marketing campaign of a major console was completely destroyed by trying to going all digital while the campaign of its main adversary based their entire campaign on NOT having that feature

The option of digital purchases is definetely more accepted today. Every single earnings call from every single big name publisher has digital sales on the rise.

 

[Sectorseven]

Isn't a 4GB Vita cart like several dollars?

vs. the 50 cents or whatever for a 50GB Blu-ray.

 

[astrogamer]

How much would a 32-64GB ROM chip with acceptable read speeds cost? Do they even make large/fast ROMs?

ROM chips are generally faster than discs now. They are just much more expensive at higher file sizes. Can't recall the specific numbers but I think it's like $1 for a blu-ray versus $3-4 for ROM (and similar kinds of memory) of similar size.

 

[yyr]

they are?
last time i checked an entire marketing campaign of a major console was completely destroyed by trying to going all digital while the campaign of its main adversary based their entire campaign on NOT having that feature

That is true, but now, I think we've all seen several posts here at NeoGAF from both X1 and PS4 owners claiming that they've gone all-digital because it's convenient. You probably own some digital games yourself.

I think that plan was 5-10 years too early.

 

[DownGrader]

With respect to piracy, blu-rays and other disc media are easy to copy as well. I don't need a special EPROM reader or anything like that to copy a blu-ray, although I've never tried and they could be doing something unstandard for all I know to the discs. Couldn't a cartridge based system just use the same kind of encryption based anti-piracy measures that disc based games use?

If there is a way - any way - to transfer data from console to a computer, it will be hacked, no matter the media. Dreamcast GD-ROMs were dumped via LAN adapter, PSP UMDs were dumped via Memory Sticks...

 

[GuyKazama]

The majority of gamers today are digital only. They have no problem downloading apps to their phone. Only Nintendo can keep cartridges alive, and after they crunch the numbers and see the $$$, they'll probably drop them too.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

The majority of gamers today are digital only. They have no problem downloading apps to their phone. Only Nintendo can keep cartridges alive, and after they crunch the numbers and see the $$$, they'll probably drop them too.

I dunno about the majority. Not yet. Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

 

[Nitty_Grimes]

When consoles shift to removing physicality as an option, I will happily end my interest in consoles that existed after the fall of Sega.

Same here.

If it hasn't or doesn't get a retail shop release, I dont buy it.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

The majority of gamers today are digital only. They have no problem downloading apps to their phone. Only Nintendo can keep cartridges alive, and after they crunch the numbers and see the $$$, they'll probably drop them too.

The majority of console gamers are NOT digital only though, and we are talking about consoles. Also if we are talking about cartridges than you are right, Nintendo will be the only one to use them. However, they likelihood of Nintendo dropping physical media first is incredibly unlikely.

 

[KTO]

I dunno about the majority. Not yet. Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

yeah just don't totally ignore the mobile section of the pie and you'll have your number.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

yeah just don't ignore totally ignore the mobile section of the pie and you'll have your number.

Mobile is irrelevant to this discussion as this is a discussion about cartridges coming back to consoles. Nothing to do with mobile, and outside of mobile and PC digital numbers are much lower than retail

 

[yyr]

Same here.

If it hasn't or doesn't get a retail shop release, I dont buy it.

So you've completely ignored 100% of the amazing indie games that have revolutionized the gaming industry over the last 5+ years, simply because just about 100% of them are not on physical discs?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

yeah just don't ignore totally ignore the mobile section of the pie and you'll have your number.

Mobile games never had the choice between physical media and digital software in the first place, that's irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

The majority of gamers today are digital only.

The majority? I highly doubt that, unless you're counting phones, which is a completely different type of ecosystem (smaller applications have shorter download times, cheaper or free overall price, etc.)

There was a post in one of the Nintendo patent threads talking about how the fact that cartridges are smaller makes them so much less expensive to ship that they could actually offset the cost advantages of optical media. It had really detailed numbers so it was pretty convincing.

 

[Flintty]

I've been hoping for a return to cartridges since mid last gen. I'd love it. As games get bigger and more complex it has to be inevitable, surely. Not everyone has the connection to go full digital and sooner or later games will be too big for discs. Unless yet another format is created, obviously.

 

[Nitty_Grimes]

So you've completely ignored 100% of the amazing indie games that have revolutionized the gaming industry over the last 5+ years, simply because just about 100% of them are not on physical discs?

Sorry no, I should have made it more clear in my post, not the indie stuff, I treat that separately.

On about your Dark Souls and your Fallouts and your Halos etc.

 

[jooey]

they are?
last time i checked an entire marketing campaign of a major console was completely destroyed by trying to going all digital while the campaign of its main adversary based their entire campaign on NOT having that feature

Is this about XBO vs. PS4? If so, talk about misremembering. That was about DRM lockouts on physical media; digital wasn't even part of the point. XBO was always going to use discs.

and using "their entire campaign" for both isn't very accurate either, when it was basically two days' worth of hand-wringing months before the systems came out.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

last time i checked an entire marketing campaign of a major console was completely destroyed by trying to going all digital while the campaign of its main adversary based their entire campaign on NOT having that feature

There were some iffy parts obviously, but I really think that the 180 turn made the Xbox One much more weaker product in the end, so nobody really one. Microsoft were ahead of the curve, made few side steps and fucked their product almost beyond recovery

 

[Eradicate]

The majority? I highly doubt that, unless you're counting phones, which is a completely different type of ecosystem (smaller applications have shorter download times, cheaper or free overall price, etc.)

There was a post in one of the Nintendo patent threads talking about how the fact that cartridges are smaller makes them so much less expensive to ship that they could actually offset the cost advantages of optical media. It had really detailed numbers so it was pretty convincing.

I put the link the OP, but it was a text link so somewhat easy to miss:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=192728798&postcount=557

Very interesting post!

 

[Cess007]

That is true, but now, I think we've all seen several posts here at NeoGAF from both X1 and PS4 owners claiming that they've gone all-digital because it's convenient.

The majority of gamers today are digital only..

Yeah.... no.

 

[Andodalf]

nope. Digital is the future.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

yeah just don't totally ignore the mobile section of the pie and you'll have your number.

This is a thread about consoles.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I don't see physical media suddenly disappearing yet. While digital is more accepted, people still like having the options. Not to mention there are still lot's of markets where game size is far to big over what general internet speeds are in the area. Blurays and DVDs haven't suddenly disappeared despite the big shift to digital in that realm as well. If anything expect maybe different SKUs. I could see the future having disc SKUs be slightly more to entice people to go all digital however.

 

[Laevateinn]

If there is a way - any way - to transfer data from console to a computer, it will be hacked, no matter the media. Dreamcast GD-ROMs were dumped via LAN adapter, PSP UMDs were dumped via Memory Sticks...

Right. The barrier to entry to make a fake N64 cartridge vs a Saturn CD is much greater. Operate under the assumption that piracy will exist and do what you can to make it too annoying to normal people. A cart-based system will require special hardware to dump and flash images. Combine that with some sort of encryption method that is harder to duplicate and piracy might as well not exist.

 

[KTO]

This is a thread about consoles.

The post he was responding to never mentioned that. And if console gaming is going to have a future, they are going to need some of those non-console gamers to pick one up.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

The post he was responding to never mentioned that. And if console gaming is going to have a future, they are going to need some of those non-console gamers to pick one up.

He is in a thread about consoles referencing Nintendo in his post and talking about gamers. It requires a very loose definition of the word to call mobile users "gamers".

 

[EoinOL]

One disadvantage of cartridges that appears to have been largely forgotten is that production of a cartridge is not as simple or as fast as production of a disc, and the greater expense of cartridges means that it's much more important to get your production numbers right, and that it's tempting for publishers to order a smaller amount of cartridges to reduce the chance of low sales resulting in them sitting on expensive piles of unsold carts. That can result in delays and shortages.

I'd also really like to see an estimate (ideally sourced) for the cost and read speed of a 32GB+ card/cart manufactured in large production runs. Discussion about advantages and disadvantages is difficult without that information.

 

[Philippo]

Is it actually possible that the home NX console woll have cartridges instead of discs?

 

[MrNelson]

The majority of gamers today are digital only. They have no problem downloading apps to their phone. Only Nintendo can keep cartridges alive, and after they crunch the numbers and see the $$$, they'll probably drop them too.

There are still portions if the US that only have access to dial-up, and there are plenty of ISPs that implement data caps, not just in the US. Phones have access to mobile data, which is also capped (or heavily throttled after a point) for a majority of people.

Until that is fixed, a digital only home console will not happen.

 

[yyr]

Sorry no, I should have made it more clear in my post, not the indie stuff, I treat that separately.

On about your Dark Souls and your Fallouts and your Halos etc.

Honestly, I usually buy that stuff physically also, simply because it gives me the option to resell later. But I've definitely made a few digital purchases over the last few years where I previously would have preferred physical copies. Just about everything on my Vita is digital, and Sony's account system allows me to re-download that stuff as needed. I just don't want to have piles of games cluttering my apartment any more...

Yeah.... no.

You may not have seen those posts, but they do exist and that is a fact. Don't make me start digging them up.

EDIT: OK, why not? This is just spending 2 minutes in Search, I could find more.

All digital for me at this point. It's just way too convenient.

I'm all digital this gen I only have 2 retail games.

Convenience, not having games cases taking up space are high factors for why I can't see myself going back.

Yeah. Same. I'm all digital this gen.

I used to, but now I'm all digital and just don't care.

All digital now, I don't do special edition physicals since it's just needless clutter after so many years of playing videogames. So no.

I'm all digital. I do I to myself. I'll get the kickback next month from Xbox rewards.

All digital here and loving it. I pick up what I want on day one and wait for sales on stuff I'm mildly interested in. Sales have been fairly good on both platforms and I haven't really regretted many purchases.

Only downside for me has been storage on PS4

 

[garyizraw]

If someone made a new cartridge system that was incredibly fast and cheap it would be awesome to have cartridges again in the household and in console decks

 

[Eradicate]

My thing with digital only is that, theoretically, it makes sense. Internet speeds are getting quicker and more people are getting access. Not every game is super large (especially indies), and you're able to buy a game immediately from your home, sometimes at a discount.

However, while internet speeds are increasing, so are many games in size. Many games are huge now and they are getting bigger. To me, at a precursory glance, they are increasing in size faster than internet speeds are increasing. This doesn't even relate to access, but internet access isn't everywhere, and just because internet may be there, there can be limitations based on data caps, speed, etc. anyways.

To me, until some of those handicaps are worked out, we've got to have some physical media still. I'd argue to always have it! I mean, cartridges are essentially little HDDs, and they are increasing in size quickly too, faster than disc-media (and again, faster than internet speeds). They just seem up to the challenge currently. That is, until some super holographic 3D orb disc comes along able to hold TBs of data for a cheap price!

Also, regarding large ROM size pricing, still haven't found anything yet. Still looking though!

 

[Neoxon]

Is it actually possible that the home NX console woll have cartridges instead of discs?

Maybe, but who knows at this point.

 

[Momentary]

Download your game to an SSD. Boom! Fast as hell cartridge with tons of games on your console.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Download your game to an SSD. Boom! Fast as hell cartridge with tons of games on your console.

This thread is in reference to games being sold at retail on cartridge.

 

[Neoxon]

As for digital-only, until crappy internet & data caps are a thing of the past, any console maker that goes digital-only will be crucified in a way that will impress even Jesus himself. The Xbox One is proof of this.

 

[thelatestmodel]

Yeah.... no.

Yeah. As of 2014 dude.

I can see the appeal, definitely, it would be like vinyl making a comeback. But like vinyl, it will only appeal to a niche market.

 

[Neoxon]

Yeah. As of 2014 dude.



I can see the appeal, definitely, it would be like vinyl making a comeback. But like vinyl, it will only appeal to a niche market.

But in the case of Nintendo, it would benefit their goal of making the console & handheld "like brothers" on a literal level.

 

[univbee]

The read speed issue is largely a solved problem if you look at the PS4, where game data is efficiently copied to a speedy hard drive to let people start playing as quickly as possible. A "proper" cartridge has too many downsides to it, much as I'd love for that to not be the case. I almost think we'd sooner see a return of disc caddies a la PSP before we saw a return to full-on cartridges.

 

[GuyKazama]

The majority of console gamers are NOT digital only though, and we are talking about consoles. Also if we are talking about cartridges than you are right, Nintendo will be the only one to use them. However, they likelihood of Nintendo dropping physical media first is incredibly unlikely.

Nintendo is moving into the mobile space. They're primarily Japanese, so they will likely follow the Japanese market (which is heavily invested in mobile phone games). You can't ignore mobile phone gaming when it comes to the future of consoles -- the fact that it is so successful is going to inform Nintendo and other console makers going forward.

One of the major factors of its success is how easily it is for consumers to download games on to their phone. These consumers, the same ones that may buy a console in the future, don't seem to care that their games are digital only.

 

[KTO]

He is in a thread about consoles referencing Nintendo in his post and talking about gamers. It requires a very loose definition of the word to call mobile users "gamers".

Gamers: people who play games

How do you define it?

 

[Cess007]

You may not have seen those posts, but they do exist and that is a fact. Don't make me start digging them up.

EDIT: OK, why not? This is just spending 2 minutes in Search, I could find more.

Yeah. As of 2014 dude.

I can see the appeal, definitely, it would be like vinyl making a comeback. But like vinyl, it will only appeal to a niche market.

Sorry, should have clarified. Yeah no... worldwide and outside Gaf.

I know that Gaf and US loves digital, but the console gaming landscape is not only the US (tho, it is the biggest market) I feel the majority of the consumers are still buying physical as it remains the best option for them (due low internet speeds, data-caps, limited ISPs) and will remain like that still for some years; at least, until internet services improve to acceptable levels worldwide.

 

[Neoxon]

Nintendo is moving into the mobile space. They're primarily Japanese, so they will likely follow the Japanese market (which is heavily invested in mobile phone games). You can't ignore mobile phone gaming when it comes to the future of consoles -- the fact that it is so successful is going to inform Nintendo and other console makers going forward.

One of the major factors of its success is how easily it is for consumers to download games on to their phone. These consumers, the same ones that may buy a console in the future, don't seem to care that their games are digital only.

But with mobile, internet is easily accessible from anywhere. Consoles are stationary, & dedicated handhelds would be expensive if they had 4G access. As a result, both (especially consoles) are victims to crappy internet & data caps. And until these issues are resolved worldwide, none of the Big 3 can go digital-only without suffering the Xbox One's fate.

 

[GuyKazama]

But with mobile, internet is easily accessible from anywhere. Consoles are stationary, & dedicated handhelds would be expensive if they had 4G access. As a result, both (especially consoles) are victims to crappy internet & data caps. And until these issues are resolved worldwide, none of the Big 3 can go digital-only without suffering the Xbox One's fate.

Yeah, but we're talking about cartridges here. Cartridges are expensive, so the only way a company will go back to them is out of necessity. The only need that I see is portability. Nintendo is likely the only future portable console manufacturer. So, I'm only looking at Nintendo to lead the way forward on this -- and based on the Japanese market, I see it going digital only fairly soon vs cartridges. For home consoles, optical media is still going to be around since it is cheap -- and data caps, etc.

 

[bomblord1]

Yeah. As of 2014 dude.



I can see the appeal, definitely, it would be like vinyl making a comeback. But like vinyl, it will only appeal to a niche market.

*Digital format sales include subscriptions, digital full games, digital add on content, mobile apps, and social network games

So we're comparing DLC, Subscriptions (PSN? and Xbox Live?), Full games, Phone Apps, and Facebook Game to physical game sales? Seems like they unfairly weighted one side.