Like I said, do you want them to specifically state "Here's Pharah, she follows Islam and is a Muslim. or she found her mother was an Overwatch agent when she went to a mosque with her mother?" Because that guy was asking "Where are the Muslims?" If you don't take this at the face value then there is no way to determine if a fictional character like her is muslim because you know...she is fictional and doesn't exist outside of what's created.
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Overwatch's Laughably Convenient Ageism / Sexism
- Thread starter mindsale
- Start date
Like I said, do you want them to specifically state "Here's Pharah, she follows Islam and is a Muslim. or she found her mother was an Overwatch agent when she went to a mosque with her mother?" Because that guy was asking "Where are the Muslims?" If you don't take this at the face value then there is no way to determine if a fictional character like her is muslim because you know...she is fictional and doesn't exist outside of what's created.
Freaking wow, this is rude as hell.
There are Christian, Egyptian, Buddhist and Norse mythology inspired outfits.
HazySaiyan
Banned
Who says she's hiding it? Religion isn't brought up one way or the other by any of the characters (EDIT: other than Zenyatta I suppose), I don't really know what you want to have them do.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Thread title alone made me think of that Nina Williams BS
Interesting because I always felt that she was one of the older characters.
To me she always looked older than Tracer, Widowmaker, etc etc.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
are you confusing being Arab with being a muslim?
I think that's like Islamophobia 101 there mate
Firstly, Muhammad isn't a muslim God.
Secondly, Arab dress doesn't mean Muslim
I score this 4/5 on the Britain First scale of Islamic tolerance
ryanthelion123
Neo Member
Can someone ban me from this forum please. It is just too ridiculous now.
CyberPunked
Member
I mean, it doesn't matter does it. Like, why is this an issue?
TriAceJP
Member
NoblesseOblige
Banned
PM a mod and ask.
guggnichso
Banned
Ok, didn't read the bio, just played the game. One of my best buddies is called Levent, his parents are devout muslims, he himself is an agnostic.
Names and where you come from does not define your religion. Also, I think religion is a very private matter, and I think in a fun shooter without any meaningful story, there simply CAN be no accurate representation of any religion at all. Thus, religion should stay out of such games. If you have a story focused game, such things can bring great diversity and interesting story angles, but come on. Does it really matter if you're Muslim or Jewish or Christian when you're shooting gorillas and cyber ninjas while pushing some weird cart?
Pilgrimzero
Member
Seriously. Bastion has no sex and speaks in beeps and boops.
Although he does have that wooden skin so he could there for be "sporting wood".
SlickShoes
Member
I think it's fair game to go after Overwatch for this. They have already done a good job so far but they can do better. They actually seem like a developer that wants to push some of these walls down so maybe if we raise and discuss the issue they will take it in to consideration and implement some new characters that vary again from what we are used to.
And Roadhog. Unless you love some flub of course.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Exactly
Ranmo
Member
I don't really see the big deal. It's a matter of time before there's more young guys in the game.
Excluding torb, the older males (76 & Reinhardt) have their facial features covered up. imo that's on par with a 35 year old female still appearing young. It's just a different way of masking it.
Torb looks older, sure. I think that just comes with the design of that type of character though, all Dwarves generally appear that way in fiction.
Ofc there are costumes but I'm just talking about defaults for the sake of conversation. Anything is up in the air with additional costumes.
Genji and Hanzo literally have "young" costumes.
Excluding torb, the older males (76 & Reinhardt) have their facial features covered up. imo that's on par with a 35 year old female still appearing young. It's just a different way of masking it.
Torb looks older, sure. I think that just comes with the design of that type of character though, all Dwarves generally appear that way in fiction.
Ofc there are costumes but I'm just talking about defaults for the sake of conversation. Anything is up in the air with additional costumes.
Genji and Hanzo literally have "young" costumes.
Actually, the halo and wings are not Christian representations of angels. If you're going by the bible. Seraphim and Cherubim were said to have wings (6 of them..) but not specifically angels, and none of them had halos.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
He doesn't have a sex, but you calling Bastion a 'he' indicates you follow him having a gender.
John Rabbit
Banned
this is why Bastion gets assigned a gender. people assume it's a "he".
Ban Puncher
Member
If you wanna play as the grandma from Animal Kingdom... you're out of luck.
Garrett Hawke
Member
It is a digital fantasy but unlike violence, social perspectives can bleed through from the game into the real world. There have multiple studies on it, I'll try and find some links in a moment.
It's not like there's a particularly high bar. And as others have pointed out, when devs ARE listening, being able to have that dialogue only makes things even better.
Scrub Mcgrubb
Member
Depends on your age and upbringing... let's just say younger generations have been influenced that fictional escapism entertainment must have equal representation of all races and creed as to not leave out anyone and possibly have them feel bad..... you know... even though the majority of the planet's population is below a poverty line to even know Overwatch exists....
I think it's a bummer that Overwatch has been receiving a lot of scrutiny on this subject, when it's quite [for a game with no character creator] the best attempt at having a balance of identifiable characters for all demographics. You can only launch a game with so many characters. So I am at a loss when you say that it's 'laughably convenient'. Creating some form of IP that will be consumed by tens of millions of people in a fashion that is massively inclusive for any imaginable demographic is an impossibly daunting task. Also, every character is iconic in their own right -- they are super heroes and super villains, after all... and the Blizzard clean cool cartoon aesthetic makes even the grizzliest of characters have a certain sheen to them.
I will say though that I think Roadhog was a missed opportunity. Definitely should have been a haggard 50 something year old woman with a voice like she's been smoking and cruising in and out of biker bars with her motorcycle (and loving every minute of it) since she was 13.
I will say though that I think Roadhog was a missed opportunity. Definitely should have been a haggard 50 something year old woman with a voice like she's been smoking and cruising in and out of biker bars with her motorcycle (and loving every minute of it) since she was 13.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
This seems like a ridiculous over-analysis of a video game. Does it truly take enjoyment out of the game that you cannot play as an elderly lady?
in the english language, if something doesnt have a defined gender, you generally refer to it with masculine pronouns. You can call the english language sexist for it, but that's just how it's worked for a long time. He is kind of a default.
To help with a bit of the confusion I'm reading, I've listed out the ages, gender, and nationalities of each of the characters, along with listing who were the original members of Overwatch.
Original Members:
Gabriel "Reaper" Reyes, Male, Age Unknown, Mexican-American
Jack "Soldier 76" Morrison, Male, Age Unknown, American
Ana Amari, Female, Hypothetically Deceased, Egyptian
Torbjörn Lindholm, Male, 57, Swedish
Reinhardt Wilhelm, Male, 61, German
New Members (Joined over the course of the following 30 years), also includes villains and other characters who aren't part of Overwatch:
Hana "D.Va" Song, 19, Female, South Korean
Jamison "Junkrat" Fawkes, Male, 25, Australian
Lúcio Correia dos Santos, Male, 26, Brazilian
Lena "Tracer" Oxton, Female, 26, British [Note: Was in a time vortex for "months", afterwards would disappear for "hours" and "days" at a time until Winston invented her chronal accelerator.]
Aleksandra "Zarya" Zaryanova, Female, 28, Russian
Satya "Symmetra" Vaswani, Female, 28, Indian
Mei-Ling Zhou, Female, 31, Chinese [Was in cryogenic stasis for 10+ years.]
Fareeha "Pharah" Amari, Female, 32, Egyptian
Amélie "Widowmaker" Lacroix, Female, 33, French [Had her heart rate slowed down, which is said to dampen her emotion and turn her skin blue. It doesn't explicitly mention slowed aging, but you can make your own judgement.]
Genji Shimada, Male, 35, Japanese
Jesse McCree, Male, 37, American
Angela "Mercy" Ziegler, Female, 37, Swiss
Hanzo Shimada, Male, 38, Japanese
Mako "Roadhog" Rutledge, Male, 48, Australian
Robots:
Bastion, Genderless, 30
Zenyatta, Male, 20, Nepalese
Gorillas:
Winston, Male, 29, Outer Space
I added this to the OP to help with some lore clarifications and also added a note for anyone just driving by to complain that we're talking about this to just avoid posting in the first place.
Original Members:
Gabriel "Reaper" Reyes, Male, Age Unknown, Mexican-American
Jack "Soldier 76" Morrison, Male, Age Unknown, American
Ana Amari, Female, Hypothetically Deceased, Egyptian
Torbjörn Lindholm, Male, 57, Swedish
Reinhardt Wilhelm, Male, 61, German
New Members (Joined over the course of the following 30 years), also includes villains and other characters who aren't part of Overwatch:
Hana "D.Va" Song, 19, Female, South Korean
Jamison "Junkrat" Fawkes, Male, 25, Australian
Lúcio Correia dos Santos, Male, 26, Brazilian
Lena "Tracer" Oxton, Female, 26, British [Note: Was in a time vortex for "months", afterwards would disappear for "hours" and "days" at a time until Winston invented her chronal accelerator.]
Aleksandra "Zarya" Zaryanova, Female, 28, Russian
Satya "Symmetra" Vaswani, Female, 28, Indian
Mei-Ling Zhou, Female, 31, Chinese [Was in cryogenic stasis for 10+ years.]
Fareeha "Pharah" Amari, Female, 32, Egyptian
Amélie "Widowmaker" Lacroix, Female, 33, French [Had her heart rate slowed down, which is said to dampen her emotion and turn her skin blue. It doesn't explicitly mention slowed aging, but you can make your own judgement.]
Genji Shimada, Male, 35, Japanese
Jesse McCree, Male, 37, American
Angela "Mercy" Ziegler, Female, 37, Swiss
Hanzo Shimada, Male, 38, Japanese
Mako "Roadhog" Rutledge, Male, 48, Australian
Robots:
Bastion, Genderless, 30
Zenyatta, Male, 20, Nepalese
Gorillas:
Winston, Male, 29, Outer Space
I added this to the OP to help with some lore clarifications and also added a note for anyone just driving by to complain that we're talking about this to just avoid posting in the first place.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah man and why are we even talking about E3 with the Syrian civil war going on?
It's just a comment, not necessarily a complaint.
And a valid one at that - I didn't even realise until I read the OP but he's totally right. It's rare to see older women in games (can't even think of a playable one but yet we've had Old Man Snake and many male protagonists skew much older).
OW does a good job with diversity but not all the way - not all of the men in the game are presented as attractive but all of the women definitely are. And that sort of implies that such attractiveness is only possible for the young. This isn't just an issue with games but most media in general (see the fact that women in films who played love interests in the 80s/90s are now almost exclusively playing maternal roles, yet their male counterparts can still play the romantic lead).
Garrett Hawke
Member
No, and I don't think anyone is saying that it does. They're saying that it would enhance their enjoyment if they could.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I don't call my car he, or a gun he, or a robot he. So I'm uncertain what you're on about.
Edit: In fact most people seem to default to she for their cars.
I had a great idea but no one in the Overwatch OT was receptive to it.
Anyways, not that I think OP doesn't have a point but Zarya is being a little unfairly ignored. I guess fan-art might imply otherwise but I thought Mei was supposed to be a chunky lady. Maybe some of the upcoming characters will add age diversity to the ladies.
If anything, those things are referred to as being female in English.
Anyways, not that I think OP doesn't have a point but Zarya is being a little unfairly ignored. I guess fan-art might imply otherwise but I thought Mei was supposed to be a chunky lady. Maybe some of the upcoming characters will add age diversity to the ladies.
If anything, those things are referred to as being female in English.
He said Christian representation not Biblical.
You know Christian... as in the earlier followers of Christ and the founders of the Christian Church (big C). Like all of those Christian cathedrals with their depictions of angels.
In your attempt to correct someone, you failed at reading comprehension
Spinosaurus
Member
To be fair, Zenyatta got a Muslim mythology inspired costume too. Djinn and Ifrit.
Blizzard basically made diversity: the game, the laughable thing is that they still get jumped on for not covering literally everything possible. They'll get around to it someday. And then people will make porn of that character.
Or, from another perspective: they made a comic book world and are following that aesthetic.
oh boy would you ever be surprised at the amount of, uh, fanart that Roadhog gets.
also your avatar being Jill is funny because Capcom just stopped putting her in RE when she got too old.
Or, from another perspective: they made a comic book world and are following that aesthetic.
oh boy would you ever be surprised at the amount of, uh, fanart that Roadhog gets.
also your avatar being Jill is funny because Capcom just stopped putting her in RE when she got too old.
QuantumSquid
Member
I'm not afraid of Muslims, that's ridiculous.
Short of games like Assassin's Creed, you're really not going to find a lot of characters who outright state they are Muslim. At the end of the day religious representation is about as bad as gender representation and racial representation in most games, so if you're asking for examples, the majority of them are going to be characters that could potentially be Muslim based on other factors but are not outright stated as such.
I'm not a religious person myself. I hardly know anything about Christianity, which is the religion that most of the people in my family celebrate. I really don't know the first thing about Islam, except that Ramadan is a thing because I saw the thread about it in the Off-Topic forum on this website.
I suppose in the future I should do some research not just on Islam but also on the other major religions so I have a better understanding of them, but at the moment I'm about as clueless about Islam as I am about every other religion.
Kor of Memory
Member
This seems so odd to be, as the game seems to be a world tour of characters from every end of the planet.
I might be wrong on some of these, but off the top of my head:
North America:
-New York (Soldier 76)
-New Mexico (Mcree)
-Mexico (Reaper)
Europe
-Britain (Tracer)
-Switzerland (Mercy)
-France (Widowmaker)
-Germany (Reinhart)
-Sweden (Torbjorn)
Asia
-Japan (Genji)
-China (Mei)
-Japan (Hanzo)
-India (Symmetra)
-Russia (Zarya)
-Korea (D.Va)
-Nepal (Zenyatta)
Australia
-??? (Junkrat)
-??? (Roadhog)
South America
-Brazil (Lucio)
Africa
-Egypt (Pharah)
Misc:
-The Moon (Winston)
-??? (Bastion)
It looks like Asia got the biggest chunk there, with Europe in second place. Australia is almost tied with North America, so I wouldn't say it's American specific. Unless you want to combine north and south america so they can add Lucio to the mix maybe?
Either way. I just feel like saying the game is American and Euro-centric is simply a false statement.
The Atticus
Member
Jesus.
Christ.
Have a nice life.
Christ.
Have a nice life.
John Rabbit
Banned
what? i don't refer to my coffee mug as a "he", and plenty of people, especially in science fiction works, refer to methods of conveyance (ships, cars, tanks) with feminine pronouns.
additionally, the problem you illustrate of "In the absence of an obvious gender, the male gender is assumed" is absolutely correct; and it's part of an issue that extends far beyond the scope of this thread topic.
Sleight of Jam
Banned
This isn't equal enough yet guys. There's no furries, deaf, blind or mute characters. Blizzard are also discriminating against less bulky A.I robots. We got bastion over here but he's representing the bulky bots, so we need some slimmer more diverse robots too. I think that would just about cut it.
We also need atleast one female animal, where's the equality guys? Get it together blizzard jheez man.
We also need atleast one female animal, where's the equality guys? Get it together blizzard jheez man.
The Omega Man
Member
There are 21 heroes so far, People from Spanish Speaking countries need more than a "Continent representation" that doesn't even speak Spanish, and "El Dorado" is NOT in South America either BTW.
Like I said Spanish is the second most spoken language in the world (population wise) and no hero so far comes from a Spanish Speaking country, none.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Exactly. I actually realized that and edited my response afterwards. I've only heard people call their cars in female pronouns if they assign it a gender.
Via Purifico
Banned
I'll take it a step further and say Tekken is the absolute worst when it comes to this.
Xiaoyu had a very mature appearance by Tekken 4 and was mainly looking for Jin as a concerned friend. And while there was implied feelings for him it wasn't outright known.
Then come Tekken 5 they regressed her hard by making her look younger and becoming a lovesick schoolgirl on anime parody levels.
Then you have the whole thing putting Nina in cryosleep just to avoid the timeskip of 20 years from Tekken 2 to 3.
Tekken goes out of their way to avoid older women.
What you do =/= what rules a language follows. I'm sure we can discuss the topic of men giving female names to their cars, planes etc if you like.