Support NeoGAF

[DiipuSurotu]

Apparently Exist Archive.

Exist Archive. It's a RPG by Tri-Ace that was released last year on the PS4/Vita.

Thanks!

 

[Crossing Eden]

I like the heels. Makes me think of flamenco dancers.

I feel they actually emphasize her sense of balance and poise.

Contrast with 9S who is a lot less graceful and even a little clumsy.

This animation difference could still be conveyed without the high heels as I noted above.

 

[Gestault]

all I know is that this thread and the many of its ilk makes me glad some of you aren't the ones dictating where the industry goes.

holy shit

Criticism, things like discussing the quality of different character designs, has nothing to do with "dictating" to creators or the broader publishing industry. All this conversation is in the context of "people sharing their reactions to art." There's no threat, no "knife in-hand" to these words. Bad designs will be called bad. People can, will and should disagree.

If you're frustrated or upset by people doing that, but can't formulate why you feel differently, then griping about the people who want to discuss it is disruptive.

 

[Haly]

This animation difference could still be conveyed without the high heels as I noted above.

But the heels raise the animations. Ballroom dancing wouldn't be the same in heavy boots, even if boots would be a lot easier to dance in.

And this is tangential but Yoshida doesn't have a boot fetish, he has very pronounced and distinctive leg fetish.

Particularly around the ankles and calves.

 

[Com Truise]

High heels is something that I'll never understand. Do people really find that sexy? Whenever I play a game with a girl in high heels I can only think "man her feets must hurt badly". Honestly they look really bad to me, and that's including in real life too, not just games.

What exactly do you not understand about the concept of accentuating tits and ass? People find that sexy, yes. There is no footwear in existence that is more self-explaining than high heels and you are somehow confused...

 

[thumb]

When my point is automatically invalidated because its "heterosexual nonsense" it demonstrates to me that the person I am engaging with is only looking to shame me into agreeing with them, not have a discussion. Obviously sexy female designs have a target audience of heterosexual males. Thats OK, nothing wrong with that. I'm not going to let someone else tell me what is ok to find attractive regardless of what minority group they come from. I'm all for equal representation in games too. You'll never see me complain about something like hot Ryu or Adam and Eve in Nier Automata. I wish there was more representation in games but its certainly not going to stop me from enjoying what I find sexy, and nobody is going to make me feel ashamed for it.

What's your actual point though? Help me understand. You don't think showing skin is automatically bad? Great, I suspect we're all in agreement. Showing lots of skin is not *automatically* a bad choice, but it is one aspect of how women are typically objectified or highly sexualized in games. But I agree that, by itself and divorced of context, it is not intrinsically bad.

You want people to acknowledge the existence of a market that enjoys such designs? Done.

You're not going to let people tell you what to find attractive? Putting aside the fact that this is a thread to discuss bad character design, people can't make you find something personally attractive via argument, so it's nothing worth taking a stand over.

 

[Mik317]

Criticism, things like discussing the quality of different character designs, has nothing to do with "dictating" to creators or the broader publishing industry. All this conversation is in the context of "people sharing their reactions to art." There's no threat, no "knife in-hand" to these words. Bad designs will be called bad. People can, will and should disagree.

If you're frustrated or upset by people doing that, but can't formulate why you feel differently, then griping about the people who want to discuss it is disruptive.

i'm sorry but I will never see calling people names as valid criticism (passive aggressively or not). there are a lot of actual poorly designed designs in here but they are stuck between ones that people know will get people riled up. Too often people make it abotu more than just not liking a thing. That's great and fine but when it gets to "if you like this then you must be a SJW cuckboy or an ALT right shitlord" is when it moves beyond simple "criticism".

Criticism by the way is not done just for kicks....you criticize something then you must want it to change. Thats how it works..whether or not you have the power to do so is immaterial really. But again, you are more than free to dislike a thing fopr whatever reason, I am not God...i just feel like the often holier than thou attitudes of some (not all) in here gets in the way of any actual discussion. Like lets be real, what actual discussion is going on in these threads beyond the same ole back and forths that honestly lead nowhere?

sprry for the derail as I mainly lurk nowadays but still one would think people would get that approaching this issue this way doesn't do anything as neither side is capable of actually discussing a damn thing.

 

[thumb]

i'm sorry but I will never see calling people names as valid criticism (passive aggressively or not). there are a lot of actual poorly designed designs in here but they are stuck between ones that people know will get people riled up

Would that include passive aggressively insulting thread participants by celebrating their lack of influence on the industry? If you have something to say, engage. Otherwise, there's no reason to comment.

 

[Adaren]

2B's heels are absurd in the best possible way. Watching her slide around in those things never gets old.

Honestly, I'm willing to accept a lot of designs if they're done with some self-awareness and humor. It's for that reason that I like the Dragon's Crown Sorceress design. The absurdity makes it creative and fun, and it would actually be more problematic for me if the Sorceress had a more conventionally "sexy" design.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

I'll post this one both in this thread and the other because the concept is so absurd that I still have to make up my mind whether it's brilliant or silly:

I think this is a very good design.

 

[theangrypirate]

What's your actual point though? Help me understand. You don't think showing skin is automatically bad? Great, I suspect we're all in agreement. Showing lots of skin is not *automatically* a bad choice, but it is one aspect of how women are typically objectified or highly sexualized in games. But I agree that, by itself and divorced of context, it is not intrinsically bad.

You want people to acknowledge the existence of a market that enjoys such designs? Done.

You're not going to let people tell you what to find attractive? Putting aside the fact that this is a thread to discuss bad character design, people can't make you find something personally attractive via argument, so it's nothing worth taking a stand over.

I was originally replying to this:

Originally Posted by Crossing Eden

You're saying this as if male writers creating story reasons for sexualized outfits for women isn't in and of itself an incredibly common and problematic trope.

And I replied

I don't see a problem with it. Men are genetically wired to like looking at sexy ladies, nothing problematic or shameful about that.

And I was attacked for using "heterosexual nonsense" as an argument and it's devolved to this. I stand by my original statement saying there is nothing problematic or shameful about designers pandering to heterosexual male tastes. It would be great if there were more pandering to minorities but its not going to preclude me from enjoying things that are not. I don't try and tell minorities what they should be able to enjoy and I would appreciate the same respect.

 

[BRocknRolla]

Bland, boring, generic, grey, uninspired, uncreative, unattractive, non-feminine, terrible.

Gotta be a troll post.

 

[thumb]

I stand by my original statement saying there is nothing problematic or shameful about designers pandering to heterosexual male tastes. It would be great if there were more pandering to minorities but its not going to preclude me from enjoying things that are not.

Does "pandering to minorities" include "not pandering to heterosexual males with excessively sexualized female characters"? I just want to know what you include in that category. In other words, is less pandering to you automatically more pandering to someone else?

I don't try and tell minorities what they should be able to enjoy and I would appreciate the same respect.

Do you respond similarly to negative movie reviews you disagree with? That is, would you tell the reviewer that they shouldn't tell you what to enjoy? Or would that strike you as absurd?

 

[Crossing Eden]

But the heels raise the animations. Ballroom dancing wouldn't be the same in heavy boots, even if boots would be a lot easier to dance in.

Hence boots, her dancing resembles gymnast movements, (with an extra dose of strip pole dancing) moreso than ballroom dancing.

And this is tangential but Yoshida doesn't have a boot fetish, he has very pronounced and distinctive leg fetish.


Particularly around the ankles and calves.

You're right i'm speaking as if 2B's design is required to have fetishistic legwear.

 

[Gestault]

i'm sorry but I will never see calling people names as valid criticism (passive aggressively or not). there are a lot of actual poorly designed designs in here but they are stuck between ones that people know will get people riled up. Too often people make it abotu more than just not liking a thing. That's great and fine but when it gets to "if you like this then you must be a SJW cuckboy or an ALT right shitlord" is when it moves beyond simple "criticism".

Criticism by the way is not done just for kicks....you criticize something then you must want it to change. Thats how it works..whether or not you have the power to do so is immaterial really. But again, you are more than free to dislike a thing fopr whatever reason, I am not God...i just feel like the often holier than thou attitudes of some (not all) in here gets in the way of any actual discussion. Like lets be real, what actual discussion is going on in these threads beyond the same ole back and forths that honestly lead nowhere?

sprry for the derail as I mainly lurk nowadays but still one would think people would get that approaching this issue this way doesn't do anything as neither side is capable of actually discussing a damn thing.

I think you're imagining an argument in your head that isn't happening here. If someone is outright name-calling, report them. If someone's saying something preposterous, call it out. If you like a design someone else hates, explain why. If you think a design is dumb, bring it up.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hence boots, her dancing resembles gymnast movements, (with an extra dose of strip pole dancing) moreso than ballroom dancing.


You're right i'm speaking as if 2B's design is required to have fetishistic legwear.

It's certainly not required, and I would prefer if she didn't, but her heels have their own appeal.

 

[Haly]

Hence boots, her dancing resembles gymnast movements, (with an extra dose of strip pole dancing) moreso than ballroom dancing.

I really don't understand your obsession with practicality. It's just all consuming. I have never seen you approach an aesthetics debate from anything other than the lens of real world logic.

Also you know strip pole dancers (not that I agree with characterizing 2B's movement as strip pole dancing) wear heels as part of their costuming right?

 

[DylanEno]

I like the heels. Makes me think of flamenco dancers.

I feel they actually emphasize her sense of balance and poise.

Contrast with 9S who is a lot less graceful and even a little clumsy.

I love 2B's design way more now omg

 

[poodaddy]

Me too, I've always been a fan. I like sexy female characters sometimes, but as a straight woman, my idea of sexy is obviously different to a man's (in many cases anyway), and I find a lot of examples in this thread over the top and tacky. But I don't count 2B among them.

My personal view,

Yennefer is the sexiest character ever made, I have a serious girl crush on her, its a good mix of design and personality. I just love her.

I just want to proudly declare here that I concur with your assessment of Yennefer. I also want to note that my wife looks strikingly similar to her. Basically the spitting image other than her eyes, my wife's are smaller and a bit more sultry. Alright sorry for the bragging lol.

OT: I think the truly worst female character design I've ever seen is honestly Laura from SFV. Just tasteless weaboo design.

 

[Haly]

I love 2B's design way more now omg

If you search for SunhiLegend in this thread you can find more of his gifs (which are the ones I used).
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1346120

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's certainly not required, and I would prefer if she didn't, but her heels have their own appeal.

It's pretty transparently festishitic.

I really don't understand your obsession with practicality. It's just all consuming. I have never seen you approach an aesthetics debate from anything other than the lens of real world logic.

That's how I design characters since the most popular designs are the ones that make the most sense and I feel that leads to better characterization than just thinking "I like big titties, my audience might like big titties, so big titties, substitute ass for titties.". :| Most artists do the same. Making the designs fit in context.

Also you know strip pole dancers (not that I agree with characterizing 2B's movement as strip pole dancing) wear heels as part of their costuming right?

Oh don't be mistaken, they definitely used stripper reference. Specifically with the pole weapons....:

I'm not saying it's a good thing, only that it's a thing that undermines the game, what about 2B's personality or story would make her learn how to or even do this?

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Oh don't be mistaken, they definitely used stripper reference. Specifically with the pole weapons....:

I'm not saying it's a good thing, only that it's a thing that undermines the game, what about 2B would make her do this?

I ain't never seen a stripper do that on a pole before. I think this stripper reference is all in your mind

 

[prag16]

I expect a lot of crossover with the "best female character design" thread

Yep.

Also if you remove all the nominees that are here chiefly because the designs are seen as sexist, we would barely have a topic.

Not saying various designs are NOT sexist, but a discussion of bad designs for bad designs sake would be more interesting. e.g. I don't think Quiet is an objectively bad design if we remove Kojima's raging hard-on from consideration. Things like people's explanations for why they think the new Lara Croft is a bad design (despite being less "sexy" than any older iteration) are far more interesting imo.

 

[BrianRoyale]

I have to say when I saw Cindey from FF15, I thought it was hilarious. It's strictly for personal reasons. I had a friend who worked at a gas station way way back, some mom and pop style place. There was a small mechanics shop, and the dude there, name was Sparky, he never wore a shirt. Any time weather permitted it, he had the top of his jumpsuit off/down, and anytime any halfway decent looking lady would be there he'd be at her car asking if she needed anything. So usually you'd see this Sparky guy just walking around with no top on, hitting on women and not doing his job. For some reason when I saw Cindey in FF 15, I thought of Sparky. Funny times.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I ain't never seen a stripper do that on a pole before. I think this stripper reference is all in your mind

It's not. Reference doesn't mean "exact copy" from my experience but obviously, I don't think ballroom dancing is what they hand in mind. But rather gymnastics and strip pole dancing couple with anime stylization.

 

[Mik317]

I think you're imagining an argument in your head that isn't happening here. If someone is outright name-calling, report them. If someone's saying something preposterous, call it out. If you like a design someone else hates, explain why. If you think a design is dumb, bring it up.

fair enough. But I do feel like some often villify people for it as an attempt to make them not liking a thing better...it just bugs me.

Yeah, Kamitani made it pretty clear that he's just a childish dumbass and it all made sense. Because of course, the only way that as a man you can be bothered by sexy female designs is by being gay, also being gay is funny and bad, and thus perfect as an insult.

We really shouldn't boil down every mistake that man makes as an attempt at trolling, especially when it's the culmination of a clear downward spiral of sexism.

Like sometimes a design is the way it is simply because the designer thought it looks cool...all of these need to make it make sense or the idea that there is some evil intent behind it is silly. Kamitani isn't a childish dumbass because he likes cheesecake designs (especially based off of a translated interview) nor is Kojima is a sexist jerk because of Quiet and the shame for your words and deeds tweet...They are both straight men who like sexy women. I just think people often make it out to be worse than it really is in the end.

but that is just me...

 

[cuate]

heh

totally not a movement strictly made to showcase her ass /s

 

[Fuchsdh]

I tend to agree with people about NuLara. If they didn't want her running around in hot pants they could have still updated the classic design and kept her far more recognizable. Admittedly I haven't finished ROTTR but my sense from all the old games wasn't that the universe was supposed to be some exceptionally grounded, realistic world where everyone must look like you could find them on the street. Lara wasn't an everywoman.

(And the designers still spent forever deciding how sexy or attractive they wanted her to look.)

 

[ModBot]

I think we're pretty much done here.

 

[theangrypirate]

Does "pandering to minorities" include "not pandering to heterosexual males with excessively sexualized female characters"? I just want to know what you include in that category. In other words, is less pandering to you automatically more pandering to someone else?

I enjoy lots of games without overly sexualized characters. Sexiness is not an indicator of a games quality. No, less pandering to me doesn't necessarily mean more to another group. I don't think BotW is pandering to anyone (besides Nintendo fans).

Do you respond similarly to negative movie reviews you disagree with? That is, would you tell the reviewer that they shouldn't tell you what to enjoy? Or would that strike you as absurd?

No, I don't really read movie reviews though. I respond negatively to people telling me personally that I am a problem because I like something that doesn't appeal to their tastes.