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Ventura Beat: Nintendo Switch graphics are based on Nvidia's Maxwell Architecture

Most people already knew and had accepted it wouldn't be as powerful as PS4. It's been widely reported for months and months. I don't see how this article could surprise most people.

How would Pascal be in the Switch, be able to run cool, and be able to be sold for less than $300?

Like a lot of us have been trying to say, 16nm gives you more performance per watt meaning it would run cooler than 28nm/20nm and uses less material meaning it would be cheaper.

So it would be highly illogical for Nintendo to go with the more expensive, less efficient solution if the cheaper and more efficient one is available, which it has been for a while now.

Maxwell=/= 20nm or 28nm

Edit: and no one is surprised that it's weaker than the PS4, like you said everyone has known that for months.
 

EhoaVash

Member
Most people already knew and had accepted it wouldn't be as powerful as PS4. It's been widely reported for months and months. I don't see how this article could surprise most people.

How would Pascal be in the Switch, be able to run cool, and be able to be sold for less than $300?


Yeah the writing was all over the wall for this.for a long time..also.like some people in this thread are surprised/won't believe this? wtf are you people smoking thinking that this thing was going to be ps4 power lmao
 

Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
As a follow-up to the 3DS, it's more than a worth successor. I can just see all the HD sexiness of all those Pokemon, Monster Hunter and Layton games. Kid Icarus HD? As a follow-up to Wii U, taking the Gamepad out the house wont be good enough...at all.


I expect a far more capable machine than the Shield Tv/Tablet. It better be.
 
This means literally nothing to the general public. The 3DS was a dinosaur compared to Vita and the PS2 was a dinosaur compared to the original Xbox.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Right, but the context of my comment was that people were expecting Pascal to mean better graphics.

Look, I have a lot of doubts about the OP article, but I just can't follow this line of defending it if it's true.

Hypothetical Article - Switch uses Cortex A57 instead of A72 despite the latter being better in every characteristic, power draw, performance, and transistor budget

Defence - it's unlikely the A72 would have been used for higher performance because it's battery limited.


Well, thing is, being more efficient means you can turn up either performance, battery life, or both in various ratios. More efficient is of course always better given a fixed power budget.
 

ggx2ac

Member
That article in the OP is very long and has some odd and contradictory claims.

Those dev kits use a Tegra X1-based system. We understand that the final chip will be a custom version of the X1.

They referenced the Eurogamer article in the bolded.

They claim the Switch SoC will be a Custom TX1.

Or is it Semi-custom?

The semi-custom Nvidia Tegra processor in the machine is still powerful enough to play typical Nintendo cartoon-style games

A little frustrating that the article is poorly written.

Also from the article:

Nvidia has a new Tegra in the market in the Nvidia Drive PX 2 platform, which it describes as a processor for self-driving cars. This system has two code-named Parker chips in it. One Parker chip has a combination of six CPU cores (2 from the Denver design, four ARM v8 A57 designs) and 256 graphics cores based on the Pascal architecture. A single Parker chip is a pretty powerful machine, capable of doing 4K video and high-end graphics. But our understanding is that Parker showed up too late for Nintendo’s purposes. Parker also would have to be redesigned for mobile, low-power constraints. But it gives you an idea of the challenges that both Nvidia and Nintendo had in hitting their targets for performance, size, and power consumption. This kind of chip could be available as a rev 2, much like Sony has done with the PlayStation Pro. But we don’t expect it to be there at the outset.

We've seen the design of Parker from Hot Chips in August, it was most likely finished in design a long time ago seeing as Project Xavier was announced shortly afterwards in September.

Parker is a Tegra SoC and there's nothing stopping it from being customised for other applications as even the Nvidia CEO said Parker could be used for VR applications and gaming during Hot Chips.

Edit: and then they state Parker could be used for a revision of the Switch? What?
 

orioto

Good Art™
Like a lot of us have been trying to say, 16nm gives you more performance per watt meaning it would run cooler than 28nm/20nm and uses less material meaning it would be cheaper.

So it would be highly illogical for Nintendo to go with the more expensive, less efficient solution if the cheaper and more efficient one is available, which it has been for a while now.

Maxwell=/= 20nm or 28nm

Yes that's what i don't get neither. What's would be the reason for that move..
Except if they could have a super low price for that particular tech with Nvidia ?
 
Most people already knew and had accepted it wouldn't be as powerful as PS4. It's been widely reported for months and months. I don't see how this article could surprise most people.

How would Pascal be in the Switch, be able to run cool, and be able to be sold for less than $300?

Using 16nm makes it produce more heat? Logic!
 
Anyone thinking Nintendo is going to reveal specs at the January reveal is delusional

This is going to be one of those cases where we won't know what's in it until places like Anandtech and Ars rip open a retail unit.

The specs are not even close to other consoles and likely even a high end iPad so why would they reveal them?
 
This system is not 9th Generation guys this is still 8th Gen. Why are you expecting 4k gaming on a tablet? I think you need to evaluate your expectations down alot if you are hyping yourself thinking its going to play next gen games at 4k res. Im sure most games will run but it just wont be full 1080p. Also that screen only is a 720p screen so.....its only gonna going to run 720p.

Who is expecting 4K? What's preventing 1080p when docked? Just because it has a 720p screen?
 

Ryoku

Member
Maxwell? That's fine. There's no way this thing will be 28nm, especially if it's around 1TFLOPS of performance. 20nm is dead, so 16nm... Oh wait, that's essentially Pascal.

Naming differences aside, I don't expect 1TFLOPS of performance from this thing. My optimistic measurement has been ~768GFLOPS (32-bit) but we will see.
 

Instro

Member
Yes, but it's also highly unlikely that Nintendo would philosophically approve of a dramatic difference in performance between the docked and portable experiences; that would belie the concept of the device. All it realistically needs is a bump from 720p to 1080p when docked, and Pascal isn't required for that.

Additional power isn't required to drive 1080p?
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
At this point so close to the full reveal rumors like this are a lot of sound and fury that isn't at all useful. Especially when it's not very concrete or definitive.

I'll wait till Jan 12 to see what cards Nintendo has play and maybe we'll get more definitive answers from them, or at least more reliable and detailed info from insiders.
 

Ryoku

Member
Who is expecting 4K? What's preventing 1080p when docked? Just because it has a 720p screen?

I don't know about that guy, but 4k output isn't exactly difficult in this day and age. 4k gaming for this device, however, is like trying to beat a Nissan GTR in a race with a Toyota Prius.
 
That's my guess, Nvidia gave a good deal.

What could the good deal be which favors the more expensive, outdated tech over the newer, cheaper and more efficient tech? We know these are custom chips so nVidia didn't have them lying around. Would they charge less for licensing a 20nm process for some reason?
 
Most people already knew and had accepted it wouldn't be as powerful as PS4. It's been widely reported for months and months. I don't see how this article could surprise most people.

How would Pascal be in the Switch, be able to run cool, and be able to be sold for less than $300?

Pascal is more energy efficient than Maxwell so I don't see what running cool has anything to do with it
 
I have a few immediate thoughts after reading through the article:


  • Firstly, it's worth noting the difference between Maxwell and Pascal is almost entirely down to the manufacturing process. Maxwell was made on 28nm (and in the case of the TX1, 20nm) whereas Pascal is made on 16nm. The actual architectural difference between the two is minimal, and aside from improved color buffer compression, largely irrelevant for a device like the Switch.
  • Despite that, the article never makes any mention of the manufacturing process. I find that extremely strange, as it's obviously the defining difference between the two sets of GPUs.
  • In fact, the article gets the difference between the two completely the wrong way around, saying "Nintendo’s box is relatively small, and so it has to fit into the heat profile of a portable device, rather than a set-top box. That’s another reason that explains the older Maxwell technology, as opposed to the Pascal’s state-of-the-art tech." Pascal is literally a more power efficient version of Maxwell, so the incentive would be the other way around.
  • The author says "we expect the Nintendo Switch to be more than 1 teraflop in performance", which is notably higher than even those of us who were expecting Pascal were considering (I literally posted earlier today with a 500-750 Gflop estimate). If this is a Maxwell chip, then that would mean at least 4 SMs (512 "CUDA cores") at 1GHz, as they're not going to be able to push much past that on 28/20nm. This is a much larger GPU than most people would have been expecting.
I see a few different scenarios here:


  1. The Switch SoC uses Maxwell at 20nm, and simply has a much larger GPU than anticipated to account for the performance.
  2. Nintendo looked at the feature-set planned for Pascal when design started, realised that the new features were largely irrelevant, and decided that they would save time and just use a straight-forward die shrink of Maxwell to 16nm instead. That would technically be a Maxwell GPU, but would be almost completely indistinguishable from Pascal in terms of performance.
  3. The sources are wrong about Maxwell, the 1 Tflop performance, or both.
Basically, if you're to take the article as being accurate, then the only worthwhile takeaway is this quote:



A Maxwell Tflop is identical to a Pascal Tflop, and it's largely irrelevant to us whether they achieved that by using a larger Maxwell GPU on 20nm/28nm at a lower clock or a smaller Pascal GPU on 16nm at a higher clock.
Thank you for this. You always make things easier to understand while cutting through the bull.
 

ar4757

Member
The gaf cycle

I'm in for the Switch no matter what. It's my 3ds successor with the bonus of being a console

And Zelda
 

Atheerios

Member
This system is not 9th Generation guys this is still 8th Gen. Why are you expecting 4k gaming on a tablet? I think you need to evaluate your expectations down alot if you are hyping yourself thinking its going to play next gen games at 4k res. Im sure most games will run but it just wont be full 1080p. Also that screen only is a 720p screen so.....its only gonna going to run 720p.

What? Switch is the first 9th gen console.

Just like 3DS was the first 8th gen console.

Power doesn't have anything to do with generations.
 
Just went back to read the article - they're clearly editing it. For instance the line "cartoony style games" has been replaced with "quality art over horsepower." I also don't see the comparison to the Xbone anymore, but admittedly I did skim it rather quickly.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
What could the good deal be which favors the more expensive, outdated tech over the newer, cheaper and more efficient tech? We know these are custom chips so nVidia didn't have them lying around. Would they charge less for licensing a 20nm process for some reason?

I honestly have no clue.

It does make sense to go Pascal, and I'm out of logical reason to figure it out why. Maybe even that old Nvidia rumor could have truth about giving Nintendo a big deal for their stuff, I dunno. The information we have doesn't give us enough of anything to figure out why.
 

Vena

Member
Just went back to read the article - they're clearly editing it. For instance the line "cartoony style games" has been replaced with "quality art over horsepower." I also don't see the comparison to the Xbone anymore, but admittedly I did skim it rather quickly.

Article in flux!
 

Buggy Loop

Member
Maxwell? That's fine. There's no way this thing will be 28nm, especially if it's around 1TFLOPS of performance. 20nm is dead, so 16nm... Oh wait, that's essentially Pascal.

Naming differences aside, I don't expect 1TFLOPS of performance from this thing. My optimistic measurement has been ~768GFLOPS (32-bit) but we will see.

That's the cute thing about this thread. The original article is so full of shit. We went from speculations in the dev-kit thread of a 500~750GFLOPS on a 16nm pascal soc for retail kit, and this guy comes with 1TFLOPs on an architecture that is known for its 28nm process ? Nobody will make a chip going into a mobile platform with 28nm, like you said, and 20nm, well both AMD and Nvidia dropped research in that process for the more promising FinFet.

A 16nmFF Maxwell... is pretty much considered a new architecture by that point. Maybe it's Nvidia "custom" tegra as they refer.
 
This has to be shock hyperbole right? I don't buy that this many people on here ever thought this was going to be outputting the same quality of graphics as a PS4. And 4K too? Come on lol.
 

Vic

Please help me with my bad english
It now specifies a custom Maxwell Tegra that uses a 20nm process

I bet they made these changes based on Thraktor's post lol
Two sources (who asked to keep their names out of this story) confirmed to GamesBeat that the Switch uses Nvidia’s last-generation Maxwell graphics-processing architecture. Nvidia introduced its new Pascal architecture earlier this year, but that technology is not ready for the Tegra chip going into the Switch. The custom Maxwell Tegra (which uses a 20nm process as opposed to the more efficient 16nm process of the Pascal) in the machine is still powerful enough to play Nintendo-style games that rely on quality art over horsepower, but don’t expect Switch software to match the graphical fidelity of the highest-end PS4 games.
Did he went back and confirmed with his sources?
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
People freak out about the darnedest things :l

The architecture of this machine generally goes over the heads of many people. They hear 'new pascal architecture' and automatically think anything else is worse and the end of the world.

Nintendo could go with maxwell and go with a 16nm process node. They could go with a 28nm process node as well just like how they went with 45nm process node for Wii U right as 28nm was coming fully into prominence...but let me say this..

Absolutely none of that junk matters as long as the console does what its supposed to, play great games and play them well.

Regardless of whether the architecture of the GPU is maxwell or pascal, 16nm, 20nm, 28nm or what have you, this machine is going to run circles around the Wii U and be infinitely closer to the FHD twins than any NIntendo machine before this. That means great support if Nintendo plays their cards right.

The price matters the most out of anything
 

ggx2ac

Member
It now specifies a custom Maxwell Tegra that uses a 20nm process

I bet they made these changes based on Thraktor's post lol

It's a bust! The article so poorly written that they are going into damage control.

If they don't provide reasons why Nintendo would be using a 20nm process when 16nmFF is much better to manufacture more chips per wafer and to reduce power consumption than this article should be taken with a lot of salt until we can find out more from elsewhere than can corroborate info.

What's especially bad is that we still know nothing about the CPU or RAM either, it's always been about the GPU...
 

Polygonal_Sprite

Gold Member
Just went back to read the article - they're clearly editing it. For instance the line "cartoony style games" has been replaced with "quality art over horsepower." I also don't see the comparison to the Xbone anymore, but admittedly I did skim it rather quickly.

Holy shit lol !
 
It now specifies a custom Maxwell Tegra that uses a 20nm process

I bet they made these changes based on Thraktor's post lol

Yeah someone there reads Gaf haha... Though it still claims 1TFlop and compares it to Scorpio's 6 and PS4's 1.8.


I'm gonna ignore this article now until someone else starts verifying it. It's too nonsensical and contradictory of itself as it is now. If they do more edits it might make more sense tomorrow.
 
Just went back to read the article - they're clearly editing it. For instance the line "cartoony style games" has been replaced with "quality art over horsepower." I also don't see the comparison to the Xbone anymore, but admittedly I did skim it rather quickly.
It now specifies a custom Maxwell Tegra that uses a 20nm process

I bet they made these changes based on Thraktor's post lol


oh lol
 
If this is true then what the FUCK is Nintendo doing.

Why would you use a older architechure when Pascal is right there. Only thing I can think is cost but the loss in power and espically efficency is going to be huge.
 

Xenoblade

Member
This means literally nothing to the general public. The 3DS was a dinosaur compared to Vita and the PS2 was a dinosaur compared to the original Xbox.

I agree. Let's look at the two examples you mentioned. The 3DS was released 11 months before the Vita, was cheaper by the time time the Vita launched, and didn't require expensive memory cards. The PS2 compared to the Xbox was similar. It released 17 months earlier and was US$100 cheaper than the Xbox by the time it released in March 2002.

It's clear that the general public cares more about value for money more than anything. The price of the Switch will determine whether it lives or dies, not the architecture.
 
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