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Digital Foundry: Spec Analysis: Xbox Project Scorpio

Man some really want so hard that Sony wins this dick contest of flops...

Sry but i doubt that they havent locked down the specs etc yet. This is just wishful thinking.


If what Shinobi heard is true, Sony will show Neo at Paris Game week. Release? probably Early 2017 or even this year.
 
As the DF article states Sony would have to either scrap Neo's existing processor completely or they could try what MS did and overclock the processor but still no 6TF.

They should probably just cancel and wait it out till next year if they are really concerned. But as of right now the neo isn't going to hit near the scorpio's specs. Dev kits are already out there according to rumors. It looks like this thing specs are set. Sony doesn't really need to worry however.
 

Leyasu

Banned
So maybe MS was trying to force Sony's hand, make them regroup and push the Neo out later to get a more powerful box cheaper in late 2017. 9-12 month headstart for Sony is exactly what MS doesnt need right now.

Im not sure Sony fell for it though. Honestly its probably just MS jumping in to show everyone how forward-thinking and innovative they are, even though they are once again lttp. They might not be first to do it, but dammit theyre going to tell everyone it was their idea.

I dont think that anyone apart from the obvious people will give two fucks how microsoft position their message. It seems that they are going to let the console do the talking, and you can be sure that this aint going to release with any rushed games..

They are going to push this out of the door with a couple of big hitters and some serious eye candy... Expect a few 1st party games already launched to get some nice bumps as well.
 

TrackZ

Member
You can sell pc parts so that's no argument. And how will they do "backwards compatibility" (which isn't that because it's the same upgraded system, not a new generation of systems). Will games run like shit on old Scorpios/Neos? Will you be able to adjust graphics to your console revision? Like there are three setting for One, S, Scorpio?

It's fine that you like it, I, personally, just see it as a closed PC system without all the benefits of a PC.

It's easier to sell one box and replace it entirely with another box. On a PC, you can generally do that with a GPU, yes, but often not the rest of the system. CPU/mobo/RAM upgrades often have to go together. Granted, those pieces are not updated as often as a GPU though.

MS is saying that there won't be generations any more. Your games will consistently move forward with you into new hardware, like PC games do. The games themselves should run appropriate to the system they are being run on. That should happen automatically with no need for tweaking.

It is more or less a closed PC system. PC provides other benefits. This closed PC though has its own benefits in areas of cost, simplicity, plug-and-play utility, integration, other living room features (UHD streaming and Blu-ray), and so on. For those benefits, you accept the system. That's a fine trade-off for many. Others want the full freedom that a real PC provides as well as the higher power potential.
 

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
As the DF article states Sony would have to either scrap Neo's existing processor completely or they could try what MS did and overclock the processor but still no 6TF.

They should probably just cancel and wait it out till next year if they are really concerned. But as of right now the neo isn't going to hit near the scorpio's specs. Dev kits are already out there according to rumors. It looks like this thing specs are set. Sony doesn't really need to worry however.

If it releases this year or early next year they have to start production soon. There is no way they will change the specs. Xbox S is rumoured to have been in production since February for an August launch. 1 million units a month sounds about right.
 

Nephtes

Member
I can't imagine Microsoft targeting $499 again.
That was disastrous last time. Which would explain Scorpio not landing this year. Wait a year for component prices to come down...And sell at a profit if possible or near cost.

$399 has a nice ring to it... and as Major Nelson said about Sony unveiling a console without an actual console... it worked for them...
 

Gestault

Member
This is something that's almost impossible to quanify, so consider the rationale as much as the speciific claim:

I think an insignificant part of Microsoft's market challenges with the XB1 were due to the hardware's tech specs. Launching $100 more expensive than the competition during a window of self-inflicted bad press and confusing product expectations were their issues. Limited global support is an issue. Plans assuming they could rely on the Kinect audience that bolstered the second half of the 360's life to fill out XB1 sales was their issue.

I can't imagine simply offering a more powerful system as the solution (in the immediate sense) to their market challenges. I say this as someone engaged by their current offerings, and interested in theory in either an Xbox S or Scorpio. I think they'll have a tricky balancing act with how to promote Scorpio at launch, depending on where they need to price it.
 

geordiemp

Member
If it releases this year or early next year they have to start production soon. There is no way they will change the specs. Xbox S is rumoured to have been in production since February for an August launch. 1 million units a month sounds about right.

Why, they dont have to make Ps4 numbers every month, Neo is enthusiast, maybe 30 % of Ps4 numbers at the most, unless sony is going for 399 and expects most buyers to go for the Neo.
 

Upinsmoke

Member
Can't believe people think This Scorpio console is going to be priced similarly to the xbox one haha and if it is, well....you get what you pay for in life.

This whole talk about Microsoft using its deep pockets to take a huge loss on every console sold is is blind reassurance over the buzzwords they've used. The most powerful console ever must be expensive, except Microsoft are somehow gonna sell it relatively cheap because they're just so great.

I guess that's the reason they give away surface pro's for next to nothing, they don't even need the money as long as they get that market shared. Same for Windows phone too.

Microsoft is a company which has to make money, not lose money, absolutely crazy talk.

And if it costs 400 dollars you'll get a product worth 400 dollars and the components and design worth just that, no more or less
 

Futurematic

Member
They should probably just cancel and wait it out till next year if they are really concerned. But as of right now the neo isn't going to hit near the scorpio's specs. Dev kits are already out there according to rumors. It looks like this thing specs are set. Sony doesn't really need to worry however.

Microsoft is Osbourning their platform and giving Sony 6-12 months of a headstart, Sony Neo is no Sega Dreamcast and MS Scorpio is no Sony PS2 that gambit won't work. I think Sony will pull the trigger on cheaper and sooner. This feels like a repeat of the PS2 era contest with everybody in the same roles (and so many different things, to be sure).
 

Fisty

Member
Why, they dont have to make Ps4 numbers every month, Neo is enthusiast, maybe 30 % of Ps4 numbers at the most, unless sony is going for 399 and expects most buyers to go for the Neo.

Sony said they wouldnt be making hardware they take a loss on again, but I dont know if that would apply here, like youre getting at. If Neo can play all PS4 games, they have a LOT more room to make up the hardware loss on software gains at this point in the gen than 2013. Tons of games out there to offset that hardware loss. Will be interesting to see Sony's next step, hopefully they go all out.
 

geordiemp

Member
Microsoft is Osbourning their platform and giving Sony 6-12 months of a headstart, Sony Neo is no Sega Dreamcast and MS Scorpio is no Sony PS2 that gambit won't work. I think Sony will pull the trigger on cheaper and sooner. This feels like a repeat of the PS2 era contest with everybody in the same roles (and so many different things, to be sure).

Ps2 era many consumers were much less well informed than they are today with social media, and sites like digital foundry.
If Neo goes lower cost and neo modes dont offer solid 60 FPS on games then some enthusiasts will migrate to Scorpio for third party stuff imo.

Sony said they wouldnt be making hardware they take a loss on again,

Remember we have rumours of different specs and pricing for Neo in this thread and the discussion is which would they go for and do Sony have TIME anyway - I would expect them all to break even at least.

Your on a totally different topic my friend - I was answering the guy posting about production starting soon for Neo, I was implying Neo maybe goes for 30 % of Ps4 sales so the ramp up is not as big as the console launches. Ps4 will still be the volume seller if Neo is > 499, if Neo is 399 (AND lower spec) then who knows.
 
Microsoft is Osbourning their platform and giving Sony 6-12 months of a headstart, Sony Neo is no Sega Dreamcast and MS Scorpio is no Sony PS2 that gambit won't work. I think Sony will pull the trigger on cheaper and sooner. This feels like a repeat of the PS2 era contest with everybody in the same roles (and so many different things, to be sure).
It is more like the ps2 era in terms of timetable and spec wars. But I wouldn't say Sony has a huge advantage like it did during the ps2 era. 3rd party support was in favor of Sony with GTA and Final fantasy and metal gear solid. They will have a healthy head start but the gap won't get that big. The systems are relatively even in terms of 3rd parties. There are odd eggs like tomb raider and sf5 but those aren't shakers. It's really about perception which MS needs to change.
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
Microsoft is Osbourning their platform and giving Sony 6-12 months of a headstart, Sony Neo is no Sega Dreamcast and MS Scorpio is no Sony PS2 that gambit won't work. I think Sony will pull the trigger on cheaper and sooner. This feels like a repeat of the PS2 era contest with everybody in the same roles (and so many different things, to be sure).

If the NEO is running the Jaguar it will be the dreamcast. One will be CPU limited and with plenty of games running at 30fps like witcher 3 and fo4. The other will be 1080p/60 on basically every game with some games supporting 4k/30.
 

geordiemp

Member
>599 for Scorpio ... and >599 for Neo if they both go for this 5.5-6 TF spec. yeeeeeeeeesh

But that is sensible, Sony would keep the gamers they have that are happy to spend that - if Sony go low they could loose those deep pocket consumers to Scorpio.

Having a high enthusiast option would not impact OG ps4 sales, so Sony see the threat off.

Remember, Ps3 out of the gate still sold a fair number even before the price drop. Throw in power and it will sell. I would buy 2 Neo day 1 if its specs are good.
 
Man the console wars are starting to get really interesting. I wonder how Sony's going to respond to this, and where the NX will fit in specwise with everything else.
 

Tristax

Neo Member
I think an insignificant part of Microsoft's market challenges with the XB1 were due to the hardware's tech specs. Launching $100 more expensive than the competition during a window of self-inflicted bad press and confusing product expectations were their issues. Limited global support is an issue.

I've never understood the limited global support. Is there a known reason for why Microsoft doesn't target world-wide?
 

geordiemp

Member
Neo 5.5? Really?

If they clock same as 480 (up to 150 W), put in some fancy cooling, they could do 5.5 TF today if they really wanted to.

Seriously?
After the PS3 launch, you think Sony will go that high again?

Why not, Neo is not a console launch, its an Enthusiast model. Ps4 is $ 350 and will still be on the shelf.

Xbox elite controllers sell for £ 110 in the UK, even though regular controllers are £ 40. But some people are happy to spend almost 3 x more.
 
Life used to be simpler as a console gamer, Just play games, Couldnt care too much about TFlops and what have you, By the end of 2017 they'll be too many consoles to choose from on the shelf.
 
Fuck 4K. Let me play at 1080p with super graphics.

This is how I feel. I don't have much of an interest in 4k when I'm not buying a new TV any time soon and current consoles can't even hit 60fps/1080p reliably across all games.

Let's do that first. Give me 60fps rock solid 1080p. I'm good there.
 

krang

Member
If Scorpio is to OG Xbox what Neo/PS4 is to PS2 (in terms of power/sales/games), I'm absolutely fine with that.
 

geordiemp

Member
Coming from a legendary insider as well... Must be true then.

Leave him alone, play fair, he can speculate with the rest of us.

I don't have much of an interest in 4k . Give me 60fps rock solid 1080p. I'm good there.

Preech it, same here. I just want the better CPU just to make sure I get 60 FPS. 55 FPS does not cut it.

Jaguar and 60 FPS worries me, even if its 2.1 Ghz. Maybe sony could up the clock even more and put a hi tech cooler on if Zen is not possible ?
 
I think Microsoft is trying to stealth launch/start a new Gen early with these specs. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Phil say something along the lines of he wanted to get Devs working on Scorpio stuff as early as possible to take advantage of the extra power. Now sure the Scorpio will do everything an Xb1 can do and they can exsist together, however if MS start releasing games for Scorpio that don't run on XB1 at all then that's a slippery slope to be on.

For me I looked at these incremental console upgrades the same as the smartphone market. You upgrade your phone every few years with a new faster model but all your old apps still work and now they run even better.
 
I can't imagine Microsoft targeting $499 again.
That was disastrous last time. Which would explain Scorpio not landing this year. Wait a year for component prices to come down...And sell at a profit if possible or near cost.

$399 has a nice ring to it... and as Major Nelson said about Sony unveiling a console without an actual console... it worked for them...

I'll pay $499 happily as long as the value is there. The problem with the Xbox One was the value proposition of power vs. cost was weak. Ideally yes they can do the 6tf at $399 though.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
I think Microsoft is trying to stealth launch/start a new Gen early with these specs. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Phil say something along the lines of he wanted to get Devs working on Scorpio stuff as early as possible to take advantage of the extra power. Now sure the Scorpio will do everything an Xb1 can do and they can exsist together, however if MS start releasing games for Scorpio that don't run on XB1 at all then that's a slippery slope to be on.

For me I looked at these incremental console upgrades the same as the smartphone market. You upgrade your phone every few years with a new faster model but all your old apps still work and now they run even better.

I'm not sure it's stealth lol.

MS wants to move on from Xbox One. I don't blame them. This is the first time gamers have been intrigued by Microsoft hardware since what, the 360?
 

geordiemp

Member
I'll pay $499 happily as long as the value is there. The problem with the Xbox One was the value proposition of power vs. cost was weak. Ideally yes they can do the 6tf at $399 though.

I bet scorpio at those specs is more like $ 600, unless MS delve deep into their own pockets and subsidise like hell to buy us back. I would not say no...

And you'll get all that in 2020, patience, all good thing come to those that wait.

Or in 2017 for those willing to cough up, whether its Sony or MS. I for one want to game at 60 FPS before Xmas 2017 on console for third party games.
 
$599 lol. NO CHANCE.

Maybe if it was coming this year and with those specs. An extra year gives the new 14nm tech time to mature and makes a world of difference to pricing.

The Scorpion is nice but come Holiday 2017 it ain't gonna be anything special.
 

Averon

Member
The only way I think Sony and MS can get away with >$499 Scorpio/Neo are them making it clear that those are premium, enthusiast options, with the OG PS4 and XBO remaining as the focus for the PlayStation and Xbox brand.
 

thuway

Member
Coming from a legendary insider as well... Must be true then.

No I'm just saying if they went with that- that's how much it would likely cost to consumers. I think Plan B is stupid and expensive. I think most consumers would get the $399 box and call it a day.
 
I guess they could do it. GFLOPs are at about $.08 per according to the wiki but there's more to a console and performance than FLOPS. How many floating point operations are we doing?
 

ISee

Member
I don't see why the scorpio would be so expensive 18 months from now.

Because it could be based on AMDs vega gpu/apu design and that's most probably the reason why they schedule for a 'late' 2017 release because Vega is far away from being done. Earliest PC release is rumored to be in about one year. Microsoft seems to plan ahead this time around and using 2017 (high end laptop) pc tech and 12gb of ddr5 ram won't help bringing prices down.

Just listen to what DF has to say about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA3moBYaEYc
 

geordiemp

Member
No I'm just saying if they went with that- that's how much it would likely cost to consumers. I think Plan B is stupid and expensive. I think most consumers would get the $399 box and call it a day.

There is no point in an enthusiast model at $ 399 if core ps4 is $ 350 at the moment.

Especially if its gimped and cannot run games at 60 FPS in 1080.

What is the purpose of the 399 box ? To run 30 FPS games at 45 FPS ?
 

Nephtes

Member
Why not, Neo is not a console launch, its an Enthusiast model. Ps4 is $ 350 and will still be on the shelf.

Xbox elite controllers sell for £ 110 in the UK, even though regular controllers are £ 40. But some people are happy to spend almost 3 x more.

If Scorpio was releasing this year, I might agree with you. It isn't. They're going to have what...18ish months for component cost to drop.

I can't speak to the price of the Neo due to not having a release window for it... and even if it was in 3 months, I don't see the launching above $499.
 
No I'm just saying if they went with that- that's how much it would likely cost to consumers. I think Plan B is stupid and expensive. I think most consumers would get the $399 box and call it a day.

meh ill stick to my ps4 then, and build a pc, this upgrade is not worth it.
 

thuway

Member
meh ill stick to my ps4 then, and build a pc, this upgrade is not worth it.
At the end of the day I own a PC and a PS4, which is what I think is the best bet going forward. I'm gonna get a Neo because I really want to play games like Horizon, Last Guardian, Days Gone, God of War IV in the highest possbile quality. Also multiplayer- most of my friends own PS4's so there's that.

PC for everything else.
 

geordiemp

Member
At the end of the day I own a PC and a PS4, which is what I think is the best bet going forward. I'm gonna get a Neo because I really want to play games like Horizon, Last Guardian, Days Gone, God of War IV in the highest possbile quality. Also multiplayer- most of my friends own PS4's so there's that.

PC for everything else.

So thats why you want the cheaper option, For me I want to play all games on Console, so I want the better option to be more capable of 60 FPS gaming. Otherwise I go to the green side.
 

Shubit

Member
12 8Gbit chips of GDDR5 is going to cost less in 2017 than 16 4Gbit chips did for Sony in mid to late 2013. They can squeeze about 4 times the number of transistors onto the same die area at 14 nm compared to 28 nm and the new process shouldn't cost much more than 28 nm (GloFo) did in 2013 when it was new. Depending on the power requirements and heat output most of the added cost over current gen would come from a beefed up power delivery/regulation and cooling (think vapor chamber). Deduct the price of Kinect, add a 2TB hard drive as a baseline option and $499 seems like a shoe-in with comfortable profit margins.
 
At the end of the day I own a PC and a PS4, which is what I think is the best bet going forward. I'm gonna get a Neo because I really want to play games like Horizon, Last Guardian, Days Gone, God of War IV in the highest possbile quality. Also multiplayer- most of my friends own PS4's so there's that.

PC for everything else.

yea i see where you're coming from, but wouldn't you rather have all those game run 60fps for a 100$-149$ more, aside from that i wouldn't have to build a pc, and save tons of money because neo is not being held back by a shiity cpu for thirdparty games.
 
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