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[Wowfunhappy]

Yeah. As of 2014 dude.



I can see the appeal, definitely, it would be like vinyl making a comeback. But like vinyl, it will only appeal to a niche market.

52% of games being bought via download ≠ 52% of GAMERS buying ALL of their games via download.

 

[Neoxon]

Yeah, but we're talking about cartridges here. Cartridges are expensive, so the only way a company will go back to them is out of necessity. The only need that I see is portability. Nintendo is likely the only future portable console manufacturer. So, I'm only looking at Nintendo to lead the way forward on this -- and based on the Japanese market, I see it going digital only fairly soon vs cartridges. For home consoles, optical media is still going to be around since it is cheap -- and data caps, etc.

One of our own made quite an informative post on the potential of a single NX cartridge rather than separate disc & cartridge SKUs. Nintendo would stand to save a decent bit of cash, not to mention maintaining good relationships with retailers.

 

[Philippo]

Maybe, but who knows at this point.

I meant tech-wise.
Maybe it's my fault, but i always associated modern cartridges to portable games, can we have 50-60gb games on them without paying 100$ a cart?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

*Digital format sales include subscriptions, digital full games, digital add on content, mobile apps, and social network games

So we're comparing DLC, Subscriptions (PSN? and Xbox Live?), Full games, Phone Apps, and Facebook Game to physical game sales? Seems like they unfairly weighted one side.

I was just about to post the same. That chart should really only be comparing digital and physical sales of software that's available on both mediums.

 

[GuyKazama]

One of our own made quite an informative post on the potential of a single NX cartridge rather than separate disc & cartridge SKUs. Nintendo would stand to save a decent bit of cash, not to mention maintaining good relationships with retailers.

If the NX is as powerful as rumors say, I'd be surprised if a 50+ GB cartridge format is financially feasible at all. Cost has to be at least $5 / card vs < $1 / disc. Maybe they make it digital only in Japan, and offer an add-on optical drive for other countries.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

they are?
last time i checked an entire marketing campaign of a major console was completely destroyed by trying to going all digital while the campaign of its main adversary based their entire campaign on NOT having that feature

The campaign was too early and too draconian in some ways. It's all about that Overton window thing. It was unacceptable for many consumers a few years back but as time moves on, opinions will slowly shift.

 

[georly]

I'm all for it, but I wonder if people will view cartridges as being old school or even 'kiddie'?

Another pro would be if both NX console and NX portable use the same games (somehow) and you can pop the cartridge out of your portable and into the console.

 

[UnrealEck]

Too expensive and more and more move to digital.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

It is 100% not feasible.

 

[LakeEarth]

Releasing a game physical is fairly costly, I don't see publishers jumping to a platform which increases the costs even more. I believe the Shovel Knight guys said they made more for each digital copy sold versus physical, even though physical copies were sold for almost twice the price.

 

[astrogamer]

Nintendo is moving into the mobile space. They're primarily Japanese, so they will likely follow the Japanese market (which is heavily invested in mobile phone games). You can't ignore mobile phone gaming when it comes to the future of consoles -- the fact that it is so successful is going to inform Nintendo and other console makers going forward.

One of the major factors of its success is how easily it is for consumers to download games on to their phone. These consumers, the same ones that may buy a console in the future, don't seem to care that their games are digital only.

Mobile games - mostly free and few exceed $1, almost all are never bigger than 1GB, average play time is only a few minutes, you can play whenever you want

Console games - mostly cost $50-60, with even most games on digital stores exceeding $5, only the smallest of games are less than 1GB with several retail games being over 20 GB on PS4/XB1, average playtime is closer to an hour, only able to be done at home

For handhelds, maybe you have a point but Console games have a completely different market that you aren't going to for mobile experiences mainly. At most a mobile game takes a couple minutes to download and if you don't like it, no cost to you. For console games, it'll take on the low end 5 minutes and big games take closer to an hour and if you don't like the game, you are generally stuck with a significant sunk cost (save for a refund if you get them to give you one). There's no way for consoles to get around this problem unless you stick with mobile ports which gets you an Ouya.

 

[georly]

Too expensive and more and more move to digital.

If more are moving to digital, that also means less need for a disc drive, too. Not sure how the 'digital' = no cartridges but yes disc drive.

Digital sales don't even factor into this discussion, to be honest, not sure why it's being brought up. It's strictly Disc vs Cartridge. The main disadvantage to cartridge is that each one costs more to manufacture than a single disc, but on every other front, it has a potential advantage, from potentially even making the console itself more reliable and cheaper/smaller.

 

[Aroll]

Reality is that cartridges are far more viable today than they were say, 10 years ago. They have become increasingly affordable and there are other areas where they help cut costs per unit. Of course, overall it's probably still cheaper to use discs (packaging and shipping included), but the numbers are probably a lot closer than most realize overall.

This isn't even about the shift to digital - in today's world a console is still going to need a decent HD or an option for external HDDS. Digital is too big of a deal to not have those options (one, or both).

But, it's interesting how we have come full circle back to not only catridges being a viable medium price wise, but honestly they are the superior method of gaming, given that they have the ability to run fast enough to not need to install games, allowing home consoles to still be plug and play and have a big differentiated from PC's.

Given that Nintendo has never supported DVD/CD/Blue Ray play back options (and they likely still don't plan for it), they are the ideal company to go back to cartridges on the whole. Only concern would be third parties but Nintendo can potentially offer an offsetter to eat the costs.

I like the idea if shifting in that direction overall as it's the superior console gaming experience. The way Xbox One and PS4 work today, it's both cheaper and almost as convenient to just build a smaller and cheaper TV gaming PC to play at 1080p.

Nintendo going back to catridgers for the increased advantage of speed and plug and play brings back the full viability of the home console market IMO.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

If more are moving to digital, that also means less need for a disc drive, too. Not sure how the 'digital' = no cartridges but yes disc drive.

Digital sales don't even factor into this discussion, to be honest, not sure why it's being brought up. It's strictly Disc vs Cartridge. The main disadvantage to cartridge is that each one costs more to manufacture than a single disc, but on every other front, it has a potential advantage, from potentially even making the console itself more reliable and cheaper/smaller.

But it costs more. That's pretty much the golden standard for "no this shit will not fly".its not feasible, it won't happen bar someone trying to gun for nostalgia.

 

[georly]

But it costs more. That's pretty much the golden standard for "no this shit will not fly".its not feasible, it won't happen bar someone trying to gun for nostalgia.

Did you read anything in the OP? While each cartridge would cost more than a disc, you reduce the cost on nearly everything else, including packaging and shipping/logistics. At worst it would be a minor increase per game, which nintendo could theoretically eat to entice 3rd party publishers. And the carts would be closer in size/shape to a 3DS or vita game, not like an NES game, which is what would be pandering to nostalgia.

Either way, my point is that digital sales/discussions shouldn't even be a part of this thread, because it's asking: Cartridge Vs Disc.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Did you read anything in the OP? While each cartridge would cost more than a disc, you reduce the cost on nearly everything else, including packaging and shipping/logistics. At worst it would be a minor increase per game, which nintendo could theoretically eat to entice 3rd party publishers. And the carts would be closer in size/shape to a 3DS or vita game, not like an NES game, which is what would be pandering to nostalgia.

No its not a minor increase. Say you're making a game and to print it on Blu Ray is one dollar, but a cartridge is three dollars. You can print one thousand discs for $1k or one thousand carts for $3k. That massively ramps up as you go into full production. Also for the console itself a Blu Ray drive would cost tops $10 dollars whereas researching and creating and implementing a cartridge drive would more.

 

[Kjell]

So, recently in a few threads, discussion has started revolving around cartridges as game media making a comeback. Sure, they are still used in systems such as the 3DS, but they have been absent from consoles for quite some time.

Except that in case of the 3DS the cartridge / media situation is more akin to ( for instance ) the Sega CD than the Sega Mega Drive. Games on the Sega Mega Drive run directly off the cartridge, whereas Sega CD games copy their program binary to Work RAM first ... which is exactly what 3DS games ( generally ) do as well.

 

[georly]

No its not a minor increase. Say you're making a game and to print it on Blu Ray is one dollar, but a cartridge is three dollars. You can print one thousand discs for $1k or one thousand carts for $3k. That massively ramps up as you go into full production. Also for the console itself a Blu Ray drive would cost tops $10 dollars whereas researching and creating and implementing a cartridge drive would more.

I mean, yes, it's more expensive to manufacture a cartridge, but this post (linked in the op) explains there's more to it than that. Also, nintendo already has and uses a cartridge reader for the 3DS, so to say it would cost a lot to research and implement is speculation. More than throwing in a blu-ray drive? Probably. But it may also lead to long-term savings if they can use their own proprietary format and not have to license the tech from sony.

I mean, I still don't think it's likely, but it'd be nice if people brought up more pros and cons in this thread than just saying 'lol digital sales tho' or contribute more than a simple dismissal.

 

[MacTag]

One disadvantage of cartridges that appears to have been largely forgotten is that production of a cartridge is not as simple or as fast as production of a disc, and the greater expense of cartridges means that it's much more important to get your production numbers right, and that it's tempting for publishers to order a smaller amount of cartridges to reduce the chance of low sales resulting in them sitting on expensive piles of unsold carts. That can result in delays and shortages.

It's been largely forgotten because modern writing techniques have solved most of those issues. This isn't like the the N64 era when you'd need weeks of lead time to manufacture mask ROMs, today using EEPROM, XtraROM or other solutions you can write data post manufacturing with days notice. It's not really much different from pressing a disc in terms of lead time.

 

[Eradicate]

So, I found a few sources as far as bulk costs for memory.

That said, I'm an idiot and not sure what I'm even looking at or what I should be looking for in the first place! Hopefully the more tech-inclined here can help out in figuring out costs! Here are the links starting at the primary landing pages to search for memory:

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/memory
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/memory-cards-modules
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/Search.aspx?dsNav=Ro:0,Nea:True,N:716

Now, I realize a large company could likely get a better deal behind the scenes, but this is the best I can find where you can look at unit costs in fairly large numbers.

Again, though, I'm just at a loss of where to begin searching here! Is EEPROM better than plain PROM? Are they sure they mean bit? What's class speed got to do with it? I would be so grateful for Tech-GAF's amazing expertise in figuring this all out to cover my ignorance! Be a hero!

 

[dark10x]

That is true, but now, I think we've all seen several posts here at NeoGAF from both X1 and PS4 owners claiming that they've gone all-digital because it's convenient. You probably own some digital games yourself.

I think that plan was 5-10 years too early.

Then you have others, such as myself, that remain fiercely dedicated to physical games.

 

[Rödskägg]

Yeah. As of 2014 dude.



I can see the appeal, definitely, it would be like vinyl making a comeback. But like vinyl, it will only appeal to a niche market.

Vinyl is technologically inferior while carts are generally superior to existing media.

 

[Eradicate]

With respect to piracy, blu-rays and other disc media are easy to copy as well. I don't need a special EPROM reader or anything like that to copy a blu-ray, although I've never tried and they could be doing something unstandard for all I know to the discs. Couldn't a cartridge based system just use the same kind of encryption based anti-piracy measures that disc based games use?

If there is a way - any way - to transfer data from console to a computer, it will be hacked, no matter the media. Dreamcast GD-ROMs were dumped via LAN adapter, PSP UMDs were dumped via Memory Sticks...

Right. The barrier to entry to make a fake N64 cartridge vs a Saturn CD is much greater. Operate under the assumption that piracy will exist and do what you can to make it too annoying to normal people. A cart-based system will require special hardware to dump and flash images. Combine that with some sort of encryption method that is harder to duplicate and piracy might as well not exist.

I see you all were already talking about this, but piracy issues do seem to favor cartridges. People will hack anything and get it if they want, but to me, it seems anything involving a disc at the moment, as long as you can read the disc, is easier to pirate than a cartridge where you have to have special hardware or start breaking it apart. There's DRM and all that, but putting a physical barrier does present more of a challenge.

Though, who knows, I'm not that crafty. It seems if someone was willing to bust open a system and wire the card reader to send the information into their computer that that alone may do it. Not to get into a ROM conversation, but geez, people are able to pirate brand new games, no matter the system. I'm not sure that all-digital is entirely an answer to the problem either, though. It does get rid of funny knockoff cartridges and game boxes in overseas markets though.

 

[cartman414]

It's been largely forgotten because modern writing techniques have solved most of those issues. This isn't like the the N64 era when you'd need weeks of lead time to manufacture mask ROMs, today using EEPROM, XtraROM or other solutions you can write data post manufacturing with days notice. It's not really much different from pressing a disc in terms of lead time.

Still leaves the crucial cost issue.

 

[bomblord1]

So, I found a few sources as far as bulk costs for memory.

That said, I'm an idiot and not sure what I'm even looking at or what I should be looking for in the first place! Hopefully the more tech-inclined here can help out in figuring out costs! Here are the links starting at the primary landing pages to search for memory:

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/memory
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/memory-cards-modules
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/Search.aspx?dsNav=Ro:0,Nea:True,N:716

Now, I realize a large company could likely get a better deal behind the scenes, but this is the best I can find where you can look at unit costs in fairly large numbers.

Again, though, I'm just at a loss of where to begin searching here! Is EEPROM better than plain PROM? Are they sure they mean bit? What's class speed got to do with it? I would be so grateful for Tech-GAF's amazing expertise in figuring this all out to cover my ignorance! Be a hero!

Might be wrong but this doesn't seem to be the same thing Nintendo would be using. The largest capacity eeprom I could find was only a few Mb and the largest capacity flash was only 4GB

 

[yyr]

Vinyl is technologically inferior while carts are generally superior to existing media.

You're stepping on thin ice, saying things like that...analog and digital each have their advantages!

 

[DownGrader]

But it may also lead to long-term savings if they can use their own proprietary format and not have to license the tech from sony.

Isn't Nintendo successfully evading optical media licensing since the days they started to use optical media? They use DVD and Blu-ray technology, but modify it in a way it becomes its own tech so they don't have to pay royalties. (And, of course, they disable media playback and general DVD/Blu-ray support on their systems too.)

 

[bomblord1]

Isn't Nintendo successfully evading optical media licensing since the days they started to use optical media? They use DVD and Blu-ray technology, but modify it in a way it becomes its own tech so they don't have to pay royalties. (And, of course, they disable media playback and general DVD/Blu-ray support on their systems too.)

Gamecube Mini discs

Wii DVD's were read backwards (and inside out)

WiiU discs are a proprietary blu-ray alterantive developed by Panasonic

 

[Spiral Insanity]

It is just too expensive to produce in large quantities. With the rise of digital, there is no need to reinvent physical media.

 

[Rödskägg]

You're stepping on thin ice, saying things like that...analog and digital each have their advantages!

Sure, an audiophile may think vinyl is superior but the general public consider it obsolete, whether that's true or not. This, I believe, does not apply to carts vs. discs.

 

[cartman414]

Sure, an audiophile may think vinyl is superior but the general public consider it obsolete, whether that's true or not. This, I believe, does not apply to carts vs. discs.

You applied an objective to a subjective.

 

[redcrayon]

Sorry, should have clarified. Yeah no... worldwide and outside Gaf.

I know that Gaf and US loves digital, but the console gaming landscape is not only the US (tho, it is the biggest market) I feel the majority of the consumers are still buying physical as it remains the best option for them (due low internet speeds, data-caps, limited ISPs) and will remain like that still for some years; at least, until internet services improve to acceptable levels worldwide.

Not only that, but as far as I can see, buying digital copies isn't any more expensive than buying physical in the US. Here in the UK, however, buying digital is vastly more expensive than buying physical due to the digital stores not wanting to undercut the high street, and so online retailers like Amazon sell games for £10-£15 cheaper than PSN or the Nintendo eshop.

Digital isn't going to push much beyond its current fraction of the market here until those prices sort themselves out, at the moment buying digital console games is ludicrously expensive here.

 

[Rödskägg]

You applied an objective to a subjective.

I think CD's are objectively superior in context of technology. Longer playtime, dynamic range, easier to skip tracks, smaller dimensions etc.

With carts you have almost the opposite situation with them being superior to discs.

 

[MacTag]

Still leaves the crucial cost issue.

Yes but costs have also come down significantly from the $20+ per unit in the N64 days. We're talking probably a couple dollars difference versus disc at most.

Might be wrong but this doesn't seem to be the same thing Nintendo would be using. The largest capacity eeprom I could find was only a few Mb and the largest capacity flash was only 4GB

3DS cards use Macronix XtraROM with a small amount of EEPROM for saves. I don't believe Macronix offers XtraROM to consumers directly either.

 

[bomblord1]

Yes but costs have also come down significantly from the $20+ per unit in the N64 days. We're talking probably a couple dollars difference versus disc at most.


3DS cards use Macronix XtraROM with a small amount of EEPROM for saves. I don't believe Macronix offers XtraROM to consumers directly either.

I've read they could cost as much as $55 per cart for dev's on the n64. At least according to a guy on Reddit who claimed to be a dev

Edit: Looks like I misread that he was quoting $55 as the cost of a game to the consumer

 

[Lasthope106]

Whenever companies go ahead and try to "re-invent the wheel" I can't help but laugh. Why would go and do you own proprietary thing when the market has spoken and said that CDs/DVDs/BRs are the way to go. Cheap to manufacture, proven technology, plenty of space, lightweight. Honestly some of the stuff you listed OP as Pro's I just don't feel they are very good.

Less shelf space - Most racks at stores are universal, and made for full size disks.
Speed - As far as I know most games already cache a lot of their data to the console. Not gaining much here.
Faster switching of games - non issue. Then you have to take into account that the metal connectors in the cartridges are metal and rust, get dirty, etc.

I'm not going to respond to all your points, but basically my argument is that it's a lot of hassle for not much gain. As a consumer, I don't want more expensive media. And like many others have mentioned, the market is moving to digital media. I'm already there with Steam. I want my games to be decoupled from the hardware, and be able to run on any system I own. If console manufacturers don't want to be open then fine, but at least let me play your old games in newer systems free of charge.

 

[Eradicate]

I want to reply to others soon, as well as update the OP with things that have been brought up. Just running out of time today! Thanks everyone for the discussion!

But, since it was mentioned a few times and I don't know how to go about it, if people want to focus on Nintendo doing it, it's fine for a mod to change the thread title if they wish. Admittedly they may be the only ones to do it, but I was just leaving it open initially since anyone could really! Their choice!

Not only that, but as far as I can see, buying digital copies isn't any more expensive than buying physical in the US. Here in the UK, however, buying digital is vastly more expensive than buying physical due to the digital stores not wanting to undercut the high street, and so online retailers like Amazon sell games for £10-£15 cheaper than PSN or the Nintendo eshop.

Digital isn't going to push much beyond its current fraction of the market here until those prices sort themselves out, at the moment buying digital console games is ludicrously expensive here.

That's really interesting. I had no idea that digital was that much higher in the UK. Is that some sort of governmental thing (like, is this similar for other digital vs. physical things), or just how it's viewed over there compared to retail? Here in the US it's all about undercutting each other it seems, haha!

 

[Unknown One]

Xbone and PS4 has games played from the HDD. CD is just for DRM. I don't get this obsession with cartridges.

PS4 does it flawlessly.

 

[Zee-Row]

Gamers club doesn't work with digital games so no for me.

 

[potatohead]

Can someone explain to me what is the advantage of using cartridge-based media over simply going all digital for a console?

Besides the "not downloading games" thing. But again, why wouldn't you just use the more ubiquitous and cheaper media in optical discs?

All the consoles have hard drives these days too. That alone erases the need for cartridge based games media.

 

[redcrayon]

I want to reply to others soon, as well as update the OP with things that have been brought up. Just running out of time today! Thanks everyone for the discussion!

But, since it was mentioned a few times and I don't know how to go about it, if people want to focus on Nintendo doing it, it's fine for a mod to change the thread title if they wish. Admittedly they may be the only ones to do it, but I was just leaving it open initially since anyone could really! Their choice!



That's really interesting. I had no idea that digital was that much higher in the UK. Is that some sort of governmental thing (like, is this similar for other digital vs. physical things), or just how it's viewed over there compared to retail? Here in the US it's all about undercutting each other it seems, haha!

It's not a government incentive or anything, just the way that things have worked out. An expensive RRP is set that the digital stores and the high street shops (that distribute their console hardware) stick to, but the online retailers and supermarkets undercut it and are in constant competition with each other- Amazon's prices seem to fluctuate on a daily basis and make digital prices for non-sale items on the PSN store/eshop laughable in comparison. Being a small country with reasonable postal/distribution systems helps. Even when buying physical copies on the high street, the prices of AAA games will be slashed within a matter of weeks, long before any digital copy is discounted. Sony is constantly selling digital copies for ~£60 (around $80) when you can find physical copies for a little over half that barely weeks after launch.

 

[family_guy]

It would be a waste of time in this digital age.

 

[Orayn]

One thing that is covered in the OP but still missed by a lot of people in these discussions: Xbox One and PS4 games don't run off of discs. They're ALWAYS installed to the hard drive and running from there, even if there's a streaming/background installation process involved.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Digital age is still not a majority enough to get rid of physical media for the next few years, considering digital revenue usually only accounts for less than 25% of any of the big three's overall profit. It's only near extinct on the PC front as far as I'm concerned.

 

[xevis]

Can someone explain to me what is the advantage of using cartridge-based media over simply going all digital for a console?

I have the game. It's mine. Forever. I can play it on my console or any other console. I don't need to install anything or have internet access. I can pass it to a friend. I can put it on a shelf when I'm done. When the publisher decides they no longer want to sell the game, I still have it on my shelf.

 

[MCN]

I have the game. It's mine. Forever. I can play it on my console or any other console. I can pass it to a friend. I can put it on a shelf when I'm done. When the publisher decides they no longer want to sell the game, I still have it on my shelf.

Plus you can shop around and find the cheapest price for a game, instead of being beholden to one digital store and the publisher's RRP.

 

[Harmen]

To be honest, I only buy games I want to play at the given time nowadays. I do buy physical and have a "rule" that I won't buy digital games above 20 euros, but that is more related to keep my consumer behaviour in check to prevent spending too much money (which is easy in the online age). I think that will only become more and more normal over the years (see the increasing digital only sections on platforms) and don't think companies will invest in physical media. Furthermore, they already ditched booklets to cut costs so I doubt they want to increase costs with cartridges.

 

[darscot]

What year is it?
I love that piracy is listed as pro, have you followed Nintendo handhelds for the last almost 30 years.

 

[Woo-Fu]

I have the game. It's mine. Forever. I can play it on my console or any other console. I can pass it to a friend. I can put it on a shelf when I'm done. When the publisher decides they no longer want to sell the game, I still have it on my shelf.

So that is probably the number one reason you'll never see similar tech from a platform holder. Which is really what it comes down to, value for the platform holders.

Well, I could see a cartridge-based stub. Plug this dongle into your console which will authorize it to download a particular game.

 

[jdstorm]

Can someone explain to me what is the advantage of using cartridge-based media over simply going all digital for a console?

Besides the "not downloading games" thing. But again, why wouldn't you just use the more ubiquitous and cheaper media in optical discs?

All the consoles have hard drives these days too. That alone erases the need for cartridge based games media.

The "Not Downloading games thing" is a pretty large factor for many people. Anywhere you have monthly data caps or slow internet.

If it can take 3 days to fully download a large modern AAA game. Why would you want to wait that long and use a large portion of your data when you could go and pick up a physical copy. You'd be surprised how small data caps can be in rural areas in certain parts of the world