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[Morrigan Stark]

A few things:

1) Feel bad about portables being painful, can totally believe and understand that. You have a totally legitimate gripe with jrpgs going to portables there, and I don't blame you for being frustrated with that. Won't tell you to just get used to it either, it's bs that your hands being uncomfortable gets in your way there.

Have you checked out whether the 2DS is more comfortable for your grip? Iirc, it was supposed to be pretty good for people who found the 3DS, DS uncomfortable

Thank you for understanding. No, never tried the 2DS. I probably won't, 'cause I'm not really motivated to buy a device I'd rarely play for other reasons even if they were were comfortable anyway. My PSP doesn't hurt my hands as much as the 3DS, but I still very rarely use it.

2) Consoles don't fit everyone either. A console basically means you have to also have an HD Tv, and it's not as convenient. Portable consoles didn't just become big because people like playing on smaller screen. They're really fucking convenient to carry around and play.

Sure. It sucks that nearly an entire genre is relegated to it though. Imagine if all of a sudden there were no more JRPGs or Metroidvanias for handhelds and it was only for PC now.

Almost every single game here never had the sales to get the budget to go to HD, and you expecting them too is sort of silly. Most successful series that aren't FF here are Xenogears (1.1 million isn't getting a Xeno game on HD consoles as a major hit, plus Monolith Soft) and Chrono Trigger (Got 2 re-releases, a sequel that sold less, but tbh, yeah, why is this dead? Still iffy on if it would get major sales for it to be major hitter SE plans for, but I could definitely see it on consoles)

It sucks, but that's the truth of it.

Yeah I'm aware they were not that successful, but with proper marketing they certainly could be.

Tell me more about how well this Breath of Fire game with better sprite art for PC and consoles would sell today. Like it or not, the majority of games with sprites are indies, a major jrpg release isn't happening with sprites on the PS4 and XB1.

What about Vanillaware? Not quite traditional JRPG, they're closer to beat-em-ups with RPG elements, but yeah, I don't think it's that out of left field. Dragon's Crown sold pretty well.

Writing is just one aspect of many to judge rpgs by, and yes, in general, you want most games to excel in the different aspects that make up a game. But that's a 10/10 game right there, and sometimes you don't get 10/10.

I think the point of the OP is that not only we haven't had a 10/10 JRPG since forever, we haven't even had a whole lot of barely-7/10 games on consoles. And that sucks.

You know, people always say this but the pacing and ratio of pressing A to scroll inane, padded dialogue to exploring dungeons and fighting is way off if you're looking for your old school jRPG fix. If you like visual novels with a little bit of combat to break things up maybe you'll be down with the Trails series. But if you're craving the return of FF6 or Lufia II it's not going to fit.

Yeah, I like Trails a lot, but that's true enough.

OP, I've come to the conclusion that the traditional style from the early to mid-90s is effectively extinct.

Zeboyd will save us *nods furiously*

Man, I hear you but using Breath of Fire 3 as an example is a strange choice since you play the first half of that as a pre-teen hero and the series as a whole is well known for cat women like, uh, Katt and other sexy girls with animal characteristics like Nina, Momo, and Ursula.

Sexy? Momo?

I can't comment on BoF IV since I didn't get very far into it before losing my save. But while BoF III might have some JRPG tropes in its cast, on paper, it was actually handled with a fair amount of maturity and the cast was very charming. Ryu starts as a pre-teen boy but he grows up and most of the game is playing him as a young adult, not a pre-teen. Nina and Momo aren't sexualized at all (Nina's outfit is arguably more cute than sexy and Momo, uh, I really don't see it). Garr, Rei and Teepo were awesome. I can't remember sexy cat girls in BoF III. Point taken about Katt, but Ursula? Really?

So yeah, I'm with this poster, the BoF III cast was cool.

 

[Zolo]

I think the point of the OP is that not only we haven't had a 10/10 JRPG since forever, we haven't even had a whole lot of barely-7/10 games on consoles. And that sucks.

Persona 5 comes out in 5 months in the west. (*^▽^*)

 

[irriadin]

Discounting Trails in the Sky on account of perceived "tropes" is doing the games an incredible disservice. Tropes exist for a reason, and almost any story or characters can be reduced to "tropes", so I really am having a difficult time seeing that as a negative. Trails does rely on tropes, but unlike many other series, it has a great deal of worldbuilding, lore and foresight in its plotting, which makes the experience much richer and more meaningful.

 

[redcrayon]

Not really sure how the argument between portables and consoles keeps popping up, what's wrong with understanding that the attributes of both work better for some than others?

I love portables, portability overrides big screens and home cinema systems for me 100% of the time. A game I can't play on the train is missing a critical feature for me, but then I commute for two hours a day.

If I drove to work and my hobby time was spent sitting in front of a TV, like it was a decade ago, I'd be asking for the games I want to be on home consoles too.

 

[Aselith]

The Bravely games are very good

 

[Teknoman]

I will say I want more high theatric(?) RPGs of any genre ala FFXII, Tactics, or Ogre Battle.

 

[Lindsay]

Well, more sleep function with portability. Because that means it's available for me to play over the course of a day.

Of course, this is true of any handheld game, but it just works better with certain genres, like Metroidvanias, platformers, puzzle games, rpgs, where you can stop and start between battles, save points, levels, puzzles, etc.

Portability is convenient but the whole pausing/unpausing while you go about your day doesn't seem like a great way to play rpgs to me. Kinda hard ta get enthralled with the characters/story/world playing in short on/off situations like that. I think they're generally meant to be games ya sit down an play for more then say 20 minutes per session. Whether for the story progression or battling they're supposed ta suck you in an keep ya playing moreso then many other game types. If your daily schedule an activities prevent ya from having straight hour or so play sessions then yeah its nice to have 'em on a handheld, but it still kinda goes against how it feels like they were intended to be played. Not that theres anything wrong with going against devs intentions, otherwise speedruns and gimmick runs and other such things wouldn't exist!

 

[AppleSeason]

For me it feels like they are still aimed at teenagers and I already passed that stage. It's hard to find something like Nier, of it they had gone with the original plan and having Basch as the protagonist of FFXII.

Although I did not like it a lot, Trails in the Sky felt fresh compared to what companies output lately. And megaten games have become my new safe haven.

 

[casiopao]

As for recent anime and JRPGs, the only thing I've seen that's really risen up in popularity that's god awful and horrible is the rise in popularity of loli's in games and anime/manga. Sure. There was a bit even in the 90s/early 00's, but NOWHERE near what it is now.

Actually. Loli tropes in Japan in the past is anything but bit lol.(Cardcaptor Sakura and Tokyo Mew Mew is damn famous with all the loli lol. Hell, Martion Successor Nadesico most famous captain is also loli lol.) Even the very first Fire Emblem had Tiki as their loli shares.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Persona 5 comes out in 5 months in the west. (*^▽^*)

Not interested. :|

 

[Burt]

I will say I want more high theatric(?) RPGs of any genre ala FFXII, Tactics, or Ogre Battle.

Hnnngggg

Matsuno save us

 

[irriadin]

I will say I want more high theatric(?) RPGs of any genre ala FFXII, Tactics, or Ogre Battle.

Basically more Matsuno. I'm with you. The amount of lore and content in Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together is insane.

 

[JustSomeone]

Not interested. :|

How dare you not be intrested

Spoiler

in the most overated JRPG series of all time

?

 

[Azuran]

It's funny how people always talk about JRPGs being crap nowadays by comparing mediocre and forgettable games like Rogue Galaxy to masterpieces like Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger. It's so disingenuous.

The 90's had a ton of shitty JRPGs too. The difference is that you didn't get to play them because they never got localized since the market for them wasn't as big as it is today.'

I think the point of the OP is that not only we haven't had a 10/10 JRPG since forever, we haven't even had a whole lot of barely-7/10 games on consoles. And that sucks.

Shin Megami Tensei IV Final came out this year tho..

 

[Aselith]

Rogue Galaxy isn't really a good example of a modern RPG, since it came out 11 years ago.

And it was bad then too

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Matsuno save us

Don't worry, he will, we have Unsung Story!

Spoiler

I'm sorry

Spoiler

I'm so, so very sorry

People always talk about JRPGs being crap nowadays by comparing garbage like Rogue Galaxy to masterpieces like Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger. It's so disingenous.

The 90's had a on of shitty JRPGs too. The difference is that you didn't get to play them because they never got localized since the market for them wasn't as big as it is today.

It's true that there were shitty RPGs then too. But what are the modern equivalents of FFVI and Chrono Trigger? I can't think of any.

 

[casiopao]

Discounting Trails in the Sky on account of perceived "tropes" is doing the games an incredible disservice. Tropes exist for a reason, and almost any story or characters can be reduced to "tropes", so I really am having a difficult time seeing that as a negative. Trails does rely on tropes, but unlike many other series, it has a great deal of worldbuilding, lore and foresight in its plotting, which makes the experience much richer and more meaningful.

Many here uses the words tropes on negative connotation lol. While i don't really had any problem with trops in Trails series, i sure as hell really don't like the game. The game feel like playing Visual Novel first before a Rpg. The game story and worldbuilding may be great but it emphasized on that aspect so much while the dungeon, and battle system design is not really good.T_T Hell, i would even said boring which is the reason why i never follow the series and i really wanted to like the series too.T_T

 

[Hyperactivity]

Thank you for understanding. No, never tried the 2DS. I probably won't, 'cause I'm not really motivated to buy a device I'd rarely play for other reasons even if they were were comfortable anyway. My PSP doesn't hurt my hands as much as the 3DS, but I still very rarely use it.


Sure. It sucks that nearly an entire genre is relegated to it though. Imagine if all of a sudden there were no more JRPGs or Metroidvanias for handhelds and it was only for PC now.


Yeah I'm aware they were not that successful, but with proper marketing they certainly could be.


What about Vanillaware? Not quite traditional JRPG, they're closer to beat-em-ups with RPG elements, but yeah, I don't think it's that out of left field. Dragon's Crown sold pretty well.


I think the point of the OP is that not only we haven't had a 10/10 JRPG since forever, we haven't even had a whole lot of barely-7/10 games on consoles. And that sucks.

Yeah, an entire genre being stuck to one console sucks, but jrpgs haven't even suffered the most in that aspect. 2D platformers were almost entirely dead on consoles for a while, Beat 'Em Ups only recently came back with indies, and 3D Platorming became a pretty Nintendo exclusive thing last generation, and is only barely starting to come back.

I'd disagree with the idea that we haven't had recent 10/10 or 9/10 jrpgs, even on consoles. Sure, I don't think Xenoblade's story is too good, but what it does do well makes me rate it that high, personally.

And no, I don't think proper marketing would do too much. You're basically asking a company to invest more money than it ever has before on a series that has historically never been too big (meaning that, if anything, it's less inviting to newcomers and would have to market itself as a new game in many ways), on a genre that asides from a few major hits has never sold the sorts of numbers other major franchises have, and on top of it all, the genre isn't even in it's console heyday anymore, and your main market in Japan isn't as big on consoles anymore.

Maybe it works, but it would be a really tough sell. And unlike other genres that benefited from going indie or digital, people often expect long fulfilling stories from a jrpg, 10 hours would be woefully short for a campaign (other genres could get away with that). This means that there's a minimum amount of work going into the writing and dialogue of the game, more than say when Ubisoft makes Trials of the Blood Dragon, which can have a shorter campaign

As for 2DS, I would still recommend you get it if a good sale comes up, because if the 3ds is painful I doubt a DS is good either. And while 3DS has a pretty decent JRPG library, you'd also get access to the DS JRPG library, which is gigantic and will probably have games you do really like. Think refurbished 2ds go for about $80, brand new go for $100, so I imagine a sale or bundle bringing it to a pretty good value range, plus a bunch of great DS games being cheaper these days.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Discounting Trails in the Sky on account of perceived "tropes" is doing the games an incredible disservice. Tropes exist for a reason, and almost any story or characters can be reduced to "tropes", so I really am having a difficult time seeing that as a negative. Trails does rely on tropes, but unlike many other series, it has a great deal of worldbuilding, lore and foresight in its plotting, which makes the experience much richer and more meaningful.

I agree that tropes are tools to be used rather than inherent flaws. But for all that talking, it doesn't feel authentic. I don't find any of the characterization or dialogue in Trails to be particularly naturalistic. They come off like exhaustively characterized anime or manga "types" rather than people. NPCs talk a lot but they don't say much.

Everybody in town has a ton of dialogue that seems to change with every single event trigger but most of it is meaningless blather written in a very similar speaking voice. I don't particularly want to hear every piece of small talk and I honestly don't believe there's anything you can do with a game's plot in 80 hours that you couldn't do in 30. Combine that with the fact that the core combat's kind of slow and boring and the battle music is mostly poor, and, well I guess I don't understand what all the fuss was about.

I know the games have a good pedigree and were monumentally hard to localize and any port in a storm and all that, but I can't say they're particularly enjoyable to an old salt like myself. Too much light novel, not enough of the harder stuff for my tastes. In a better timeline Oath in Felghana would be the game that saved the company and thus the template everything they'd make from there on would be hammered into.

 

[sonicmj1]

Anime is generally style over substance. It's in the medium's DNA to lean towards the trashy side.

I'm watching Ranma 1/2 now and nothing has changed since then. Anime writing is just like that. The medium draws upon itself for inspiration and is wholly unique in that sense.

The thing with anime is that it's mostly adaptation. Ranma 1/2, for example, was adapted from a manga. Generally, the majority of shows airing at any given time are adaptations of (or advertisements for) some source manga, video game, or light novel. Some of those original works are pretty well written. Unfortunately, most of them aren't.

So it's not really that anime only draws from anime, exactly, but there's a whole genre ecosystem aimed at certain demographics that has been culturally cannibalizing itself for quite a while, leaving a lot of the output (video games included) as a mass of stale cliches. Things that land outside the box of the expected often wind up ignored because the audience just wants what it knows.

The Western example of something like this would be YA fiction (like the Dystopian YA Novel).

 

[Dark_castle]

Don't worry, he will, we have Unsung Story!

Spoiler

I'm sorry

Spoiler

I'm so, so very sorry

It's true that there were shitty RPGs then too. But what are the modern equivalents of FFVI and Chrono Trigger? I can't think of any.

Radiant Historia is a worthy successor to CT. It in fact in my opinion is superior in some aspects, and is a great game in general.

For FFVI, I would have to recommend you to play FFIX. There is a Steam port which was a great port.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Sexy? Momo?

You've never heard of the fetishes for girls with glasses and academic types? I don't mean that she's dressing lewdly or anything. Call it an appealing and attractive design if you prefer. She's definitely what the kids call waifu material.

Also, I thought Breath of Fire as a whole was pretty good, so don't take my pointing out that BOF3 met a lot of criteria of that other posters' complaints as a complaint in and of itself.

 

[Bitanator]

All there needs to be is a massive budget Skies of Arcadia sequel, hundreds of discoveries, smartphone app to replace the VMU, 60+ hours of sky traveling, ship battling, lambda bursting goodness.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Portability is convenient but the whole pausing/unpausing while you go about your day doesn't seem like a great way to play rpgs to me. Kinda hard ta get enthralled with the characters/story/world playing in short on/off situations like that. I think they're generally meant to be games ya sit down an play for more then say 20 minutes per session. Whether for the story progression or battling they're supposed ta suck you in an keep ya playing moreso then many other game types. If your daily schedule an activities prevent ya from having straight hour or so play sessions then yeah its nice to have 'em on a handheld, but it still kinda goes against how it feels like they were intended to be played. Not that theres anything wrong with going against devs intentions, otherwise speedruns and gimmick runs and other such things wouldn't exist!

Unpausing and pausing throughout the day, sure, that's not too good. Maybe it doesn't lend itself to 10 minute sessions the way a puzzle game might. But 20-40 minute sessions while I'm going somewhere (public transport/someone else driving)? Being able to pull it out during lunch and play it? Yeah, you can play quite a bit in that time.

And sometimes, you can't find time to put hours into a game, or when you're at home, you have other stuff that you might do instead (whereas while you're traveling, you have less you might do). I find it really disorientating to come back to an RPG if I haven't played it for a while, so yeah, playing an rpg in 10 minute sessions sounds terrible, but if I can play it for hours one day but won't get a chance to do so again for a while, those 20-40 minute sessions are going let me keep it going, rather than stop and come back confused.

And yeah, sometimes you pick the game up, and you have to reorient yourself. But with portables, the time you're away can be alot less, so that effect is so much less drastic

 

[Burt]

Don't worry, he will, we have Unsung Story!

Spoiler

I'm sorry

Spoiler

I'm so, so very sorry

Radiant Historia is a worthy successor to CT. It in fact in my opinion is superior in some aspects, and is a great game in general.

Im in the middle of my first run through and it's great

But bruh

C'mon bruh

Pump them breaks

I'd say "scratches the itch" more than "worthy successor".

 

[Morrigan Stark]

For FFVI, I would have to recommend you to play FFIX.

FFIX is modern?

You've never heard of the fetishes for girls with glasses and academic types? I don't mean that she's dressing lewdly or anything. Call it an appealing and attractive design if you prefer. She's definitely what the kids call waifu material.

By that standard, that'd be every JRPG female character ever. C'mon. They're always at least a bit pretty, even when they're demi-human, lol.

Also, I thought Breath of Fire as a whole was pretty good, so don't take my pointing out that BOF3 met a lot of criteria of that other posters' complaints as a complaint in and of itself.

Understood. I just disagree that the BoFIII's cast is really typical of the modern otaku-bait stuff you see in many modern JRPGs.

 

[Parfait]

Tell me more about how well this Breath of Fire game with better sprite art for PC and consoles would sell today. Like it or not, the majority of games with sprites are indies, a major jrpg release isn't happening with sprites on the PS4 and XB1.

Believe me, I honestly hate alot of what the jump to HD did to the budgets of a lot of video games, especially because I rarely am up to date with what games I'm playing at a certain time, but it's happened, and somehow expecting the Breath of Fire series to get onto consoles was always something that was ridiculous. As for Monster Hunter and Dragon Quest, sales outside Japan for those series weren't enough to justify console development at that time, and Monster Hunter grew HUGE on portables.

I guess the thing for me is that I grew up more on portables than home consoles, and tbh, having the screen closer to my face and being able to take the game anywhere is a pretty valuable thing for me. I think it sucks that there aren't as many console jrpgs, and that the jrpgs that are great are barely mentioned (but my issue with the 2nd isn't that they're on portable consoles, but that portable consoles are getting ignored)

And TWEWY's control scheme doesn't have as much to do with it being portable as the control scheme by itself (search up the Bidou controller scheme for smash bros - that controller scheme being awkward as hell isn't an issue with the Pro controller)

I don't have a big need for the actual portability when it comes to the portables. I just got them because the games I wanted were there and I found it lacking in comfort and fun. Dq8 is going to be awful on 3ds for me because a big part of that game back on ps2 was the beautiful open world and scenery. And I'm supposed to enjoy that on this small screened thing with worse graphics?

How a new, indieish breath of fire would sell? Probably alright with good marketing and decent budgeting I figure. Then again I don't know how well I am setsuna did, and that's the closest example i can think of when it comes to bringing back older ips with smaller budgets but decent dev teams.

I just want more non portable and good RPGs. Life is dark and lonely.

 

[Azuran]

It's true that there were shitty RPGs then too. But what are the modern equivalents of FFVI and Chrono Trigger? I can't think of any.

Xenoblade and Persona 4 are the first that come to mind. Critically acclaimed titles by both fans and critics that people will continue to praise and play for years to come.

But I know I'm not going to change your mind considering you have shown your dislike for those games multiple times in threads like this.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Xenoblade and Persona 4 are the first that come to mind. Critically acclaimed titles that people will continue to praise and play for years to come.

But I know I'm not going to change your mind considering you have shown your dislike for those games multiple times in threads like this.

Yeah lol. Comparing Xenoblade to FFVI is a complete sacrilege as far as I'm concerned. xD Sigh...

 

[Dynasty8]

Honestly, it's the cringe characters/storylines.

Growing up and playing old school FF games and other games like Chrono Trigger were interesting.

Now there's TOO MUCH anime :/

Almost all modern day JRPGs have shitty stories and child characters that make me want to turn off the game. Otherwise, the gameplay still rocks (looking at you Tales of and Star Ocean).

 

[Pellegri Testament]

You've never heard of the fetishes for girls with glasses and academic types? I don't mean that she's dressing lewdly or anything. Call it an appealing and attractive design if you prefer. She's definitely what the kids call waifu material.

Also, I thought Breath of Fire as a whole was pretty good, so don't take my pointing out that BOF3 met a lot of criteria of that other posters' complaints as a complaint in and of itself.

Literally everything could be considered a fetish though. If a girl being smart and wearing glasses is enough to set someone off and list it as a flaw in a game then I honestly don't know what to tell you. It's the same for "waifu material", there will be people who find any female character attractive in some way. Hell, there's people who consider loli Nina to be a "waifu".

 

[Teknoman]

Hnnngggg

Matsuno save us

Basically more Matsuno. I'm with you. The amount of lore and content in Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together is insane.

lol I just realized thats pretty much what I want. Well Matsuno with a Sakimoto soundtrack.

 

[casiopao]

Honestly, it's the cringe characters/storylines.

Growing up and playing old school FF games and other games like Chrono Trigger were interesting.

Now there's TOO MUCH anime :/

Almost all modern day JRPGs have shitty stories and child characters that make me want to turn off the game. Otherwise, the gameplay still rocks (looking at you Tales of and Star Ocean).

Xenoblade Chronicle X almost all except one party member is all old/adult lol.

 

[Pyrrhus]

By that standard, that'd be every JRPG female character ever. C'mon. They're always at least a bit pretty, even when they're demi-human, lol.

Agreed, but to play the pedant, there's Ershin in BOFIV. We'll ignore the fact that it's the soul of busty Naga sorceress Deis in there. And Dragon Quarter Nina is sickly and pathetic, though I realize there's a sizable demographic that's totally up for that.

Understood. I just disagree that the BoFIII's cast is really typical of the modern otaku-bait stuff you see in many modern JRPGs.

Again, agreed. I'm not sure we're on opposite sides of the argument here.

 

[Burt]

Xenoblade and Persona 4 are the first that come to mind. Critically acclaimed titles by both fans and critics that people will continue to praise and play for years to come.

But I know I'm not going to change your mind considering you have shown your dislike for those games multiple times in threads like this.

Xenoblade is an overstuffed cliche-ridden spend-your-game-staring-up-the-ass-end-of-a-dinosaur through a screen door of a UI as you follow a whiny, stupid protagonist wearing insane clothes while being badgered by the most blatant moogle ripoff in the history of time since moogles were invented.

Spoiler

7.75/10

Spoiler

bonus points for that metal face dudes legit British gangster accent

 

[Jangowuzhere]

Yeah, it really sucks.

I started playing through Tales of Zestria not too long ago. It's just...super boring. For a game that came out last year, it sure does feel like a PS2 game. The stilted presentation and inhuman dialogue just takes me out of it completely.

 

[irriadin]

I agree that tropes are tools to be used rather than inherent flaws. But for all that talking, it doesn't feel authentic. I don't find any of the characterization or dialogue in Trails to be particularly naturalistic. They come off like exhaustively characterized anime or manga "types" rather than people. NPCs talk a lot but they don't say much.

Everybody in town has a ton of dialogue that seems to change with every single event trigger but most of it is meaningless blather written in a very similar speaking voice. I don't particularly want to hear every piece of small talk and I honestly don't believe there's anything you can do with a game's plot in 80 hours that you couldn't do in 30. Combine that with the fact that the core combat's kind of slow and boring and the battle music is mostly poor, and, well I guess I don't understand what all the fuss was about.

I know the games have a good pedigree and were monumentally hard to localize and any port in a storm and all that, but I can't say they're particularly enjoyable to an old salt like myself. Too much light novel, not enough of the harder stuff for my tastes. In a better timeline Oath in Felghana would be the game that saved the company and thus the template everything they'd make from there on would be hammered into.

I understand where you're coming from. The townspeople are overly verbose and everyone has a story, but I found it to be rather charming, if inconsequential. It's nice to see townspeople and minor NPCs as 'people' rather than serving as devices for communicating plot points, game mechanics, etc.

Now as for main characters in the game, I heartily disagree with you. The characters change and grow A LOT, it just happens much slower than is typical in videogames. I also disagree with you about the length, but it's a complaint I've heard of other mediums as well. I am naturally predisposed to longer stories (so long as they are well conceived) like the works of fantasy authors, etc. Trails in the Sky is an epic; part of its identity is BEING epic in scope and length. There could have been more streamlining in the games, for certain. SC in particular could have used a few trims. But culling over 1/2 the story would have weakened the impact.

Core combat being slow, I will agree with you totally there. Thankfully they sped things up a tiny notch in SC, but yea, the battle system is old, slightly cumbersome and slow. It can still be exciting and frenetic during all the important moments, however.

 

[ULTROS!]

I think the issues why we see JRPGs as "horrible" nowadays are because:

1. An over abundance of tropey anime games made by NIS and Compile Heart (Neptunia series specifically). It's very niche and definitely not everyone's cup of tea but they chug out more JRPGs than probably SE.

2. Developers following the anime trend. I assume back in the early to late 90s, anime was new and featured a lot of mech and less cutesy stuff compared to nowadays?

3. People growing up and have higher expectations when it comes to story and gameplay.

Maybe you are playing the wrong JRPGs. Try Trails in the Sky.

Technically TitS released in 2004 in Japan, so that makes it an older JRPG.

The best comparison is probably Zero and Ao no Kiseki, or even Trails of Cold Steel.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Yeah lol. Comparing Xenoblade to FFVI is a complete sacrilege as far as I'm concerned. xD Sigh...

In that they're two completely separate types of jrpg? Yeah, it is sacrilege.

But how many jrpgs can even try and compare themselves to the scale and size of the areas in Xenoblade. You not really feeling like an open world jrpg doesn't mean it wasn't a damn good game.

I spent hours upon hours just exploring the FIRST AREA in the game. If you want a FF type game, you're probably going to have to look at that very series to deliver it.

Xenoblade is an overstuffed cliche-ridden spend-your-game-staring-up-the-ass-end-of-a-dinosaur through a screen door of a UI as you follow a whiny, stupid protagonist wearing insane clothes while being badgered by the most blatant moogle ripoff in the history of time since moogles were invented.

Spoiler

7.75/10

Spoiler

bonus points for that metal face dudes legit British gangster accent

Yeah, way to miss what made Xenoblade great. It's not the classic linear story focused JRPG, but it's a awesome take on evolving the genre and taking it to new places. And it does that really really well.

If you're looking for Final Fantasy in your Xenoblade, you're going to be disappointed. No duh.

Yeah, it's story is more typical. But Xenoblade had a great combat system (I can see why people might dislike, but it innovated, I never like ATB becoming big over here either), mixing MMO style attacks with the positions, semi-controlling your partners, chain attacks, etc. It had a ridiculously large scale (every single area in the game is gigantic). The music is up there with the greatest soundtracks out there. It looks beautiful, even if it's on the Wii. So yeah, I think it's 10/10 past it's weak story.

 

[Red Frost]

If you can't play on handhelds, tough luck I guess.

You could partially alleviate that by getting a PSTV, but there's still a ton on DS/3DS.

 

[redcrayon]

I feel like there are major issues worth discussing with the state of JRPGs in general, but I'm not sure the OP really puts their finger on what they are when accusing them of being about amnesiac teens with daddy issues on quests is about as much of a cliche these days as the subject matter itself.

As far as home console JRPGs go, the problem (as far as I can see) is how they managed last gen and budget issues, which are far more of an issue for the health of the big, epic games that people seem to want than laying it at the feet of the quick, cheap Loli games knocked out on the Vita.

Tales and Star Ocean have always revelled in anime-type stories to mixed results, but look at Lost Odyssey, White Knight Chronicles, Resonance of Fate. All of them tried something different, WKC even had a sequel and a portable spin-off, and none of them established an IP that could be carried forward.

Which of the JRPG series survived to re-emerge this gen on home consoles? I'd argue that Persona only did because the late PS2 game and Vita port (combined with being a great game obviously) allowed it to avoid the money pit that was last gen, and stay visible while staying cheap. Star Ocean is limping along, Tales is as formulaic as ever, FF still commands as much spare cash as Square can find.

Developers could barely afford to take risks on home console games last gen and it seems to have killed any enthusiasm at all for doing so this gen. Western IP is focus-tested to oblivion, carefully managed to be all things to all people as the genres coalesce into the modern AAA computer game. They don't aim at a single specific fan base, WRPGs are now attracting action game fans, and action games/shooters attract RPG fans through that magic-phrase 'RPG elements'.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, I'm sure it's a stream of consciousness with as many flaws as the OP, but I t seems to me that JRPGs have three options on home consoles. 1) They can try that approach to appeal to players globally and outside their traditional fan base, which is now both insanely expensive to do but with potentially finding a future for the games on home consoles if they manage it.
2) They can double down on the shrinking group of remaining fans and release cheap formulaic stuff.
3) The most optimistic view is that they keep the flavour of the games and sell it globally, which is pretty much what Square said was now their focus rather than 'westernising' (is that even a word?). FFXV's success or failure financially (don't they need 10m sales?) is going to hinge on whether they can make this philosophy work. If it does, maybe we'll see other developers follow in its wake.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

In that they're two completely separate types of jrpg? Yeah, it is sacrilege.

But how many jrpgs can even try and compare themselves to the scale and size of the areas in Xenoblade. You not really feeling like an open world jrpg doesn't mean it wasn't a damn good game.

Open world isn't necessarily the issue (though it certainly suffered from the very typical open-world bloat). Xenoblade was just bad because it had really really awful gameplay. I hated the combat system, I hated the awful side-quests, I hated the horrid UI, I hated that tacked on, terrible crafting system. I also didn't like the character designs at all, their personalities were extremely bland as well, and the story didn't even grab me (it might get better later, hell I have the patience to enjoy Trails, but I was utterly bored by Xenoblade). The only things I liked about it was the environmental art, and the soundtrack.

If you want a FF type game, you're probably going to have to look at that very series to deliver it.
[...]
If you're looking for Final Fantasy in your Xenoblade, you're going to be disappointed. No duh.

Huh? Are you contradicting yourself here?

 

[Pyrrhus]

If you're looking for Final Fantasy in your Xenoblade, you're going to be disappointed. No duh.

I don't know. Didn't Monolithsoft start with refugees from Squaresoft? And then get a bunch more from what used to be Sacnoth/Nautilus/feelplus, another band of Squaresoft alums? Given the pedigree, expecting a little Final Fantasy in there seems reasonable enough.

 

[Red Frost]

*sigh*

Is it really that hard to understand why some people don't like handheld gaming vs console/PC gaming, and why they lament the near-disappearance of an entire genre (or at least the lack of quality) from consoles/PC?

It's definitely fair to lament the loss of the genre on the big screen, but you kind of have to follow where the market goes if you want to keep being a fan of the genre. It sucks, but that's how it is, and not everyone is capable of it.

I know someone said "The Last of Us" etc. but to actually answer this question from a JRPG perspective, here would be JRPGs I consider to have good writing or at least a good, enjoyable story and characters (sometimes the writing itself is iffy due to a weak translation, especially the older the game is):

S-tier
- Panzer Dragoon Saga
- Final Fantasy Tactics
- Suikoden II
- Shining Force III

A-tier
- Xenogears
- Tactics Ogre *
- Breath of Fire III
- Trails in the Sky FC/SC
- Final Fantasy VI
- Suikoden III and V

B-tier
- Wild ARMs
- Suikoden I
- Final Fantasy VII
- Vandal Hearts
- Phantasy Star IV
- Chrono Trigger
- Skies of Arcadia *
- Jeanne d'Arc

F-tier of Supreme Awfulness
- Final Fantasy VIII

* Never finished it, so this is a tentative ranking ^^

Play Mother 3 if you want SSS tier writing.

 

[RedSwirl]

What I'm skimming in this thread is kind of confirming my suspicion: that there are still good JRPGs -- probably as many as there were in the "good old days" in proportion to the overall market. It's just that without a successful Final Fantasy to be the standard-bearer of the whole genre, every individual game is left to sort of survive on its own and get's overlooked as a result.

 

[Cyrano]

2. Developers following the anime trend. I assume back in the early to late 90s, anime was new and featured a lot of mech and less cutesy stuff compared to nowadays?

3. People growing up and have higher expectations when it comes to story and gameplay.

They're following the anime trend in the sense that videogames, like anime, are pretty ouroboric.

People grew up but games definitely didn't. Movies had about a thirty year lag time (in the sense that it took about thirty years for people to actively realize their potential, by doing things only film could do, rather than just recording or reinventing stage plays). If videogames follow a similar timeline, we should theoretically be in a "golden age" for videogames at the moment.

But maybe videogames are more culturally or technologically bound and they may never really coalesce in the way movies did. They certainly have the financing to be something more but it's never just about money when it comes to societal relevance.

 

[Lindsay]

What are anime rpgs? I take it this isn't meant to refer to rpgs based on animes right, so can't we get a better term for this? Many anime were based on manga. Many tropes can be traced back to those or even live action series like sentai or even soaps. I know its cool to crap on anime but as a catch all term in this instance its kinda a copout.

It's funny how people always talk about JRPGs being crap nowadays by comparing mediocre and forgettable games like Rogue Galaxy to masterpieces like Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger. It's so disingenuous.

Never played Rogue Galaxy but if that games bad then the comparison to FF6 & CT isn't negative to me cause I didn't enjoy those games! I dunno in which way they're supposed ta be masterpieces but its not in the playability department thats for sures.

Unpausing and pausing throughout the day, sure, that's not too good. Maybe it doesn't lend itself to 10 minute sessions the way a puzzle game might. But 20-40 minute sessions while I'm going somewhere (public transport/someone else driving)? Being able to pull it out during lunch and play it? Yeah, you can play quite a bit in that time.

And sometimes, you can't find time to put hours into a game, or when you're at home, you have other stuff that you might do instead (whereas while you're traveling, you have less you might do). I find it really disorientating to come back to an RPG if I haven't played it for a while, so yeah, playing an rpg in 10 minute sessions sounds terrible, but if I can play it for hours one day but won't get a chance to do so again for a while, those 20-40 minute sessions are going let me keep it going, rather than stop and come back confused.

And yeah, sometimes you pick the game up, and you have to reorient yourself. But with portables, the time you're away can be alot less, so that effect is so much less drastic

Ya it really seems like it depends on each persons situation an how they game in general. I've very rarely put down an rpg for so long that I was lost coming back to it. I can see 10 minutes here an there at lunch being some good lil grinding time but with how I get into grinding sometimes I'd find it hard to just stop an so wouldn't pick the game up at such a time. As for playing on public transportation I could start DQ7 on the bus ride home from picking it up... but I dun got headphones so I'd prolly miss alot of good opening audio. Plus it takes focus ta get sucked into a game world on such a small screen and buses are loud an travelling in general kinda hard to mute outside distractions. Would kinda hamper first impressions of just about any game but on a second playthrough or just random general downtime in-game it may be something I could give a try!

 

[redcrayon]

I don't know. Didn't Monolithsoft start with refugees from Squaresoft? And then get a bunch more from what used to be Sacnoth/Nautilus/feelplus, another band of Squaresoft alums? Given the pedigree, expecting a little Final Fantasy in there seems reasonable enough.

I think the FF in Xenoblade for me is in the grand fantastical ideas (the world is two dead gods locked in combat) and the mix of technology and the organic.

I'm not disagreeing with any criticism of it though, I couldn't finish it (or Xenoblade X either), the games were just a touch too big/too long for me and I lost interest. But I do applaud the epic nature of the games and the vision behind them rather than continually focusing inwards on the emotional trauma of JRPG party members that has been explored to death. Give me alien worlds any day.

 

[Red Frost]

Ooof. Not sure I want to take your opinion on writing seriously after this. I mean, it's true that the games you listed have poor writing (Dragon's Dogma wasn't that bad, mind, but not very good either, though I don't really consider it a JRPG either), but 999 has absolutely awful writing.

Did you finish it, or did you just stop after 1 ending?

 

[Dark_castle]

FFIX is modern?

With the enhancement that comes with the PC port, it's about as modern as games like Trails in the Sky and Bravely Default and I Am Setsuna.