guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
I don't understand what ripped sound files have to do with running arbitrary code.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
NES, SNES, GEN and GBA Emulator Made on the UWP (Xbox Support) Now in Certification
- Thread starter dancrane212
- Start date
I don't understand what ripped sound files have to do with running arbitrary code.
The sound files are code, the player is an emulator.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
Aren't sound files sound files? I'm clearly missing something here. How is playing a sound file the same as running code?
Edit: Anyway I said in my original comment there are emulators on the App Store now. They usually use pre-packed ROMs to prevent them from running arbitrary code. I suppose decoding sound files from ROMs (is that right?) is far enough away from arbitrary code to get passed as well.
KojiKnight
Member
To play SPC (snes music rips) files you have to emulate the SPC chip found in the SNES, just as one example.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
Right, but that's not running arbitrary code though. The output is only ever sound never an arbitrary program specified by the user.
The sound files are ripped from the games but they're not mp3s or anything. So an NES sound file (.nsf) is literal code that a player emulates the NES sound chip (Ricoh RP2A03) to play. Some apps even have support for expansion chips like VRC6/7, MMC5, N163, FME7 or the extra sound channels in the FDS. It's not a recording of the audio, it's reading and playing the code as your console would.
KojiKnight
Member
I don't think you understand... These aren't MIDIs, these aren't WAVs... It's not sheet music, it's not simply recorded samples that are played back... SPC files are literally RAM dumps of the SPC's memory and require an actual (or emulated) SPC chip to read the code and play back the the 'arbitrary code'.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
I said from the beginning there are emulators on the App Store now under certain circumstances. I think we all understand they are no programs to load and run full programs allowed like this program on the Xbox One would be. I guess the audio only emulators get by but there aren't any programs running full programs on the App Store. If someone submits an audio only emulator to the Xbox One that would be a different topic I guess.
Just want to make a few things clear; creating emulators is not illegal, distributing emulators is not illegal, creating ROMS/ISOs is not illegal but the distribution of ROMS/ISOs IS illegal, unless that game is becomes public. As long the emulator is not using code someone else's code, no company can legally stop this from happening.
If I remember correctly from my days following the emu scene, most of Nintendo's old games eventually became public domain UNTIL they introduced the virtual console.
In this particular case nobody is distributing roms and the devs are operating under the assumption that you own these games and dumped the roms yourself. So they're not doing anything wrong.
This all boils down to whether MS (like Google) has the balls to add it to their store and leave the rest between Nintendo and the devs.
Emulators have been on windows store for years and MS has never had an issue with them being there. Hell, im posting this from a Windows phone right now with about 4 emulators on it that I downloaded way before windows 8.1 came out.
If I remember correctly from my days following the emu scene, most of Nintendo's old games eventually became public domain UNTIL they introduced the virtual console.
In this particular case nobody is distributing roms and the devs are operating under the assumption that you own these games and dumped the roms yourself. So they're not doing anything wrong.
This all boils down to whether MS (like Google) has the balls to add it to their store and leave the rest between Nintendo and the devs.
Emulators have been on windows store for years and MS has never had an issue with them being there. Hell, im posting this from a Windows phone right now with about 4 emulators on it that I downloaded way before windows 8.1 came out.
The first nsf player released on the Appstore in 2010 iirc, I don't believe there's been any change in policy.
LordRaptor
Member
Is there any way to distribute apps other than distributing the source files? Last I heard there was not. I doubt MS will allow sideloading apps even in dev mode, it's just for installing apps that you have the source code for.
Worth noting that UWP apps on Xbox One currently get 1gb of ram, up to 4 CPU cores and 45% of the GPU. They don't have access to the full system resources.
Yes. You could just generate an .appx package. You could then give that package to someone else, and then they could install it on their Xbox using the Windows Device Portal.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
My point was the Appstore doesn't take down emulators because of copyright or to please Nintendo. The audio emulators seem to only be proving my point really. I said from the beginning they have emulators on the store but they limit ones that can run full arbitrary code. Like for example the emulator we're discussing right now. It's interesting there are sound emulators on the app store, that's really cool and I'm glad they allow them but I'm not sure why it's relevant when we're discussing a full emulator running an entire arbitrary program.
Edit: I actually think they might approve it, they have allowed similar programs on WinRT and Windows Phone which are closed platforms like the Xbox One.
I don't believe I've once made the claim that Nintendo would have any LEGAL recourse against the emulators. In fact, I've stated the exact opposite multiple times in this thread. I'm only describing with Nintendo (or any other publisher) could find one platform worth attempting to pull emulators from, compared to others where it's essential pointless to do so due to the platform's nature.
This wouldn't be a case of making a legal claim. It'd simply be a case of Nintendo, Capcom, Sega etc calling up MS one day and being like "yea, so that emulator is kinda fucking with our retro releases", and MS would like oblige due to it (or a different emulator on a different console) having the potential to do the very same to their IP (such as Rare Replay).
Yea, I'm aware of this, but it's something the average user will never do, and is an inconvenience as the console doesn't function as usual in this mode. A user is going to want their console in "real" at basically all times, as other games and apps cease to function in developer mode. It's not really a jailbreak scenario.
Chû Totoro
Member
I know all this. It's just that I'm amazed how many people seem to have these at their place
And sadly owning something once doesn't mean you can have it forever... buy a movie on Netflix... yeah it's not ok to rip it to play it at your friend's place.
It's not a bait, I'm not here to blame anyone or to ask for money in the name of Nintendo. It's just something that shouldn't be that obscure in the industry.
I'd be more than happy to see emulators being a real thing (like even Nintendo selling them) but for now it's just a mess and it's not for the best like this.
It makes people believe "old" things has no value, it makes people believe an emulator is no hard work and it makes other people going for piracy.
Don't forget that for the most part Gaffers are very well informed people so most in this thread know all this. You all love games, you're all here to support the industry and I'm sure a lot will even have NES Mini Classic too lol but I'm not sure there is a vision we all share regarding the practices around ROM and Emulators (like Homebrew since they are often related).
So yeah... just me getting bored seeing GAF not having a clear stance about this (or maybe I missed something) but since it wasn't the topic you both were right to answer like this and others were right to ignore my post too...
Sorry, I make stupid posts sometime and even if in some threads I don't care I thing emulator / homebrew GAF is a great community so even if it's an interesting discussion it has to take place somewhere else (and probably had been done so many times without something everyone was agree on).
Please go on people ^^
LordRaptor
Member
Chû Totoro;216123313 said:
I mean, emulation is 100% legal, there's no real dispute there.
People "format shifting" games is basically down to personal ethics;
Do I think it's fine to download a ROM for a game I still own on an old cartridge? Sure. And some people will disagree with me on this, based on me not ripping it myself.
Do I think it's fine to download a ROM for a game I used to own but sold off years ago? No, not really, but some people will say sure.
Do I think it's fine to download a ROM for a game I've never owned, but that is unavailable new from the original manufacturer and is only available for extortionately marked up 'collector' prices? No, not really, but some people will say sure.
Do I think it's fine to download a ROM for a game I've never owned, and is currently available for sale by the original manufacturer in a digital format? No, I don't see how that's any different from piracy, but you're still going to find people who are going to rationalise how its not somehow.
e:
replace "ROM" and "Cartridge" with "ISO" and "Disk" accordingly based on the original format of the title in question
My memory is fuzzy on this so you're probably right.
That would be a system seller right there. At least for me.
Well that's not how the law works at all.
Ah, and people complain when nintendo put BS on their site when this is the type of stuffs the emu scene tells itself to sleep at night...
It's never legal to distribute ROMs/ISOs without permission unless you have the rights from the copyright holder.
The rights can (and will) change hands even if the company is defunct.
What is the difference really between trying to distribute a ROM/ISO that someone else own and distribute a game you made using someone else's property anyway?
Video games are not that special really.
You can buy a CD with music and rip the music and listen to it forever if you want.
You can buy said music directly from an online store too.
You can't however distribute music from an artist without his/her consent and you certainly can't create a piece of music and sell it as if it's famous group or something.
Same goes for movies, I can buy a VHS or a Dvd of the Simpsons and rip it to watch it on my Xbone or my ipad.
I can buy the same content from an online store.
I sure as hell can't download from the piratebay like it's all fine and dandy because I'm too lazy to get a copy or because I think Fox is being too greedy with the price of the boxed sets.
Incorrect. Several countries have either no copyright laws, or extremely lax copyright laws.
charlequin
Banned
But this is like thoroughly settled, extremely unambiguous law. Excitedly "just asking questions" about the idea of Nintendo leveraging their wealth to illicitly change that law through bad-faith litigation just makes you sound like a you have an agenda.
What people are explaining is that there's no technical difference here: both the full emulators and the audio emulators "run arbitrary code" on the level that's relevant for device security.
Yeah, online providers will try to align themselves on China's juridiction!
On top of that considering the state of trade agreements there's little chance this will be the case for long.
Not really. I'm just saying that corporations are typically risk averse, and Microsoft are not particularly incentivised to get into any disagreement with Nintendo over this (legal or otherwise). Even if it were to be a slam dunk were it to go to court, why on earth would MS want it to go that far? It's far more in their interest to quietly kill it.
LordRaptor
Member
There's almost zero chance you have any legal right to download anything thats copyrighted by someone else from the internet without their explicit written permission, but you also have almost zero chance of being stopped doing it, so..... yeah, it basically is.
Again the issue is absolutely not Nintendo for MSFT.
What about their partners like Capcom whose latest Megaman project is bascially undercut by this kind of efforts?
Sega who is certainly not shy in releasing and selling their backcatalog?
Then again it's MSFT, they're certainly known for not giving a shit about their partners and trying to burry them whenever they can.
Will Konami bother releasing a Castlevania Legacy Collection after this when it's known that one of their partners made sure that their products would be worth shit?
Altered Juice
Member
N64 emulator in publishing status.
http://reddit.com/r/xboxone/comment...w_when/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true
http://reddit.com/r/xboxone/comment...w_when/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true
lol Nintendo ain't shit!
https://i.reddituploads.com/00a7c5af8d11493abf6d20c9a50ff16c?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&
URI signature match failed?
charlequin
Banned
Microsoft has a huge incentive to fight back on this: it discourages other companies from extorting money from them with bullshit nuisance lawsuits. Microsoft has a very strong interest in not giving direct competitors leverage by capitulating on lawsuits their own lawyers will tell them are completely without merit.
But how about business partners (publishers)? Or that it devalues some of their IP similarly (stuff like Rare Replay, or the Ultra Editions of Killer Instinct, etc)? Nintendo isn't the only company that is effected by emulators, and potentially any console (including MS' own) could fall into the same scenario on any given platform. Does this seem like something worth MS fighting FOR?
LukasTaves
Member
But Scorpio coming, believe!
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Any word on if it plays F-Zero X + Expansion Kit?
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
I know, I never claimed the app store guidelines are consistent. Apple allows emulation if the output is only audio (Also in other cases too! Like with pre-packed ROMs like I mentioned in the original comment!) but do not allow emulation that runs full programs or ROMs from external locations or added to user storage like this emulator would on Xbox One. They choose to do this because they make their own rules for their store and Microsoft may do the same.
My point from the beginning was simply that Microsoft may deny this type of app on the Xbox One as a matter of policy rather than any copyright concern or to appease other companies. Thank you all for the education about audio emulators on the App Store but I suppose my original comment was unclear, I am aware the App Store policies can be arbitrary and inconsistent, that was in fact part of my point
Microsoft, like Apple, may simply choose to say apps that emulate the full functionality of ROMs are not allowed on the Xbox One. Yes, you are all correct to say that emulating audio can be considered 'arbitrary code' but surely you must consider there is a difference between emulating just the audio function and the full functionality of a video game console to enable running whatever ROM or program the user chooses on the device.
Honestly I hope they do approve it but we've yet to see if Microsoft is willing to deny certain UWP apps from just one platform for special reasons.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Watching for updates like a hawk.
I wanna get my 12,345th playthrough if Super Metroid completed on my X1 before this gets seen down.
Approve the fucking app already MS!!!!
I wanna get my 12,345th playthrough if Super Metroid completed on my X1 before this gets seen down.
Approve the fucking app already MS!!!!
Are there even Xbox emulators on pc? Nintendo needs to make a better virtual console service, better value and have GameCube games available.
Didn't see an update on this here so I just thought I would post:
https://twitter.com/nesboxcom/status/773964135398801408
https://twitter.com/nesboxcom/status/773964135398801408
Nah, no specifics.
Lucky Seven
Banned
Oh, now this is what my Xbox needed to get back on track. Totally playing some SNES games on this, if the audio perfect and emulation is decent.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
That's awesome. If the Xbox One can be a good emulation machine with just UWP apps that will be a pretty great feature.
CrazedProfessional
Member
There is no way this makes it. Zero chance. Microsoft better lawyer up.
Because emulators are illegal? No. They aren't.
Microsoft had better buckle up for allowing them on windows by your logic.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
Emulators are not illegal.
Edit: Still I'll feel more excited when I actually see someone download it off the store, haha.
RealityCheque
Banned
Get in!
Congrats Xboners, your console just became a whole lot more interesting.
Congrats Xboners, your console just became a whole lot more interesting.
It should be good with everything up to PSX (without Saturn and N64, of course).