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[Waddle Dee]

I'm not too bothered by this, honestly. The final game still looks better than any other console game by a wide margin. It's not like The Last of Us, where Naughty Dog did lie about how good the AI would be all the way up to it's release date, and then continue to deny it was ever downgraded.

 

[gigantor21]

Well, this is awkward...

Part of me simply refuses to believe this. I simply can't process a game looking this good at native 1080p and 60fps on a $400 console.

Then I remember that they managed to pull The Last of Us off on the PS3, and Santa Monica made Ascension and GOW3 on the same.

Sony's first party devs are freaks. Seriously.

Looking back, I should've considered the fact that none of those games ran at a solid 60fps either. But I wanted to believe.

Needless to say, I was pretty disappointed by their slow backtracking from the initial 60fps goal and their eventual confirmation that it wasn't happening at all for single player. :/

 

[Mass_Pincup]

You might wanna read the first page.

And even the graphics are downgraded.

I just can't believe they didn't get burned for this. But I guess if certain someone lies its ok.

It wasn't a Ubisoft games so no need to complain about it.

The Witcher 3 got the same treated as UC4, "It still look good!', "Heh I'll just wait for a patch", "The game is so big anyway" "It's still playable" were the usual reaction I saw.

 

[lmbotiva]

If people still so saulty about this I can't imagine how people will react if the game gets patched for NEO and stays at 30 frames lol

 

[EightBitNate]

It wasn't a Ubisoft games so no need to complain about it.

The Witcher 3 got the same treated as UC4, "It still look good!', "Heh I'll just wait for a patch", "The game is so big anyway" "It's still playable" were the usual reaction I saw.

I haven't really kept up with either of those games, but I definitely heard a lot more criticism for The Witcher downgrade than for Uncharted.

 

[D1renegade]

I love bumps like these

 

[farisr]

What about the gameplay that was shown at E3 2015?

The final game looks at least just as good if not better than any gameplay demo they've shown off.

 

[test_account]

It wasn't a Ubisoft games so no need to complain about it.

The Witcher 3 got the same treated as UC4, "It still look good!', "Heh I'll just wait for a patch", "The game is so big anyway" "It's still playable" were the usual reaction I saw.

There were critizism for Uncharted 4 and The Witcher 3 as well though. About a 1000 posts in a thread regarding Uncharted 4 when it was confirmed that the single player was runing in 30fps. Maybe Watchdogs got more attention, but still.

The final game looks at least just as good if not better than any gameplay demo they've shown off.

Thanks for the info. Good to know that this was more representative of the final game at least.

 

[DeepEnigma]

pre-order cancelled

lol

Uncharted 4, the best looking downgrade a game ever got.

/thread

 

[LeleSocho]

lol the Defense Force for Naughty Dog is incredible...
It has been factually proven that they have blatantly lied and what are the responses? "you are salty", "it looks incredible get over it", "what is the point of this bump?"

Typical portion of Sony-GAF... never touch their naughty dogs.
Kudos to you bumper, you are doing god's work.

 

[Portugeezer]

let it go

 

[Mass_Pincup]

There were critizism for Uncharted 4 and The Witcher 3 as well though. About a 1000 posts in a thread regarding Uncharted 4 when it was confirmed that the single player was runing in 30fps. Maybe Watchdogs got more attention, but still.



Thanks for the info. Good to know that this was more representative of the final game at least.

I was in there and like I said, most of the post in there are people saying that it's fine and dismissing any complaint regarding the news.

 

[icespide]

lol the Defense Force for Naughty Dog is incredible...
It has been factually proven that they have blatantly lied and what are the responses? "you are salty", "it looks incredible get over it", "what is the point of this bump?"

Typical portion of Sony-GAF... never touch their naughty dogs.
Kudos to you bumper, you are doing god's work.

possibly the worst post in the thread

 

[test_account]

lol the Defense Force for Naughty Dog is incredible...
It has been factually proven that they have blatantly lied and what are the responses? "you are salty", "it looks incredible get over it", "what is the point of this bump?"

Typical portion of Sony-GAF... never touch their naughty dogs.
Kudos to you bumper, you are doing god's work.

I think those comments were more regarding bumping the thread three months after the game came out just to point out the difference, and also using those gifs. I think it would be better to make a new thread about it instead to be honest.

I was in there and like I said, most of the post in there are people saying that it's fine and dismissing any complaint regarding the news.

I didnt check the thread that much to be honest, i just saw that it got some attention.

 

[Heckler456]

Naughty Dog ruined my life.

 

[Angel_DvA]

lol the Defense Force for Naughty Dog is incredible...
It has been factually proven that they have blatantly lied and what are the responses? "you are salty", "it looks incredible get over it", "what is the point of this bump?"

Typical portion of Sony-GAF... never touch their naughty dogs.
Kudos to you bumper, you are doing god's work.

 

[copelandmaster]

The presentation from ND about their character shading clears up a historical point a lot of people were curious about. Remember how people were saying how that the original UC4 demo rendering is not the same as the one in the launched game / was perhaps not actually real time?

According to their chracter slides:

Then they ended up using some very different tech / paradigms.
---

Doom uses Clustered Forward, interesting!

Thread/PR from 2014: Uncharted 4 Trailer runs in-engine, in-game, in realtime on a single PS4 at 1080p60

Tech paper: "PS4 treated like Render Farm (1 frame at a time). Actually, much of the pretty stuff we used for this trailer was not actually possible to run in real time. So... might've fudged some things here and there..."

PS4/Uncharted Fans: "Lol why u still bringin' this up tho? U mad salty?!"


I guess bumping a tech based thread with post mortem facts on that tech doesn't make sense when you can substitute those facts with your own reality.

 

[RoyalFool]

Being an old fart, I still remember when the early previews would look like hot trash and games would gradually improve with each new preview. Half the time the final game I got looked miles better than the screenshots I saw in PC Gamer 6 months prior, shame that those days of pleasant surprises seems to have died off. I remember installing Total Annihilation and being blown away (they switched to pre-rendered landscapes half way into development).

I don't think Naughty Dog lied in their original claim, I think they did manage to pull off those original graphics on a PS4; but my guess is those cutscenes were built in complete isolation and have no gameplay or even map constraints factored in, and were using a completely different rendering pipeline.

Plus it's pointless to get mad about it, there are at least 1000 gorgeous gif worthy moments in the final product.

 

[lmbotiva]

lol the Defense Force for Naughty Dog is incredible...
It has been factually proven that they have blatantly lied and what are the responses? "you are salty", "it looks incredible get over it", "what is the point of this bump?"

Typical portion of Sony-GAF... never touch their naughty dogs.
Kudos to you bumper, you are doing god's work.

It is obvious that they lied but even at that there's no game on any console that comes even close thay what they delivered so no matter how you see it the xbox defense force still got nothing on ND

 

[FATALITY]

people really wanna see the downfall of naughty dog but man those guys are tough.
bring next game ND, just to make them suffer even more

 

[RoboPlato]

Overreaching the console specs and releasing footage before you were sure of your ability to hit it is a rookie move and one that I wouldn't have expected from ND. Thankfully they realized it before actually showing gameplay and they learn from this in the future.

 

[Heckler456]

To the people playing the "they lied" card, riddle me this: Why? What could they possibly had to gain when they apparently knew all along they wouldn't be able to reach the bar they set for themselves? Do you think that the 2014 reveal has a wider reach than all of the actual marketing they pumped out for this game closer to reveal or something? Pre-orders were also a significant amount of time out to the point where it would hardly be worth their reputation with their fans just to be able to sell the measly amount of extra pre-orders off of the back of those trailers.

 

[Slangblade]

Am I missing something hear. Correct me if I'm wrong, the first trailer ND showed us was in engine but it was cutscene. Then later they showed us gameplay that looked similar to the final product. They never promised us the game would run 60fps. They said they were targeting. How did they lie to us? The first cutscene looks similar to all the cutscene in the final game minus running at 60fps. This is silly. People like to complain about nothing.

 

[exmachina64]

lol the Defense Force for Naughty Dog is incredible...
It has been factually proven that they have blatantly lied and what are the responses? "you are salty", "it looks incredible get over it", "what is the point of this bump?"

Typical portion of Sony-GAF... never touch their naughty dogs.
Kudos to you bumper, you are doing god's work.

It's more over your language choice. This is an industry built upon and maintained by lies. Proving that they lied isn't going to change anything, so what's next?

Thread/PR from 2014: Uncharted 4 Trailer runs in-engine, in-game, in realtime on a single PS4 at 1080p60

Tech paper: "PS4 treated like Render Farm (1 frame at a time). Actually, much of the pretty stuff we used for this trailer was not actually possible to run in real time. So... might've fudged some things here and there..."

PS4/Uncharted Fans: "Lol why u still bringin' this up tho? U mad salty?!"


I guess bumping a tech based thread with post mortem facts on that tech doesn't make sense when you can substitute those facts with your own reality.

People have moved on, the ones that bother responding are naturally going to be diehard fans. Everyone else is looking forward to the next game.

Am I missing something hear. Correct me if I'm wrong, the first trailer ND showed us was in engine but it was cutscene. Then later they showed us gameplay that looked similar to the final product. They never promised us the game would run 60fps. They said they were targeting. How did they lie to us? The first cutscene looks similar to all the cutscene in the final game minus running at 60fps. This is silly. People like to complain about nothing.

People thought that first trailer was representative of the final gameplay. Historically, people have associated "in-engine" with "the game looks like this."

 

[tuxfool]

Am I missing something hear. Correct me if I'm wrong, the first trailer ND showed us was in engine but it was cutscene. Then later they showed us gameplay that looked similar to the final product. They never promised us the game would run 60fps. They said they were targeting. How did they lie to us? The first cutscene looks similar to all the cutscene in the final game minus running at 60fps. This is silly. People like to complain about nothing.

No, what happened is that the fidelity of that trailer was impossible to run on the PS4. This isn't even 60->30. It is will not run well full stop.

I don't think they lied. They were just mistaken, it happens.

 

[N30RYU]

This is an EXCLUSIVE thread

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

No, what happened is that the fidelity of that trailer was impossible to run on the PS4. This isn't even 60->30. It is will not run well full stop.

I don't think they lied. They were just mistaken, it happens.

How do you mistakenly render a supposedly in-engine, in-game, realtime trailer on a single PS4 at 1080p60 with techniques that seasoned engineers know full well would not run in any playable form?

I'll wait.

That's one hell of an oopsie.

 

[Dictator93]

Has anyone made mention how there is apprently 0% aliasing in the released teaser?

Even The Order, which is a forward rendered game with 4XMSAA and some sort of PPAA ontrop of a temporal solution, has visible aliasing...

That sends alarm bells in my head. While I will not doubt the quality of the model presented, I do question the image quality in terms of aliasing. Especially at 60fps.

PR speak decode time.

1. In game visuals = means in game assets
2. in 3D = the graphics have 3 dimensions, aka, polygons bro
3. captured on a PS4 = direct lift from form PS4 output

Nothing in there says real time. I do not doubt Drakes LOD 0 model being like that (as well as having more facial morphs and bones and shit in cutscenes), but I still think we were perhaps a dooped a weebit by their original PR conncerning it.

I am happy I kept a cool head about it.

 

[LeleSocho]

It is obvious that they lied but even at that there's no game on any console that comes even close thay what they delivered so no matter how you see it the xbox defense force still got nothing on ND

It's more over your language choice. This is an industry built upon and maintained by lies. Proving that they lied isn't going to change anything, so what's next?

How are these excuses to what they have done? Who cares that everyone does it? Who cares that the game looks good? And why this should get a pass while others do not?
They lied and they deserve crap just as everyone who does.

 

[Durante]

No, what happened is that the fidelity of that trailer was impossible to run on the PS4. This isn't even 60->30. It is will not run well full stop.

I don't think they lied. They were just mistaken, it happens.

I find it a bit hard to fathom that the excellent engineers at Naughty Dog would have estimated at any point that they could achieve the exact level of IQ in that original trailer on PS4 in-game. I find it more likely that there was a decision made where marketing took precedence over engineering.

 

[Slangblade]

No, what happened is that the fidelity of that trailer was impossible to run on the PS4. This isn't even 60->30. It is will not run well full stop.

I don't think they lied. They were just mistaken, it happens.

Oh I get what your saying but we don't know that for sure. To me that was a cutscene and it's possible that could run on the PS4 with fidelity. Maybe they didn't have time or maybe it's not possible. My point is it wasn't gameplay. In that department the final game looked better.

 

[Detective]

What about the gameplay that was shown at E3 2015?

We are talking about the reveal itself.
Showing cutscenes presented as gameplay. Lie.

DF did a video about that gameplay vs final game. Look it up.

 

[napata]

Am I missing something hear. Correct me if I'm wrong, the first trailer ND showed us was in engine but it was cutscene. Then later they showed us gameplay that looked similar to the final product. They never promised us the game would run 60fps. They said they were targeting. How did they lie to us? The first cutscene looks similar to all the cutscene in the final game minus running at 60fps. This is silly. People like to complain about nothing.

No it doesn't and it's not even close. Just look at the screenshots a couple of pages earlier.

ND's own slides say they couldn't run this trailer real-time on a PS4. They had to use a PS4 as a render farm to achieve the trailer.

Oh I get what your saying but we don't know that for sure. To me that was a cutscene and it's possible that could run on the PS4 with fidelity. Maybe they didn't have time or maybe it's not possible. My point is it wasn't gameplay. In that department the final game looked better.

So you know better than Naugthy Dogs engineers? Okay then.

 

[Budi]

It wasn't a Ubisoft games so no need to complain about it.

The Witcher 3 got the same treated as UC4, "It still look good!', "Heh I'll just wait for a patch", "The game is so big anyway" "It's still playable" were the usual reaction I saw.

Funny, you said the same thing in Witcher 3 downgrade thread that went on for 8000 posts. So clearly there was criticism about it. Many people even said the exact same thing as you. But I do agree that Ubisoft games tend to get shat on most.

That Uncharted 4 thread posted earlier in the other hand, I skimmed through few pages and biggest criticism I saw was basically "disappointing, but expected". So you are very correct that Naughty Dog is forgiven by large majority. Or the expectations are lower to begin with since it's just a console game.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

this thread is amazing, the blindness , the rage, the absolute certainty , the anger.

10/10 thread, would read again

 

[Slangblade]

No it doesn't and it's not even close. Just look at the screenshots a couple of pages earlier.

ND's own slides say they couldn't run this trailer real-time on a PS4. They had to use a PS4 as a render farm to achieve the trailer.



So you know better than Naugthy Dogs engineers? Okay then.

Do me a favor and read my entire post before replying. Not just one sentence

 

[Fredrik]

Overreaching the console specs and releasing footage before you were sure of your ability to hit it is a rookie move and one that I wouldn't have expected from ND. Thankfully they realized it before actually showing gameplay and they learn from this in the future.

I think they kind of dug their own hole with this one regarding the backlash after backpedaling. This is what they said prior to the launch of The Last of Us on PS4:

Why is 60fps important?

"It was a toss-up before; people were saying that you lose quality and graphics and what not," Gregory said when asked why Naughty Dog feels that it's such an important component for the game. "But being able to compare apples to apples like we have now with The Last of Us, going back and playing the 30 Hz version feels, to quote some people in the office, 'broken.' There's something that can't be captured in screenshots and playing an adventure game where you just walk around and experience the world at the smooth 60 Hz.

"There was an internal debate just over the artistic-ness of going 30 or 60, and whether or not it would feel weird. Pretty much every person who had said, 'I'm a 30 Hz person, I don't know if I could play it at 60.' When they finally saw it, they said, 'Nevermind, I'm convinced.'

Will 60fps become the new standard in games?

"We hope so," Gregory said. "It used to just be that first-person shooters were 60 by default, but a lot of other games didn't feel the need for it. I think we're showing that it does make a difference even in a non-FPS type game.

How could they possibly come out and say that Uncharted 4 will be 30fps shortly after that? They kind of set the bar on how this generation should look and play by saying that, and it was simply unreachable even for them. But no matter how awesome the final game looks, I still think the reactions on going for 30fps are valid, it's a definitive downgrade for sure.

 

[Son Of D]

It wasn't a Ubisoft games so no need to complain about it.

The Witcher 3 got the same treated as UC4, "It still look good!', "Heh I'll just wait for a patch", "The game is so big anyway" "It's still playable" were the usual reaction I saw.

Dark Souls 2 got a lot of negativity for the downgrade and FromSoft are well liked here. And I did see some comments about TW3. Nothing for Uncharted 4 though outside a minority.

 

[icespide]

for people that think ND "got a pass" for this. what do you mean exactly? there was quite a bit of discussion and rage when it was announced that the single player would in fact, be 30fps and not 60fps.

what exactly constitutes as your pound of flesh for this?

 

[CrayToes]

Lmao of course ND gets a pass.

 

[bidguy]

for people that think ND "got a pass" for this. what do you mean exactly? there was quite a bit of discussion and rage when it was announced that the single player would in fact, be 30fps and not 60fps.

what exactly constitutes as your pound of flesh for this?

why are you being selective ?

EDIT : wrong thread bro carry on LOL

 

[farisr]

And why this should get a pass while others do not?
They lied and they deserve crap just as everyone who does.

1) It didn't get a pass, look at this thread and the other thread when naughty dog confirmed the game will run at 30fps.

2) They never showed a gameplay demo running at that fidelity that was not achievable, something that has happened for other games, thus avoiding the really heavy criticism that some of those other games got.

3) The first gameplay they ever showed was in December 2014, setting the expectation a year and a half ahead of time of what the game will look like (the final game surpassed it, or at the very least matched it depending on who you ask).

That is why they're not getting as much crap as everyone else who did.

We are talking about the reveal itself.
Showing cutscenes presented as gameplay. Lie.

DF did a video about that gameplay vs final game. Look it up.

The reveal wasn't gameplay. It was a cutscene of him waking up and going into the jungle. It was presented as a real-time cutscene, they never called it "gameplay." Calling it real-time was the lie according to those slides. Edit: or maybe not

The most valuable lesson we learned was - Shipping a game was way different than making a real-time demo.Gameplay and having smooth framerates are always the number one priority. There are so many things in our game could slow down the frame rates, such as crowds, particles, complex environments, etc.

But making it sound like they showed off gameplay at that fidelity or presented the trailer as gameplay is simply false.

First gameplay they ever showed off was at PSX 2014.

 

[icespide]

edit nvm

 

[tuxfool]

How do you mistakenly render a supposedly in-engine, in-game, realtime trailer on a single PS4 at 1080p60 with techniques that seasoned engineers know full well would not run in any playable form?

I'll wait.

That's one hell of an oopsie.

I find it a bit hard to fathom that the excellent engineers at Naughty Dog would have estimated at any point that they could achieve the exact level of IQ in that original trailer on PS4 in-game. I find it more likely that there was a decision made where marketing took precedence over engineering.

Certainly it is a possibility. But those Siggraph slides definitely suggest that they initially thought the former was possible. We have no real timeline as to when they realised it wouldn't work. They wouldn't have taken that approach to start with if they felt that they were wasting their time.

Oh I get what your saying but we don't know that for sure. To me that was a cutscene and it's possible that could run on the PS4 with fidelity. Maybe they didn't have time or maybe it's not possible. My point is it wasn't gameplay. In that department the final game looked better.

The final game looks worse in every way (and at half the frame rate they initially thought possible). The differences are subtle and not worth making a fuss over, but they were wrong at the time they made those initial pronouncements.

 

[Acquiescence]

Now there's a thread bump that's been brewing for a long time.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Funny, you said the same thing in Witcher 3 downgrade thread that went on for 8000 posts. So clearly there was criticism about it. Many people even said the exact same thing as you. But I do agree that Ubisoft games tend to get shat on most.

That Uncharted 4 thread posted earlier in the other hand, I skimmed through few pages and biggest criticism I saw was basically "disappointing, but expected". So you are very correct that Naughty Dog is forgiven by large majority. Or the expectations are lower to begin with since it's just a console game.

The Witcher 3 downgrade thread left me with the same impression than the UC4 one, here's the thread.

Albeit less than with UC4 but it was still the prevalent line of thought imo.

 

[Lord Error]

The cutscenes mainly do everything better: shaders, sss, lighting and indirect, maybe a better LOD for the character too. Yeah it looks to be just on the character models just like the last of us prerender.

There are times in the game where they use cutscene-quality rendering while you remain in control of the game. It's some times where the action is very narrowly controlled, of course.

But mostly, their transitions between the gameplay rendering and cutscene rendering have been seriously good, and the difference never hits you in your face. I think they in fact had some smooth transition between the two, not just an on/of switch. One example that comes to mind is the scene where the Jeep almost falls down the cliff.

 

[test_account]

We are talking about the reveal itself.
Showing cutscenes presented as gameplay. Lie.

DF did a video about that gameplay vs final game. Look it up.

Sure, i know, what i asked was a follow up question to this, "how did the 2015 E3 gameplay footage compared to the final game?".

The 2014 teaser was clearly a cutscene by the way. We saw that with how the camera was moving (gameplay wouldnt have camera work like that). But i could see why people thought this would be in game fidelity too based on the real-time comment. I thought so myself.

Thanks for the tip about the DF video. Seems like the E3 2015 stuff that was shown is quite representative to the final product. This is good at least because people who dont read forums and such are much more likely to have seen this footage, and the later footage is always more relevant than the old stuff. So even if they lied in 2014, at least the 2015 footage is representative.


---

Here is what Naughty Dog said regarding the slides that were posted earlier:

"The most valuable lesson we learned was - Shipping a game was way different than making a real-time demo.Gameplay and having smooth framerates are always the number one priority. There are so many things in our game could slow down the frame rates, such as crowds, particles, complex environments, etc.

We had to cut down the cost of characters constantly, instead of mainly focusing on pretty images. There were so many times we almost lost hope about whether we were able to ship something decent with such strict limitations.Fortunately, we have a great team with all kind of creative ideas and always there to help each other. It’s a great honor to be part of the team, and it’s a great learning experiences to work on this challenging project."

 

[rambis]

Dictator posted the slides in his other thread and I dont think it means what you all are taking it to mean. They really didnt mention that trailer at all.

I know, what i asked was a follow up question to this, "how did the 2015 E3 gameplay footage compared to the final game?".

The 2014 teaser was clearly a cutscene by the way. We saw that with how the camera was moving (gameplay wouldnt have camera work like that). But i could see why people thought this would be in game fidelity too based on the real-time comment. I thought so myself.

Thanks for the tip about the DF video. Seems like the E3 2015 stuff that was shown is quite representative to the final product. This is good at least because people who dont read forums and such are much more likely to have seen this footage, and the later footage is always more relevant than the old stuff. So even if they lied in 2014, at least the 2015 footage is representative.


---

Here is what Naughty Dog said regarding the slides that were posted earlier:

"The most valuable lesson we learned was - Shipping a game was way different than making a real-time demo.Gameplay and having smooth framerates are always the number one priority. There are so many things in our game could slow down the frame rates, such as crowds, particles, complex environments, etc.

We had to cut down the cost of characters constantly, instead of mainly focusing on pretty images. There were so many times we almost lost hope about whether we were able to ship something decent with such strict limitations.Fortunately, we have a great team with all kind of creative ideas and always there to help each other. It’s a great honor to be part of the team, and it’s a great learning experiences to work on this challenging project."

Yes people need to understand this. Because the final game had to be scaled back as a whole means nothing about a particular slice being rendered in a trailer.

 

[Caddyshack]

Well now that the game has been out for a couple of months we finally face the reality, the game never looked like that. Sit back, grab some popcorn, enjoy re-reading through the first few pages and remember,things aren't always what they seem to be. mr skeltal is watching u bros. stay frosty.

I'm embarassed for you.